But yeah, let's get this started. We've got, yeah, we've got a good amount of participants waiting.

Okay, good.

So yeah, Terry, tell us about, you know, we did this topic, 9 swing archetypes and how Sportsbox data relates to those different, or how Sportsbox data is used to define those, you know, different swing types and how you might think about the different ranges that pertain to the different types. Tell us a little bit about, you know, since that last webinar, what else you've discovered along the way and what people can expect today.

Yeah, well, you know, I've been working really hard on our book and, you know, the people that like what we do, it's probably gonna be some similarities. The people that are on the fence or somewhere else, you know, I'm trying to, you know, describe the concepts a little bit better. So today, I'm going to talk about, you know, what is it that we do in terms of, you know, how does that relate to the way humans move and things like this. So it's just like a bigger picture, like more of a 10,000-foot view of where, you know, we fit in and where, you know, I mean, it's completely clear that some people get better at golf without Mike and Terry helping them. And, you know, so looking at sort of where we fit in in the bigger world of golf improvement, you know, and then more specifically, when we start trying to personalize golf instruction the way we do in terms of, you know, assessing the way that people move, what does that mean? You know, what is that a class of? And so I'm going to explain that a little bit more, you know, so hopefully people can understand, you know, obviously there's some commonalities. But we, you know, we like to personalize our golf instruction. But within SportsBox, even, I mean, obviously there's a ton of numbers that are, you know, like tracker truths where, you know, everybody does certain things who's a good player. But then again, like you said, there's ranges of stylistic and, you know, movement and force differences between styles. So I'm going to talk about that too.

Perfect. Before we get to the core of the webinar, I just, for For those of you who haven't seen Sportsbox in a while, there are some new updates in the product that you might want to check out. And I wanted to ask you, Terry, about these new features as well. But one of the highlights in the latest update, which I think released 2 weeks ago, is a diagnosis feature where you can not only just analyze a swing and see the data that pertains to that swing, but we also make it easy to identify You know, pretty common swing flaws that we know as, like, colloquially a reverse pivot or not enough turn. You know, all these things that are— that probably capture 95% of amateur swing flaws that we see day in, day out. And we make it really easy for you to get to which numbers identify what swing fault in the product. And you know, a lot of people, um, have found a lot of value in this. So I wanted to get your perspective, Terry. People have asked like, hey, you know, how, how does, um, how should a coach think about this feature? Are you guys trying to eliminate us by making it too easy? But what, what's your perspective on that?

Yeah, I think, uh, I mean, it's an unbelievably complicated game, right? And, uh, in Like I say, in trying to contextualize where we live and sort of the whole ecosystem, I mean, measuring swings is a thing and understanding how humans operate is a thing. And there's just so many things, right? So for example, I have this sort of, as you can imagine, 3 Venn diagram concept as to why we swing like we do. And so effectively, like, golf is a decision-making game. So you go out and you you know, you make a bad decision and you're not committed and you make a bad swing. So, you know, was that a bad decision or was it a bad swing? So, you know, so there's like that component of a swing which you can't see on a piece of data. And then you've got, you know, the launch monitor, you've got, you know, badly fitted clubs. I mean, it's just like so many things, right? So, so for me, you know, I really like that feature on the Studio where you click the assessment and it says, hey, look at these few things. Because I'm trying to process like everything. And, you know, there's this constant in the background of sportsbooks saying, hey, check this out. And I always thought, you know, whatever would eventually be a consumer product would be really useful for teachers because I would have called it like an assistant coach, you know, an assist. So I think it's an assist personally. I think every, you know, I can either, you know, pay attention to it or not, but You know, every, you know, data-based quote unquote opinion is useful to me, and I process that just the same as the things that are actually kind of invisible that we hope to see but may or may not.

Yeah, I like that word, coach's assistant, and that's kind of— that's exactly what we were dreaming up when we decided to include this feature for the coaches. Honestly, for me, like, a good coach. For all, for all of you guys, I think getting to the diagnosis should be the quickest and fastest part. You shouldn't be wasting your brain cells on that. Um, you, you guys already know before you even see the data. So, um, it's what happens after that coaches are what you guys are, you know, um, super valuable for as a, as a you know, from a student's perspective. So we're just trying to shortcut that process, help you get to that answer really, really fast, and get to a piece of data that you can look at to confirm your beliefs, and then let you get on with the lesson. So hopefully that's kind of the value that all of you guys are seeing in the product, and we're just trying to help shortcut that process. So, yeah. So, all right, let's go on, get on with the webinar. Terry, take it away, and I'll just I'll be here in the background. If I think of a question to ask, I might fire something your way. Otherwise, I'll be moderating the Q&A portion of this. If you guys look on the bottom row, you'll see the Q&A feature, and you guys can— yeah, you guys can ask away.

Okay, so let me see.

I can't remember.

Oh, there. Okay, so I'm just gonna go through here. So, I mean, I'm sure You know, in addition to— there's good memories there, isn't there? Jihye, it's back in Arizona where we did a lot of the early research. I remember you laying on the floor on the corner with a camera, like the true leader that you are.

Right.

I've got some good pictures from that day. So, I mean, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of people who, you know, haven't been in the first one. So, you know, what we're going to talk about today is there's different combinations of swing styles. you know, simplistically, I mean, 10,000-foot view, you know, all swings are the same. You know, everyone's got— well, not everyone, but most people have 2 arms, 2 legs. You know, they turn to the right, turn to the left, left hand's on top, right hand's at the bottom. Okay, fine. But, you know, when you get deeper and deeper and deeper into the weeds, you know, you potentially need more, you know, organized classifications that help you to say it's, it's that and not that. And, you know, so basically with 9 swings, we've got sort of 3 Upper body styles times 3. So it's a 3 by 3 matrix times 3 lower body styles. So if you look at the image, can you see that clearly?

No. So it says tap slide to go to the slide.

I don't know how to get that. Oh, there you go. Okay. Sorry about that.

And then when you swipe the zoom thing at the left bottom.

There we go.

Okay, good.

So if you look at these images, I mean, they represent not just the players in the pictures, but a bunch of other players you can see. If you go down the left side, for example, so Scheffler, Matsuyama, and Bill Haas there, we can see that their lower body is, you know, swayed more to the left side slightly. Whereas on the right side, we've got Oberg, Jordan Spieth, and Davis Love, who are more over their right leg with their lower body. And then from the top down, we can see Scheffler, Rory, and Oberg are more centered with their upper body. On top of the pelvis, whereas Bill Haas, Adam Scott, and Davis Love are slightly more behind it. And of course, King Tiger in the middle is the middle of everybody, not ironically. So, so that's sort of, you know, where we're at. I'm going to talk about how we decide about that. You know, here's basically, you know, 2 players who almost have similar careers, you know, similar size. But you can clearly see there's a very big difference just in terms of some of the numbers here. So we have the sway of the gray one is, you know, 4 inches to the right at the top. The purple one is 1.2 inches towards. So just at this level, you know, these, you know, highly specialized elite athletes, you know, we've got, you know, over 4 inches of sway difference at the top of the backswing. And in terms of sway gap, we got about 2 inches. So you can see as you look around, There'll be differences in terms of the elbow positioning is significantly different. Like I said, the pelvis, body, height of the elbow, depth of the elbow. We talked about how a backswing can have width, height, and depth, and you can clearly see the person in gray has more width and the person in purple has got more depth. I hope that makes sense. By the way, make sure— I might stop every 10 or 15 minutes and Let you ask questions, so please ask away. So what we call this is these differences are intrinsic dynamics. So you know your body naturally, and I hate to use that word because I really feel like when I say to somebody your natural swing, it really doesn't resonate very well. So if anybody's got a really good idea about what's a better way of saying it, you know intrinsic dynamics is you know how we move as individuals. And there's really good reasoning behind this. So for example, you can see the bottom picture of, you know, femoral head. You can see the hips go in at different angles. You know, for example, you know, I spent a lot of time with fitness trainers and what have you, and they talk about how you have to adjust squatting or deadlifting to accommodate, you know, different leg shapes and sizes, how the hips work differently. And it's completely normal within that environment that that's true. Now, in certain circles, if I say, you know, you should go to the left side really early, then, you know, a certain group of the population say, oh no, that's really bad, you know, small moment arm, you can't do that. Where on the other side of it, I say, well, you should load up on the right side, you know, for a longer period of time, bigger moment arm, then, you know, another set of the population will say, well, you know, you, you gotta get on the left side if you wanna control your load point and this and that. So, you know, we know that all, all different options exist, you know, because humans are different. And that's kind of where I'm gonna lead to and say, you know, we're different because we're built differently. And, you know, as, as those statements say, it's our natural coordination blueprint. And, you know, when we respect our, our natural coordination, our resources are increased in that we can You know, slip and still hit the ball, or you know, whatever it might be. You know, be in between clubs and and feel the distance and and things like this. Where if we're trying to squeeze ourselves into a different shape swing or you know, different characteristic that's less natural to us, it's very reasonable to think that we could potentially do it. You know, on a driving range where you know, there's definitely people who have said to me, very high level players. So you know, I can do whatever I want, which yeah, it's great. You can do exactly what you want on a Monday afternoon. But as we all know, when we get to the golf course, the available time to think about these things shrinks and we revert back to our natural patterns. So it's not just mechanical, it's not just the way that our body moves, it's the way that our brain and nervous system interacts with our body and the familiarity that we've had through many years of experience with this body. Got a picture of the arm and the shoulder there. So people's Arms rotate differently. You know, the shape of the the wrists and the shoulders is different. You know, I'm talking uninjured now. Clearly, you know, I come across a lot of people with injured shoulders, which is another variable. But we're talking about somebody with a you know healthy shoulder but has a different shoulder movement. Look at the guy up there. I would be in hospital if I did that right now. And we can see Jim Furyk obviously clearly his. Elbow works differently. Interestingly, I spent a little bit of time with Eric Gagne, who was a legend at the Dodgers. And, you know, we did similar testing for baseball. And I can guarantee you that Jim Furyk is not throwing a submarine because the throwing style was very, very closely kind of aligned to what we teach in golf. On-top golfers were more like four-seam throwers, pitchers. And the undergolfers were more 2-scene pitchers, for those of you who know that kind of thing. I don't really do. So, so then we say, you know, why do you swing like you do? What's natural for you? So I'm going to talk about that because, you know, I listen very carefully to, to responses of people that I describe this to. And, you know, just because it's natural doesn't mean it works. Okay. So, so this is where, you know, a lot of people that come in. I'll explain this sort of 4-quadrant concept. I made this on ChatGPT this morning, very proud as well. And I said, well, there's on the left side, we have movement quality. So things like sequencing, range of motion, power, strength, disassociation. If you want to sequence, you surely should be able to do different things with different parts of your body at different times. So anything which you can consider to be movement quality-based, but agnostic of swing technique. In terms of swing technique, moving along the bottom axis, we can talk about improving your grip and your alignment and your whatever swing plane. And in our case, it's matchups as to matching you up to your body's movement style. Now, clearly, A very unathletic, low technique beginner is is not going to do very well. But interestingly, if I were to say so, I first moved to San Francisco when I came over here and watched Barry Bonds. So for whatever reason, when I think of a good athlete in this case, I'll say well if Barry Bonds came to learn golf, you know it's not impossible to think that he might hit it, you know three hundred yards off the first tee, but then simultaneously go ahead and lose eighteen golf balls. Because, you know, as a, as a baseball player, you know, he has target orientation. I think pitchers are really good to teach. They have target orientation, they have sequencing, strength, rotational power, speed, you know, so tons of things that really benefit golf. But without swing technique and matchups, they're going to lose, you know, consistency. You can imagine if they hit it like 320 off the first and then, you know, lose the ball on the left on the second, then they're going to Hold their release off on the third, and they probably end up hitting it, you know, 220 by the time they get to the end of the round, and guiding around possibly. Now, on the other side of it, you know, I thought it was pretty funny that ChatGPT came up with golf teacher. Must have seen me in the in the in the screen. You know, so relatively good technique. So, you know, good consistency, ability to hit lots of different shots. Obviously, very high golf IQ, but you know, potentially not quite as strong or. Fast or mobile or sequences of tour play. So thinking about that as you improve. So one of the reasons I do this is absolutely to say that all types of golf improvement are valid. And we have these 9 combinations of things which potentially could go out into hundreds of different combinations. But it's possible to get better at golf if you improve your rhythm or you improve your sequencing or you get stronger. But you know, simultaneously you need to be, you know, improving technique. And it's totally reasonable to think that if you have a good grip but no flow and you have very low golf club awareness, you know, you're a beginner, you don't know how to hit the ground, things like this, then, you know, you're also going to struggle. So, so just to give a context to getting better at golf, there's a lot of different avenues. And obviously what I'm talking about here, you know, has been developed very, very much under the leadership and, uh, uh, you know, calibration with Mike. Mike, um, is, uh, you know, obviously a legend of golf instruction. And I'm going to talk about 2 different assessments here in terms of how we decide what to do with the lower body and what to do with the upper body. And they're both developed by Mike a while ago. And Mike has been a leading light in terms of, you know, having no real, uh, sort of allegiance to You know, making a swing look pretty, but definitely he's committed his life to to making things work in the most efficient way possible. So, as I said before, there's you know nine different archetypes, but at the same time, there's things that are true for everybody. I thought that was a pretty funny picture. Like everybody can do this, and there's Kyle Berkshire. Maybe not. You know. I did a presentation which is available online with Phil Cheatham, which was called, I think, Tracker Truths. There's certain things that everybody does clearly. As I said before, we mostly hold it left hand at the top and right hand at the bottom. There's more right-handers than left-handers. We turn our shoulders, we sway side to side, we bend over at the hips. So there's a lot of universal truths in golf.

Even for Kyle Berkshire.

Yeah, but that was the point, right? So, other things that all humans do, and then you have a picture of Karl Baksa, which is doing something which almost nobody does. But, you know, he's obviously— he's a niche example, right? I mean, if you want to get to the level of, you know, his sport, you've got to be N of 1 almost and find out what all these edges are. And obviously, with Bryson, that's what he's trying to do. So, you know, truths are, you know, chest and pelvis sway towards the target for the top, you know, chest sways away from the target, you know, through impact, pelvis is always more open. There's a few more, but these are just an example. So, you know, it's just a kind of an idea that, you know, as we're improving, you know, we're trying to blend all of this together, right? And so when, you know, like Mike and I talk about improving your grip or your setup or whatever, then, you know, it shouldn't be at the detriment of rhythm and tempo and timing and sequencing, right? And so, you know, a lot of the times when we're giving, uh, lessons, if we do something which is unfamiliar to the person, it may not work, right? Because they change their grip, but they stiffen up. And so the reality— so what I've been trying to do this year, uh, is to understand the totality in a way that I can communicate it and say, look, In the course of a golf lesson, in the course of practicing yourself, trying to get better, whilst you are improving technical aspects, you know, the best possible way to approach it is you make a single change and nothing else changes. But clearly, that's not the easiest thing in the world. So, you know, retaining the ability to, you know, have good rhythm, good grip pressure, whatever it might be, and at the same time, you know, improving your technical aspects—that's sort of the the way it is. But in the end, you know, the goal of all of this. is to improve, you know, probably the most important thing that people say is they want to become more consistent. And that's kind of what happens as the person, you know, improves their technique. But, you know, there's a, you know, short, medium, and long-term component to this in that, okay, fine, if I want to, you know, get better in 2 years, 5 years, 7 years, then we start to really break out and say, well, how do you practice? How's your strategy? You know, are you getting stronger month on month, year on year? Are you retaining, you know, injury prevention? You know, so there's lots of things go into it all. But, you know, within that, you know, Mike and I's position will be that if you don't match your technique to your— to the way that your body moves, your intrinsic dynamics, then you're going to struggle for, for all of those multiple years. So the first one, that we're going to talk about is how do we decide what to do, right? So I'm going to talk on top of this real quick and say we're at a very interesting time in golf instruction in terms of, you know, if we take a look over the totality of golf instruction history and we say, well, you know, in the old days, it was really the players that would give the lessons. You know, they'd probably talk about some of the aspects that they were doing themselves. You know, the players would talk amongst themselves, you know, so sort of their feels and experiences, you know, very outcome-based, you know. So then we got into different phases of technology, and, you know, the value of the teacher changed. I mean, the players got paid so much they didn't need to give lessons anymore, you know. And people like David Ledbetter and Butch Harmon, Jim McLean, Hank Haney, these guys, you know, became very popular and successful around the time of the video camera age and wrote books. And these books were some, you know, representation of what they were seeing. You know, so that was a phase. And, you know, as we moved through, we got more technology and this and that. So, so over time, you know, the way that we teach has changed, who's teaching has changed, and, you know, How we decide what to teach is basically it goes back to intrinsic dynamics, like what is going to be the most efficient way for this person to move? What is the thing that maximizes their hand-eye coordination, maximizes their rhythm, tempo, balance, ability to sequence energy through the body to the club, etc., square the face on time, etc., etc.? And again, I'm going to just reiterate that that for us is Finding out, you know, how people move. And, and so we can see here 3, 3 pros, you know. So basically we do a test whereby, you know, we— or an assessment is a better way. There's no failure. They're all just different outcomes. So we rest our hands on the shoulders, really not holding it that tight, but saying to the person, you know, could you swing your arms to the right, let the right arm fold? And we can see here there's 3 different versions of that. of that expressed. So we can see on the left side, that person has rotated their right forearm pretty much. The trail shoulder hasn't extended. So can you see me, Chihei, or can you just see the screen?

I can only see the screen.

OK, so let me just check out for a second. I'll give you some— how do I do that? Oops, don't stop screen. Okay, I hope this is it. Can you see me now? Nope, not quite.

Okay.

So that's so 2020, isn't it? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? So when we screen, what we're looking for is, you know, this movement here is called shoulder extension. And, you know, obviously this is supination. So there's some degree of, you know, supination and some degree of shoulder extension. So if everybody were to, you know, take their golf posture, for example, some people's shoulder extends and some people's forearm rotates like this. And so generally speaking, you know, just through the anatomy of the shoulder and the forearm and the way the bones work, somebody who rotates like this, if you do it yourself, you put your hand out like this and just put your hand to the sky, you'll feel that this elbow actually wants to pull in. And so, where if you pull this back, the hand actually almost wants to rotate in the opposite direction. So the, the 2 movements are kind of incompatible with each other. So, you know, assuming somebody's moving relatively freely in their golf posture to get the right angle. I mean, if you stand up, everybody rotates. If you bend over 90 degrees, everybody, you know, shoulder extends. But, you know, again, like my, one of my Secondary sort of goals here is just to make sure that you know the people that have said well you know that doesn't really work and this and that. You know there there is a skill to assessing and there's a system to you know doing the assessment whereby you know we make sure that somebody's pretty much in the golf posture, their hands stay together. It's actually you know hard to to get people sometimes to do it correctly, but we have to describe it correctly. So you put your hands together, you swing your arms freely to the right and see. where their shoulder goes. Now, I'm sitting up here, my arm goes down like this, but that's not the way mine works when I'm in my golf posture. So anyway, so that's just to say, when you assess, that's what we're looking at. And—

Will you share screen again?

Yeah, I'm doing it right now. Here we go. Okay. So we can see 3 different styles there. So what does that mean? Well, the first thing I'm going to talk about in this first section is hand path. And you can see a pretty big difference. So blue, blue line is hand path, yellow line is head path. Now there's a reason why we use Sportsbox. These angles are not very good. But, you know, I remember the comments on the first time I showed this. I thought I'd show again just for fun. Clearly, it's a different camera angle, but I don't think camera angle can really explain the difference between these 2 swings. So we can see if you look at, you know, Jon Rahm's got that kind of hold the pizza look where his elbow is in front of his shirt seam, which is, you know, one of the outcomes, and his right hand is rotated under the shaft. And we can see clearly Scottie Scheffler's, you know, right elbow has traveled much more around his body. We can clearly see his bicep, and the path that it traveled to get there is very different to, you know, you know, John Rahm. So interestingly, the, you know, the curve that the head of the— or the center of mass and the head of the club takes is a relatively narrow corridor. So it's kind of interesting how the human body accommodates the, you know, the needs of the golf club and at the same time its own intrinsic dynamics. So what does that mean? So how do we accommodate the arm folding test, for example. So we can see on the left side, again, it's something that's not very sexy, but it's very necessary. So if you want your joints to move in a certain way, it is necessary to line them up in the way that they move like that. And so if you look at the grips and the arm structures on the left, for example, we can see top left is Rory. His elbows actually almost point away from each other. which facilitates more shoulder extension. Connecting the arms to the body makes it really hard to move the arms in the right way for him. So we can see basically the purpose of those grips is to say, you know, Rory is like strong left, weak right, all the way down to the bottom right, which is Collin Morikawa, which is weak left, strong right. And, you know, the different grips accommodate the different arm movements. And then really crazy on the bottom right there is Brandon Steele, strong left, strong right. And Bryson at the top, weak left, weak right. So there's lots of different types of grips. You know, I've heard lots of people say grip isn't a fundamental. No, but it's a tool for you to create, you know, anatomical movements. You know, so if there's certain things you want to do with the club, But it's incompatible with the orientation of the joints, then you know the grip matters. And for us, there is you know one of those grips is the one that works best with your body's dynamics, and that's what we teach now. We can see on the right is Sander Schoffele. You know his club is much more kind of perpendicular to his spine, different handle heights. And actually, in his case, whether you grip in the fingers or the palm really does affect the way that the arms work. And so he's matched up perfectly there with a little bit more distance from the ball, taller posture, and higher hands, which is going to facilitate more of that arm rotation style that we saw. And then we've got Ludvig Åberg on the left here, who's got his hands much lower, arms are hanging down more vertically. And so that's going to facilitate more of the arm, you know, the shoulder extension style. And, you know, it really does affect the, you know, the hand path to the head path. So the head is going to stay outside of the hands, which are going to be moving deeper into the backswing. Does that all make sense? So grip is very important for us. You know, the right grip enables you to swing, you know, your swing. And the face will square at the right time. The shape of the swing, you know, power efficiency, all that stuff improves if you line the joints up in a way that supports the way that your body moves. Some things you can look at address in terms of sports box, you know, chest bend is a big one. You can see that, you know, those angles a little bit different for Rory and Xander. Shaft angle and chest turn. So we can see here Rory's bent over a little bit more and his chest is more open. That's more in line with somebody who's more of a, you know, what we call an on-top golfer, where their shoulder extends and the face rotates less. You know, you start getting into things like, you know, these numbers as absolute. So, you know, Jihei mentioned at the start of the presentation that we could You know, potentially have ranges. Now the challenge is one of the biggest influences on a lot of the numbers is just general size, right? If you're a really big person or a small person, you know, you're going to see differences. These two guys are about the same height. So, and then handle height again, you could look at that in terms of shaft angle at address. And you know, I'd be looking at, I mean, different levels of players recently. You know, it's kind of Q school time. I've had a few guys. reach out, you know, I'm not playing very well, you know, can you look at my swing? I used to swing like this. And so we'd go through it. And, you know, ideally, you know, one of the ways you can use Sportsbox is as a sort of a best practice tool to say, ah, you know what, when you, when you were playing well, you know, your posture was like this, or your handle height was this. But handle height and, you know, kind of the angle between the arms and the club has a really big effect on hand path, which we're going to talk a little bit more about. and the way in which the arms work. So we can see, you know, we get to the top of the backswing here, really clear difference between, you know, the way that Shane Lowry's elbow has worked and the way that Adam Scott's elbow has worked. If you have some— I mean, they've both got white shirts on, but if you can understand the shirt seam, you know, and how Adam Scott's elbow is to the right side of his shirt seam and Shane Lowry's has moved behind it. And this is not— just shoulder mobility. It is, is kind of their shoulder dynamics, intrinsic dynamics of the shoulder that's caused that. And it's interesting that we can see the result of the test pretty much at the top of the backswing. You know, early in the backswing, it's tricky because there's lots of reasons why people swing. So it's a little bit messy at the start of the backswing because we got, you know, some people's chest is more open, we got different shot choices. You know, aims. I find that it's much easier to change the look of your backswing, like, early, but as you get to the top of the backswing, it really becomes clear that the, you know, what your style is, let's say. We can see clearly here, you know, Collin Markhauer's lead arm is out off of his body, and his right elbow is, is pushed a little bit more out towards that. So more externally rotated. Rory's more internally rotated. I just brought this one because it's kind of cool. Old Rory swing. Lead arm is much closer to his body. So this is much more the style of an on-top golfer where the, you know, the pressure on the club is very different. Yeah. So, so that's sort of what we're looking at. Mike calls it— that's what I want to say is Mike Adams calls this linkage. So we're going to see the, you know, the position and orientation of the arm look very different at this point in the swing.

Yeah, go ahead. On that last picture, it's like very different, um, kind of distance from hands to their right thigh. What is it? What do you attribute that to in terms of matchups?

Well, if you go back, um, If you look at the, you know, hand path depth, on the right is Paul Casey, on the left is Adam Scott. If you go from— let's assume they stood addressed similarly. Can you imagine the number of inches hand path depth difference there? I mean, that's probably what, about 4 or 5 inches? And so, you know, that manifests itself in the golf swing that, you know, the hand path gets deeper relative to the spine. like in Scottie Scheffler, for example, versus Jon Rahm. And as it comes down, it's coming from a deeper place, if that makes sense. And so consequently, you know, the arms are still, you know, across the body more so than they are the undergolfer like Morikawa. You know, somebody like— oops— like Adam Scott, for example, somebody says, well, you got to keep your arms in front of your chest. That's true of Adam Scott, but it's not true of you know, Paul Casey, you know, Rory McIlroy, for example, uh, Collin Morikawa, Adam Scott, who else have we got, um, would— it would be true. Does that make sense? So, so the hand path, you know, the hands are moving across the body more, and they haven't yet moved out, uh, in Rory's case, and, and the orientation of elbow is a little bit different. So, so that's, that's pretty much the reason is, um, you know, through the way that their arm is folding, it's, it's just in a different place, it's applying force a little bit differently. And so his, you know, it's like Sergio, you know, Rory's club's in the process of kicking out there where Colin's hand path is going to go, you know, more down the target line.

Got it. Cameron had another question. I've been waiting for this book since, infamous book since first you did it during the pandemic. Any update?

Have you written a book? It's really easy to write a book, by the way. And it's even easier to write a book in an industry that's so supportive of everybody. It's just, you know, it's a lot of details. And unfortunately, in the same time, you know, SportsBots came out, so they filled us with new data. So more work to be done. No, it's getting there. I'm working really hard at it. You know, it's just there's no actual date other than make it good. So it's going to be good. It's It's a very technical book, right? And when you make it technical, you have to make it correct. I mean, the, you know, the— I don't see— I mean, I'm trying to think who's come out with a really technical swing book recently. I don't think anyone really does it anymore because they just get shot down in flames. So anyway, so to answer the question—

It'll get done when it'll get done.

No, it's getting there. Unfortunately, both Mike and I, you know, have a full-time job and You know, and we're just coming off of a busy summer. So soon, it's much closer than it ever has been.

We're keeping him busy with things like this. So.

Yeah. But yeah, this helps, you know, you can, you know, they help each other. So, so when we look at the follow-through, you know, I've been seeing a lot of similar movements in the follow-through. It's kind of new, newer over the last few years. I've been looking at the follow-through a lot more. You know, kind of release follow-through. You know, if you look at these two videos, for example, you can see as Butch Brooks' right arm extends, his lead wrist extends, and then his trail elbow—sorry, trail shoulder extends. So his elbows really don't cross that much. Whereas somebody like Xander, for example, as his right arm extends, his lead arm stays, it rotates and stays in front of his shirt seam more. And so we can see that there's more lead hand supination than it is shoulder extension. So we're seeing some of the similarities in the follow-through in those 2 different styles. And so when we— oops— when we look at that, what we'll see is we'll see hand thrusts, hand path differences in the follow-through. Bryson's very similar to Brooks in that regard. You know, because the hands travel further around, you know, interesting the club doesn't. So Jack Nicholas used to say he likes to keep the club shaft between his elbows and the you know more of the on top style of Bryson or Chef Low Rory. You know, the the shaft doesn't really get behind the you know the the trail arm in the backswing or the lead arm in the follow through, where you know people that keep their arms more in front of their body, the the club head will get. outside their arms. So it'd be a lot more rotation. And we can see here, you know, paying attention to follow-through is really important. Sometimes I have success teaching follow-through, and then it reverse engineers the backswing. You know, so I have a saying, hookers always hook, slicers always slice. And on-top golfers tend to hook it when they send their hand path too much down the target line. So afraid of hooking it, so they sort of Hold it off, you know. So allowing the club to release and the hands to go left like Brooks, you know. Brooks actually doesn't lock his lead arm in the follow-through, so that's sort of a soft landing for his right arm extension. So so this could be really interesting for some people to work on, and again, always very interesting if you have somebody that has played well in the past and wants to play well in the future, and you can go back and look at it. Some examples of you know, what I call hand path to head path. As I said before, you know, when you, you have a certain type of shoulder movement, then it usually correlates to a certain type of forearm movement, and you'll see different shapes of, you know, hand paths and head paths. So we can see on the left side, that would be a pretty neutral style. Right side would be a little bit more like, you know, micro John Ram. I can't remember who that one was. we can see that the club's slightly laid off, uh, hand path is above the head path. Uh, on the right side is a super interesting one because I know, you know, there's a lot of people talk about getting the hand path deeper as a, as a fundamental, but that's Tyrrell Hatton, and that was a— it was probably like an 8-iron or 7-iron or something, and he had about 1 inch of hand path depth. It's almost vertical if you look at that yellow line. It's quite insane. And then, you know, he has very supple wrists and, you know, is able to shallow the club in transition to get some clubhead depth, which is kind of interesting.

That looks crazy. What's his turn numbers like?

Yeah, so that's a really good question. Well, let me talk about hand path depth generally, you know. So in putting this together, it's like, okay, Relatively, um, you know, like an absolute hand path number is a combination of factors, right? Is how much do you turn, which is a great comment. Uh, you know, how thick is your chest, right? If you think of Terrell Haney, he's got— he seems like he's a little bit thicker chest, so your arm won't get across your chest as much. If you're inflexible, your arms won't go across. If you have a, you know, injured shoulder, um, you know, so there's a lot of reasons why the hand path won't get deeper, but If you take all of those and level them and say, okay, as a single variable, you know, the arm folding style is a huge influence on hand path depth. But as an absolute number, you have to be a little bit careful, of course, because, you know, you could be relatively inflexible. Like, you know, Jon Rahm won't have a ton of hand path depth, right? He's got a short turn, he's a thick chest, and he's an undergolfer, you know, very similar to, to Hatton actually in that way. So, you know, hand path is really important in terms of this. But, you know, like I say, you have to have slight caveat because, you know, chest thickness is a really big deal and turn quantity, as you said. So yeah, it makes a difference. I think he's like, you know, he's probably like 82-ish in my memory. So, so Yeah, so hand path was a big deal, driven by the way the arm folds or rotates, or the trail arm, or the lead arm, or the follow-through. Sway gap is another really big one. So sway gap is actually the variable that defines the 9 archetypes, really. There is just a— there's 9 different sway gaps, basically. So we can see here, there's a yellow line protruding out of the center of the pelvis. And there's a blue line protruding out the center of the chest cavity, and those are calculated. Anything you wanna say about how they're calculated, Jihei?

Yeah, just the distance between the yellow and the blue line in inches.

Yeah. So, yeah, right. So in old school terms, you know, you could call it a T setup and a K. So we got Xander doing the K on the right with 2 inches, Scheffler with the 1 inch on the right. And usually, you know, there are more than one variable. I mean, we understand that the pelvis, you know, moves towards the target before the top of the backswing. And, you know, depending on the player, it can be much earlier or much later, but everybody's moving before. So depending if their pelvis is moving really early, you're going to see an increase in the swing gap. But generally speaking, you know, more or less it's, you know, plus or minus about the same at the top of the backswing if they're well matched up. So if, if you see somebody with like a, you know, 0.5 sway gap at address and then they're, you know, 3 inches at the top, you know, they probably should have been, I guess, I mean, without assessing, you know, 2.5 at address too. So, you know, you have to remember golf is a rotational sport. We're going to do our best to rotate around our spine. And, you know, if we set up in the right, you know, inclination address, we're able to rotate. So Scheffler going from 0.9 to 0.5, they basically call it the same. He's able to rotate. If somebody is starting out at 0 and they're 3 inches at the top of the backswing, they've— they haven't, you know, purely rotated around the spine. They've also translated. So it's a little less efficient. And it's very interesting again because you can have somebody like Xander here who's— I mean, obviously that's a driver. I probably should have put a driver for Sheffer because now I'm going to get roasted. Can't compare a driver and iron. So generally speaking, the, you know, the number is similar in between, you know, in the same person. It's not such a big difference between driver and iron as you might think.

You know, here's Rory.

I think he's hitting a, you know, like a 3-wood down the last hole at East Lake there. So relatively low sway gap, 1.1. It's fractionally lower than average, very similar at the top of the backswing, you know, very much in line with his style. And relatively lower impact, actually. It probably means he was hitting it a little bit lower. Again, that's Xander with the iron. Fortunately, he's got the same numbers as his driver. So that's my, that's my point. The, the sway gap is much more of a matchup to your folding style and less so of a matchup to your club. It is, you know, when you look at the sway gap at impact there, 8.2, you know, versus 4.7 for Rory, that would indicate to me that Rory's probably hitting a slightly lower you know, maybe a cut shot, where a bigger one at impact, you know, is indicating more of a draw shot. What do you see with sway gap? I mean, you've done a lot of work with Bryson and other things. Jihae, have you been seeing impact sway gap changes for shapes?

For sure. I mean, this is an exaggerated, exaggerated example, but like at the Open, he was trying to hit these Literally like 0-degree launch, um, fingers. And, you know, that's when he got his swing gap super narrow. But, um, for Bryson, he's, uh, generally, you know, he stays tall and, and right, like minimal swing gap throughout the swing. He just kind of spins around himself.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, Yeah, so sway gap. And, you know, so early on with Sportsbox, we were brainstorming, you know, what, what should we look at in terms of what things affect swing direction? And, you know, it's really hard to, to, to separate swing direction and attack angle, right? So if you're going to have somebody who, you know, uses sway gap to swing to the right, it's usually going to shallow out their angle of attack. A really good example on the, on the right here of how As an undergolfer, Xander's, you know, got a relatively weak left-hand grip, and he's turning it down with his left hand, so we don't see any knuckles. So very much more like a supination kind of release. That's just a sidebar. Rory there, a little bit stronger left hand for Rory. Also, you can see Rory's lead arm is— Rory's lead arm is more at the target versus Xander's a little bit more down towards his hip. So that's the upper body. I mean, there's, there's many variables, but, you know, as regards to, you know, Mike says setup writes the script. You know, there's a lot of setup variables that, that I'm just trying to get out of this for a second to see if there's any questions. Any questions?

Not— well, Peter asked very early on, any plans to diagnose our swing type like We can now with the swing score. Not at the moment, unfortunately. These kind of body movement tests are more difficult to do.

So— Yeah, again, it's like, you know, when we used the example of Kyle Berkshire earlier, there is ever more intricate interactions, which is why there will always be golf coaches. You know, when we start talking about some of the things we're talking about, you know, shoulder extension, forearm rotation, wrist angles, it's, um, you can infer it in some ways in, in the way in which the body moves, but definitely it's, uh, it's very tricky to measure. And, you know, um, even optical motion capture systems, which are, you know, multiple hundred thousand dollars, they haven't been able to really measure everything about the hands and the wrists. So.

All right, Mark, I see that you've raised your hand. If you want to use the Q&A, uh, function to ask questions. And same thing with you, Eric. If you guys have questions, please use the Q&A functionality at the bottom.

So I'll summarize the upper body. So upper body, you have some people shoulder extends, lower rotation. We call that on top, on top. Some people, they supinate more, elbow doesn't move anywhere near as much. We call that under. Imagine there's like a ball here, under the ball, on top of the ball, that's Mike. And then some people are right in the middle. We call that on the side. There's actually a very low number in, in the, on the side, but, you know, the ones we can talk about pretty good, like Tiger, Justin Rose, Max Homer looks pretty close to the middle. You know, most people are on the sides, and so it's kind of interesting. You know, yes, we have, you know, very general things that people do, but, you know, generally people are not all in the middle, even if the average is in the middle. So now when we, when we then look at that and say, well, how do I summarize that? So, you know, very clear movement differences, you know, so somebody who has an understyle, their hand path is gonna be more vertical. You know, if you look back at someone like Jim Hardy, you had steepeners and shallowers, steeper hand path. Interestingly, and these are all just naturally occurring observations, right? We didn't invent this. They tend to tilt more to the right. They have more of a K setup. They tend to have their hands a bit higher, which facilitates more arm rotation versus, you know, if I bend over more, it facilitates more shoulder extension. And so when you start looking at swings that are less functional, you have to clean, you know, sort of sort it out in your head is like which pieces suit the person and which which are mismatches. And, you know, the, uh, as I said, the hand path is more vertical, the, the head path is flatter. So somebody who is under is going to have, you know, more vertical hand path, flatter shaft plane. Somebody who's more on top is going to have a deeper hand path, slightly steeper, uh, plane. You know, if it continues on, it's going to potentially get a little bit across the line. Somebody who's more under is a little bit more laid off. As we saw, follow-through, you know, more this style. So weaker left hand, more rotation for a lot of undergolfers, you know, very much. So as the, as the trail arm extends, which it basically does in every golfer, does the shoulder extend as that extends, or does the, you know, upper arm rotate, forearm rotate, in which case you're going to have more this kind of look. So more like the Phil Mickelson crossing of the arms. Absolutely nothing wrong with either of them. It, you know, it's just ideal to match up to what you need. And then we have grip matchups, you know, so somebody who's more on top, we're going to have potentially a stronger left, weaker right. Under, you're going to have, you know, more under, slightly more on the palm to facilitate that, but that's not absolute, right? So we go, you know, there's 9 swings, but, you know, we also have ABC. Are you somebody who, like Morikawa, is under but hits fades, and there's some slight adjustments, or are you someone like Bryson who's, you know, an on-top golfer, but hits draws, you know. So though those change, but you can still see their movement characteristics within the styles. So, okay.

John asks, how do you cue a player who plays with their natural grip but their fold doesn't work?

Uh, well, assuming the natural grip is what they're tested as, I guess, but their fold doesn't work. Yeah, I mean, that's what, you know, we do in lessons, right? I mean, a golf A golfer is a walking box of PTSD, right? And when we start playing, we have a whole bunch of mismatched and inefficient movement patterns. And we sort of muscle it around. And as we become better at golf, we disassociate body parts. We're able to sequence things. And stiff arms is part of that sort of defense mechanism that we guided it around and whatever. You know, so if you can match up, you know, things like your posture and your sway gap and your, you know, distance from the ball and your grip and things like that, then you need to learn to disassociate. And I mean, many, many, many, many lessons, you know, people eventually feel that they're— they get permission to be more armsy, you know, more wristy. And as long as the grip and the movements and the rotation and things like this are supporting, you know, that, then that purely is an accumulator of speed and quality of contact, in my opinion. Where, you know, if you're at a middle range of golf, you're probably going to have some stiffnesses in there that, you know, need to get learned out or freed up, or, you know, maybe there's a paradigm shift in there to help it. So.

All right. Sherry has asked for a handout of what you just described. So the kind of the, the style. So that's just a—

Yeah, it's going to be in the book. And then that's a handout.

Mark has asked, other coaches have pointed out that everything of importance for golf ball happens in the space of 1 inch and that increasing one's awareness of the head impact is most important. Your approach with Sportsbox dives into mechanics. Your thoughts?

Uh, yeah, I think that's a very, uh, good conversation to have, to be honest with you. I find We could be here all night. Okay, so the modern world, I didn't quite finish earlier, you know, we went from players teaching to teachers teaching to film to whatever. And, you know, the question is, where do we intervene in instruction, right? And personally, you know, so the launch monitor for me is a very dangerous place to intervene. Because it's at the end of a series of events. So for example, I could have a closed clubface at address, and the ball in theory should go to the left, but I don't let it. You know, I drag the handle and I hang back and the ball goes to the right. And then you go for a lesson and you say, oh, I'm hitting it to the right. But, you know, while you're swinging to the right and the face is open, it's like, well, okay, so square the face and, you know, swing more left. And then suddenly you unlock this block and bam, like that whole face closes. And you hit a snap hook. So, you know, on some level, you know, I call that layers, right? And so, golfers are all like all these layers of compensations, and we call that defense versus offense. So, defense is you've got, you know, multiple mismatching things that somehow result in an outcome. That's one way of teaching is to say, oh, you know what, let's take the, you know, the launch monitor numbers and work backwards. But I personally find that to be incredibly inefficient. Um, you know, it's not that we ignore it, but it's, it's not the, the order in which we teach. So what we say is, okay, you know, given maximum hand-eye coordination, degrees of freedom, you know, sequencing, balance, rhythm, tempo that come from swinging more like yourself, your brain can, can solve, you know, some of those pieces, you know, as long as the setup. So for example, we, we start with, uh, understanding how you should move, and then, which is Very consistent, and then build your your setup and grip and aim stance. You know, and give you permission to move your way. And we usually find that you know face contact, path, face angle, speed—all of those improve simultaneously versus you know when we work at the other end of the chain. You've mismatched. You know, close face, hold it off. You could fix contact. but you lose face. You fix face, but you lose speed. So you end up chasing your tail a little bit in terms of trying to get there. So I mean, clearly it's impossible to disagree that impact is the most important thing, but impact doesn't cause impact, right? And I'm sitting here arguing that respecting our intrinsic dynamics and understanding how these different dynamics affect when the face squares up, what angles you swing at, whether you swing a higher plane, lower plane, left, right, whatever. All of those is possible to understand before the person hits the ball. And it's possible to deal with that in a way that then causes the face to be square more often. So that's our approach, is to fix the person first and apply it to that last inch second. And, and not, you know, try and juggle too many things around impact because it's, it's, it's, you know, in my opinion, it's too late. So yeah.

Yeah, impact doesn't cause impact. I like that.

Yeah. And that's where, you know, Sportsfox has really helped us to move back in the chain, right? I think it's very important. And, you know, if you look at, you know, golf instruction over time and, you know, people come back to the easiest possible intervention is before you move, right? And changing setup. You know, so Sportsbook's given us the opportunity to see what we did to cause that impact, and including setup metrics. And, you know, I'm not just teaching setup, but, you know, in my opinion, like, there's things that you can do that, you know, enable you to go out and play golf without having to remember to square the face.

So unfortunately, we've run out of time. But Terry, it sounds like we're gonna have to do this again. This is part—

As usual.

Of many. So we're gonna save these questions for later. Jacob and Matt, I'm sorry we didn't get to your questions, but I'm gonna save them. Maybe we can do a social media post on these. Cool. Well, thanks everybody for joining today, and We'll hear from Terry again very soon. And so—

We have to do another part 2.

Exactly. All right. Thank you, Terry. Thanks, everybody.

I'll keep it more concise next time. Thanks, Jihei. All the best.

All right. Bye, everybody.