There's a law of physics that governs everything. Your happiness, your depression, and even whether your life has meaning. And guess what? It can't be broken.
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Genius Philosopher: The Law of Physics That Explains Why Your Life Falls Apart | Rebecca Goldstein
The INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast
Genius Philosopher: The Law of Physics That Explains Why Your Life Falls Apart | Rebecca Goldstein
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Brian Keating
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Rebecca Goldstein
BK
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Brian Keating
Rebecca Goldstein, a MacArthur genius, combines philosophy and physics to explore how the second law of thermodynamics explains human meaning, depression, and the resistance to entropy. She unravels the tragic implications of this law through stories of scientists and offers a profound theory on why we long to matter.
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“There's a law of physics that governs everything. Your happiness, your depression, and even whether your life has meaning. And guess what? It can't be broken.”
“She just used the second law of thermodynamics to explain while your life feels like it's always falling apart.”
“biological systems are really just organized to resist the second law of thermodynamics.”
“you've been haunted since your early days as an undergrad by the second law of thermodynamics”
“He did kind of die tragically young and of illnesses probably precipitated by some of his melancholia.”
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Life is a local violation of the law of entropy. It is a counter entropic resistance. The thing that the suicidally depressed people feel is that they don't matter. Others do, they don't. Nothing they can do will ever make them. This is how I judge people. Are you increasing entropy or are you decreasing it? These agents begin to have a longing to matter. If they do this, then what we have are non carbon based humans.
She's a MacArthur genius, a philosopher who's trained in physics, and she just used the second law of thermodynamics to explain while your life feels like it's always falling apart. What Rebecca did next is what no physicist has ever done before. She took the second law of thermodynamics and built an entire theory of human meaning on top of it.
What took you from MacArthur genius, your many, many works of philosophy, and your great contributions to literature from the genius grants, et cetera. To write a book that's basically a stealth physics book.
When I studied physics as an undergraduate, and then I had gone, when I went into philosophy, it was into philosophy of physics. So I've always been interested in physics. When I first learned about the second law of thermodynamics, I couldn't quite conceptualize it. I couldn't quite completely wrap my head around it. But it seemed to have implications for us, right? I mean, we are physical systems. We are subject to the second law of thermodynamics. There's a tragic dimension to this law, and that we live in resistance to it. All living things live in resistance.
In fact, when I was a graduate student, that occurred to me, oh, my gosh, biological systems are really just organized to resist the second law of thermodynamics. I said, this is so exciting. Has anybody discovered this? And then I read Schrodinger's what is Life? Other people had. In fact, Boltzmann himself had realized this at the laws of biology are substance biology's response to this supreme law that tells us that in closed systems entropy never decreases. And if there's any way for it to increase, it will. And what that entropy is, is the measure of the disorder of the system. The disorder is the more disorder, the higher the entropy, the less efficient work you get out of the system. And eventually the system will go to thermal equilibrium.
You'll be able to get no more energy out of it. It's somewhat the end of the system. And in fact, Rudolph Clausius, the 19th century physicist who formulated a concept of entropy, which means literally, transformation from within, there's poignancy in that. It's a transformation from within is going to the end of the system. And he had said, you know, that the universe itself go to thermal equilibrium, to what we call the heat death. And so there'll be no more energy to be gotten out of it. This sounds like a joke from Woody Alley. His mother brings him to a shrink because he's discovered that eventually the sun is going to go out.
He said, you know, how can I live? What's there to live for? You know, the sun is going to go out. And the mother says to the shrink, you know, I don't know why Alfie is so worried about it. It's not going out over Brooklyn.
It's in Annie hall, right?
Annie Hall. Yes, that's right. What do you care?
Brooklyn's not expanding, right?
Y that's what it was. It was expanding, right? That's right.
Classic. You studied physics as an undergraduate and you write in the book how you've been haunted since your early days as an undergrad by the second law of thermodynamics. So let's start with that story that you tell first about Ludwig Boltzmann, who solved one of the great paradoxes of physics, the irreversibility paradox. Talk about that. And then why did, in your mind, was he so traumatized, perhaps, or full of dread of his equation that he took his own life? So talk about that.
And this is really good because it really ties back to your previous question about the types of scientists, the different types of scientists, types in terms of their personality. And to me, the formative feature of personality is how you minister to this longing to matter. So there was this great paradox which is probably most of the processes that we observe are irreversible. If you film them, like, like, let's say I crack open an egg and I stir it up and then I fry it, and somebody filmed this and then they reversed the film. Anybody who sees the reversal of that film is going to know it was reversed. That cannot happen in nature. That it is going to uncook itself, unscramble. The yolk is going to separate from the albumen and jump into the shell and seal up.
Impossible, right? So almost, you know, everything that we. That we see is irreversible. What's going on. There is a matter of what's going on in the molecules that constitute this process. And if you filmed all of the motions of the molecules and then filmed in and then reversed the film. Perfectly, perfectly normal, you know, not contrary to nature at all. So how can that be? That the macroscopic state is just constituted by the microscopic state. On the microscopic state we find complete reversibility and on the macroscopic state, irreversibility.
It boggled the mind and it was called a paradox. And Boltzmann solved this problem. He really has only two premises here. That matter has constituents and that odor is much less probable than disorder. Those constituents can only be in a certain configuration. You can switch them around a little bit. When you have the egg cracked open with the yolk and the aluminum surrounding it, once you scramble it up, you can change. You can shuffle those part every which way and it's still going to look the same.
The features of the system are going to stay the same. Instead of otter going to disorder. You could talk about shuffleability. One of my physics professor had described it in terms of shuffleability. The more entropy there is, the more shuffle ability. You can change around the parts and you're still going to end up with the same system. There are just so many, many more by orders of magnitude, so many more ways of getting disorder than order in terms of the constituent states. This is the amazing thing.
So here is this real paradox, a real mind boggling paradox. All you need is the matter is made of constituent parts and the laws of probability, it's the laws of large numbers applied to micro states. And that's why it's the supreme law of physics. I think it was Eddington who at first called it that. But it's repeated by Einstein and by Stephen Hawking. But really all physicists, that is, we know it is never going to be falsified. All laws of nature are open to falsification. That's what makes them scientific laws, right?
They're provisional.
Well, it's always provisional. We're going to get more evidence. We're going to have to go back to the drawing boards. But this, and Einstein puts it very, very beautifully. And as does Eddington. If something doesn't agree with the second law of thermodynamics, too bad for your the give up. You are not going to get that Nobel Prize. Give it up.
In that sense, it's the supreme law of physics. Ludwig Boltzmann and he solved this amazing problem and get this, none of his peers accepted it because of bad philosophy. They were all in that day. It was Ernst Machine was it like a leading Austrian and he's great, great, great physicist, you know, but he was a positivist. He did not believe in molecules and atoms. If you couldn't observe it, it didn't exist. I would call positivism bad philosophy. That philosophy was sinking.
An amazing piece of scientific work that has proved so fruitful. The ramifications of this are all over, including. I want to make them even, you know, I want to draw even more consequences out of the law of.
Second, thermodynamics are beautifully. You say all tragedies are thermodynamic. You mention it in the context of his daughter Elsa finding her father's dead body. And it wasn't like he showed any sign. And we can't go into the minds of someone who dies by suicide.
Right.
But at the same time, you'd think that this would be a more common thing. And I guess my question to you is, why do some scientists kind of fall victim to even bad philosophy, whereas others. So I'm thinking of Ignaz Semmelweis, who you write about. And we had Matt Kaplan on from the Economist, who wrote a book basically about Semmelweis not being accepted, called I told you so. And event he didn't commit suicide. But. But he. He did kind of die tragically young and of illnesses probably precipitated by some of his melancholia.
He was in. In an asylum when he was. Yes, they tricked him into an asylum.
He was my friend Patty Carico invented MRNA COVID vaccine. She, you know, thrived despite even worse circumstances than people not believing her. They certainly didn't believe. They wanted to deport her. A postdoc threatened to deport her if she got another job. And yet she came back resilient as ever and won the Nobel Prize. So why do some scientists fall victim to. I mean, physicists love to make fun of philosophers.
You know that I'm sure.
I love to make fun of philosophers.
Well, tell me, why do some, you know, have. We sort of have arrogance or, you know, and then other times seem to fall prey to their. To their predations?
Why is that temperament plays such a large role in this? I was not a person who was raised to think big ideas. I wasn't raised to think at all. I was really raised to be a good Orthodox Jewish wife and mother. And my temperament didn't go that way. I could just feel this sort of something, you know, the restlessness, the intellectual restlessness and whatever Altman, he knew he had solved something incredibly important. He said, you know what? It must be wonderful to be a general leading great armies into the battle and great victories. But as for him, the only thing he wants to do is sit in a little room and solve big problems that will contribute to knowledge. Now, to contribute to knowledge means that other scientists must accept it.
He wanted to happen. What exactly did happen to him? Only post death, post mortem, which is that he would make science grow. He has made science grow amazingly. But he despaired that would ever happen. And he had a temperament. He might have been bipolar, you know, but so it hurt him so much. And towards the end of his life, I mean, he was really desperate and he committed such a sad, sad thing. And as you say, I mean, you know, that his teenage daughter found him is just.
It's such a tragedy. It was the day before he was supposed to return to teaching, and he was a beloved teacher. He had been a very funny teacher and very engaging, but he got more and more depressed. You know, creatures of matter who long to matter. You can only say that in English, but I'm so glad you could say that in English because it's, again, incredibly poignant. You know, we're creatures of matter who are subject to the laws of physics, including the second law of thermodynamics. But we long to matter. And so much of the book is trying to explain how that transformation from within, within us, in our species happens.
You know, that's a normative transformation, an ethical transformation. And it's really what distinguishes us, that we, in some sense, want to justify the fact that we matter so much to ourselves, that we pay so much attention to ourselves, and that we actually can pinpoint the place in human history where this emerged, during the period when all the religions emerged that are still extant, which is so interesting. And also Western philosophy emerged during the period of history that's called the Axial Age. And that's when we became these creatures who long to matter and who are searching for the right values to help us justify ourselves first and foremost. So I've been thinking about this forever, actually.
Yeah, you say it's the hardest book. It was the longest book, which is surprising with all your other, you know, just enormous contributions to literature. It's a beautifully printed and bound book. Prominent throughout it is this concept that you came up with, which is the maps of mattering. Talk us through the maps of mattering. What are the they and where do scientists, like my audience members, maybe, where do they find themselves?
I've noticed that there are four general strategies, and that's what I sketched out. This is like the four continents of the mattering. And I asked AI to help me with how big to make them, how the proportions of humanity are, how they split up. And AI was very, very helpful in this there. First of all, let's start with transcenders, what I call transcenders and transcenders, which we humanity has been for a long part of our history, up until, I guess we would say, the Enlightenment, we all sought our mattering religiously. We had the metaphysical premise that there is a transcendent presence in the universe, whether we call him God or something vaguer, and that this God made the universe, created something out of nothing, created the laws of nature and the moral utter within, and he created each one of us. You know, the fact that we are here is the proof that we have a role to play in the narrative of eternity. This is a very grand story.
I get goosebumps when I even just, you know, say it. Very grand way of conceptualizing our mattering. It's a kind of cosmic mattering that, that the God who created everything created us. And we are here to try to figure out how he wants us to behave. These are the people I call transcenders. Then most of the people I talk to, even if they go to church or mosque or synagogue, they're not transcenders in this way, you know, in that life would not be worth living if they didn't have this metaphysical belief. Most of the people I have spoken to are what I call socializers. They understand this question, do you matter? That I ask them.
They understand it, as do I matter to others. And very often the others to whom they need to matter are the people who are already in their lives. We all need people in our lives. Transcenders, heroic strivers, competitors. These are the four branches of four continents that I delineate. We all need people in our life. We're gregarious creatures, evolved from gregarious creatures. But for a socializer, there is no mattering other than mattering either to their people who are already in their lives, their children, or their romantic partners, or their community, colleagues, neighbors, people in their lives.
But there are other socializers. And I found this particularly with millennials, who it's not so much people in their lives, it can be perfect strangers. Many millennials want to be famous. That is how they. They want to appease the longing to matter. They want to be influencers, they really want to be famous. And they're willing to give up. I read a lot of psychological literature on this.
They're willing to give up, like, you know, having children, having romantic partners, having any Connection with their family for fame, which is to be to matter to a bunch of strangers. Which is an odd thing, really.
Completely unique in human history. There's a trillion dollar industry predicated on the need to matter, to get affirmation from strangers. A lot of people you don't like, like I, I always feel like you go to a comedy club and it's almost impossible for the comedian to really like the audience or whatever, but they want to be famous. But the most terrifying thing you quote in the book in that chapter on fame seekers had to do with the fact that they don't care what they're famous for. That's terrifying.
I understand a little bit the rationale because the way I understand this longing to matter is really trying to convince ourselves, which I find endearing about our species, that we have to convince ourselves. But the evidence that a lot of people are paying attention to us seems to be overwhelming evidence that we ourselves matter, that we deserve this attention. So I understand it in some sense, but in fact, most of the people I've spoken to who are famous, it's very, very insecure that they're not particularly happy people. The public is very fickle. There's that then, then heroic strivers and heroic strivers. Mattering doesn't mean mattering to God. It doesn't mean mattering to others. It means having certain standards of excellence that you are committed to, if not realizing, at least hatically approaching, you know, getting closer and closer to it.
And it could be intellectual, it could be artistic, it could be athletic, military, entrepreneurial, ethical. All of these types are profiled in the book. Their mattering project, whether it's intellectual or ethical or artistic, is what, you know, keeps them going. And failures in that are existential failures. You know, those setbacks are existential. You know, I don't feel like my life is worth anything. That sort of thing is what you hear. And the last group are competitors.
That's the one group where when I talk about to them about mattering, they get a little uneasy. I can always tell by the reactions at this point, you know, like where you are, sometimes I'm wrong and sometimes it's very, very tricky. But competitors really see mattering as zero sum. The more others matter, the less they matter. Just not enough mattering to go around. And it can be against individuals. It could also be group against group. And one of the people I profile, I really wanted to talk to a neo Nazi.
That's somebody you know. It's a group against group, zero sum mattering. And look he's done great work. I'm glad for, you know, for his work. It's seminal work. And so I would say for all of these types, socializers, transcenders, competitors, heroics, drivers can be good, it can be bad. And I try to define what are the good ways? How did we judge the good ways of trying to appease this longing we have? What are the creative ways? What are the destructive ways? And once again, entropy comes to the rescue.
You do write that once the disintegration from within has sufficiently progressed, it takes that much more energy to reverse it. A law that holds for our psyches as for all else. And so is depression sort of a, you know, they used to think miasmas and things in the area right about that. But is depression at heart an entropic collapsing process?
I have spoken to a lot of people who suffer from clinical depression, and I want to say first of all that the US hotline for suicide prevention is www.umatter.gov. the thing that the suicidally depressed people feel is that they don't matter. Others do, they don't. Nothing they can do will ever make them matter. A terrible, terrible. And what this means is they cannot, they cannot abide their own presence. I mean, I really think it shows how strong this mannering instinct is in us. You know, if you can't somehow appease it, you can't abide your own presence.
The people I've spoken to, and one is a very, very good philosopher who has suffered from depression, told me, is that phenomenologically, this is exactly what it feels like. It feels like psychic, psychic disintegration. It just feels like an unraveling and it's a kind of death within death. You know, you don't have the counter entropic drive to push on against entropy into your life.
You lack energy, you lack that innervation, positive and negative. And you know, when I read sometimes I get asked is, I'm sure you know, what's the meaning of life? I usually say something like this, Rebecca, I usually say, and it relates to your theory and your, what you posit in the book, which is it relates to entropy in the following way. If I said to you, Rebecca, could I double your happiness right now? Well, you have grandkids, right? Like pretty hard. Like maybe you have two grandkids, you know, and then you go to four. But eventually it's going to start to decrease, right? Like as wonderful as they are. You know, I know somebody with like 72, I mean, he's a Chabad rabbi, his grandfather has 72, you know, grandchildren. I'm like, does he know all their birthdays and whatever? That's probably like every day of the year or whatever. If I gave you a billion dollars, yeah, you'd be a lot happier.
But would you be, you know, like, could you be 10 times happier? But I say to somebody, and this really only kind of works for people that are. Have very tight, you know, either children or relationships in their life that are like children, if they don't have biological. And that's that. I could make your life infinitely worse. Like you, I don't even like to say it, right. I'm not even going to vocalize what it is. But you and I know as being parents how our life could be get infinite words worse, right? So the converse of that to me is you should do those things that which if they were taken away through an entropic destroying process, you would be devastated. Okay, maybe not.
But like, the more of those things you have, I think the happier or at least you can progress towards happiness. You speak about happiness not as a state of being, but as a. Almost like a journey. Does that comport with this entropic, you know, overarching. I would say architecture that you speak about, about.
We're not closed systems. Being a closed system is not compatible with being alive. We take in energy in the form of food and sunlight and certain chemicals and take it in, do the work of metabolism, keeping up the order that life needs. You know, life is a highly ordered system, so ordered it's scary to think because the more ordered, the more ways it can go wrong. And all of this order is maintained, you know, in the face. And resistance to entropy. That's what life, you know, viva la resistance. This is what life is.
That's what it is. Resistance to entropy. While we're of course exporting high entropic waste, you know, heat and other waste into the environment. Life is a local violation of the law of entropy. But the life with the environment, that system is obeying the law of entropy. There are no violations to the law of entropy. This is what life is. This is what flourishing is.
It is a counter entropic resistance, defiance and happiness. You know, happiness is a very ordered state. And I would say I would go even further. Everything worth living for is an ordered state. Knowledge is better than ignorance. Clarity is better than confusion. Flourishing is better than suffering. Love is better than hatred.
Beauty is better than ugliness. These are truisms, you know, these are that we all accept. And if you look at the thing that's better, it's an ordered state. It's negation is a disordered state. So I think I would argue this is a very kind of Spinozist argument trying to get out of the laws of nature some ethical enlightenment, some ethical guidance, because that's what we want. We want ethical guidance. You know, we know we want to matter. We know we do all sorts of things to matter.
Some people do very bad things in order to matter. Some of the people I've spoken to, they want power over others. They want dominance. They want to make other people life miserable. You know, these are bad things, right? They cause an increase in entropy. This is how I judge people. Are you increasing entropy or are you decreasing it?
Well, one of my favorite lines in the book that caused me to laugh out loud while I was playing golf with one of my kids and listening to the audiobook, which everyone should get, all versions of it. At one point you say, and I'm like about to hit my 16th shot on the hull, and you say that we burn 320 calories per day just by thinking. So if this book is pushing you to step up your thinking, even only to disagree, then you're burning extra calories. So, Brian, you're welcome. And so I read the book twice, Rebecca, so I could have that extra croissant. But it raises a real question. If people or situations are anti entropic. You just said, like, you judge people.
I'm going to ask you a very provocative question, which is, can people who don't have children? And children could mean biological, but it could also mean ideological children. It could mean mentees, it could mean proteges. It could mean people that you sponsor, your big brother, big sister, do they matter less? I know it's provocative, but can we say something about that?
Any mattering project that depends on making others feel like they matter less is wrong. I think I have a good proof. I didn't put it in this book because my editors, they wanted the book to sell. There couldn't be too much, too much philosophy. That's right. But I think a very good proof for why we all morally matter. And I think I've actually even broached it here. There's something ennobling about wanting to matter and try and devoting so much of our energy to these mattering projects.
We devote so much. It's hard enough to live, right? But no, we devote so much of our energy to these mattering. Writing books, studying, bringing up our children, fighting for justice. All of you know, so many different Ways. What are the bad ways? Well, anyone that you know, any, you know, anything that depends on making others feel like they matter less, either those in your life or you know, ideologically or whatever. But I would also say that some mattering projects can be bad because they're not actually working for you. I mean, sometimes as a professor, you know, you have students and they want to study a certain thing and you don't know really why they want to study it. They don't love it, they're not doing well in it.
But somehow their mattering seems to depend on this. It's kind of a responsibility to say, look, you're very smart, you have many talents. I don't think this is the best use of your talent. So to answer your question, here's what I would say. Because I want to be extremely pluralistic and I know people who I think live wonderful lives who have people that they're particularly caring for in their lives. That's not, they're just not caretakers. And I'm going to go back to Hillel the Elder, the great rabbinic sage of the first century. He said, you know, if I'm not for myself, then who will be for me? We can translate that into entropic language.
I have to be for myself. I have to be constantly fighting entropy and trying just to survive and to thrive. And because of that, you know, I pay a lot of attention to myself. I'm not, it's not that we're self centered but we have to feel ourselves deserving of attention, of our own attention. I mean our whole planning, our, our whole sense of engagement with life demands this. And so of course I have to be for myself. But if I'm only for myself, then what am I? Right? So the way I would translate that is if your Mannering project is only working for you and it is not having, it's not helping in any way to enforce the counter entropic process which is life and flourishing. Then you're selfish, you know, you're selfish.
But that there are so many ways of doing that, you know, I mean even, you know, plant a garden in your, in a park, you know, so others can enjoy it. There's so many ways that you can in some way be a force or save, save the animals, you know, Right. They're suffering too. Right.
This book, we have to do what you're not supposed to do, which is judge a book by its cover.
Hey book lovers, we're judging books by the covers. We know we're not supposed to do it, but I answer the impossible. There's nothing to it. Let's take a look and judge some books.
Take us through the book. The title, the subtitle and this map of meaning or this braided thread. It says Mercurial. I love the title, the COVID and the subtitle. So take us through it, Rebecca, please.
Yeah. The Mattering Instinct. The subtitle. How our deepest longing drives us and divides us and this divides us was very, very important to me. And that was sort of. After germinating these ideas for decades, what finally got me to write is what seems to be a crisis of mattering that we're going through and you know, so dividing us to the point that it's hard to have a civil union. I did want to offer this book as a way of perhaps being able to see the deep humanity in all of us and where we diverge. A lot of the divergence is in good faith, you know, to be able to see each other as generously as possible.
That was really the motivation because frankly, you know, trained in analytic philosophy, analytic philosophers like very little problems. Problems. Puzzles. We like puzzles. Puzzles and language are the best, right? I'm suspicious of big theories, but somehow this theory kept growing in my mind from physics to biology to psychology to philosophy to ethics, you know, and I was suspicious, I would say maybe afraid even to put it out. Like who the hell am I to put forth a broad theory? But I think it was really this sense of. It helps me when I get very angry when I'm reading the newspaper and it's like, what's wrong with my species? It helps me to go through the ideas that I work out here and to just to grow the generosity toward one another. So it's in that spirit, and that's how I understand this braid.
We're together, we're together. We're so together. We are all, you know, the whole scientific story of how we come to have this longing to matter and to justify ourselves. It's a common story, we share it. But then the way we appease this longing to matter, this mattering instinct, find a way of living with this self justificatory longing that requires us to have values, which is a leap. The values don't follow from all of this. If there's. There's free will anywhere, it's here where we branch off and we become undivided and go off in.
That's what I understood by this. I had turned down a whole bunch of covers because it's a very abstract idea and a lot of the covers, they gave me looked like Introduction to Differential Geometry. It just looked like a math book.
Fear that a lot of people have nowadays is about artificial intelligence kind of replacing what we do, that we have a sense of mattering from what we derive our matter. And you quote Freud in the book. Freud said all of life is work and love. And if AI can replace the work of knowledge workers like you and me and it can replace the love because of things like character AI and all these artificial relationships that don't require me to go out and ask a woman on a date or nowadays for men. So I want to ask you the question, can AI have a mattering instinct or is it encoded in this wet supercomputer that we carry on our shoulders? You know, is it possible you're right that AI is making everyone feel that redundancy is threatening to us, but will the AI rob ourselves of our mattering?
The two, you know, two different questions there, you know, one which is really, I think, you know, going to be upon us maybe already is, you know, that some of the most creative ways of appeasing or mannering instinct will be superseded by what AI can do. Prove math theorems faster, make discoveries in science, write novels, write music, paint pictures that have led to flourishing and led to great achievements that we can all take pride in. I take great pride in our species producing, you know, Bach and Shakespeare and Michael Jordan. I'm a big basketball fan. Here's some. One thing I would say, you know, the heroics drivers, what I call heroic strivers, it's really going to threaten them. I don't think that the socializers are going to look to, I mean to some extent maybe for romantic partners or. But mothers are not going to have little babies.
AI agents that are acting like they're babies. There's. I don't think this is going to happen. But I think heroic strivers, what I call heroic strivers, are going to be severe. One of the ways to be a heroic striver is ethically. And that will still remain to us. AI will not be able to do that. They could write our novels or our poetry or our music or prove our math theorems, but they're not going to be able to do that for us.
And so wouldn't that be a wonderful, wonderful turn of events of that's if somehow there was a change, an incredible ethical change. And that's how we got our status from how much good we're actually doing in the world, how much counter entropic good we're doing in the world. You Know, it's, this is a big thing that's upon us is all I can say. I can't think of anything else. Not the industrial revolution, not the Enlightenment, nothing that has the possibility of so changing what we are and what we see our lives as being about.
Even the very name of our species. You know, Homo habilis meant, you know, tool maker or handyman.
Yeah.
Homo sapien means man who knows, Right.
So exactly, exactly where do we go
when we're not the only things that know?
And your other question, if, you know, God forbid, if these agents begin to have a longing to matter, want to justify their own, you know, it would take self reflection, you know, of the sort that we have, you know, being able to step outside themselves and say, oh my God, I pay so much attention to myself, am I worth it? Do I deserve this? If they do this, then what we have are non cards, carbon based humans. These will be humans. And that means we're going to have to think about their rights. We're going to have a whole different way of having to think about ethics because we will have created, we've always been creating humans, but we will have created humans in a new way. You know, philosophers have been added for over 2000 years since the ancient Greeks. This is the moment for philosophers because these are philosophical problems. So show us what you've got. Philosophers, right? You've been thinking about this for 2000 years, show us what you've got.
Rebecca. This has been such a wonderful conversation. This book is incredible. It reminds me of a famous quote by John Archibald Wheeler, the man who coined the term black holes and matter.
I had him at Princeton. He was.
You did. Oh, you're so lucky. Your career is legendary. I mean, I just love your writing and your books. But Wheeler said maybe you heard him say it, maybe not. He said matter tells space time how to curve and space time tells matter how to move in this book, the Matter Entirely was one of the most moving books to me and hopefully we'll have many more. You'll write many more books or we'll talk about your other books too that have been so important to me and my colleagues and just the intellectual circle that I move in. But the movement of this book, it was surprising to me just how deep it is, how accurate it is and how precise it is.
It's a wonderful book. It's one of Apple's most anticipated books of the year. It's got, you know, hundreds of incredible reviews already. And I just thank you so much for sharing your time and just your ideas and your brain, your giant brain with the into the impossible. Audience thank you so much.
Rebecca oh, thank you so much. I knew it was going to be
fun and I'll do it again sometime.
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein just used the second law of thermodynamics to explain depression, meaning, and why AI might create new species. If that changes how you think about what matters, hit subscribe and turn on notifications. Drop a comment which of the four types of person are you? And if you want to go deeper on entropy and explore a provocative new theory that perhaps there is a new arrow of time, click here and watch my interview with Michael Long. You won't be disappointed, and your life may just keep it together a bit longer. Go ahead, click it now.
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💡 Speaker bios
Rebecca Goldstein’s journey began with a deep fascination for the laws that govern the universe. As an undergraduate in physics, Rebecca was captivated, but also mystified, by the second law of thermodynamics—a principle she sensed had profound implications for human existence. Her drive to understand this law and its tragic, universal resistance led her to philosophy, where she focused on the philosophy of physics. Throughout her career, Rebecca has explored how our lives, as physical systems, are forever shaped by the fundamental truths of the universe, making her work a bridge between scientific insight and philosophical inquiry.
🔖 Titles
The Mattering Instinct: Rebecca Goldstein on Meaning, Entropy, and the Science of Human Value
Rebecca Goldstein Explores Entropy, Depression, and What Truly Gives Our Lives Meaning
Life, Entropy, and Meaning: Rebecca Goldstein’s Theory on Why We Long to Matter
The Physics of Meaning: Rebecca Goldstein on Mattering, Happiness, and Humanity’s Deepest Longing
Understanding Human Value: Rebecca Goldstein Connects Thermodynamics, Depression, and Our Need to Matter
Countering Entropy: Rebecca Goldstein on Life’s Resistance and the Search for Purpose
Why We Long to Matter: Rebecca Goldstein on Meaning and the Laws of Physics
Rebecca Goldstein Unveils the Science Behind Mattering, Happiness, and Existential Angst
Matter, Meaning, and Entropy: Rebecca Goldstein’s Guide to Human Flourishing and Value
From Entropy to Ethics: Rebecca Goldstein on The Science that Shapes Our Search for Meaning
💬 Keywords
law of entropy, second law of thermodynamics, meaning of life, happiness, depression, entropy, human flourishing, Boltzmann, irreversibility paradox, mattering instinct, ethical transformation, Axial Age, transcenders, socializers, heroic strivers, competitors, fame, influencers, depression and meaning, suicide prevention, resistance to entropy, local violation of entropy, macroscopic irreversibility, scientific discovery, bad philosophy, AI and meaning, artificial intelligence, philosophical problems, counter-entropic process, flourishing versus suffering
ℹ️ Introduction
Welcome to The INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast. In today’s episode, we’re joined by Rebecca Goldstein: MacArthur “genius,” philosopher, acclaimed novelist, and physicist. Rebecca Goldstein takes us on an exploration into the deepest questions of human existence—using the second law of thermodynamics as a framework for understanding not only the universe, but also human meaning, happiness, depression, and the instinctive longing to matter.
We’ll trace the origins of the “mattering instinct,” learn why life itself is a local violation of entropy, and uncover the four strategies humans use to convince themselves that they matter—whether through transcendence, social connection, heroic striving, or competition. Rebecca Goldstein breaks down how these drives shape our personalities, relationships, and even our susceptibility to despair.
We’ll also examine Boltzmann’s tragic story, consider the coming age of artificial intelligence, and ask: Can an AI ever truly “matter”? And as humanity faces an unprecedented crisis of mattering, Rebecca Goldstein offers insight, humor, and surprising answers about what it means to live a meaningful life in a universe governed by entropy.
Stay tuned for a thought-provoking conversation that bridges physics, philosophy, and the search for purpose, only on The INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 The section discusses the realization that biological systems are organized to resist the second law of thermodynamics, as recognized by Boltzmann and articulated in Schrodinger's "What is Life?", with entropy representing the system's disorder, which increases in closed systems leading them to thermal equilibrium.
04:08 The section discusses the connection between scientists' personalities and the concept of irreversible processes, using the example of cooking an egg to illustrate how natural processes cannot be reversed.
09:14 The discussion centers on why some scientists, like Ignaz Semmelweis, fall prey to flawed philosophical influences, contributing to their underappreciation and challenges, as highlighted by Matt Kaplan’s book on Semmelweis's struggles and tragic early death.
10:26 The text discusses the idea that temperament significantly influences one's path, highlighting a personal journey from being raised to fulfill traditional roles, to seeking intellectual fulfillment and contributing to knowledge, inspired by Altman's preference for solving significant problems over leading others.
13:32 The text outlines one of four general strategies, focusing on "transcenders," a historical human mindset up until the Enlightenment, where individuals sought purpose through a belief in a transcendent presence, such as God, who gave life meaning within a grand, eternal narrative.
17:04 The discussion explores the human longing to feel significant and the insecurity it can bring, highlighting that true fulfillment comes from striving for personal excellence rather than seeking validation from others.
21:11 The discussion explores the concept of happiness in relation to life's meaning, entropy, and the diminishing returns of increased happiness, using examples of family size and wealth to illustrate the point.
25:08 During a golf game with his child while listening to an audiobook, the speaker discusses a humorous line about burning 320 calories a day through thinking, suggesting that engaging with the book demands additional mental effort, which humorously justifies indulging in extra food.
28:05 The section discusses the balance between self-care and altruism, emphasizing that while attending to oneself is necessary for survival and flourishing, focusing solely on oneself without contributing to the broader life-enriching process is deemed selfish.
32:20 The text discusses concerns about AI potentially replacing human work and relationships, questioning whether AI can possess a "mattering instinct" and how its advancement might threaten human significance.
35:28 The text discusses the potential ethical and philosophical implications of artificial agents developing self-reflection and a desire for significance, likening them to humans and prompting a need to re-evaluate their rights and ethical considerations.
36:40 The text discusses admiration for a writer's career and work, specifically highlighting the book "Matter Entirely" as deeply moving, accurate, and precise, mentioning a quote by Wheeler on matter and space-time.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Discovering biology and entropy
04:08 Irreversible processes and personality types
09:14 Discussing Ignaz Semmelweis
10:26 Importance of temperament in innovation
13:32 Exploring humanity's spiritual history
17:04 The need for validation and recognition
21:11 Discussing happiness and entropy
25:08 Laughing while listening to the audiobook
28:05 Balancing self-care and selfishness
32:20 Concerns about AI replacing humans
35:28 Philosophical questions about AI consciousness
36:40 Discussing the impact of your book
❇️ Key topics and bullets
Comprehensive Sequence of Topics Covered
1. Introduction: The Second Law of Thermodynamics and Human Meaning
The connection between physics (entropy) and human experience (00:00:00)
Life as resistance to entropy (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:00:09)
Using physics to develop a theory of meaning and mattering (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:00:09)
2. Rebecca Goldstein's Academic Background and Motivation
Training in physics and philosophy (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:01:12)
Fascination with the second law of thermodynamics and its implications for biology and meaning (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:01:28)
Reference to Erwin Schrödinger’s What is Life? and Boltzmann’s insights (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:01:59)
The “tragic dimension” of entropy and its existential implications (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:02:14)
3. Entropy Explained: Physics and Human Significance
Clausius and the concept of thermal equilibrium/heat death (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:02:43)
Humor with Woody Allen/Annie Hall reference for cosmic meaning (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:03:12)
4. Ludwig Boltzmann’s Paradox and Solution
The irreversibility paradox: macroscopic vs. microscopic processes (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:04:29)
Explanation with the egg example (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:04:38)
Boltzmann’s solution: probability and constituent parts (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:05:57)
The concept of “shuffleability” and why disorder is more probable (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:06:49)
Supreme law of physics: the second law’s unfalsifiability (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:07:55)
5. Philosophy, Science, and Tragedy: Boltzmann’s Fate
Bad philosophy (positivism) and its impact on Boltzmann’s acceptance (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:08:22)
The tragic consequences for scientists denied recognition (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:09:44)
Comparison with other scientists (e.g., Semmelweis, Katalin Karikó) and personality differences (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:10:26)
6. The Longing to Matter: Roots and Historical Emergence
The role of temperament in scientific creativity and resilience (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:10:26)
Distinction between surviving and the longing to matter (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:12:10)
“Creatures of matter who long to matter”: emergence of this longing in the Axial Age (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:12:17)
7. The “Maps of Mattering”: Four Human Strategies
Introduction of the four “continents” of mattering (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:13:32)
Transcenders: derive meaning from a transcendent source (e.g., God) (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:13:50)
Socializers: meaning is found in mattering to others (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:15:20)
Heroic Strivers: seek excellence in intellectual, artistic, or other pursuits (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:17:44)
Competitors: see mattering as zero-sum (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:18:30)
Modern shifts and challenges (e.g., fame as a form of mattering for millennials) (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:16:09)
8. Entropy, Depression, and the Experience of Meaninglessness
Entropic metaphors for psychological disintegration and depression (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:20:03)
The inability to “matter” as key to suicidal depression (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:20:16)
Life and flourishing as counter-entropic processes (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:23:25)
Ethical and psychological differences between states of order (happiness, flourishing) and disorder (suffering, ignorance) (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:24:02)
9. Ethics of Mattering: Good and Bad Ways to Matter
Judging actions by whether they increase or decrease entropy (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:25:04)
Distinction between selfish and generative forms of mattering (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:26:06)
Reference to Hillel the Elder: being for oneself versus for others (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:27:59)
10. Book Details, Title, and Purpose
Book title, subtitle, and the themes of unity and division in mattering (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:29:44)
Using the theory to cultivate generosity in understanding human divisions and shared humanity (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:30:27)
The visual metaphor of the braided cover (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:31:25)
11. Artificial Intelligence, Mattering, and the Future
Fears about AI replacing human roles in creativity and relationships (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:33:11)
Differentiation between types threatened by AI (especially heroic strivers) (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:33:52)
Prospect of new forms of mattering if AI develops self-reflective longing (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:35:28)
Philosophical and ethical challenges posed by AI “humans” (Rebecca Goldstein: 00:36:12)
12. Closing Remarks and Reflection
The intertwining of physics, ethics, and philosophy
Rebecca Goldstein’s personal connection to great physicists (e.g., John Archibald Wheeler) (00:36:38)
Encouragement for further thought and exploration (podcast outro)
👩💻 LinkedIn post
Just had the privilege of listening to Rebecca Goldstein on the INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast—an episode that redefines how we think about meaning, mattering, and even depression through the surprising lens of the second law of thermodynamics.
🔑 Key Takeaways:
Life as Counter-Entropy: Rebecca Goldstein frames life itself as a continual local resistance to entropy—a process of creating order (and meaning) in the face of inevitable disorder. This scientific perspective offers fresh insight into our human longing to matter and how we evaluate meaning in our lives 00:00:09, 00:23:25.
The Mattering Instinct: She shares her “maps of mattering,” outlining four strategies we humans use to convince ourselves we matter: Transcenders (seek meaning via religion), Socializers (need to matter to others), Heroic Strivers (pursue excellence), and Competitors (see mattering as zero-sum). Where do you fit in? 00:13:32.
AI & The Future of Meaning: As AI increasingly encroaches on domains of creativity and work, Rebecca Goldstein challenges us: What will matter as non-human agents do what once set us apart? Perhaps, she suggests, the true frontier is ethical counter-entropy—actively contributing good in the world 00:33:11.
Highly recommended for anyone reflecting on purpose, meaning, or the future of work and human value!
#philosophy #meaning #AI #entropy #leadership #wellbeing
🧵 Tweet thread
🧵 1/ What if the deepest question of your life—“Do I matter?”—could be answered by physics? Sounds wild? #MatteringInstinct
2/ Rebecca Goldstein, philosopher & MacArthur genius, takes the second law of thermodynamics—yep, entropy—and builds a whole theory of human meaning on top of it. 00:00:40
3/ Life, says Rebecca Goldstein, is a "local violation of the law of entropy." We’re little knots of order fighting the cosmic trend toward disorder. 00:00:09
4/ The tragedy? Entropy isn't just out there in the universe—it's inside us, too. Depression, to Rebecca Goldstein, feels like psychic unraveling, a collapse of that counter-entropic drive. 00:20:55
5/ “Creatures of matter who long to matter.” That’s us: physically driven by the laws of physics, but existentially yearning for purpose. 00:12:17
6/ Rebecca Goldstein maps out how humans chase meaning in four ways:
🌌 Transcenders (seek cosmic meaning, often religious)
🧑🤝🧑 Socializers (matter through relationships or even through fame)
🏆 Heroic Strivers (achieve excellence, chase ideals)
🥊 Competitors (mattering as a zero-sum game) 00:13:37
7/ Here’s the kicker: Fights over “who matters” divide us and drive us. Our need for mattering builds societies—but also tears them apart. 00:29:44
8/ The surest way to judge a moral action? Does it decrease entropy, creating more order, knowledge, love, beauty, justice? Or does it tear things down, increasing disorder? 00:25:05
9/ Fame, she says, is like empty calories for the soul. We hunger for evidence that we matter—but being “seen” by strangers rarely quells the longing. 00:17:30
10/ And as for AI: Will artificial minds someday long to matter? If they do, says Rebecca Goldstein, we’ll have to rethink what “being human” even means. 00:35:28
11/ 💭 Bottom line: Life is resistance. Mattering means taking the raw facts of existence & building meaning atop them—even (especially) as entropy creeps in.
👉 Which “continent” of mattering are you? Do you build order or chaos in the world?
Retweet if this made you see physics, philosophy, or your own purpose differently. 📊🔁
#Entropy #MeaningOfLife #RebeccaGoldstein #Philosophy #AI #MentalHealth
🗞️ Newsletter
INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast Newsletter
Episode Feature: Rebecca Goldstein Explores The Mattering Instinct
This Week’s Episode: Rebecca Goldstein — Mapping Human Meaning Through Physics
What if the secret to human happiness—and even our sense of meaning—was hidden in the Second Law of Thermodynamics?
In our latest episode, MacArthur “Genius” award-winning philosopher and novelist Rebecca Goldstein dives into her groundbreaking new book, The Mattering Instinct. Drawing on her background in both philosophy and physics, Rebecca Goldstein connects thermodynamics to the deep human need to matter, introducing a provocative theory that blends science, meaning, and ethics.
Highlights From This Episode:
Meaning & Entropy:
Rebecca Goldstein explains how life itself is a “local violation of the law of entropy”—a counter-entropic resistance that turns the cold laws of physics into a vivid lens for understanding happiness, depression, and our longing to matter 00:00:09.Four Strategies for Mattering:
Discover the “maps of mattering,” Rebecca Goldstein’s model for how people make their lives significant:Transcenders (finding meaning beyond the self)
Socializers (the importance of mattering to others)
Heroic Strivers (pursuing excellence and achievement)
Competitors (mattering by outdoing others)
Where do you see yourself? 00:13:32
Entropy & Mental Health:
A powerful analogy: depression feels like “psychic disintegration”—an internal collapse similar to rising entropy 00:20:03.AI, Mattering, and the Future:
Can artificial intelligence ever develop a mattering instinct—or even become “non-carbon-based humans”? Rebecca Goldstein lays out why AI could reshape what it means to matter, and what work and love might look like in an AI-shaped future 00:33:11, 00:35:28.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Life is a local violation of the law of entropy. It is a counter entropic resistance. The thing that suicidally depressed people feel is that they don't matter. Others do, they don't.” — Rebecca Goldstein 00:00:09
“Everything worth living for is an ordered state. Knowledge is better than ignorance. Clarity is better than confusion. … If you look at the thing that's better, it's an ordered state; its negation is a disordered state.” — Rebecca Goldstein 00:24:04
Join The Conversation
Which “continent” of mattering describes you? Do you think AI could one day share this longing to matter? Hit reply and share your thoughts—we’d love to hear from you.
And if this episode got you thinking differently about physics, happiness, or the meaning of life, forward this newsletter to a friend!
🎧 Listen to the episode now: [Episode Link]
📚 Pick up The Mattering Instinct by Rebecca Goldstein
🔔 Subscribe to the INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE podcast for more mind-expanding conversations!
❓ Questions
Discussion Questions
Rebecca Goldstein describes life as "a local violation of the law of entropy" and "a counter entropic resistance" at 00:00:09. How does this reframe our understanding of human existence and its challenges?
Rebecca Goldstein links the second law of thermodynamics to the human search for meaning (00:01:12, 00:13:32). Do you agree that fundamental physical laws can inform our understanding of ethics and personal purpose? Why or why not?
In discussing Ludwig Boltzmann and the irreversibility paradox (00:03:48), Rebecca Goldstein describes how scientific innovation can be stymied by prevailing philosophical views. Can you think of other examples in science where philosophical bias delayed progress?
The concept of the "mattering instinct" underpins the book discussed in this episode (00:13:32). How does this idea resonate with your own experiences or observations of human motivation?
Rebecca Goldstein introduces four "maps of mattering": transcenders, socializers, heroic strivers, and competitors (00:13:32). Which category do you most identify with, and why? Do you believe these categories are comprehensive?
The discussion explores how fame is pursued as a way to "matter" (00:16:03). What do you think is the impact of modern technology and social media on this pursuit?
Depression is described as a loss of the counter-entropic drive (00:20:03). How convincing do you find this analogy between entropy and mental health? Can this framework be helpful in understanding or addressing depression?
Rebecca Goldstein is critical of mattering projects that depend on making others "matter less" (00:26:06). How do you determine whether your own projects or ambitions are generative versus destructive?
The future implications of AI are raised, especially the question of whether AI could develop a "mattering instinct" (00:33:11, 00:35:28). What ethical considerations should shape the development of artificial intelligence in light of this possibility?
Rebecca Goldstein suggests that flourishing and happiness are ordered states opposing entropy (00:23:53). Does this scientific lens offer practical advice for living a meaningful life? Why or why not?
curiosity, value fast, hungry for more
✅ Can the laws of physics explain why you want your life to matter?
✅ Philosopher-genius Rebecca Goldstein joins the INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast to reveal how the second law of thermodynamics underlies our search for meaning—and even our struggles with happiness and depression.
✅ From cosmic entropy to the deep roots of human purpose, Rebecca Goldstein and the host dive into the science and philosophy of why we strive, compete, love, and despair.
✅ Discover which of the four "maps of mattering" shape your life—and how you, too, can become a force of order in a universe leaning to chaos. Listen now!
Conversation Starters
Conversation Starters for the Facebook Group
**Rebecca Goldstein argues that "life is a local violation of the law of entropy." How do you interpret this idea? In what ways do you identify examples of "counter-entropic" actions in your daily life? 00:00:09
The concept of "mattering" is central to Rebecca Goldstein's new book. Which of the four types from her "maps of mattering"—transcenders, socializers, heroic strivers, or competitors—do you most relate to, and why? 00:13:32
Rebecca Goldstein says, "All tragedies are thermodynamic." Do you see a connection between the laws of physics and human emotions or experiences? Share your thoughts! 00:09:00
The episode discusses how depression can feel like a "psychic disintegration" tied to the longing to matter. How does this perspective resonate with your understanding of mental health or personal experiences? 00:20:03
The possibility of artificial intelligence developing a "mattering instinct" is raised in the episode. Do you think AI could ever truly "want" to matter? What implications would that have for humanity? 00:35:28
Rebecca Goldstein asks: Are you increasing entropy or decreasing it? What would living your life as a "force against entropy" actually look like? 00:25:04
Does believing that "everything worth living for is an ordered state" change how you think about happiness, love, or creativity? How do you experience order versus chaos in your own pursuit of meaning? 00:24:04
The idea that people seek mattering either through transcendence, social connection, achievement, or competition is fascinating. How do you see these dynamics playing out on social media or in your own online community interactions? 00:16:12
Rebecca Goldstein differentiates between mattering projects that are constructive versus those that diminish others. What are some examples, historical or personal, where the pursuit of mattering became destructive? 00:26:06
After listening to the episode, has your understanding of "meaning" changed? What key takeaways from Rebecca Goldstein's theory will you use to "keep it together a bit longer" as suggested at the end? 00:38:01
🐦 Business Lesson Tweet Thread
1
What if your deepest urge — to matter — is just physics in disguise?
2
Rebecca Goldstein says life is a local rebellion against entropy, the law that dooms all to disorder 00:00:09.
3
We’re matter fighting not to unravel. That’s not poetry. It’s thermodynamics.
4
Most of us feel a constant hunger: do I matter? Who decides?
5
Rebecca Goldstein breaks it down: four ways people try to matter—through God, through others, through achievement, or by competing 00:13:32.
6
But here’s the ultra-weird twist: when you’re depressed, it feels like entropy has already won inside you 00:20:03.
7
You can’t muster the force to resist, so your sense of meaning falls apart.
8
Every creative move you make is fighting entropy. Building something, helping someone, even just thinking hard — all decreases disorder, locally.
9
Rebecca Goldstein judges people on this: are you increasing or decreasing entropy? 00:25:05
10
Meaning isn’t magic. It’s maintenance.
11
So the next time you fight for something worth doing, remember — you’re engineering your own meaning against the universe’s collapse.
12
Entropy is easy. Mattering is creative defiance. Keep resisting.
✏️ Custom Newsletter
Subject: Can Physics Explain the Meaning of Life? 🎙️ New Podcast Episode with Rebecca Goldstein!
Hey friends,
Big news! We just dropped a brand new episode of the INTO THE IMPOSSIBLE Podcast, and it’s one you won’t want to miss. This week, we’re joined by the brilliant Rebecca Goldstein—MacArthur genius, novelist, philosopher, and a true force of nature who combines deep thinking with a sharp sense of humor.
Episode highlight: Rebecca Goldstein uses—wait for it—the second law of thermodynamics to explore not just physics, but the very heart of why we long to matter and how we build meaning in our lives. If you’ve ever wondered what happiness, entropy, and mattering have in common (and who hasn’t?), this episode is for you.
5 Keys You’ll Learn in This Episode
Entropy & Meaning Are Linked: Discover how the laws of physics, especially entropy, shape our need to matter and give our lives meaning (00:00:09, 00:03:01).
Why Most Human Projects Resist Disorder: Learn why being “alive” really means resisting the tendency toward chaos—and how this parallels our search for purpose (00:02:39).
The Four Maps of Mattering: Find out which of the four “continents of mattering” you live on—are you a Transcender, Socializer, Heroic Striver, or Competitor? (00:13:32)
Why Happiness Takes Effort: Explore why flourishing, love, and knowledge are all ordered states that require ongoing resistance to entropy (00:24:02).
AI & The Future of Meaning: Dive into the surprising ways that artificial intelligence could challenge what it means to matter, and what might set humans apart from our creations (00:33:11).
Fun Fact 🤯
Did you know that Rebecca Goldstein calculated you burn about 320 calories a day just by thinking? So if listening to this podcast gets your gears turning, feel free to reward yourself with that extra croissant (00:25:26).
Outtro
This episode dives deep but keeps things lively—we even get a Woody Allen joke and a little philosophy-meets-basketball moment. Whether you’re exploring the sciences or pondering your own “mattering project,” there’s something here for everyone.
Call to Action
If you’re ready to find out which mattering map you belong on and hear one of the sharpest thinkers of our time, check out the full episode now (grab your favorite snack—you’re burning calories anyway).
Let us know: Which “type” are you? Drop us a reply or head over to the comments and join the conversation.
Don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode, and if you love it, share with a friend who loves big ideas!
See you in the next Impossible,
—Team Into the Impossible
🎓 Lessons Learned
1. Entropy Governs Human Experience
Second law of thermodynamics shapes not just physics, but life's inherent struggle for order, happiness, and meaning.
2. Life Is Counter-Entropic
Living systems persist by resisting disorder, maintaining order against the universe’s tendency toward chaos.
3. The Irreversibility Paradox
Boltzmann resolved how macroscopic irreversibility arises from microscopic reversible processes via probability and large numbers.
4. The Tragedy of Mattering
Humans are “creatures of matter who long to matter,” leading to existential struggle and mental health challenges.
5. Four Mattering Strategies Identified
People pursue mattering as transcenders, socializers, heroic strivers, or competitors, each with unique motivations and pitfalls.
6. Seeking Validation and Fame
The modern quest for attention—even from strangers—signals a new, sometimes maladaptive, strategy for appeasing our mattering instinct.
7. Depression as Psychic Entropy
Clinical depression described as a subjective experience of psychic disintegration and a collapse of intrinsic drive.
8. Flourishing Requires Order
Happiness, knowledge, and love are all ordered states; suffering and confusion are higher entropy and thus undesirable.
9. Ethical Evaluation via Entropy
Actions diminishing others’ mattering or increasing disorder are ethically negative; counter-entropic contributions are positive.
10. AI’s Challenge to Human Mattering
Artificial intelligence’s advance may disrupt human strategies for mattering and force new ethical and philosophical frameworks.
10 Surprising and Useful Frameworks and Takeaways
10 Most Surprising and Useful Frameworks & Takeaways
1. Meaning Built on the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Rebecca Goldstein constructs a theory of human meaning atop the second law of thermodynamics. She describes life itself as a "local violation of the law of entropy—a counter-entropic resistance," suggesting that our resistance to disorder is fundamental not only to biology but to our experience of meaning 00:00:09, 00:01:47.
2. The Four Continents of Mattering
Rebecca Goldstein offers a typology for interpreting how people seek to matter:
Transcenders: Seek meaning through a belief in a transcendent presence (e.g., God) who bestows purpose 00:13:50.
Socializers: Define mattering by their connection to others, valuing relationships and social attention 00:15:15.
Heroic Strivers: Find meaning in the pursuit of excellence, whether intellectual, artistic, ethical, athletic, or entrepreneurial 00:17:44.
Competitors: View mattering as a zero-sum game; their sense of significance comes from mattering more than others or out-competing them 00:18:30, 00:19:02.
3. Happiness and Order as Entropic Resistance
Happiness and all states worth living for are described as "ordered states," direct analogues to entropy: knowledge over ignorance, beauty over ugliness, love over hate—all represent local decreases in entropy 00:23:59, 00:24:04.
4. Depression Framed as Psychic Entropy
Depression, particularly the feeling of suicidality, is explained as an "entropic disintegration" of the psyche—an unraveling resembling a death within life, where the person loses the energy to resist entropy 00:20:03, 00:20:44.
5. A New Ethical Lens: Are You Increasing or Decreasing Entropy?
Rebecca Goldstein proposes judging actions and projects by whether they increase or decrease entropy in the world—creativity, love, and growth as counter-entropic; oppression and destruction as entropic 00:25:04.
6. AI and the Mattering Instinct
Goldstein predicts AI will most endanger heroic strivers—if AI can be more creative or solve problems better, it challenges the human mattering derived from such pursuits. Social and relational forms of mattering will remain uniquely human—at least for now 00:33:11.
7. Mattering as a Human Universal—But Not All Mattering Is Good
There are both creative and destructive forms of longing to matter. Mattering projects can become toxic when they're zero-sum or require making others matter less 00:26:06.
8. Origin of the Longing to Matter: The Axial Age
This pervasive longing to matter and quest for justification arose during the Axial Age, the period when enduring world religions and Western philosophy emerged. Our need to justify ourselves is a relatively recent and remarkable feature of humanity 00:12:27, 00:13:07.
9. Pluralism and Self-Justification
Drawing on the rabbinic sage Hillel, Rebecca Goldstein asserts: if your mattering project is solely for yourself, it is inadequate. True meaning comes from being both for oneself and for others, and resisting entropy in a way that enhances the flourishing of more than just yourself 00:28:29.
10. Entropy and the Sciences: Supreme Law and Irreversibility
Goldstein uses the egg analogy to explain the irreversibility paradox—why macroscopic processes (like frying an egg) are irreversible, even though fundamental particle motions are reversible—and connects this to our experience of time and inevitable disorder 00:05:48, 00:06:01.
These frameworks provide both self-assessment tools and ethical guidance for personally evaluating meaning, mental health, and the impact of one's actions in the world.
Clip Able
Clip 1: "Life as Resistance to Entropy"
Timestamps: 00:00:09 – 00:03:01
Caption:
Rebecca Goldstein connects the second law of thermodynamics to the human experience of meaning and tragedy. She explains how life itself is a local resistance to entropy, and discusses the implications of entropy for our existence, from personal despair to the fate of the universe, even referencing famous cultural moments like Woody Allen’s Annie Hall."Life is a local violation of the law of entropy. It is a counter entropic resistance... There's a tragic dimension to this law, and that we live in resistance to it."
Clip 2: "Boltzmann’s Paradox & The Longing to Matter"
Timestamps: 00:04:08 – 00:07:47
Caption:
Rebecca Goldstein analyzes Boltzmann’s irreversibility paradox and the profound impact it had on both physics and human psychology. She links the scientific quest to solve the paradox with the human drive to matter, exploring how fundamental laws of nature shape our need for significance and why Boltzmann’s revolutionary ideas were tragically misunderstood in his time."The formative feature of personality is how you minister to this longing to matter... You can film the molecules and the process is reversible, but the macroscopic state is not. That's the paradox Boltzmann solved."
Clip 3: "The Four Continents of Mattering"
Timestamps: 00:13:32 – 00:16:34
Caption:
Rebecca Goldstein introduces her original framework—the Four Continents of Mattering: Transcenders, Socializers, Heroic Strivers, and Competitors. She explains how each group seeks to answer the core question, "Do I matter?", with motivations ranging from religious faith to social connection and personal achievement."I've noticed that there are four general strategies... the four continents of the mattering map: Transcenders, Socializers, Heroic Strivers, and Competitors."
Clip 4: "Depression, Entropy, and Psychic Disintegration"
Timestamps: 00:20:03 – 00:23:18
Caption:
Rebecca Goldstein offers a powerful discussion on depression through the lens of entropy, describing the phenomenology of suicidality as a feeling of "not mattering" and psychic unraveling. She draws striking parallels between physical entropy and psychological disintegration, emphasizing the universal human longing for meaning."Depressed people feel they don't matter... Phenomenologically, this is exactly what it feels like—psychic disintegration, an unraveling. It's a kind of death within death."
Clip 5: "AI, the Future of Mattering, and Non-Carbon-Based Humans"
Timestamps: 00:33:11 – 00:36:12
Caption:
In a forward-looking conversation, Rebecca Goldstein explores how artificial intelligence could challenge the foundations of human meaning, creativity, and even identity. She discusses the possibility of AI developing a "longing to matter," the ethical implications, and how this moment could radically redefine what it means to be human."If these agents begin to have a longing to matter... then what we have are non-carbon-based humans. This will force us to rethink ethics and the philosophical questions we've wrestled with for millennia."
💡 Speaker bios
Brian Keating is a curious and engaging science communicator, known for exploring the big questions at the intersection of physics, philosophy, and meaning. In his work, he showcases ideas from leading thinkers like Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, who creatively connects the second law of thermodynamics to concepts like depression, meaning, and artificial intelligence. Brian regularly encourages his audience to reflect on their own place in the universe and to dive deeper into profound topics, such as the nature of entropy and new theories about the arrow of time—like those discussed in his compelling interview with Michael Long. Through his accessible and thought-provoking content, Brian Keating invites viewers to broaden their perspectives and stay tuned for the next big discovery that might just help them make a little more sense of life.
💡 Speaker bios
Rebecca Goldstein’s journey began with a deep fascination for physics as an undergraduate. Her growing curiosity led her to the philosophy of physics, where she explored the profound laws that govern the universe. The second law of thermodynamics especially captivated her, posing both intellectual challenges and existential questions. Despite struggling to fully conceptualize this law, Rebecca sensed its far-reaching implications; as physical beings, we cannot escape its tragic inevitability. Yet, she observes, life itself is defined by its resistance to this fate—a theme that fuels both her philosophical inquiry and her storytelling.
💡 Speaker bios
Brian Keating has a keen interest in the intersection of science, philosophy, and history. Fascinated by figures like Ignaz Semmelweis, whose revolutionary insights about hygiene were initially rejected by the scientific community, Brian explores why some scientists fall prey to flawed philosophies while others persist in the face of skepticism. Drawing on stories like Semmelweis's—whose tragic early death was likely hastened by the rejection and melancholy he endured—Brian aims to understand and communicate the challenges scientists face when their groundbreaking ideas confront established beliefs.
💡 Speaker bios
Brian Keating is a renowned physicist and science communicator who brings cutting-edge scientific ideas to a broad audience. Known for thought-provoking interviews with brilliant minds like Rebecca Newberger Goldstein and Michael Long, Brian explores deep questions about meaning, consciousness, and the universe. In his content, he engages viewers with topics like the second law of thermodynamics, the nature of depression and purpose, and even theories about new arrows of time and the evolution of AI. Through his compelling storytelling and curiosity, Brian invites his audience to reflect, question, and dive deeper into the mysteries that shape our reality.
💡 Speaker bios
Rebecca Goldstein’s story is one driven by curiosity and the profound questions at the intersection of science and philosophy. As an undergraduate, her fascination with the mysteries of the universe led her to study physics. This passion naturally evolved into a deep dive into the philosophy of physics, where she explored the fundamental laws shaping our existence. The second law of thermodynamics caught her imagination—its complexity and implications stoked both wonder and a sense of tragedy. Rebecca became captivated by the idea that, as living beings and physical systems, we live in perpetual resistance to the inexorable increase of entropy. Her work and thought reflect a lifelong quest to understand the laws that govern us, and the existential meanings woven into scientific truths.
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