050 - The Alchemy of Storytelling with Sinéad McDevitt

No human is a brand. We are living, breathing, messy, beautiful, emotional, spiritual human beings with with feelings and emotions and experiences and relationships. And we are not you are not a brand. Richie Meldrum, the brand Strategist, and I'm gonna paraphrase, I'm gonna get it wrong, but I really loved how he defined brand. A brand is the sum total of all the perceptions and associations other people have about you and the work that you do. Hello.

Hello, and welcome to The Values Proposition, a podcast for entrepreneurs, creators, and leaders who strive to build values driven brands. My name is CJ Cruz. Pronouns.

He.

They and I live in Austin, Texas.

And I'm Hank Paul. My pronouns are they, them, and I live in Sydney, Australia. Each episode, we'll chat about topics that matter in your business, work, identity, and well being to empower you, to lead with your values and go beyond the bottom line.

So go ahead and hit that subscribe button and let's dive in.

Hello, wonderful listeners of Pod Land. Welcome to another episode of the Values Proposition. I'm so excited to introduce our guest today, who is also my neighbor. So today's interview will be with Sinead McDevitt, who is a writer and director with a background in design. So we talk to her about all things to do with personal storytelling and her journey to finding, writing, and directing as a passion, as well as she's got a lot of expertise in this branding and design space. So we kind of unpack a little bit about that too. So dig in. She's a great storyteller, as you are about to find out.

Hence, she does this for a living. Really excited to dive on in. So let's go. Hello, CJ.

Hi, Hank.

What's going on?

Happy pride still as.

Yes. We got to milk it for all it's worth.

Every day, every month, every year.

I'm excited today because we're doing an interview with one of my favorite humans. I don't know if she knows that, but she is. And she's also my downstairs neighbor. Please welcome to the pod sinead McDevitt. Welcome.

Thanks very much, guys. Thanks for having me. This is very exciting. Wow. We're doing a podcast in the same block.

Are you in the same room or are you like, upstairs? Downstairs?

We share a bed. It's tough time.

Inflation, right?

You got to do what you got to do.

The machinations of our apartment block is that there's kind of two buildings and I'm at the top of one and Sinead's at the bottom of the other. But we can still make eye contact through our windows if we try. Or maybe not eye contact, but we talked about remember when we talked about, like, setting up a little can what do you call that little can speaker system. And that we could talk to each other just with a rope in between our apartments or something like that?

Yeah, that was during the covertimes. We're all going a little bit crazy.

Yeah. So, Sinead, a brief introduction for who you are and why you're on the podcast. So welcome to the Values proposition. You are an acclaimed director and you created an incredible TV show which we may talk about, and you are also an expert in all things design and branding. So where you and I kind of intersect as well is we both really love having you were over for dinner a couple of weeks ago and we're just, like, chatting about our passion for being ethical and our values in our business. And that's kind of what we like to talk about on this podcast, too. So it just felt so obvious to bring you on and have a chat. But maybe if you want to just bring us up to speed with who you are, what you do, and what you're passionate about.

Who I am, what I do and what I'm passionate about. Wow. Great question.

These questions weren't written on the free screen questions. I'm so sorry.

Last night, think about well, I'm currently passionate about Black Mirror, but that's a side note. So who I am, what I do. Well, I am a writer director with a background in design. And, yeah, I come from the world of having worked with a lot of design companies who would be experts in that field of building brand identities for individuals and companies and so on, whether that's products or services. And a number of years ago, I moved into film, which is what I do now, mostly. But invariably my work is informed by my past life as a designer, both aesthetically, visually, in terms of composition and all that kind of stuff, color and so on, but also in how I think, how I problem solve. There's a lot of problem solving in design and building brand identities and so on. That kind of flow over.

So, yeah, originally, as you can tell from the accent, originally from Dublin and now in Sydney and loving it and having a great time. And, yeah, that transition into film for me was kind of like one of those key moments in life that I'm forever grateful for, I guess. And I suppose it's just expanded how I feel I can be of service and help people. Using storytelling. That's the thing I'm probably most passionate about. Using storytelling to help us feel, actually help us feel the feels in a world where we so often run from our feelings and or we're not aware of them or we might numb them, whether that's a laugh or a cry or anything in between. I think storytelling has that beautiful power to freeze, to melt us, to freeze, to unfreeze to unfreeze those feelings. Definitely.

Hopefully not to freeze you.

We got the picture. It's beautiful. I love the way that you illustrate that. Okay, so much to dive into. We are going to talk about your journey from design to directing we're going to talk about storytelling, but before we do, what was your first job?

My first job was in a news agency in Rahini, where I grew up. Yeah.

Wow.

A lady in the choir that my mom sang in got loads of kids of the women in the choir to work in her news agents. So that was when I was in school. Yeah. I must have only been about 16, and I loved it. Just every Saturday and Sunday, because you get to meet the characters in the Village, the same guy would come in and order his John Player Blue, and they'd all come over to the news agents after mass as well. You just have the chats and get to know people. I absolutely loved it. Yeah, that's brilliant.

You're selling, like, magazines and newspapers and cigarettes and stuff.

What are you selling? Well, cigarettes and sweets and biscuits and milk and all the rest. All the usual, yeah. Trying to think of casting my mind back just to you'd have the rack of magazines. There's always the dodgy magazines down the bottom, and you'd have the guys coming in and kind of shirking around for ages, and you're like, Here we go, just buy the magazine. But why did I go to the most the darkest example? Should I.

Wonder how that would happen today?

This is like your origin story, right? It's like yes, I suppose, linking it to the story.

The same thing happened. I worked in a video store as well. Same thing happened as well. The section of the video store where these guys would just kind of hover around for ages early in the morning over there?

I don't know.

Yeah. What are they doing over there? But I don't know about you guys, I loved those little first jobs I had in school. Worked in a nursing home as well, for a couple of years.

Did you? Oh, my goodness. Absolutely loved that. I worked in an ice cream shop when I was a teenager, and I didn't at the time know it, but now I know. I'm like, that was such a cushy job because you had no responsibility. It was just so cruisey. And at the time, it's like, oh, this is so stressful. But I guess that's a point. You get that job and you expand your capacity, you figure out what you can and can't take on, and you kind of just work your way up the rank for the rest of your life.

But yeah, I'm like, sometimes I think.

Are you the sprinkles person? You just like, extra sprinkles.

Our ice cream shop was actually like a specialty ice cream shop, so I don't know if we had sprinkles per se, but we would make concretes. And so you'd get your ice cream and then all your mix ins, and we'd blend it all together. So it was nothing like on top. I mean, sometimes you put things on top enough about enough about ice cream and news agents. So Sinead, at 16, you're selling newspapers and then you eventually find yourself in design and branding in school.

I loved school and I loved all I was a super geek, super nerd, but I gravitated most towards kind of art and language and so on. So I went off to NCAD, the National College of Art and Design in Dublin, and did my four year bachelor there in Visual Communications after having done a year of fine art. So painting, sculpture, metalwork and so on. But what I loved about Visual Communications, aka, I suppose, graphic design, was that you could use art to help people tell a story. Again. Keeps coming back to tell a story, doesn't it? I always love the idea of sitting down with someone and kind of going, okay, tell me what it is that you need to say and what is it that you do, and how can we come up with a really fantastic way of communicating that often in a single image, in in a photograph, in an illustration, in a poster, whatever an album covers and so on. I just loved that challenge of distilling a message down to its essence. And, yeah, I got hooked, I guess, and left NCAD and worked at a company called Image now that's still around in Dublin.

They do great work. And then two pals of mine said to me, come on, we'll go off traveling. Let's hit the road. And I was like, okay, where are you thinking? Southeast Asia, New Zealand. Australia was the plan. So got on the plane with them and off we went and we had an amazing adventure, three month adventure, and we went Southeast Asia first, then Australia, then New Zealand. And when I was in New Zealand, there was something, something in me was just like, go back to Australia for a little bit, there's something there. And I was surprised by that because I never saw myself traveling to Australia, really.

I mean, we all loved Home and Away. We all grew up with Home and Away in Ireland and the UK.

Wait, can I ask sorry to interrupt. CJ do you know what Home and Away is?

No. Is this one of those games where it's like, ask if the American what they think home it away is?

So, Australia, we don't have many entertainment exports that cause any kind of cultural significance, but we've got two soap operas that people in Ireland and the United Kingdom, obviously, that are just like huge things over there. And these soap operas, Home and Away and Neighbors, and they've been running for 40 years or however long, they just keep going. But they canceled Neighbors and then have just brought it back, or bringing it back as well. So, yeah, they are one of our big content exports, I suppose. So that's what Shanae is talking about when she says Home and Away.

I feel like it's like days of Our Lives in the US.

It would be the equivalent. I think there's an appeal of especially home, in a way. Like, it leans into Sydney beach culture, like summer beach culture, and so it probably exports really well to that part of the world where you don't have that landscape, that weather, that culture. I'm assuming sinead 100%.

It's lashing rain outside and you're freezing and you're just looking at what is it called? Summer Bay. Summer Bay.

Summer Bay.

Raining. Also, there was this incredible queer storyline, like when I was super young. There was Mandy, the English teacher. I can't remember her name, her student, played by ayla fisher.

Wow.

I was just like, oh, my God. I was mildly obsessed with Mandy, the English teacher, which is probably my early awakening. But thank you, home and Away, for that. Thank you, home and away. It just stayed.

It was like a first crush.

Yeah, it's kind of wrong, actually, looking back in it, because Mandy was her teacher.

Yeah, that doesn't feel right these days.

It's so wrong. But she was yeah, she's incredible. Can't remember the name of the actress.

Anyway, okay, you were just traveling in Australia and you stayed or you go back and then come back?

Oh, right, yes. When I was in New Zealand, I applied for a visa. Right. And my two friends thought I was nuts because I didn't know anyone in Australia at the time. I had no plan, really, so I decided I'm just going to do it anyway. So they went back to Ireland. Well, one of them actually went to Australia and stayed for a wee while with her aunt. And I checked into a hostel in Sydney with 20 other backpackers in a dorm, and I had my portfolio with me.

So I was like, I'm just going to see if I can get a job in design here. Let's just give it a crack. I'll give myself a couple of weeks. So every single day I'd leave the hostel and I'd pan the pavement. And mainly I was targeting this one particular designer who showed a studio in London and opened it up in Sydney, who I loved. And I used to fly to London a lot when I lived in Dublin to kind of see him talk and speak about design. So I thought, I'm just going to target him. And he just kept saying, no opening schneid.

Leave me alone, leave me alone. And I'm like, but you need me. And he just kept saying, no, go away. So two weeks later, I'm sitting in Central Station with a cup of coffee. I've got my return flight in my backpack and I'm like, oh, well, nothing ventured, nothing gained, and feeling a bit sorry for myself. And I heard this voice I remember clearly. It was rush hour, people were milling all around, as you do in Central Station, in that little cafe that's still there, actually, on Eddie avenue. And I heard this voice say, Sinead, and I literally was like, what?

Who knows me?

Who knows me? Is that you, God? And it turned around, and it was a girl called Alicia Kelly, who I went to NCID within Dublin, who I shared a desk with, and just the most beautiful person. I couldn't have been more happy to see her. I was like, Alicia, what are you doing here? And she's like, what are you doing here? I said, Well, I'm going back to Dublin. It hasn't worked out. And she goes, don't be stupid. Come on over. I'll cook you dinner. So I was like, okay.

So went over and arrived into an apartment that was a two bedroom apartment that had probably about 20 backpackers from England, Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand, all over. People were sleeping on the balcony. One guy said, oh, my God. Yeah, I know. It was mattresses. It was not. And she's like, welcome. Welcome to my place.

Yeah, this is my math. Long story short, I moved in there to the Sardine Tin Can apartment.

If it wasn't crammed enough.

One of the girls was leaving. So Alicia said, do you want the girls room? Because they they had one room that had two single beds, and that's the girls room ensuite and everywhere else. So, anyway, moved in, got my first freelance job with that guy, my hero, which is great. And then suddenly I'm kind of in this flow. Do you know those times in life where you just carried in a flow?

Yeah.

Met a beautiful Australian woman who I fell in love with, and she with me, and so on. And that's kind of where my story goes to the next chapter, I suppose.

Yeah. Okay.

You are so great at storytelling, with the imagery.

The little noise. I'm actually australian. That's terrible. Sorry.

You just think you'll get more appeal just by having an Irish accent.

Yeah.

I sometimes think that on this podcast, I'm like, maybe if I keep doing this with Hankin up, I'll pick up an Australian accent and then I'll have that.

I don't think you'll ever be able to do that. CJ, the times that you've attempted.

It'S.

Quite unfortunate hearing you try. You fell in love with a woman. Now, feel free to go as deep or as shallow as you need in that part of your story. But I'm curious. You say that opens up the next chapter of your life. And so in my mind, I'm like, all right, well, how do we become a writer and filmmaker and director? Where does the idea of that kind of come from? I'm freelancing in this design studio.

You become a writer director from that chapter by getting dumped by that woman. Yay. I look back at it now with humor and gratitude. Genuinely, I do. But at the time, it was plot, really? Full on. Yeah. Plot twist. Plot twist.

Like, you met him happily.

This way. Okay, yes. So want to find your calling in life, fall in love with someone, get engaged and get dumped. But that's essentially what happened. Yeah, we were together for a long time. How do I summarize this? I was on holidays in Ireland, came back to Sydney and to a pitch black apartment, essentially key in the door and no one home. And it was very confusing. And she arrived in a little bit later that night and just said, it's not working.

And it was really devastating because we had built up so much at the time and we're planning a family and so on, and we're brainstorming the names of our future children and she had met my family and all that kind of stuff. So there was a lot you know, like one of my one of my biggest dreams has always been to oh, God, the risk of sounding a bit Oprah Winfrey, but to love really well and to love others really well, including myself. And I see that as a great success in life, to love and to be loved, really. And so for me, I was really proud of this relationship, I think, and proud of where we'd come from and journeys we'd been through and so on. But anyway, I digress a bit. So, yeah, she said not working, and in essence, in the greatest, potentially one of the greatest punchlines of my life ran off with the captain of the roller derby team, which is so gay, but so good.

You know what? I just watched my first roller derby event this past weekend in Austin. I did. It was wild. Yeah, it was really fun.

Did you enjoy it?

I did. It was just like a completely different world from anything like I've seen, because to understand, I had to like Wikipedia, how are things scored? Because you just sit there and then they're just going around in circles and people are trying to go past other people and then shoving other people, and you're like, what is happening?

Yeah, it was beautiful. It is, yeah. I mean, I'm a bit troubled by so thanks for that. Moving on simply brings people together and so on.

So the love of your life runs off with the captain of the roller derby team and and then you go, great, I need to change everything about my life. I'm having an existential cris. Let me find something else.

Yeah, side note, she's now married to that said person and they're really happy. Genuinely, I'm really happy for them. And I met her a few years ago for beers and it was all good. So I don't want there to be people feeling, oh, ger, and so on, but back then it was really, really a profound grief. So to answer your question, Hank, it was kind of like in stages. So I was thrown into this kind of level of grief that I'd never dealt with before. Having lost a very deep love. And I didn't really know my arse for my elbow.

My sister flew over from Ireland and fed me for two weeks just to get me through, wash my clothes and so on. But I drew the curtains and kind of didn't really know how to move forward. And then a friend of mine called up and said, we're bringing you off to the countryside. You're not arguing with us. You're coming with us. So she picked me up in her car and a gang of others, and we went off this beautiful mountain cabin where there was no Internet, no phone reception, just purest, most beautiful air and just hills forever and these wild kangaroo running up. And it was stunning. And a spa bath overlooking the hills.

I mean, it was a bit lost on me because I was just crying into the bacon on my plate. So slipped the bacon, but it did help a little bit. On the second morning, we went horse riding. We went to the stables and all my friends got given these stunning, like, golden looking stallions and black beauties and these beautiful horses. And I just got given this horse that looked like it had been through a few things, basically a manifestation of my inner being, of my inner state at the time. And we did what should have been this beautiful track through the mountains, but the whole time I'm just like, oh. And the horse is like, yeah, man, I feel you. I want to get back and watch the footy.

Come on, let's go. Half an ear. So we trotted around and got back, but when we got back to the stables, all my friends paid the lady for the horse riding, right? And I was the last. And so I had the cash in my hand and I went up to her and I overheard a radio show on, and I said to her that's Life matters. I love that show. She goes, oh, yeah. My daughter was actually just interviewed on it. It's a show that basically interviews people, a lot of people, about their life story and amazing and sad things and so on that have happened to them.

But in ours.

Cry over bacon.

Crying over bacon. That's a great idea.

That's like what this segment is now called, just crying over bacon.

Crying over bacon and on a horse and in the spa bath. So the lady said, unprompted, the lady said, yeah. My daughter was obsessed with horses her whole childhood and would ride her horse every hour of the God given day with her best friend from the farm over. And they were so obsessed. Their dream was to represent Australia in equestrian, right, in the Olympics. So the Olympic Council or Committee, whatever you call them, came and auditioned the girls. Not auditioned. I always get that word wrong.

What's it called when you audition your horse?

I don't know. Try this scout scouting them. Try. Okay.

So the friend got in, got accepted to represent Australia in the Olympics. That's incredible. And she got rejected, and she was really devastated. And she took to her room, drew the curtains, didn't want to come out, and went into a depression, really. And to help, a friend of hers gave her a pair of decks to play with because she knew she was really into music and said, Maybe this will help. So she kind of reluctantly started playing with the decks, and it turned out she really enjoyed it. And the friend came over one day and said, hey, I've got my graduate show. My fashion graduate show is on.

Would you mind doing the music first for the fashion show? And she was like, well, okay, but I haven't left this room in X number of weeks. Whatever. So she did. And in the audience was a scout from La. A producer. And that producer asked her to do the same for a show in La. Like this is from now obscurity to La. And from that show in La.

Another one. Another one. And now she's this world famous DJ. Her name's Anna Lono. You can look her up. And the woman I'm listening to this. And the woman took my hand with the cash in it. She doesn't know me from a crow.

And she just looked into my eyes and she said, sometimes the worst thing that can ever happen to you can turn into the best thing. And I was like, who sent you? Who are you? And I was like, wow. Okay. And something in me just went, this is a very weird moment. And I gave her the money and just kind of stumbled slowly back up to the car where it was parked. And as I walked back up to the car, I started thinking of this worst thing to best thing I need to get out of this state I'm in. I know I do, but I have no idea how to overcome it. So alchemy.

The word alchemy kept coming to mind, and I was like, what does that mean? And this voice inside me said, Use your story or use storytelling to heal yourself. And I was like, okay. Is that a magazine? Is that a book? Do I write an article? I was like, no. What is it? Is it like therapy? No. Well, that's helpful too. It's a film, something around filmmaking. And I'd never made a film before in my life. And I was kind of like, this is very strange.

You know, this feeling that I was drawn to tell a story in film somehow. So I got back to Sydney and started researching stories of what I call alchemists, people who'd gone through an adversity and turned it into something beautiful. Wow. It was really, at that time, to give myself a template for how to get through this thing that had happened to me, really, actually. And maybe in the making of it. I'll heal my heart a bit and help others. So I found the story of a guy who lost his left testicle. I thought that's for me.

And so I made my first film, as you do. I made my first film, Ballsy. Lost a testicle. Gruesome. Balls was the one liner Ballsy film. Toured the film Festival circus, got invited to Sheffield Dock Fest to present the film and to pitch a series that I came up with around this idea of Alchemy and Tribeca Film Festival, picked it up for a digital hackathon thing. And suddenly I'm in this world of film that I never imagined I'd find myself in. And in the process of making that film, my first film, it did work like therapy.

I cried, I laughed, I got terrified because I'd never done it before, the creative process. But Ben is the name of the guy, ben Peacock, who set up Australia's first ethical ad agency. He was the guy whose story I told. And so being immersed in Ben's story really helped and helped me. And so I discovered this, I suppose you could call it the Alchemy of storytelling. And in this process of making this first film, I was like, wow, I feel like it can really be of service here. And also, it brings me massive joy. I mean, that's the ultimate Ven diagram, isn't it? When you're of service and you're doing something that you really love.

Yeah. And if it can also make you money, we talk about that a lot on the podcast. If you can get all three of those things.

True. Yes. That in the money thing. That's true, actually. Yeah. No, absolutely. It has to be a sustainable model. There's no point.

That's a really good point, Hank, because I realized early on I made this film, by the way, after the Australian film, to be in Radio School, I went back to Uni to do it. I looked around at the world of film with that first film and I quickly realized I needed to find a way to make this a sustainable life for me. I don't call it a career, actually, because it's deeper for me than that. It's more like a calling. That doesn't sound too icky, but it is. It feels like it's a drive. It's a calling. It's something that I discovered and now I have to do it.

But okay, how can you make money from this? Because we had all these lecturers come into Uni and they had these incredible projects, social change and which huge impact. And at the end they would say, Any questions? And I was always the student to put up my hand and go, love your work. Oh, my God. Congratulations. Can you tell us how you make a living out of this? Excuse me for coughing. Sorry, I just got over COVID a couple of weeks ago and they all had different ways of answering that one. Very experienced documentary feature filmmaker, works as an Uber driver. Wow.

And he actually loves it because it gives him time to think and it means he's available at the drop of a hat for production meetings, which I learned very quickly as well, is very, very important. This is not a life where you can have a nine to five job and just kind of make the films you want to make kind of in your spare time. I mean, I'm sure there are people that do that. By the way. I saw models where having that flexibility was really, really important. And for me, coming from the world of design has been massively, massively helpful. Particularly in those early years, moving into film, being able to work on projects as well as design projects, as well as my film projects, has been brilliant. They've worked as really nice companions at.

A risk of, like, jumping the gun a little bit, and this is just because I know you and the work that you do so well. But one thing that I know is that in the work that you in the films that you make, in the stories that you tell, you're very passionate about telling diverse and inclusive stories. And I would see you as a champion in that space. Like, you go out of your way to prioritize telling diverse and inclusive stories. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit to that and why that matters to you. And also maybe for our listeners, like, how could they potentially incorporate more diverse and inclusive stories in their own branding or the work that they do?

Yeah, I think that's a really great question. And we hear it a lot, don't we, these days? Diversity and inclusion. Diversity and inclusion, certainly in film and TV. And it's really, really important that we're talking about it's. Absolutely brilliant. I mean, I have two main thoughts on that. The first is on screen and how should I put this in front of camera and behind camera representation is really, really important in my own line of work. So, you know, that maxim, if you can't see it, you can't be it.

It's really, really true. We only have to look at Little Mermaid, look at all those beautiful little girls around the world now running to watch this feature, and they can see themselves on screen. It's just incredible. It's so, so good and so heartening that it's happening more and more now. But practically speaking, I mean, in everything I do, I try and have that at the very forefront of my mind, for sure. Tyco Waititi spoke the other day about it's obviously important for him, too, but he gets really pissed off and it's tokenistic and it's inauthentic. And he's like, we have to do it in a way that is authentic. I mean, on screen representation I'm talking about, but also putting the stories in the hands of those groups, the lived experience side of things.

Equity and ownership of stories is really, really important. Sorry, but I digress a bit from my own point of view. I suppose, obviously, casting is really, really important. So whether it's a commercial or a music video or TV series or film or whatever, if it's not brought up in a production meeting, I'll always try and bring it up. There's a couple of casting agencies that are doing really great things here in Australia. Like, starting with Julius, represents people living with disability. Agent Black is another talent agency that represents First Nations people. And it's so great that these companies, these organizations exist.

And because to drive people to do more collaborations, that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Behind the camera, interestingly, is more tricky production teams. They're historically, traditionally very white and very nail identifying. And I tried to look for a gaffer and a grip recently. Gaffers are like the electricians of the sets and grips are like the engineers of the sets. Try to find one who was female. Identifying impossible. It's just like going through reams and reams and reams. So just trying to mix it up a bit and trying to go out there and find the gens and give opportunities and support, that is something I'm really, really passionate about.

My partner happens to live with disability. And I shot a commercial recently where there wasn't really any conversation around casting someone with disability on screen. It was set in this boardroom, and I brought it up and it's like, oh, we don't have time, whatever. So I suggested my partner, Yana, who happens to be doing more screen work anyway, and they said, Absolutely sure. So she was in it and with the wheelchair that she uses sometimes when she has dystonia. And that felt really good. That was one step in the right direction. Interestingly, in the green room, in the changing room, Yana was getting ready with the makeup and another one of the able bodied actors commented leaned over to her and commented, oh, so you're the token disabled person.

Yeah. You're the token disabled character. Yeah. And when Yana told me that later that night, I was like this kind of, like, frustration rose up inside me because it's part of the responsibility of the director to protect your actors, to protect your performers. And I felt bad that I couldn't protect my actor, my performer, who happened to be my partner in that moment. And look, the other person could have meant it as in Jest and Jana dealt with it with humor and batted it off. But I think that kind of points to a deeper conversation which needs to happen, which is around accessibility. And I think that applies to diversity and inclusion.

Whether that's people from, you know, different cultural backgrounds or different abilities how can we create safe spaces for people to access and just come together and do great work? Accessibility is accessibility. The proper definition of accessibility is the design of products and service and so on, that people living with disability can can access more readily. But I think it's deeper than that, and I think it's about creating safe spaces where they can for we I include myself in that as well, where we can just be ourselves, free from fear of prejudice and discrimination, just a kind of basic 101 working environment. Sinead Burke is an amazing disability activist, and she talks about she works with global brands such as Gucci and Louis Vuitton, and she says every time they have a meeting on branding projects, she always leads with the question, okay, how is this accessible? So I really love that thinking. Yeah, sorry.

I think it's really it's it's it's so it's been so interesting, I think, like, being in the industry for the last ten years and seeing the way that the conversation has shifted from a nice to have to now from the top down, it's kind of considered as a must have. We must be having these conversations around accessibility and inclusion, and we're not always getting it right. There's always ways that we can improve. And I think that the space for thought leadership and consulting is it's the perfect time for people to bring their expertise to this. But yeah, I think that, like, just society, I think, has shifted quite a lot in what used to be on the periphery is now generally accepted as being considered important and should be when you talk about coming into those production meetings, and if it doesn't get brought up, you'll bring it up. But when you bring it up, speak to your own experience. But in my experience, when you bring it up, it's not like, oh, why on earth would you bring that up? That's so irrelevant. The conversation is, oh, that's a really good point, we didn't think of that.

But it is important, and we acknowledge that it's important. And I think probably you mentioned before in that commercial where the production team said we don't have enough time. That's what needs to shift. It's not that they don't acknowledge it's important. What they don't acknowledge is that it's worth the time, it's worth putting in the energy to address.

Yeah, for sure. Having the conversation early on as possible, I think, is really, really key. And I think most people that I work with in the creative industry embrace this stuff with open arms. It's very unusual. Maybe it's the circles I'm in, but it's very unusual for people to be resistant to it's just it doesn't come to people's minds as the first thing because it's a very fast paced industry. We got to get stuff done. We got to get it done now. And so that's why building relationships outside of those projects is really, really important.

Finding people that you want to do great work, kindred spirits, as I call them, who happen to live with disability, who happen to be X-Y-Z-I think even as a female director, we're considered, like, a kind of a unique category. We talked to a creative director recently, and she said she asked her producers for a list of directors for this new commercial they wanted to produce. And the list that came back was, like, ten dudes. And she was like, Ten dudes. They're all great, and they're all great guys, and she knew a lot of them, and their work is fabulous. But she went back to them and said, can you just bring me back five and five, half, half? And they're like, what do you mean? She's like, I'd like to see some female directors on here. And to give them their credit, they actually had no problem doing it. They went off and they brought back the list, and it was like, oh, yeah, didn't think of it.

So it often doesn't come from a place of malice. Yeah.

And I think it's like, the importance of being brave enough to have those conversations, because it does take that ecosystem across all parts, and without that willingness to at least engage in the question and ask. Question just opens so much doors because then you're, like, thinking about, okay, accessibility. There's both visible and invisible disabilities. Like, people are neurodivergent. Like, are we considering how they're interacting with our work across the spectrum and thinking just broadly? It's great that brands are doing this more with more intention, but it's definitely a conversation that needs to penetrate to the graphers and grifters.

Before I actually met Yana, my partner, I didn't really understand what accessibility was. Like, what does that mean? Even so, I think the more conversations we have, the deeper the understanding we have, the better. But there's some really simple stuff we can do to point to the neurodiversity thing. There is, like, discover the principles of really basic good graphic design. So when you're creating promo materials, whether that's for Insta or for your website or whatever, the basic principles of really good design, which is, like, clean, clear to the point, doesn't only benefit folks with autism, autistic people, but it or neurodiverse people. It benefits all of us, but it is inclusive. Don't shove a lot of text on a page or on screens when you go to these conferences or presentations. It's overwhelming for people with neurodiversity or.

Even, like, one thing in marketing is, like, the contrast between fonts or what fonts do you use on a website to make sure it's readable across different devices, across different mediums? The contrast between different colors to make sure that somebody can see that there is a difference in the shade.

I love kind design. I think Kind Design is just the best. Put it on your Insta posts. Doing little descriptors of the picture, of the visual picture, is a really kind thing to do as well, and so on. So there's little easy, practical things we can do I'm guilty of forgetting to do it myself a lot of the time, but we do our best and.

Even captions, just putting captions on there.

Okay. You're a professional storyteller, Sinead, and we have been so lucky to hear just some of your fantastic and thrilling stories already. But what advice would you give to entrepreneurs and creatives and other business owners on how they can use storytelling themselves to stand out in a crowded market and establish their brand as unique?

That is a brilliant question, and it is made up of many, many parts, I'm hearing.

I was like, wow, I want to know this.

Yeah.

Like, the what is life question.

Yeah. What is the meaning of life? What's that the answer that they give.

42.

42?

Yeah. 42. Yeah. So my answer to you is 73. No. Okay. The first and the bottom.

Numbers must mean something.

I love the numbers three and seven. I don't know why, but anyway, me, too.

I actually really identify with those two numbers.

Yeah. They are sacred numbers. So that's a whole other different conversation, right? Yeah. So, look, be yourself. Everyone has taken have you heard of that phrase? Have you heard of that quote?

No, I love it. That's brilliant.

I've heard of it.

I've never heard of it. I could say I've just come off of that off the cuff.

We'll just attribute it to you until.

You go dash. Nate McDavid.

You've got a lot of good quotes just from our conversations, and I don't know if they're just, like, traditional Irish things, but I've just been laughing in my head when you said the bacon and then, like, the don't know me from a crow visual.

I haven't heard that one before either. Yeah.

Oh, really?

You mentioned that, like, when you were talking about, like, the the lady with the, you know, the horse in the barn. And the question, I was just like, that is a funny image in my head right now.

Right? There you go.

All right, friends, we're coming back on track. Coming back on track. How can business owners use storytelling to stand out?

73. No. Okay.

73.

Be yourself. Everyone has taken I love that. But look, I need to answer that, I suppose, in a few parts, I suppose, first of all, entrepreneur or creative? Solo creative. Ask yourself to begin with, why bother creating a brand for your work? Why bother, right? And I suppose coming from that world, myself, for me, the answer is, in all of its simplicity, it's for your work to be seen, to be supported, to be celebrated by the right people, by kindred. So you get to make great work. And I suppose, most importantly, that your secret sauce, the thing that you bring to the world, can be understood as well, can be seen really clearly that there's no confusion. I think, though, that the second part of that, though, is that is the B word. The brand word, the word branding.

That word has different meanings or perceptions for different people. So like top level you've got multinational companies like the Nikes and the Apples they have entire branding departments. They understand in this world and the system that we have built the importance of brand. They get it, they invest in it, heavily in it in terms of resourcing money and so on and it's just not a thing for them. But with small businesses and kind of solo folks unless you've actually worked in the area of design and building brand identities there can be a lot of confusion around it. To be honest, what is branding and a lot of fear. And I find that a lot of folks either run for the hills, they don't want to know anything about it, they'll reluctantly do undertake some branding work, or they'll find the cheapest quickest, like the cousin of your best mates, best pals, brothers, dogs, friend to do something for free or get a graphic designer on fivers. Throw a logo together.

So there's a lot of confusion and fear around it. And to be honest even myself I've struggled with the word brand. I've never liked it. It insinuates that it's this surface, superficial activity you do to kind of slather a glossy cover over the deeper stuff, when in fact, all of the projects I undertook as a graphic designer all the time was to actually dive deep and dig up the pearls. Dig up the essence of who you are, your work and what you do and find a way of telling that story. To be honest it gives me a bit of the ick. Brand gives me the ick. But I found a great great definition by a brand strategist called Richie Meldrum and he said I actually looked for it because I was getting really really pissed off with these experts saying you are a brand, you're a brand and you got to take care of your brand.

And that is no human is a brand. We are living, breathing, messy, beautiful, emotional, spiritual human beings with feelings and emotions and experiences and relationships and you are not a brand. Richie Meldrum the brand strategist and I'm going to paraphrase, I'm going to get it wrong but I really loved how he defined brand. A brand is the sum total of all the perceptions and associations other people have about you and the work that you do. So there's a great freedom in that because it means well, if a brand is the sum total of the associations perceptions other people have about me and my work, well, I can either leave that to chance and not worry about it or care about it or I can actually help shape that in the right direction. So that who I really am. And what I really do has a greater chance of being seen and heard and understood and celebrated so that I connect with other kindreds to make great work. And so in a lot of my work, I've helped do the latter.

If people want to and brands want to shape that those perceptions and associations the right way, it is possible. But there's not unfortunately, it's not like me saying it's 73. There's not a silver bullet. It's a process. And you'll find if you go to any branding agencies around the world, they all have their unique trademarked process for how to build a brand. In other words, how to shape these associations and perceptions in the right way. You'll have things like brand wheels. You'll have Simon Sinex, the golden circle, the why, how and the what.

You'll have Youngian archetypes. There's all these tools that you can use. But my best advice is, obviously, you can DIY it and do a deep dive into all of these tools. Or the ideal scenario is you collaborate with the brand storyteller or graphic designer who really, really knows the process from beginning, middle to end. And there's never an end. It's always ongoing. And I had my own process for years that I developed as I freelanced for years and years as a graphic designer before I moved into film called Discover. To still do it's a three step process to to really die for those pearls and and kind of and, you know, often step one is addressing the ick we have around brand.

You know, and there's there's been some really bad negative stories in the past around brand branding. The BP, I don't know if familiar with the BP logo that was done changed from British Petroleum to be on Petroleum, and they kind of rebranded this petroleum company as this eco friendly flower, this beautiful flower.

I remember this.

Then there was a deepwater oil spill, and people were like, it's just a whole lot of hogwash. And all these stories around companies who do greenwash or who do tell a story that's not really true to what they actually do, that is problematic. But to answer your question, Hank, the solos of the world and the small businesses of the world, if you go on the journey of shaping people's perceptions of associations about you in the right way, it can be a really fulfilling and fun and wonderful adventure. I loved, like, a lot of the projects I worked on. I really, really enjoyed it. Once I threw out the B word, the brand word, it's actually just about finding really interesting ways of telling stories. Yeah, that wasn't too wandery. And I went I went with you.

Yeah, I went with you too. I think people need to be wandery about it and go on their own journey because it's so unique. I'm so struck by what you said, that people aren't brands. Like people are people, and that they have lives, they have feelings, they have spirituality, they have all these other layers that it's like you're not just selling yourself, you are yourself. You are a person and that has really just stuck with me. We are so at time right now and I really want to respect that and I don't want to go over, but can you just, before we go, maybe just share with listeners? Like, if they want to connect with you, they want to maybe see some of your work? Where can people find you on the Internet?

My name so Sineadmackdevit.com.

Yeah, we'll have a link. We'll have a link in the show notes for that.

And insta. Of course think I'm Sinead McDevitt. I think it's at the Underscore. But, yeah, my Insta link is on my website and I try and keep both places updated.

And your work is so beautiful.

Oh, thank you so much.

I watch a couple of your videos and like, the ocean, for example. I don't know, it was just so mesmerizing, just how in just a few short minutes, you could tell a really beautiful story and I encourage our listeners to have the chance go and watch that and check out her other stuff. I appreciate your perspective and the way that you beautifully describe our lives and searching for those pearls and all of that. Very beautiful. Thank you. It was great meeting and getting to interview with you.

Yeah, thanks a million. You can have crying over bacon. You can have that for free.

Yes. That's a great album.

All right, well, thank you, friends. This was a joy.

Thanks for having me.

All right, we'll leave it there. Thanks, everyone. Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Values proposition. This was such a delightful conversation, as you, I hope, can gather. I had so much fun chatting with Sinead. We kind of have these conversations all the time, just one on one when we catch up. But it was so great to be able to share this with you.

Now, before we go, Shanade did not do the one thing that I was trying so hard to get her to do, which was to just spruke herself a little bit more. So you need to know that she does run a workshop called Special Source, and it's for solo professionals and creatives and people like me, people like you, hopefully, who need an antidote to branding ick, which you heard her talking about. It's kind of that allergy to the word brand and the feeling of being confused and not knowing what brand means. So what she's done, she's created this immersive workshop through what she calls the Alchemy method. You heard her dropping that term Alchemy all throughout our conversation. And it's about authentic brand storytelling through these three golden steps. So if you want to find out more about that, then she has told me to tell you to follow her on Instagram. That is where she's going to be dropping all of the knowledge around this workshop.

I think it's still yet to be released to the public, but if you are dying to know more, then you can DM her or otherwise wait for the full announcement. You'll be the first to hear about it on Instagram. All right, that's it from me. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. I'll see you in two weeks time. Bye bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Values Proposition podcast.

If you found value from this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast. You can also connect with us on social media. I'm everywhere at Cjocruise.

And I'm everywhere at Hankpaul Co. Catch you next time. Before we go, we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land that we are recording on. I'm speaking to you from the land of the Gadigal people of the IORA nation.

And I'm speaking to you from the land of the Tonkoa tribe.

We pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and we recognize a continuing connection to lands, waters and communities.