Awarepreneurs Interview_Kurt Avery

Welcome to Awarepreneurs, the world's longest running social entrepreneur podcast. I'm Paul Zelizer, your host. If you could take a moment and hit subscribe and do a review on your favorite podcast app, it helps our guests help more social entrepreneurs, and it costs you nothing. Thank you so much. Today our guest is Curt Avery, and our topic is how to 100x your social impact. Kurt Avery is the founder and president of Sawyer Products, a company at the forefront of innovation in outdoor protection and humanitarian aid. With a background in marketing for Fortune 500 companies and an MBA from Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, Kurt launched Sawyer with a mission to develop practical life-saving solutions, most notably in water filtration and insect repellents. Under his leadership, the company has grown into a global force serving both outdoor enthusiasts and vulnerable communities around the world.

Through partnerships with over 140 nonprofits in more than 80 countries, Sawyer has helped provide clean water to millions, significantly reducing waterborne diseases and improving health outcomes in underserved areas. Kurt's approach to business is deeply rooted in purpose, faith, and impact, a philosophy he shares in his book SawyerThink: How a Small Company Disrupts Markets and Changes the World. Curt and his company have been featured in major outlets including the New York Times, Yahoo Finance, and Newsbreak. And on a personal note, this may be one of the few times where I can say that this product has probably— it has certainly protected my well-being and may have saved my life. I've been doing backcountry adventures in the western US for Gosh, since 1988 when I came out to Colorado for the first time. I currently live in New Mexico and I was running with my buddy this morning, a trail runner, and he also said there are many times that if we didn't have Sawyer products, we both would've gotten very sick and potentially might not be here. So Kurt, it is just an absolute honor to have you here. Thanks for coming to Awarepreneurs.

Well, thank you. We'll make sure we add you to the list of people that we, uh.

You have impacted my life for sure. For sure. So, so I know what Sawyer Products is because I'm a weirdo outdoors guy who's been doing that for a long time. But if somebody doesn't know what Sawyer Products is, let's start there, Curt.

Well, we, we're in the outdoor solution problem. So the two big ones we do are insect repellents and water filtration. We are state-of-the-art, top of the line. Everything we sell is the single best product on the market. We're kind of a niche. People know the big brands, but on water, we are the big brand and repellents were kind of number 4, but we're what the military uses. They don't go anywhere without Sawyer because they, they need that protection and level. And, uh, we're innovative, so our stuff is different than the way— so the water filters, we got that from kidney dialysis.

If you can clean blood, you can clean water, so why not? So we're really the first ones to bring hollow fiber membrane technology to point of use, or, you know, right before the water goes in your mouth technology. Well, once we had that, you know, guys, we got the two biggest things. You know, those mosquito nets, we kind of invented that. We, we, and, and we do, we treat the clothing now. And so, so much of the world dies of mosquito bites and bad water, and we got the two solutions. Why not? I mean, you know, so that's how we got into it. And we really got on the water, we got our notoriety in the Haitian earthquake of 2010. We sent a couple hundred thousand down there, and that's all the— that's what they used.

And cholera outbreaks, boom, within same day. Cholera can kill you in one day, but as long as we're there, no cholera can get through the filter and stuff like that. So we got— we were put on the map basically because of that. And so now we are the single biggest used filters. We, we do 3 to 5 million people a year get clean water for the very first time between us and our partners. We do, we do a lot of it ourselves too. And you talk about rewarding, I mean, it's just life-changing. Yes, certainly.

In, when you're in the southwestern U.S., there's sometimes a choice between drinking, you know, filtering water from a dirty cattle, you know, metal container that has green slime floating in it, or not having water, which isn't a good idea in the desert Southwest. Right. So, and we pretty much know in certain spots that there's at least Giardia, maybe other things in there in those tanks. So that's how I can say it was, you know, very high degree of certainty that I would have had some very significant health problems if I hadn't known how to use your product.

So yeah, Yeah, it can knock you out. for sure.

Yeah. Severe damage.

We, we do all the hurricanes. So like Hurricane Helene that went through Carolinas and Georgia, we, we had 100,000 filters up there and we were able to get filters like on day 2, flying them in. And we got to where people couldn't get to. They couldn't get, you know, even helicopters to some of these places. The hiking community who knew our products just took these filters and hiked up to where you couldn't get anywhere else. So any, anytime there's a hurricane or cyclone or whatever in the world, we're there. We're, we're right there. Day 2, everybody needs water, we're there.

So we're going to get to what it looks like now, but when did it start, Curt? And tell us a little bit, like, what was Sawyer Products at the beginning?

Well, it was founded in 1984, and I had come off a good corporate career with the big companies, and I forgot one critical lesson. I forgot to switch from from big corporate time marketing to guerrilla marketing. So immediately put us in a hole. Obviously we've dug out of it. We like to say we were, we lost money 23 of the first 25 years until we became an overnight success. So, but we had the right products. We had to grind it out. I had to take consulting jobs to feed the family and stuff like that, but we knew we'd make it because we had the right stuff.

One of the things that really helped us was the internet and the influencers and podcasters like yourself. When they came on board, then guerrilla marketing took off because it wasn't overly expensive compared to running ads that are here today and gone tomorrow. So because we had the best stuff, the influencers didn't have any choice but to recommend us. And that gave us a big boost. And, you know, we would spend, I would spend, most people know REI stores. I would spend all 12 hours from the time they opened to the time they closed. And we're just interviewing people. What do you need? What problems can we solve for you? What are the issues? And, you know, to use Henry Ford's analysis, if I asked the people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse.

So they don't always know what they want. They just know what problem they need to solve. And so you work on the problems and build the products to solve that problem. So that's how we kept going. And we knew we had the right stuff because military wouldn't use anything but us. And eventually, eventually the world found us. So it's a different world now. The last 5, 6 years have been a whole lot different.

Yeah. So I love what you were saying there, Curt, about, you know, the problem. A mentor of mine says fall in love with the problem, not the solution, right? You'll build the solution, but really deeply, deeply understand the problems of the people you want to help, and then you can build an excellent product. And that was something Before we hit record, Curt, you were, can I use the word obsessed about creating a product that was a level of quality that maybe hadn't been done before? Talk to us about that level of, I'm going to use the word obsessed. I don't know how else to describe it about creating a product that was solving this problem unlike anything that outdoors people had ever had. Let's start with the water. Filtration part of things. You found something in terms of kidney dialysis and some tech and like, just walk us through a little bit of how does a quality-obsessed social entrepreneur think about producing something that has a level of quality that hasn't been done before?

Yeah, well, one of the lessons learned in grad school at Northwestern was don't do me-too products. The world doesn't need just another product. They need they need to be moving the ball forward in the science. So when we came on that idea, there were some out there, but we connected with a company that is at 0.1 micron absolute. And that's the, nothing that makes you sick can get through this filter except a virus. Viruses are not gonna be in the water, so we don't worry about them. And nobody's matched it. Okay, 20-some years later, nobody has been able to build a hollow fiber membrane with that spec.

There's a lot of Hall of Fame memories. There's people, I mean, they, people even mock our name, you know, they'll, they'll put our name on some of their things and we have to chase them in court. And the lawyer says, congratulations, you've got to the level of Gucci now where people are willing to steal your name too. But overseas, it, it was, it, it obviously that was important for the campers that you couldn't get sick and the hikers overseas, it's critical. You can't go into a village and say, you know, by the way, 90% of you're going to be okay. The other 10% are going to get sick. And that's just the way it's gonna be. We can unabashedly walk in there and say nobody is gonna get sick with water that comes through this filter.

It's just not gonna happen. And we've proven it. We, we wipe out 95% of all the sickness within weeks, within weeks. And it's published medical journals. You can see it on our website. And the reason you don't get the last 5% is because they got other ways they're gonna get it. You know, they wash their vegetables and they care of the fecal matter. But then by the year 2, it's up to 98%.

99% because they kind of get with the program. 'Cause we, we don't just treat, teach you to treat water, we treat you the whole thing, the whole WASH principles, how to take care of your vegetables and your fecal matter and stuff like that. So it's a mission to do, do the whole thing. But, but how could you live with yourself if you went in there and said 90% are gonna be okay and the other 10 are gonna get sick and some of your kids are gonna die? You can't do that. So you have to be, to use your word, obsessed with getting to that next level. And be honest with you, half our cost of the filter is the testing. So when it's made, we test to make sure there are no holes greater than 0.1 microns absolute. Other people will say they're 0.1, but they won't use the word absolute because absolute means guaranteed there's nothing above that.

They will have some 0.1s, they'll have some 0.2s, some 0.5s, so stuff's getting through theirs. Then when we put the filter together, we test it 2 more times to make sure there's— we test air test it to make the O-rings are in place, the sonic well's in place, because we know there are failures in the factory. So if you just did random testing, bad stuff would get through. So we— every filter is tested 3 times to make sure when it leaves our factory, it is up to our standard. And that's huge because if we didn't do it all 3 times, stuff— some stuff would get out. And you can't do that to somebody.

What would you guess other companies in your space do? It sounds like random testing might be the norm in other filtration companies. Maybe they test every 1 out of 100 or something like that.

Yeah, exactly. Something like that. Well, and some of them probably don't test them at all, but yeah, even the better ones are doing random testing. There are, there are some more credible ones and they get away with it in the US because our water's really not as bad. As you think, compared to what they're gonna drink out of a pigsty in Africa, you know? So they can get away with it. But no, they're, they're not, they're just random testing and, and that's fine, but not where we are. That's not, that's not Sawyer.

Yeah.

Well, So, and the other thing is they do it because, you know, they make tens of thousands, we make millions. And so I can, we can afford, and plus we're not profit driven per se. We, we like to take the profits, so we give 'em away, but it's more important to have the product right. So we'll spend that extra money. Because you're diluting it over the volume, so it's not incrementally gonna kill you and you just have to.

Yeah. So listeners, I think you get a sense of what I'm talking about when I say obsessed. If your competitors are testing 1 out of 100 and you're testing every filter 3 times, you could see the difference here in terms of the actual product itself. And I really appreciate you sharing those details with us, Curt. Now, once you started to get the product really dialed in and you have that level of performance that is uncommon in the space or is uncomparable in the space, then you really lean into guerrilla marketing. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, we, we, I I have, have a small staff, but they are really good. I have some of the best ones. So in fact, like tomorrow, 2 or 3 of the influencers, we're taking them down to El Salvador to see what we're doing down there. And, and we've, we've taken Mr. B. East. We've taken all the top ones that you've heard of. We take them out— and Dan Becker and, and Jennifer Davis— we take them on our trips so they can see what we're doing, the impact of, of these things.

So it's credibility. I mean, everybody likes to buy one, give one, that kind of thing. But we, you know, every— we take all our profits and we put them into changing the world because we can. Repellents in the U.S. market, we're pretty profitable. We are the dominant water filter. Just go on any of the trails and that's going to be our filter. So we have that.

We got some new products out with collaboration with Knock Filter, Knock Bladders, that are just killing the marketplace. So that's a profitable part of our business. So we can take those profits because I don't need it. One of the magic here is I do own 100% of the company and I'm Sub-S. So that means all the profits accrue to me if I let it become a profit, but I don't have to let it be a profit. So we burn it off and give them away before it even becomes a profit line. And then when it does become a profit line, we give it to the foundation who then can turn around and give it away too. So, you know, there's no U-Hauls in heaven.

I'm fine. I got, you know, my shirt's 10 years old and it still doesn't look too bad, but get new shoes every 3, 4 years, get a new truck every 4 years. I don't need the money. So I know there's a lot of people that need clean water, so That's what we do with it. And, and it's just fundamental to the company. Everybody's all in, every worker's all in on this.

And that's going back to our title, how to 100x your social impact. So as Sawyer started to grow and you started to build this reputation, Curt, started in the mid to early '80s, you start getting to be the go-to for the U.S. military, maybe other militaries, the hiking and outdoor worlds, Sawyer's products is, you want this, and the company starts to grow. And at a certain point, you made that decision to focus on impact. At one point in our conversation, you told me that 90% of your profits, or over above expenses, get reinvested in impact initiatives and don't get distributed as, you know, salaries or some sort of bonus or some sort of disbursement to a board of directors, right? You really leaned into impact first as a company. Was it always that way, or is that something you landed on over time?

No, it's always been that way. I grew up that way. I mean, I grew up on a farm. We had the little, you know, garden shop at the side of the road. And yes, there's always 13 ears of corn in a dozen, and take an extra cucumber or tomato if you need it, you know. So that, that was baked into the, to the way I grew up. But I don't have to make a profit. What I'm avoiding is paying taxes.

I think we have a better job of dispersing our theoretical profits than the federal government does. So, you know, we say 90% of the profits, it's actually more than that because the profits aren't there. We burn it off before it even becomes a profit. And I have a bank that loves us. They know exactly what we're doing. They also know that I've never missed a payment ever anywhere. Even in the rough times. And I can make money.

So if, you know, enough didn't fall to the bottom, which we then give to the foundation, I can always put more down there. You know, you just give away a little bit less there and give away a little bit more at the bottom. So we— and the book explains how to do some of that. So it's flexible. We do a lot of research because we had to prove all this stuff. You can't just go out there and make these claims. Everything I'm telling you is published in medical journals and available on our website. So for instance, right now with our product that's coming out we've in— made an absolutely put two products together as one.

We can, for 30 cents, one-time investment of 30 cents, give somebody 10 years of clean water. I mean, that's staggering when you can do that. So how do you not? How do you not do that? Because, you know, we do about 2, 3 million people ourselves through the charities and they do some more. So we're past the 40 million market in terms of people who have gotten clean water. We're now to where we can do 20, 30 million a year. I mean, if the funding shows up, I mean, for 30 cents a person, how can you not explode that, you know?

Yeah. So talk to us about— so our listeners, Kurt, are impact-oriented entrepreneurs who, like yourself, you aren't, know, thinking that grants or government are the best way to make the world a better place. And you've been able to impact more people's lives in a very positive way. Some of them would have died if they didn't have your products. You've learned something about helping at a scale. You said, you know, 20 million people before you sort of hit another gear, and now it's, you know, millions every year. What would you say to our audience about how they can learn how to have much higher impact than what they've been able to do for?

Well, first, let me take you back to the book. So the book is 25 years of, you know, 40 years of wisdom in the marketplace and 25 tips on how to make your business more profitable. Some of them you can learn on the internet, you know, bell curves and life cycles and all that. Some are things that we came up with that we've developed personally inside. So we want to make your business more profitable. If it's more profitable, don't you have more to give away? So you do. So it's a mindset. But then give it away smartly so everybody can— you don't have to do what we're doing.

You can do it locally. I mean, we believe in the biblical model, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and othermost parts of the world. So we actually do stuff in our county. We do stuff in the country. We take veterans out on camping trips because they need that, you know, and stuff like that. And we do all the international stuff. So, but whatever you have, you have a skill set or you would not be successful. What is that skill set? How can you share it to help other people come along? I use the example of a restaurant.

Okay, so it's not that you have leftover food. It's the fact that you buy at wholesale and the people who need it are paying retail or convenience store prices. So look at that gap that you can, you can close for them. So let's make your business more profitable so you can buy more food at wholesale and give it to people who are paying retail plus. And whatever it is, an accounting, or you have a skill set that the world needs, or you wouldn't be a successful business right now. Now, how do you take— stay within your skill set, stay within your passion, and find a place somewhere locally or all the way international that it can fit? There's things called business as ministries where you can go overseas and teach them what you know. You can, you know, there's Accountants Without Borders, Engineers Without Borders, Doctors Without Borders. Whatever your skill set is, you you can, can share it.

Yeah, absolutely. So here you are, know, you 30, 40-plus years into this journey, and you're still launching new things. As a matter of fact, earlier, right before we hit record, you were telling me about a baby wrap business where you're helping reduce malaria in infants in Africa and other places. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, that one just kind of jumped up. We've known it and we've done some studies way, way back with Tulane University, but nothing came of it. But then we worked with this, some professors out of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and they took our product that we treat the uniforms with. We treat the hunters' clothes and the hikers' clothes with it called permethrin. You'll see it on our website in the yellow can, yellow can or spray bottle. And that, that eliminates mosquitoes. It repels them, it kills them, whatever. So, you know, the military, every, every military uniform has it on it, whether we put it on or they put it on at the mill and we retreat it later.

It's, it's a given. So we've known what it could do. So he, we sponsored, helped sponsor him. He went over, started treating the baby wraps. Now the moms carry the baby on their back in a wrap, much like we would do a Snuggly, they do a wrap. So he treated the rats with our permethrin and found out that we reduced malaria among the babies by 67% or two-thirds. And boom, JAMA picked it up, published it, New York Times picked it up, started to put the coalition together. So we're off to the races now 'cause, you know, 5 to 6% of all the babies die of malaria and we can prevent that.

So we're off to the races on that one. That's brand new. We'll, we're gonna give 'em the military treatment, a little bottle in a bag, and they soak the clothes and soak the wrap. We can also do the mom's dress. All that is just happening like now.

Yeah, that's so exciting. So two things that, in addition to creating an incredible product, Curt, two things that sitting over here I think are unique about the story you're telling us is number one, the research, the way you're partnering with really world-class research and the way you can you've chosen to make sure you have evidence to back up claims. And the second thing is, once you have that evidence, the way you're creating partnerships. But let's, let's start with the research first. Talk to us. It's not common for most businesses— I actually, I would say it's very uncommon for most businesses to have the level of attention to research that you have. Why do you have it, and how do you get, you know, UNC Chapel Hill or, you know, other institutions that you've been able to engage in this research. How do you do that?

Well, first of all, why do we need to do it? So I told you earlier that we can give somebody 10 years of water for 30 cents, and you're going to say you're crazy. But if I prove it to you, you can't tell me I'm crazy. So I have to, otherwise all that we've done, you're going to think is nuts. So we started a long time ago. Proven this out. We have the— whether it's a barcode or now the filters come with a QR code, we track every filter individually. Each one's a unique filter. We'll know within a few inches of where it is.

And we run tablets, we ask the questions, get the measurements. I'm gonna say in the last 10 years, we probably spent between $10 and $15 million in research proving our claims. Otherwise, our claims are so bizarre nobody's going to believe them. I mean, it's nuts to say within 2 weeks you wipe out sickness. I mean, come on, seriously. So I had to prove it. And all the other things— we, we save them 10 to 15% of their income, the kids can go to school 30% more, the parents can work 30 extra days, on and on and on. But if we didn't prove it, how are you going to get anybody? Now, we've not used outside money.

We haven't used any grants or anything yet. Okay, now we're probably to the point where we can launch it and go big. And so yeah, people are nibbling that, yeah, maybe we will give you $10 million and you go save 30 million people or whatever we're doing. And so we did this all over the world. We've done 7 little countries, 1 big country. Now I'm focused on doing countries because if I, if I, if we do Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras in the next 2 years where nobody in the country is sick from water, I'll get your attention. So we're working with Child Hope through the schools, teachers teaching all stuff, and we're working with OAS, Organization of American States, who's very well connected. So that's our focus now.

We can do that. Sawyer itself can do that for those 3 countries, and then the ball rolls. So, you know, first we proved it. Now we're creating models that say, yeah, we can do this. We know how to do this.

And if somebody was listening, Curt, that idea of both engaging research institutions and the kind of partnerships you're talking about, right? You know, multinational child wellbeing organizations that you have these partnerships with other businesses. What would you say to somebody who would like to do more of this and is, you know, new to it? They don't know how to get started with approaching research scientists at a university, or they don't know how to engage a particularly, you know, a partnership with an organization that could really help them have more positive impact. What kind of advice do you have?

Well, first of all, there's always researchers willing to research something for you. That's what they do. It depends on what unit. I mean, we're in the entomology world, so there's entomologists all over the place happy to help us, or microbiologists that are happy to help us. There's going to be a science behind whatever it is you do. Somebody out there is doing it and they would be more than happy to take your dollars or help raise money. One of this one with the baby wraps, you know, we're doing it and I'm funding some research, but they're also going to NIH and they're going to get a big grant to continue the research. But I have other questions and I'm going to finance that research, tax deductible.

To answer those questions. Sawyer, we started out, we needed all the credibility of that, but now we don't. We have enough credibility now. Like, we, we have ministers of health of certain countries that say, I don't need to see that, I know Sawyer's right. They got it, you know, because I've built enough reputation that we have enough authenticity. So you just got to start. Start by finding out what are your questions. You first, you got to say, what, what questions do I need to answer to know that I'm solving a problem? And what questions do I— when I have that answer, how will I gain publicity because I answered this question and have the solution to this question? And then I'll guarantee you, you'll find somebody who wants to do the research for you.

Yep, great tips, Curt. And I'll say, very different, like, you know, context, But I'm the co-founder of a tech for good collaboration here in New Mexico called NM Tech Talks. And we do things like an impact hackathon. Our most recent one was climate-focused. And we're talking, we get data for free from organizations like Sandia National Labs, one of the premier research institutions on the planet, because they're excited about what we're doing to help the diverse population of New Mexico learn how to use tech to have positive outcomes in our community. And whether it's, you know, the University of New Mexico or Sandia National Labs or City of Albuquerque, we found people incredibly willing to show up and help with that mission because they feel, you know, we're not same as you. It's— this is not a for-profit institution. This is us doing this on our own time to try to engage young people in learning how to do tech for good in a more results-oriented way.

And the amount of generosity and care in terms of sharing datasets that can be shared so our hackers can build things on real-world data that is the same kind of data that a PhD scientist from Sandia National Labs is using, that it, provides a lot of value, and they're doing it because they resonate with our mission. So if you have a strong mission, listeners, and you help the people you're talking to understand how your mission helps real people have their lives be better, the amount of generosity I've seen is— and it sounds like, Curt, you know even more about this— but trust your mission and tell that story, and I think you might be surprised at the kind of results you would see. Is that Fair to say, Kurt?

Sure, absolutely. And, and the other thing to remember is researchers always want to publish something because that's how they build their resume or CV, if you will. So they're, they're out there, you know. And I, I got to believe, you know, I don't know this person's expertise, but we got this thing, a little thing called Google searching. You know, you're going to find somebody, researcher somewhere, that's interested in your, your area. So cool.

So let's do this. In a minute, I want to come back and I want to hear more about what Sawyer looks like now, where you're going, a little bit more about the book, and a few more suggestions from your 40-plus years, Kurt, to our listeners. Before we do that, I just want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor.

If you're an impact-driven founder working to raise capital or grow your clean tech or social enterprise, and you're feeling the strain of doing it all yourself, I want you to know there's another way. Over the past 18 years, I've helped purpose-driven founders build traction faster through fractional business development and capital raising support. I've also interviewed more than 300 of the world's most accomplished social entrepreneurs and climate tech innovators on the Awarepreneurs Podcast, giving me a front row seat to what truly works. When it comes to impact and scale. When we work together, you don't just get a consultant, you get an experienced professional on your team who's helped build hundreds of impact ventures and gain access to a robust global network of investors and partners who can accelerate your progress. So if you're tired of starting from zero and trying to figure it out alone, let's talk. You can move faster with integrity and clarity By bringing on an experienced professional without the cost of a full-time hire. If you'd like to learn more about my fractional business development and capital raising support, please reach out to me at www.paulzellizer.com.

So welcome back everybody. I am here with Curt Avery of Sawyer Products and we are talking about how to 100x your social impact and It— before the break, Curt, we were talking about some of the ways you're engaging with research institutions and strategic partnerships. I want to get back to that level of impact, right? In the intro that I read your bio, you talked about partnerships with 140 nonprofits in more than 80 countries, and.

Now.

Like— you're your sort of service area now has become whole countries at a time. Right? And the level of impact that you're having is in the millions now, to the millions every year. And yet you do that on a very small team, and that's very unique. I haven't seen this level of impact with the kind of small team that Sawyer has. I found that very interesting, and I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit more. And it seems to me like these strategic partnerships that you have are big way that you do that, one of the ways you get that kind of massive impact of millions of people with quite a small team. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, it, it's how you define team. You know, that word out there now is stakeholders. So it turns out that our partners are really part of the team. I mean, we're really nestled in with them because they have found, you know, the 3 ways you impact the world are to be able to do your— most of them start with passion, they want to do something, but food, medicine, water. Those are the 3 entrees to get the attention of an audience in an underdeveloped country. So we obviously do water, but we impact the other 2. So even the medical people say, you know, forget the medicine, bring filters 'cause we're gonna get rid of the disease before it happens.

Yeah.

And the food part of it, 1/3 of the nutrients are eaten by the parasites, which we take out of the body. So therefore the food goes further and better and the kids grow again. So we're into all of 'em in a way. But yeah, there we are really nestled in because I don't think anybody in the water's gonna, unless they're drilling wells, they're not gonna use another filter. We're the only point of use filter anybody's gonna use 'cause it's proven itself and we're not expensive. These things are less than $20, you know, and they last 20, 10, 20 years. So there's no better value out there, but We are really close with these people, really close. And even our foundation, which is run by our daughter and will own Sawyer when I— we call it exit the market physically or mentally.

And I do have to have my brain tested every few years to make sure I'm still not making stupid decisions. But we run, we run webinars for them every month, 50-some NGOs go online and we bring in a guest to speak about something that would help them be better. So that's how tight we are with these NGOs. I mean, we've helped them. Some of these have gone from $10,000 a year to $5 million a year because we've worked with them and helped them and taught them the metrics. They have the same issue. They— if you want to raise big bucks, you can raise little bucks by doing the passion, you know, give you a picture of the kid or whatever. You want to raise big bucks, you have to have metrics to show that you're making a difference.

That's when the philanthropists get in, want to know, they want the ROI. They want to know that they're really changing communities, not just one person at a time, but communities at a time. And we do that. We can change whole communities within a year. So that's it. That's our whole team. Our team is the 140 charities, plus a few people back here just saying, here's what we need. And we go with them.

We got people travel all over. Helping them. We've had to develop— see, we're not just a filter, we're a whole system. You know, we have to change behavior. Changing behavior requires best practices. So we've had to develop it over the years how to— and now somebody comes in, we can just walk them right through how to get to the endpoint without going down the learning curve. So that's what a lot of what we do too. It's the metrics.

We have We have the QR code. You hit it with a smartphone and you'll come up. You got instructions in 18 languages, and we can add more if you got a dialect that you need. So we'll give you videos. So, you know, even if a teacher's not there, you can self-teach yourself how to install and maintain. We have WhatsApp. If you have a problem, you can call us. We can get— we have AI.

We'll sort down the answer and give it back to you. If you have more questions, we'll get you to a person. So it's behavior change. It's not just giving them a filter, it's helping them learn how to use that filter to change their lives.

Love that. So oftentimes we get focused on the physical product or the, the app or the platform, and we don't think about the human element. And I love that you bake that into your solution. Couple things about that metrics part of things, Curt. You all have been super precise, engaged, world-class scientists, and you can tell me in this interview Hey, this baby wrap business, which just started, by the way, you already know that it reduces malaria at 67% and that currently 5 to 6% of babies in affected areas die. You have very concrete, like, public health-focused data about both the water filtration and the insect repellent part of your businesses. Something that I thought was really interesting in addition to that When we talked before the interview, you also have things like sustainability. You've thought about the aspect of— in other solutions in a lot of the communities that have to boil water, and a lot of that would use limited resources of wood or, you know, coal, which is terrible for the environment.

So you've started to think about what those impact measurements are in a more holistic way. You have those very strong public health impact measurements and statistics, but you also have them on things like sustainability, gender equity, how this changes women's life, not having to go collect the wood and boil the water, etc., etc. Also some economic opportunities about women starting businesses, food businesses, etc., right? So one of the things as we talked, I was like, not only are you providing very precise measurements at scale in terms of your impact, but also thinking about impact in a holistic way that, as somebody who's been doing this for quite a long time, we're coming up on our 400th interview, I haven't seen this kind of holistic thinking when it comes to measurement. Talk to us a little bit more about, like, how do you see those out-of-the-box measurements when mostly, if you're a water filtration company, people might be thinking, okay, cool, think about public health implications. How did you start thinking about gender equity and economic development and sustainability when that isn't really the sort of the portal you walk through?

Well, now you have to— you get into the cultural issues. So for instance, you know, what you're going to do in Honduras is not what you're going to do in Zambia. I mean, there's just cultural differences of how they do it and what they do. Yeah, we, we've got it to where we can start microbusinesses. So the, the first time ever they have water clean enough to make food to sell. So you, you create that. We saved the mom, the mother, 3 hours a day of not preparing drinking water and stuff like that. That this'll blow your mind.

We, we're one of the greenest things on the planet because you don't have to boil the water with fossil fuels or a lot of times propane or whatever. We have calculated that each filter can save up to 200 trees per year, or equivalent fossil fuels. I mean, what, what, one little filter can save that much? And that's money they save, that's trees they've saved. I mean, you know, look at, uh, Hispania. We got, from the sky, you got Dominican Republic green as could be and Haiti brown as could be because they've chopped all the wood down. Well, what happens with that? Now you got mudslides when the rains come and all that kind of stuff. So the environmental impact of this filter is staggering as well. And we, we don't really tout that just yet because because it's easy to do the economic things.

But like, again, with the baby wraps coming— every time you answer a question, you got another one coming up. And then it might just be because now you're in a different part of the world and those cultural things make a difference, you know. And the baby wraps, yeah, there's a lot of data out there, but have we factored in how hard is she going to clean, wash the, the thing? Is she going to beat the permethrin out of it because she hits rocks to get the poop out of those baby wraps? There's no diapers over there. Remember that. What about all that UV light? Another thing that breaks it down. Do we have it dosed up enough that it's gonna last or is the UV light gonna kill it? I mean, how they, how often they're gonna wash it, how hard they're gonna wash it. There's a lot of new variables that have never been studied. The military did almost all the research, but those aren't questions the military has to answer.

So it, as soon as you get in and I gotta answer 'em cuz people are gonna ask the question.? And if you wanna have metrics to get people to put big money behind you, you gotta have answers to those questions. So we will be testing all that. I, I agreed to fund that part of it. They're doing another part of it that it's a big NIH study, but I've agreed to finance the answers to the questions I need to know that nobody in the 40, 50, what, 50 years of, 60 years of permethrin, nobody's ever answered these particular questions. We have to know that for me to be— feel comfortable that the people that shoot, you know, the so-called experts because they're 40 miles away from home, don't take potshots because the questions aren't answered and they're going to give you a hypothetical theoretical issue. So I got to get those answers now and get them published and, you know, and I got to know. I mean, I don't want to do something that's going to hurt the baby. Of course I don't.

Yeah.

So we need those questions anyway. So one thing leads to another, another, another. So there's endless amount of studying research and a lot of it can be anecdotal. You know, you have enough experience, you know, by the time you treat, you know, 2 million people a year, you have enough evidence as to what's going on. You know, so some of it needs to be formal research and some of it just needs to be— I, I tangled with a professor one time who was saying in the lab, this, this, this, this, and this. And I said, ma'am, when you do a million people, anecdotal data trumps laboratory data. You, you did your study wrong, but let me tell you, a million people aren't getting sick. You know, you, you butchered the filter in the lab, but you know, real world, we can't keep a million people safe every year if it isn't working.

So she said, you're right. And they just parked that whole thing, actually fired the professor. So, it's out there. So, yeah, you have to answer those questions.

Yeah. So, Curt, the subtitle of the book is How a Small Company Disrupts Markets and Changes the World. And 40 years in, you're still innovating. You just launched this baby wrap. It's like live. It just like just happened, right? You're not putting your feet up on the coffee table and saying, okay, we're done now. You're constantly looking for more ways to have positive impact. And I'm super curious about that? Like, talk to us about the mindset.

Is it— is this a Curt thing? Is this a team thing? Like, how, how does this way of being get shared to more impact companies?

Well, first of all, it does take the one— I, I delegate. I got really, really good people. But it does take the one person at the top thinking outside the box. And I don't even know where the box is. I'm too far outside the box to know where the box is.. But for instance, this last one that we're about to launch, our next level, most of our water filters have been used in rural settings because that's where the missionaries go. I said, but you know what, statistically far more people are getting sick in the cities than in the rural, so let's put this on the taps and the faucets and stuff. But we'd never done that before, so we had— I went and see and Odette Victoria in Mexico, and we went in there and I said, okay, we have 3 different systems.

We have— we can put it on the tap, we can put it in a bucket, and we can just plain take it and screw it on the top of a bottle and drink. I said, we need to prove that they're all the same. Well, if they're all the same, and actually the tap filter is by singly the best because it can do one, one $20 tap filter can do a couple hundred gallons a day every day for the next 10 years. That's a lot of water. That's a lot of people you can serve. And it turns out, you know, traditionally nobody would've said that. Nobody's working urban., but I'm saying we can open up the whole urban area for the NGOs because we now have the solution to the urban problem. And it turns out in Sierra Nevada, Victoria, everybody wanted the tap filter, but the flexibility to take the filter off and put it on top of a bottle so they could go.

So that's, you know, I mean, you're talking 20 years we've been doing this and we finally got the answer. The solution is to take 2 of our products and make 'em into one. That product's not even out of the, outta the gate yet. It'll come out in the next, within the next 30 days, that product will be available. I have the 2 pieces, not the 2-in-1. So you, you know, till somebody asks the question, why not do the cities? That's a huge question, because seriously, the 140 NGOs are really not working in the city. They're going out to where people are taking them out of ponds, rivers, whatever, or wells, or whatever they're doing. And yet 90% of the people getting sick are in cities.

So we just totally— talk about disrupting a whole NGO concept— we just opened up all of urban to everybody now to do their charity work.

Yeah.

So that's how, that's how you talk about disrupting. You, you always got to be thinking of what else, what's the bigger problem, how can we solve.

Love.

That.

That, Kurt. So decades in You're helping millions of people per year in 2026. We're recording this early in January. This will go live in February, right? So, you know, millions of people projected to help in 2026. Look ahead 5 years. What do you think SOAR looks like 5 years from now? How many people are you helping then?

Oh, I would be disappointed if we aren't doing 30, 40, 50 million a year, new people a year. You know, we, we're doing 2 or 3 million, 4 million a year new people, but with the cumulative is up past the 40 million mark. I, with this new filter, and I do, people are starting to nibble. We're starting to get people's attention. And, you know, we might even get into foreign policy with the State Department. I don't know. We have the capacity to do 30, 40, 50 million people per year. And I would be very disappointed if we aren't doing that in a couple of years.

It's really inspiring, Curt. Curt, I can hang out with you all day, and you wrote a book so people don't have to hang out all day, and you're busy. If you were gonna share something that we haven't talked about yet, or do you want to leave our social entrepreneur listeners with something as we start to say goodbye, what would that be?

I do— first of all, I have a big God, so that kind of drives a few things here. But wherever you come down on that one, think big. You got one life, right? You come and you're gone. Why not? We don't have debtor prisons. If you have a solid business plan, why not think big? What do you got to lose? You got one shot at it. Life is over. Why not? So think big. Don't, don't, you know, in, in the religious world, I'm saying you can make God as small as you want God to be, or you can let him be as big as he is, and then I'm not doing this.

He's doing this. So there's no reason you can't think big. We're in America. Now, if you grew up in Zambia, you couldn't do this. But you're in the greatest country that ever existed. You can think big here. The resources are there. The money will be there.

You know, if you make, you know, we hopefully the book will keep you from making bad mistakes. But if you do, you'll recover some cost, you know, or no bankruptcy, you recover. I mean, it's no debt or prisons anymore. So What keeps you from thinking big? And, and that you share it. Okay, so know what you know and know what you don't know. And if you don't know, you surround yourself with people that do know what you don't know, and you trust that. But go for it.

Beautiful. Curtis, somebody wants to get a hold of you, get a hold of the book, what's the best way to do that?

Well, the book is obviously on Amazon. If you want a signed copy, you can go to soya.com and order one. But just easiest way to get me is Sawyer.com.

Just.

Hit customer service and they'll get to me. I'm a little insulated because I'm not a real people person. I kind of am, but you know, I get a lot of, a lot of inquiries. Somebody's trying to buy the company every week and it's never going to be for sale because we couldn't do what we're doing if we sold. So just go Sawyer.com, just hit, you know, customer service and It'll get to me if you need to talk to me. I'll get back to you.

Awesome. Great.

If you want to participate, there's the foundation too. If somebody wants to donate money, 100% of any money donated will go overseas projects. There's no overhead involved in the donation side of the business. Covers Sawyer, covers all that, and it's minimal anyways.

Cool. So listeners, all the links to that, to the book, to the Sawyer site, the Sawyer Foundation, All that will be in the show notes. So please go get the book, tell your friends. Curt, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Oh, thank you for giving us a shot to tell our story. I know it sounds crazy, but we got the data to prove it.

It's super inspiring. So listeners, let's do what we do. Please, I know you know somebody that could benefit from the book and learning about how to have impact at such an incredibly inspiring scale. So thanks for joining and listening in. If this episode stirred something in you, please share it. I know you know someone who could benefit from this lawyer message. Also, if you're ready to develop a strategy for your own impact business, whether you're looking to help more people or need help raising capital, you can learn more of my services at paulzellizer.com. Until next time, please keep working for positive impact and letting your values guide your business.