What's up? DTC Pod today it's just me and Ramon and there's been a whole bunch going on in the DTC consumer commerce sort of world in the last couple of months. So we figured we'd do an episode and we just kind of chatter out, chat about some of our favorite topics. So Ramon, I'll let you kick us off. What what do you want to talk.

About taking over here? Alright, well know, recently we did the Pod with Sydney from Lightspeed and we talked about Chinese ecommerce. I've kind of always surfaced Chinese ecommerce, but have never really taken a deep dive. And I think we should talk about it because I was kind of skeptical of live shopping in the US. But then whatnot was like number one in the top rated marketplaces by Andreessen Horowitz? And so that made me take a deeper look. Downloaded the app, still kind of don't get it because I'm like people just randomly pop into these lives of people in their closet. But I guess they do it's the fastest growing marketplace and I don't know many people I found this, I don't know if it was in your LinkedIn or something. You worked for Amazon China?

I did, back in the day. This is when commerce was totally different. When I was there, there were obviously the major players. Amazon was dealing with a tough branding problem because in China, the pronunciation for Amazon is actually Yamashuan, which translates to pile of horseshit. So they were going through a whole yeah, it was like a major struggle. So they were going through a whole trying to rebrand against 360 Buy and Taobao and a couple of these other platforms. So they were going from Amazon to z. CN. But again, this was what, like 2011, 2012? And they stopped operating in that market a while ago. So it's just been interesting to see the evolution. And I think clearly what we're seeing is before D to C brands, they would be called direct to consumer.

Right?

But it was really someone putting a branding play going, finding a Chinese manufacturer, importing the goods as the middleman and selling it online to a consumer. And I think what some of these marketplaces like you're talking about that we're really seeing is it's really like the Chinese factory going direct to the American consumer?

Well, I mean, let's talk about that. Like the stages, right? The first stage is made in China. Everything is made in China. Second stage is it is sold by China. So these manufacturers are saying, wait a minute, we can try and go directly up to these customers. That's when wish started popping up in those kind of marketplaces. And then China itself also doing the marketing and the customer acquisition. There was this app, I forget the name, tin Temu. Actually they had a Super Bowl commercial and that's when I first learned about it. Just crazy cheap prices. I don't know what the quality is like. But what's interesting about that is this marketed by China Concept, that's almost what my friend Jeremy at Italic is doing. So technically he kind of is a middleman, but he's not because he's allowing the manufacturers of high end retailers to sell the goods directly from the manufacturer to the consumer. And he's kind of giving them the entire technology to manage a consumer. It's like shopify b. Two B for Chinese manufacturers. And it's interesting because we've only seen this marketed by China Concept take off with like AliExpress Wish, DHgate, Tamu, Sheen, like only low quality, right? And so what is the markup? What is the price of the higher end and the curation? Is that the differentiator from what italic is doing? And is that something that China themselves can do?

Well, I think one of the important things is who is the American consumer and what do people actually want, right? So I think what a lot of D to C brands have done a really good job of is like spinning up a really high quality product, or at least really high quality in terms of brand. Maybe the sourcing is great and all of this, but at the end of the day, if you look at America and who the shopper is, right, value still reigns supreme. People want value. People want a bunch of stuff like America. No matter how much we talk about how we want to transition to a more environmentally conscious shopping environment, et cetera, we're a big country and there's a lot of shoppers who just want a whole bunch of stuff for a really cheap price. And so I think that like, you were talking about like Temu, for example, and a lot of these vertically integrated sellers, what they're able to do is really just Target and even Amazon, right? I think Amazon is the best example of it, where Amazon is just a marketplace. But I always call it the Chinese swap market or the Chinese swap market because it's just all these Chinese retailers that can go on there, put on their products for a super cheap price. And when you're searching for utility on a search platform like Amazon, you're just going to buy what has an available price and decent rating. You're not caring as much about brands. So I think these vertically integrated retailers are really kind of taking the market by storm here.

The biggest gap though, is like it's just crazy to me how the Chinese can understand well, they're getting a better understanding of the US consumer, right? Like it was AliExpress. Now you're seeing more penetration from Shane and all these other is that how you say it? Shane, shein shine. Okay, that's how you say it in Chinese. So yeah, you're seeing more penetration. It's more so like they're understanding more the consumer behaviors. Are you familiar with Pin Duo? Duo, that is one of the fastest growing ones. I heard their breakdown on the acquired FM podcast. And what's fascinating about that is it's a community. So Chinese communities are really tight and they sort of pool money together so they can get it from wholesalers. Do you think that could work in the US? Do you think there's like a cultural barrier of like, I'm not asking my neighbor if they want to buy toilet paper today.

So actually funny, like being in startup land, you've tried everything right and back. Actually, when we're starting seeded and we're transitioning to seeded, our whole concept was like groups, right? And getting them together and doing things. So obviously we ultimately became restaurants and restaurant deals and rewards. But before that, we actually tested this concept called Vocal Buy, which was like a group buying thing. It was like the hardest thing in the world to do because exactly what you're saying is we would go to these merchants and be like, hey, if I get a whole bunch of people to buy in on this deal, would you sell? And they're like, yeah, that sounds good. And then I went to actually try to do this group buying thing and that's just not how Americans shop. Again, this was like ten years ago. And sure, maybe things will evolve, but I've seen so many different reincarnations of that and I just think it's a hard thing to do when people want something, especially the American consumer. They're pretty discerning buyers and they want what they want when they want it.

Yeah. It's contradictory from Amazon's core value being faster and faster delivery. And that alone has turned it into the juggernaut. It is. So this kind of adds more friction to the buying process, which goes against consensus of what makes ecommerce work in America.

But I mean, crowdfunding there's definitely like impulse shopping behaviors, for sure. I think with the advent of mobile, being able to do it in real time, if you're able to see a deal and you see a product you like and you're like, oh shit.

It could work for expensive products, right? Like a trip or something? Like, hey, if me and my friends, three of my other friends book this Airbnb for separate times or something, but we'll pay up front, you have the incentive to save a grand or whatever on a specific product. But it's just wild the numbers that some of these are pulling, because this company shine 30 billion in sales in 2022, projecting 80 billion in 2025. It's just bananas.

Yeah. And I mean, my favorite thing that shein does that a lot of the founders that will have on DTC Pod, they always talk about how product iteration cycles are a little bit slower in D to C, so they're like getting customer feedback and they're turning it around. Yeah. The reason Shine grew so fast is because they own the whole supply chain and they're totally vertically integrated. So they're vertically integrated from their landing page and their PDP. So they're gathering the data. They're understanding, literally what's selling, and then they're manufacturing it on the back end. And they have the infrastructure to go from product test and iteration to manufacturing, shipping, and owning the whole thing pretty instantly. You just see the numbers?

It's child labor, infrastructure. There's like A weird ethical component to it, though, at the same time. But at the same Time, it's like you don't know what you don't know. So that's Why People Like, sure, you might Hear that there's something Going on, but you don't know for sure. So you're like, whatever. It's $5 for this shirt. I don't know. I don't have to feel Guilty About this because I haven't seen that or I have no clue how These products are Made. And most people don't even question it. Because most people that aren't ecommerce, that are consumers, they just don't know what it takes to get the cost down of something to $5.

Yeah, they just want What They Want, and that's about it. And maybe you'll see more of like a bifurcation where I think we've even seen it right. Like, you have Things That You're brand conscious about, and if you're shopping at the brand Level, you Want Things that maybe aren't made In China and are Made With Higher quality standards and all this kind of stuff. And if you're looking at it from a utility Perspective, you just need A Tool, and you need it now. And you go to Amazon or you can go to one of these marketplaces. Like think about shopping for a Halloween costume. Do you care if it's, like, the best quality Halloween costume?

No.

You're going to wear it once, right? That's it, right? And there's so many.

So what do you think is going to play out? That China is just going to come in here and grab all the consumers and sell directly to them for lower cost. Or do you think there's going to be a brand element and we just understand the consumers better and know how to build better brands and social relevancy is more important.

I think that it's hard to crack. Kind of what we were talking about in terms of price. Right. Like so many D to C brands. The reason they start D to see is because that's where their customers are. But then they all want to go retail. They have to trim their margins down. Now they're all really pumped when they're selling in Walmart, which is like a bulk retailer where price is a key driver, you know what I mean? So I think the way the market will kind of play out from the consumers perspective is I think consumers will be discerning about the things that they really care about and the things that they want to last a long time. But for other, more utilitarian sort of things. I think they'll just get what's cheap, fast and available. We see it with Amazon right. Yeah, I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff. If you need a phone case or, like, a screen protector, a plug to plug in and charge your phone. You're not really thinking about your brand? You're like.

Okay.

Does it have it going to get here fast. And I think that's what China has been able to kind of capitalize on. The other thing. I think this kind of transitions well into one other thing that we've been talking about in the street wear side of things. Right. And how? Shoppers. Shop? But think about supreme. Right. I know It Came Out this week that Their Revenue has Been on a massive decline and Everything and The Last couple Of Years has Been this massive era of logos and brands of supreme off white.

Yeah. Your entire closet is supreme.

I don't know.

That was a joke. Anyways. Keep going.

But yeah, I think that it kind of pairs with that. Right? It's like before. Everything was about logo, logo, logo. Here's where I am. And now people are kind of almost looking for more. Just like yeah. What do you think about that whole trend?

Well, I mean, what do you think?

Are the macro drivers?

I think fashion is, like, insanely tough. I think fashion is heavily driven by trends. And to stay on top of the trends, you have to be sold tight to culture. First of all, this company VF Corp owns supreme. I thought it was Louis Vuitton that bought it. Or LVMH. Maybe LVMH owns VF Corp. I don't know. I looked up VA Corp. 13 billion in revenue based out of Denver. Pretty Crazy. But, like, you know, if you ask anyone name ten high quality, high end brands, people say the same ones. Gucci, louis Vuitton, dior. And how many brands are there in the world? Thousands and thousands. And the fact that you can name ten and most people will probably name the same ten says a lot of how hard it really is to remain that relevant. And so supreme was started by this guy supreme in Fairfax. In La. Where all the skateboard kids were. And once it got bought out, the founder was like, I'm out. And so the people that bought it were like, oh, this is already embedded into culture. This is going to be a money printing machine. And yeah, every kid was sort of rocking supreme. But what happens when you remove the culture that brought up that brand? It's really hard to keep that there. And I think that's what happened. I think you look at their instagram count. 13 million. There's other brands that are rising way above that. Like Fear of God has stayed super relevant. Jerry Lorenzo, who's a creative director there supreme. Just got bought out by private equity or whatever. And I just think street wear operates differently than most other clothing brands.

Well, yeah. And what you were talking about are trends, right? Like, Trends Move and they're so tied to culture. And if in a lot of the brand of supreme, you think about the logo, it's like loud, it's like red white supreme, like everything right? And even like a brand like off white or something like these louder sort of brands. And then if culture is moving, it's like a pendulum and it goes back and forth. And if now you're moving more towards a more discrete luxury, right? Like even on the street wear side, you see brands like I'm a Leon Door and a couple of others sort of popping up that people are really liking. But they're great quality, they're cool and they target that same sort of person, but they're a little bit more low key. And it just seems from a street wear and a fashion perspective, the pendulum always swings and that could also be something tying into it.

Well, what I think is interesting is the pendulum swings further and further if the higher end the brand is supposed to be or the prices. Like VF Corp also owns Vans and North Face. And why is supreme being so much more affected than Vance? There's a lot more price sensitivity and so that is tied to the brand and the culture way more than Vans. Vance is like easy to afford skateboarding shoes. Every skateboarder can buy Vans. People are buying supreme because of FOMO and fitting in. And so when you detach that, they went from 60, like their net income decreased to 64 million from 82 million the year before. And the revenue is down 523,000,000 from 561,000,000 when they projected 600 million. It's going to be really hard for them to get back up. Crocs did it with bad bunny. So maybe Bad Bunny could be the saving grace for supreme.

Yeah, no, 100%. It's just interesting to think about how these brands that are like even I've had friends that work at Nike and some of these bigger brands and their sales strategies are so interesting because they'll have exclusive products that target those type of shoppers who are looking for the exclusivity, but then they'll sell other products in their core performance line or in their outlet lines, and they're generating all this revenue while they're selling to all these different product segments. You know what I mean? So I'm not as up to speed on what Supreme's overarching products.

I mean, they have pretty good variety. Like they get into home, people buy the rugs, the ashtrays, like the bags, the hats, the hoodies. But do you get what I'm saying?

In terms of brand like, supreme has a core kind of demographic graphic of the people that buy them. Whereas like a brand like Nike, you could be someone who's like urban in New York making like a couple hundred grand a year, a million a year. You could be a billionaire rocking Nike, or you could be like lower middle class in the suburbs at the outlet shopping nike, and they've got products and product qualities and product grades for everyone and they're able to keep everyone in their own lane. So I don't know if supreme is as much like that as opposed to just catering to one sort of type of shopper who then is like, oh, it's 2023, I'm interested in this new hot brand that was cool last year. I'm onto something else.

Well, on that note, that's a good transition to something I wanted to bring up, which is there's this thing on penetration. So, you know, the instant pot. Everyone has that in one of their house. I was looking and looking this up. The company is called Instant Brands. So they just filed for Chapter Eleven bankruptcy, which the wildest stat to me though was, and I mean, this is from Market Watch. So 90% of homes in the United States have one of these and they're filing for bankruptcy, having to even get a commitment of 130,000,000 in debt, probably just to be able to wind the company down. They were profitable. They had EBITDA of about 57 million. So I was looking at all these numbers and I'm like, Why? So they own a bunch of brands, the Instant Pot, Pyrex, Snapware, et cetera. I'm like, okay, insane penetration, 90% of homes. What is going on here? How is this company going bankrupt? So excessive inventory supply. Inventory supply is like one of the assumptions because, yeah, you would think that during COVID a lot more people would buy these things, but turns out because every product from homes skyrocketed during COVID But then could people just be more into cooking because they have more time to be at home? But I think I do know what happened. I think this is my theory. Zero research backing this one, but I think if you have 90% of home penetration, you only need one Instant Pot, right? Like you don't lose your instant pot. It's not like you take it with you to travel and like, oh shit, I forgot my Instant Pot at my friend's house. So is that a valid assumption?

I mean, I think it could be, but I think one of the bigger problems that they had was just like mismanaging their inventory, especially in the tailwinds of COVID over indexing on it and then getting eaten by the costs it took to carry all that inventory. But yeah, I agree.

50% down in sales. Yeah, me neither. I mean, that thing takes up the entire countertop. The only other reason could be that after COVID, people instead actually picked up cooking more and they're like, I've got all day to sit here, last thing I need to do is put thing on the Instant Pot. But I don't know.

Yeah, it looks like they have a whole bunch of different brands under them. Like Pyrex, right? There's a whole bunch of different Pyrex. You don't just have one Pyrex, right? You could have a whole cook.

That's right.

Different ones, same things. With Snapware, it's like where you're storing food, but again, if they made projections based off the COVID stuff and then things just they were supporting a whole bunch of inventory and they basically over indexed on their inventory. That can eat into your margins pretty fast.

Yeah, I mean, so many things could have happened on the management front as well. Selling Snapper is very different than selling instant pot. I guess I obsess over this instant spot instance here, but yeah. What do you want to talk about? Wait, another one I have is do you know the ice cream company Yazzo? No. Tell me so. I love ice cream. I probably eat it. I'm definitely having some tonight. I eat like three times a week ice cream. But I hadn't heard of this company called Yazzo and they got acquired by Unilever. And then I looked up the rev. It Yasso makes over 300 million in 2023 in sales. Wow, that's bizarre. On retail. And I've never seen this ice cream company or tried it.

How much?

300 million.

Greek mochi.

Greek yogurt. Yeah. Unilever the last ice cream company they acquired. Do you know Tapalti?

No.

Yeah, you would recognize that if it was pizza. Wait, no, tapalti. I forget the name. Basically, Unilever hasn't acquired like an ice cream company in a really long time. And it's the first one they do in a while. So just was curious if you've seen this because those numbers are bonkers.

No, that's wild.

Talenti. Sorry. Ben and Jerry's.

Yeah, I know. Talente.

Yeah. So that's the last one they bought. And then now they also include Ben and Jerry's, magnum and talenti. Ben and Jerry's is definitely my favorite brand by a long shop. But the sugar levels are so insane. It's so funny because they are so environmental friendly and supportive, but yet their ice cream is just loaded with sugars.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's another trend that we're going to see. Something that I'm particularly interested in is just like in the food nutrition space. It's like America, we're such a consumer culture that we're always building problems, building things to solve problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Self inflicted.

Yeah, it's like you have crazy consumer culture which leads to problems and then you create more solutions for those downstream problems. So I think health and wellness and CPG has been really interesting and there's a lot of opportunity and trends to go after. I think things in the health space, in terms of gut health, in terms of Blaine, I know that's like a massive thing, especially processed foods. Right. Like a counter kind of sort of movement to all the highly processed foods that we've seen in America over the last 30 years. So things that are moving in that direction also in the food space, the oils. Right. Like there's a crusade out against seed oils that I've been seeing a bunch of. So really natural oils like olive oil and other sorts of oil. I think that's going to be a big trend that we're going to see in CPG and more natural products. I think that's what people want, more healthy natural products. I think that's going to continue. And then the other thing in terms of brands, I know you just brought up some ice cream brands.

No, the other thing I wanted to talk about though is you're talking about these self inflicted problems and another one is like this. I heard a lot of people talking about the mess going on with leakage and coupon codes and affiliate links. And you and I were actually talking about this on the phone and it's like, well, yeah, we created this commerce made affiliate marketing and influencers a really successful channel. But now we have a problem, which is we're overpaying on some of these affiliate commissions and we can't track all this stuff and what is actually driving the success behind specific affiliates. So you're starting to see a lot of companies popping up in the security side of tracking the codes and making sure they can only be used once or really understanding where they're coming from because some influencers might grab the link. They can put it on an article and say, I don't know, TechCrunch or whatever and get all those commissions paid out to them when the distribution was done by the original source. What are your thoughts on that? I know Social Snowball is like working on some of this stuff. I heard about this company through Peter from Pudgy Penguins and Bureau, and I had dinner with them. But to me, I don't know. I'm like, well good, they put it there.

I think there's two sides to coupons, right? And there are certain brands that I know when I've run companies, there are certain times where I want coupons to leak because I know what the deal is I'm running. And I'm like, okay, that's the whole point.

You want coupons to leak as who?

As like the brand owner, right? Like what I don't want, I don't want to cannibalize sales. But at the same time, I don't really care if a couple more people are using a coupon if they weren't going to buy and that's going to incentivize them to buy. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm putting out an offer because I want people to take it. I think what you don't want and what some of these solutions are targeting is you don't want to cannibalize existing traffic where someone comes to your site is ready to make a purchase, goes and Googles whatever coupon code, and now you just lost 30% of your payment that someone was already willing to pay full price for.

Well, there's two things people don't brands don't want it's that and then I think they don't want to pay an affiliate, like overpay and affiliate all these commissions and take credit for money that they pretty much didn't create the distribution for. So, like, they might have 30,000 followers on Instagram. That's where you found them. They ended up putting in one of these, like one of these orders.

Someone else picks it up, and then that original creator is getting the attribution.

For they're getting paid out a bunch.

And they're getting paid.

Yeah. To me, that's not as big of a problem. Shein the cannibalization because whatever that person is getting paid all that. But they were clever. They sneaked it in an article on Yahoo or whatever. I still got those sales. But the cannibalization is, I guess, the issue.

Yeah, I think it's a good problem to solve. And on the tech side of things, it's funny how coupon codes even we're talking about it with Justin, how hard coupon codes, even in something like Stripe, how hard they are to manage. Right. Just having to make a script to upload thousands of unique promo codes. That product doesn't even exist in Stripe, which I find pretty crazy.

Use once. I don't know. Maybe we should have these people on the pod at some point to talk about this because I can talk about all day. Yeah, cool.

And then other things just, I guess in financing news, things that kind of popped up on our radar this week looks like the brand 10,000, they raised 2021 and a half mil, led by Providence, with participation from Fernbrook and Alpha. And it looks like they're trying to go after being one of America's next great apparel sort of activewear brands. So that was really interesting to me because we hear a whole bunch about how the markets are getting hit. No one's raising capital. If you're building big businesses in the right space, there's clearly capital still out there. And then Lalo as well, raised a 10.1 million Series A, so it looks like things are still going strong in the baby market. That's a market that never ceases to amaze me.

Yeah, I know. Did you look at that company?

Yeah, I've seen them.

It's pretty wild. It's just aesthetically pleasing baby chairs. But 10,000 was I mean, I thought this company was running hot on the Facebook ads days. They went pretty hard on Facebook a few years ago. And this space, it has so much growth potential, especially within Nietzsche's, within fitness. So, like, Gym Shark is still killing it, lou Lemon, et cetera. But 10,000 found a niche of, like, ex veterans, and you look at the content on their website, and they're clearly targeting a niche within fitness. So niche within niche is definitely something that if you really own that entire vertical, you can still build a pretty big business. Because I assume they had a I mean, I don't know what venture valuations are on ecommerce companies, but they must be doing something really right.

Well, the other thing. That they did do right, which is really important for brand operators, is they were profitable since 2020. So it's not like we're seeing them raise a big round and they were like, bleeding cash all over the place. They're founded in 2017. I think they raised three in their previous round, and shein reached profitability in 2020. So they've been profitable for three years now. And that is a pretty strong signal for NEVC to kind of get involved, especially in those big categories like activewear where health, wellness, active where it's such a massive long tail trend in the US.

Yeah. Going back to Lalo, first of all, they claim to be like one of the fastest growing baby related companies. I think shereen and Bobby trump that. I think Bobby is actually one of the fastest growing baby companies. I think they did over 100 million already, and I don't know how long. But yeah, Lalo the niche within the niche. Looking at Lalo's content is like rich moms just based on what you can see in the content. But the cool thing about building any mom related well, I mean, it's baby related, but moms are doing the buying. Any mom related product is that you can tap into distribution outside of ads, given that there's so many mom communities out there and blogs. And first things moms do when women do when they're going to become a mom is ask around, who is it you buy from? What are the essentials, what are the products you need? But there's so many mom Facebook groups and these communities where a lot of the products are shared and you just get crazy organic growth. So always found mom products to be fun just because you can get very creative around how you acquire the customer.

And I think just in terms of timing, right? We always talk about how important timing is in markets. It was almost like the last five years or something, and we'll still see it continue. It's like the baby and mom market is so hot because all of the influencers who grew up on Instagram, they all became moms. Right. And talking about their life all day, and now they're just talking about being moms. And like, oh, a lot of you have been asking what type of baby chair I'm buying, and this is it.

Yeah. Man, that is like such an interesting insight, though. That could be the money maker. Yeah, that's a whole pitch right there, to raise some money.

Yeah, put it on your deck. Market, tailwinds, influencers becoming moms. Yeah, but no, I mean, I realized even, I'd say like three or four years ago before, when I was working on some businesses with creators, I wanted to work with one and build an app. And this massive creator was like, oh, I want to do a mom app. And I was like, oh, really? And I was like, we ended up not doing it because I think it's really important for whatever business that you're working on to really be able to get into the weeds, really care about it. And being not having a kid, I just didn't want to spend my whole.

Day thinking, you're not ready to be a mom yet, you should stick to being an influencer.

So we never got that off the ground. But, yeah, clearly. And this was like, five years ago. The interest was there from the biggest creator. They're thinking about their life, what products resonate with them, why it's important. And, yeah, that space has taken off. And kind of what you had mentioned before is like, if you're building products in the baby space, there's so many opportunities to collaborate with other baby products who maybe aren't in your specific niche. Right. Like, babies are people, too. They need furniture, they need food, they need clothes, they need all the same things. So, yeah, super interesting space.

So Kevin Durant a famous mom. Obviously not, but Kevin Durant is like his fund is leading this series. A I just love have you seen their website? How minimal?

No, what is it? Let me pull it up.

I mean, I know they're fun, so it's super minimal. It's just incredibly minimal. But I think it's my biggest takeaway here from looking at this website is how specific the content is, how clearly they're trying to target people. The consistency in the content. Even below, you can't click out into like, it looks like an Instagram feed and it says, Follow along, Lalo. But you can't click out to the Instagram from the images and it's all clearly showing. I mean, these are definitely like million dollar homes or near that based on the kitchens. So for aesthetically pleasing just months, I have money and want the house aesthetic to be consistent and the niche within the niche.

I love that. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it for this week. We got some great podcasts coming up and yeah, I like this. I think we should jam out and do some of these sessions a little bit more often.

Yeah, same here. Let's do next week we should break down some websites, I think, looking over the content and the demographics, et cetera. Expect more stuff like that coming from us. So subscribe to the DTC pod below. Let us know what you think on this formatting. Should be fun. Less predictable than interviews, but we'll keep a mix of interviews.