DTC POD - Jeremy Barbara - Sundays

1️⃣ One Sentence Summary

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YouTube influencer marketing strategies and challenges discussed with Jeremy Barbara.

🔑 7 Key Themes

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1. YouTube as the Preferred Platform: YouTube's higher intent and viewer engagement. 2. Influencer Marketing Strategies: Developing a strategic approach for launching influencer campaigns. 3. Creative Opportunities for Collaboration: Offering unique incentives and opportunities to creators. 4. Maximizing Effectiveness: Prioritizing intent, targeting, and tracking results to optimize influencer marketing. 5. Challenges and Solutions on TikTok: The difficulties of advertising on TikTok and the potential of TikTok Shop. 6. Evaluating Influencer Influence: Assessing the influence of creators through cross-platform audience engagement. 7. Budgeting and Working with Influencers: Tailoring influencer partnerships to budgets and product affordability.

💬 Keywords

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YouTube influencer marketing, smaller influencers, A-list YouTubers, $20 CPMs, influencer collaborations, views, CPM pricing, first-time partnerships, Seed Geek, finance space, Sundays, TikTok, low intent, active search, seamless integration, influencer influence, Twitch, CPA, reach, team structure, daily tasks, SeatGeek, sports-specific channels, monetary compensation, creative freedom, influencer rates, Twitter impressions, podcast advertising, Instagram, marketing strategy, advertising effectiveness.

🎞️ Clipfinder: Quotes, Hooks, & Timestamps

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Jeremy Barbara 00:03:30 00:03:45

The Ultimate Goal of Influencer Marketing: "....the ultimate goal where you want to get to is something that functions pretty it's like a pretty well oiled machine on its own where you are obviously every month trying and testing new things but the things that work kind of run on their own."

Jeremy Barbara 00:05:48 00:05:48

Testing Influencers at Different Budgets: "I don't think that there is too little to test influencer because ultimately it just changes the type of influencer you're going to work with."

Jeremy Barbara 00:07:46 00:07:56

Influencer Marketing: "Ultimately, one of the biggest hacks for doing influencer marketing is like creating mutually beneficial relationships by linking the audience in a way that they can't link it themselves."

Jeremy Barbara 00:08:38 00:08:52

The Power of Influencer Marketing: "Because ultimately, what a lot of people get wrong in influencer marketing is they give this script of you have to say this this in this exact way, and therefore you've kind of circumvented the whole point of influencer marketing, which is like that they have the influence."

Jeremy Barbara 00:11:00 00:11:14

The Rise of Influencer Marketing: "I've seen it done in a lot of different ways. Generally, the way I've seen it work the best, it usually does start as a one person show because a lot of companies influencer marketing is a pretty intimidating form of marketing to get into because it is still even to this day, kind of the Wild West."

Jeremy Barbara 00:12:50 00:12:56

The Cost of YouTube Influencers: "You can still do really great and do a ton of influencer stuff on YouTube for $20 CPMs."

Jeremy Barbara 00:18:44 00:18:55

"Influencer Marketing Strategy: 'When it comes to other platforms TikTok, Reels, etc., I'll probably cut that almost in half to like a $10 CPM just because, again, I trust YouTube the most and that's for a lot of reasons.'"

Jeremy Barbara 00:23:47 00:23:51

Viral Topic: Measuring the success of YouTube videos Quote: "So using all that to kind of figure out, all right, on a video basis, how well did this video do?"

Jeremy Barbara 00:38:52 00:39:03

TikTok Shop: "I'm excited about TikTok Shop because it gives us a really good way of integrating into content on TikTok and having a really easy customer journey to at least just try a sample."

Jeremy Barbara 00:44:26 00:44:28

"Influencer's Real Influence: Can you move your audience across channels?"

📚 Timestamped overview

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03:23 Building influencer program: test, optimize, scale.

05:52 Jeremy, variety of companies, strategy, influencers, products.

11:00 Influencer marketing often starts with one person.

12:23 YouTube can be affordable for influencers.

18:11 Influencer rates vary based on platform, agency. Trust YouTube for highest influence and attention.

20:14 Not all platforms are equal, be strategic.

23:01 Using links, codes, surveys, and influencers to track YouTube video success.

26:19 Driving clear CTAs with trackable campaigns.

30:44 Human-grade dog food that humans can eat.

34:01 Limited time, optimize CPA, reach, influencers.

38:10 Excited about TikTok Shop; easy customer journey.

42:32 Key point: Head of influencer should have relevant hobbies, understand audience demographics, come across opportunities naturally.

44:15 Audience movement across channels signals influence.

❇️ Key topics and bullets

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I. Introduction to Jeremy Barbara and Sundays A. Jeremy Barbara's role as head of influencer marketing at Sundays B. Sundays - a popular dtc-first dog food brand II. YouTube as an Effective Platform for Influencer Marketing A. YouTube's perceived cost and effectiveness B. Rates on YouTube for smaller influencers C. Possibility of influencer marketing on YouTube for $20 CPMs D. YouTube's active and engaged viewer base III. Creating a Strategy for Influencer Campaigns A. Identifying the type of creator to work with B. Offering unique products or opportunities to creators C. Developing creative ways to engage with influencers D. Establishing mutually beneficial relationships E. Importance of creative freedom for influencers IV. Successful Influencer Campaign Examples A. Tim the Tatman's Twitch campaign with Current app B. SeatGeek's collaborations with sports-specific channels C. Sundays' success with unconventional influencers V. Team Structure for Influencer Marketing A. Starting with one person managing influencer marketing B. Growing the team as the company expands C. Prioritizing relationship management and daily tasks VI. Advertising on Different Platforms A. Unique benefits of podcast advertising B. Challenges of advertising on Twitter and Instagram C. Prioritizing platform effectiveness and targeting specific audiences VII. Tracking and Evaluating Influencer Campaign Performance A. YouTube's trackability compared to TikTok B. Using links, codes, and post-purchase surveys for insights C. Leveraging bigger influencers for organic traffic VIII. Pricing and Budgeting for Influencer Marketing A. Influencer marketing rates and CPMs B. Approaching influencers with different budget constraints IX. Testing Influencers and Building Relationships A. Factors for determining real influence B. Moving audiences across different social media channels C. Testing influencers with limited funds or smaller followings X. The Future of Influencer Marketing and Sundays A. Sundays' presence on TikTok Shop and integration opportunities B. Excitement about evolving marketing strategies C. Importance of budget, scalability, and individual company approaches

🎬 Reel script

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[Background music fades in] [Upbeat music] Narrator (Entrepreneur Business Influencer): Welcome back, fellow entrepreneurs! Today, we had an incredible session on DTC Pod with Jeremy Barbara, the mastermind behind Sundays, a top-notch dtc-first dog food brand. [Narrator speaking in an enthusiastic tone] Our discussion revolved around influencer marketing, and let me tell you, it was jam-packed with game-changing insights! Jeremy eagerly shared his bias towards YouTube for influencer marketing, revealing that YouTube isn't as expensive as many perceive. In fact, smaller influencers can be quite affordable. At just $20 CPMs, you can make influencer campaigns work wonders on YouTube! He stressed the importance of collaborating with the right creators. Jeremy believes in launching campaigns based on the unique offerings and natural integrations each creator can bring to the table. For example, Sundays partnered with Seed Geek, leveraging their amazing event tickets to promote their product seamlessly. [Narrator speaking in a curious tone] Jeremy had some burning questions, too. He wanted to know how to identify the perfect creator and offer them something truly worth their while. He also delved into the different products they had worked with in the finance space and what strategies they're using for Sundays. [Narrator speaking in an insightful tone] We explored the differences between YouTube and TikTok. While TikTok's algorithm-based content may lack viewer intent, YouTube's active search-driven audience shows higher intent towards specific creators. Jeremy emphasized that YouTube is a goldmine for influencer marketing because influence and views go hand in hand. [Narrator speaking in an engaged tone] We dug into the nitty-gritty of successful influencer marketing campaigns. It's all about testing, experimentation, and doubling down on what works. The goal is to create a well-oiled machine that generates millions of dollars, even with just a small team. But it all starts with one person managing influencer marketing and developing a killer strategy. [Narrator speaking in an enthusiastic tone] Finally, Jeremy dropped some serious knowledge on influencer rates. He highlighted pricing strategies based on CPMs, platform effectiveness, and the importance of creative freedom for creators. And guess what? Sundays even had influencers, believe it or not, eating their dog food in their videos! [Background music builds up] So, fellow entrepreneurs, let's put our newfound knowledge from this episode into action. Up your influencer marketing game, find your perfect creators, and create those wow-worthy campaigns that leave a lasting impact! [Music fades out] [End of video]

✏️ Custom Newsletter

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Subject: 🎧 Tune in to the Latest Episode of DTC POD: Unleashing the Power of YouTube Influencer Marketing with Jeremy Barbara from Sundays 🐾 Hey there, loyal DTC POD listeners! We're back with another scintillating episode that will have you wagging your tail with excitement! In our latest episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Jeremy Barbara, the mastermind behind the impactful influencer marketing strategies at Sundays, the top dog food brand in the DTC space. In this paw-some episode, Jeremy spills the kibble on harnessing the power of YouTube influencer marketing. He drops some serious truth bombs that'll leave you barking with delight and ready to unleash your own successful influencer campaigns. Trust us, you won't want to miss this one! Here are five keys you'll learn in this episode: 1️⃣ The Secret Behind YouTube's True Value: Jeremy shares his bias towards YouTube as the go-to platform for influencer marketing and breaks down why it's not as expensive as you might think. Get ready to discover how even smaller influencers can make a big impact without breaking the bank. 2️⃣ Putting a Price Tag on Influence: Learn how rates on YouTube vary and why they tend to go up for A-list and bigger YouTubers. Jeremy spills the beans on how you can do influencer marketing for as low as $20 CPMs (cost per thousand views) and why this strategy consistently works for most companies. 3️⃣ Crafting an Influencer Strategy for Launch Success: Looking to launch an influencer campaign but not sure where to start? Jeremy shares his insights on developing a winning strategy based on your unique offerings. From identifying the perfect creator to collaborating with them, get ready to take notes on how to make your campaign a howling success! 4️⃣ Sunday Fundays and Natural Promotions: Dive into the Sunday Fundays world as Jeremy reveals how to create seamless integrations of ads through amazing events, making them a natural way to promote your product. Trust us, it's no ruff task when you've got the right know-how! 5️⃣ Unleashing the Power of Organic Traffic: From Tim the Tatman to film review channels, Jeremy shares some pawsitively surprising success stories on driving organic traffic. Discover how to give creators the freedom to integrate your products in a way that makes sense to them, leading to authentic endorsements that have customers eating from the palm of your hand. Fun Fact From the Episode 🐾: Did you know that Tim the Tatman once gave away $100 for every kill he got in Call of Duty on his Twitch channel? Not only did this create a buzz, but it connected his followers with an exciting experience and the chance to win some dough! Talk about a creative way to engage with influencers and drive brand loyalty. It's time to put your paw to the play button and dig into this episode on all major podcast platforms! Trust us, it'll have you begging for more. Outtro: That's all for today's episode of DTC POD, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with another tail-wagging conversation. Until then, happy podcasting and keep spreading the word about our show to fellow marketing enthusiasts! Call to Action: Got a burning question for our hosts or a topic you'd love to hear us cover? Send us a woof at dtcpod@email.com or slide into our DMs on Instagram @dtcpod. We love hearing from our listeners and will give your suggestions a bone-afide consideration! Thanks for being the most pawsome listeners out there. Stay tuned for more thrilling episodes coming your way soon. Keep howling with excitement, Blaine, Ramon, and the DTC POD team 🎙️🐾

🐦 Business Lesson Tweet Thread

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🔥 THREAD: The Secret to Successful Influencer Marketing! 💥 1/ It's not about follower count or viral videos—it's all about building REAL influence and meaningful connections with your audience. 🙌 2/ YouTube reigns supreme in influencer marketing! ⚡️ Viewers actively search for content, creating high intent and attention. TikTok? Meh, not so much. 🤷‍♂️ 3/ Want to launch an influencer campaign? Start by identifying the lowest hanging fruit, the easiest way to connect with influencers. 🍎 4/ Offer them something they can't resist! 💰 Monetary compensation, unique opportunities, or a product everyone wants. Trade value for influence and watch the magic happen. ✨ 5/ Collaboration is key! Give influencers creative freedom to integrate products in a way that makes sense for them. Authenticity is essential! 🎥 6/ One-hit wonder or long-term success? Experiment, test, and optimize. Find what works, then double down on successes. 📈 7/ Team size matters! Start with one person managing influencer marketing, prove its effectiveness, then grow your team. No need for a massive squad. 💪 8/ Mind the platform! Different platforms yield different results. YouTube provides trackability, while TikTok lacks the ability to track and direct users to purchase. Choose wisely! 📊 9/ It's about more than CPM! Think intent, audience connection, and brand integration. Effective advertising goes beyond numbers. 🧠 10/ Don't forget the power of podcasts! 🎙️ The trust, personalization, and endorsements they offer can't be beaten. Get your brand in the ears of engaged audiences. 🎧 11/ Real influence moves across platforms! Look for influencers who have a strong presence in multiple social channels. They're the ones who truly impact their audiences. 🌐 12/ Budget constraints? No problem! Even with limited funds, you can work with influencers by offering product shoutouts. Get creative, think outside the box. 📣 13/ It's all about building and nurturing relationships! Constantly reach out to creators, keep your messages open and straightforward. Cultivate partnerships that stand the test of time. 🤝 14/ The journey to influencer marketing success starts with a single step. You've got this! 🚀 Remember, building influence takes time, effort, and strategy. Stay curious, adapt to new platforms, and most importantly, connect with your audience authentically. Power to you, entrepreneurs! 💪 #InfluencerMarketing #DTCPOD [Pssst! Catch the full interview on the @DTCPod! It's a game-changer!] 🎧✨

🎓 Lessons Learned

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Lesson 1: YouTube - Cost-effective Influencer Marketing Description: YouTube offers affordable influencer marketing options, especially for smaller influencers, with rates mainly increasing for A-list YouTubers. Lesson 2: $20 CPM Works for YouTube Description: Establishing consistent $20 CPMs on YouTube can be successful for most companies, especially when pricing is driven by views and CPMs. Lesson 3: Develop Strategy for Influencer Campaigns Description: Learn how to create an effective strategy for launching influencer campaigns based on your company's offerings and goals. Lesson 4: Use Natural Promotions for Product Integration Description: Leveraging natural promotions, such as product integration during events, can enhance influencer campaigns and attract genuine interest. Lesson 5: Identify and Offer Value to Creators Description: Discover methods to identify and select the right type of creator to work with, while providing them with valuable opportunities and compensation. Lesson 6: Understand Intent and Platform Differences Description: Differentiate between platforms like YouTube and TikTok to understand viewer intent and optimize influencer marketing strategies accordingly. Lesson 7: Foster Mutually Beneficial Relationships Description: Build relationships through unique collaborations, giveaways, and opportunities that benefit both the creator and their audience. Lesson 8: Track and Optimize Influencer Marketing Description: Utilize data tracking, post-purchase surveys, and organic traffic analysis to evaluate and optimize the success of influencer campaigns. Lesson 9: Consider Budget and Scalability Description: Work with influencers across budgets, from smaller creators to larger influencers, while understanding scalability and adjusting strategies accordingly. Lesson 10: Diversify Marketing Strategies Description: Explore various channels, categories, and strategies to find what works best for your brand's influencer marketing program and goals.

💎 Maxims

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1. Focus on YouTube for influencer marketing, as it offers higher intent and attention from viewers. 2. Don't underestimate the affordability of YouTube for smaller influencers; rates mainly go up for A-list and bigger YouTubers. 3. Consider $20 CPMs on YouTube as a baseline for influencer marketing campaigns. 4. Pricing for influencer collaborations should be based on views and CPM pricing, especially for first-time partnerships. 5. Develop a strategy for launching an influencer campaign based on what your brand has to offer, such as unique products or experiences. 6. Identify the type of creator you want to work with and what you can offer them in return. 7. Leverage the unique opportunities your brand provides, such as tickets to events, to naturally promote products. 8. Understand the difference in intent between platforms like TikTok and YouTube; YouTube viewers actively search for specific content or creators, indicating higher intent. 9. Creating seamless integrations of ads on TikTok can be challenging, as the content and ad must be cohesive. 10. Build a well-oiled machine for influencer marketing by starting with testing and experimentation, then doubling down on successes and forming long-term partnerships. 11. Prioritize optimizing for cost per acquisition (CPA) and reach in influencer marketing programs. 12. Consider working with bigger influencers due to their influence and impact, but also have a program to collaborate with smaller creators. 13. Offer commission programs or flat fee money to smaller creators who perform well in campaigns. 14. Constantly engage in outreach to creators, keeping the message open and straightforward. 15. Begin with one person managing influencer marketing to prove effectiveness and develop a strategy, then expand the team as needed. 16. Be strategic with marketing dollars by targeting specific audiences and proving intent. 17. Give influencers something worth their while, whether it's monetary compensation or unique opportunities. 18. Foster mutually beneficial relationships by linking the audience with creators in a meaningful way. 19. Allow creators creative freedom to integrate products in a way that makes sense for them and their audience. 20. Rates for influencer marketing can vary, but consider a $20 to $30 CPM on YouTube as a guideline. 21. Track the effectiveness of YouTube videos through links, codes, and post-purchase surveys to evaluate success and adjust future collaborations. 22. Consider the unique benefits of podcast advertising, such as established trust and personalized endorsements. 23. Differentiate the effectiveness of advertising on various platforms based on their intent and attention levels. 24. Utilize platforms like TikTok Shop to provide an easy customer journey for purchasing products and seamless integrations into content. 25. Look for influencers who can move their audience across different social media channels, indicating real influence. 26. Consider factors such as social media following consistency when determining an influencer's true influence. 27. Even with limited funds, it's still possible to work with influencers by offering product shoutouts or approaching lower view count influencers. 28. Adapt influencer marketing strategies to fit your company's budget and goals.

🌟 3 Fun Facts

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1. The speaker worked with Tim the Tatman on Twitch for a campaign where Tim gave $100 to a random person in chat for every kill he got in Call of Duty. 2. Influencers for a film review channel surprisingly had success promoting Sundays dog food, even though they didn't have much dog-related content. 3. Sundays dog food is made with human-grade ingredients, and some influencers have actually eaten the dog food in their videos.

📓 Blog Post

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Title: The Power of Influencer Marketing on YouTube: Insights from Jeremy Barbara, Head of Influencer Marketing at Sundays Introduction: In the ever-evolving world of digital marketing, the role of influencers and the platforms they operate on are constantly changing. One platform that has remained a consistent powerhouse for influencer marketing is YouTube. In a recent episode of the DTC Pod, we had the pleasure of speaking with Jeremy Barbara, the Head of Influencer Marketing at Sundays, an innovative direct-to-consumer dog food brand. Jeremy shared valuable insights on the effectiveness of YouTube as a platform for influencer marketing, the importance of strategic collaborations, and the challenges and opportunities presented by platforms like TikTok. Let's dive deeper into these topics. YouTube: A Cost-Effective Platform for Influencer Marketing: Jeremy brings attention to a common misconception surrounding influencer marketing on YouTube, specifically the perception that it is an expensive endeavor. According to him, YouTube is not as pricey as many believe. In fact, rates mainly rise for A-list and bigger YouTubers. Small influencers on YouTube can be an incredibly cost-effective option for brands, with Jeremy mentioning that influencer marketing can be done for as low as $20 CPMs (cost per thousand views). This fact challenges the notion that YouTube is reserved only for large advertising budgets. The speaker believes that consistently working with a $20 CPM on YouTube can be effective for most companies. Understanding the YouTube Audience: One of the main reasons Jeremy places so much value on YouTube for influencer marketing is the intent of the viewers on the platform. Unlike platforms like TikTok, where content is algorithm-driven and viewers may not actively follow specific creators, YouTube viewers actively search for content and spend more time consuming videos. This higher level of intent translates into a more engaged audience, making YouTube an ideal platform for influencer marketing. Developing a Strategy for Influencer Campaigns: During the episode, Jeremy expressed interest in learning about developing a strategy for launching influencer campaigns based on the unique offerings of the brand he represents. He mentions how Sundays, being a dtc-first dog food brand, has natural opportunities to promote their product through events and experiences. This highlights the importance of identifying the type of influencer to work with and what unique offerings the brand can provide them. Creative Integrations and Mutually Beneficial Relationships: One of the key takeaways from Jeremy's insights is the importance of providing influencers with something of value. This could be monetary compensation, but it can also extend to unique opportunities and experiences. Jeremy emphasizes the need for unique and creative ways to engage with influencers, creating a mutually beneficial relationship that connects the audience with the influencer in a way that they cannot do themselves. This approach allows influencers to integrate products and experiences in a way that makes sense to their audience, leading to more authentic and impactful collaborations. The Challenges and Opportunities of TikTok: While YouTube holds a special place in Jeremy's heart, he acknowledges the challenges and opportunities presented by platforms like TikTok. The fast-paced, algorithm-driven nature of TikTok poses difficulties for seamless integration of advertisements. However, the recently launched TikTok Shop offers solutions by providing a customer journey that makes it easier for viewers to make purchases. Jeremy highlights the importance of strong tie-ins between brands and short-form content on TikTok, as well as the benefits of easy integration and customer sampling through the platform. Conclusion: Influencer marketing continues to evolve, and understanding the nuances of different platforms is crucial for success. Jeremy Barbara's insights from his experience as the Head of Influencer Marketing at Sundays shed light on the effectiveness of YouTube as a cost-effective platform, the importance of strategic collaborations, and the challenges and opportunities of platforms like TikTok. By leveraging these insights, brands can take their influencer marketing efforts to new heights and build mutually beneficial relationships with influential creators across various platforms. [Word Count: 601]

🎤 Voiceover Script

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"Discover the secrets to successful influencer marketing on YouTube! Join us as Jeremy Barbara, head of influencer marketing at Sundays, reveals how to develop a winning strategy for launching your next campaign. Learn about pricing, targeting, and the power of creative collaborations. Don't miss out on these exclusive insights on the DTC Pod."

🔘 Best Practices Guide

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Title: Best Practices for Successful Influencer Marketing Campaigns 1. Choose YouTube for Effective Influencer Marketing: YouTube offers high intent and viewer engagement, making it a top choice for influencer marketing. YouTubers with more influence tend to have more views. 2. Start Small, Test, and Scale: Begin by testing different channels, categories, and strategies. Double down on successful collaborations for long-term partnerships. 3. Creatively Engage Influencers: Give influencers something worth their while, whether it's monetary compensation, unique opportunities, or exclusive products. Find mutually beneficial ways to connect with their audience. 4. Connect with Influencers Across Platforms: Look for influencers who can move their audience across different social media channels. Ensure their followers actively engage with their content. 5. Track and Evaluate Performance: Use trackable links, codes, and post-purchase surveys to assess the success of influencer collaborations. Adjust future partnerships based on data insights. 6. Consider Budget and Reach: Work within your budget to collaborate with influencers, even if it means approaching smaller creators. Budget constraints shouldn't hinder successful partnerships. 7. Prioritize Intent and Targeting: Focus on proving intent and targeting specific audiences rather than solely considering CPM rates. Platforms like YouTube provide better tracking capabilities. 8. Leverage Unique Platform Features: Take advantage of platform-specific features like TikTok Shop, which offers seamless product integration and an easy customer journey for purchases. 9. Personalize Endorsements on Podcasts: Podcast advertising provides personalized endorsements and established trust. Utilize this medium for effective influencer marketing. 10. Optimize with a Small Team: Build a lean influence marketing team, consisting of a strategist, negotiate, and executor. Prioritize optimizing for CPA and reach. By following these best practices, brands can create successful influencer marketing campaigns that generate increased brand awareness, engagement, and ultimately, drive conversions.

🎆 Social Carousel: Do's/Don'ts

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Slide 1: "10 Influencer Marketing Insights from Jeremy Barbara on DTC Pod." Slide 2: "Inexpensive YouTube" - YouTube marketing can be affordable, especially with smaller influencers. Slide 3: "Rates & Influence" - Rates rise for A-list YouTubers, while influence relates directly to views. Slide 4: "Identify Creators" - Develop a strategy to identify and connect with the right creators suited for your brand. Slide 5: "Classify Platforms" - Not all platforms are equal; YouTube generally offers higher viewer intent than TikTok. Slide 6: "Commission Over Nothing" - It's better to give smaller creators a commission program than nothing at all. Slide 7: "Outreach & Simplify" - Consistent & straightforward outreach helps in building relations with creators. Slide 8: "Team Structure" - For an effective team, dedicate someone to strategy while others execute daily tasks. Slide 9: "Creative Integrations" - Allow creators the freedom to integrate product promotions creatively and in ways they see fit. Slide 10: "Measurement Matters" - Always track and analyze data from campaigns to refine strategy and maximize ROI.

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