Claire Venus interviews Leonie Dawson.m4a

Hello. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Sparkle on Substack. With me, Claire Venus. I'm so excited to have the most amazing guest with me this evening. My time and morning time. Her time, I think. So I'm going to let Leone introduce themselves.

They're going to tell us a little bit about who they are in the world and what they do, and then we're going to dive into some questions. So hi.

Oh, hi, my darling Claire. It's a joy. We just talked, like, a week or two ago, and I love that we get to do this again. It's just an abundance of riches.

It's so nice because we actually well, I feel very connected to you because I've been learning with you for about three years now. I bought the first course with you at the very start of the Pandemic, so we have this live experience together through money manifesting and multiple streams of income, which is one of Leonie's amazing courses. And it was like, live when the Pandemic hit the whole world, so it was such a precious space to spend time in that's our kind of connect isn't was.

It was an OD time and also just an enormously blessed time as well. People are so desperate for connection, and it was just a joy to be there and to witness people for it.

And to learn zoom.

Yes. God, we were on a real crash course, didn't we?

Yeah. So would you just tell us a little bit about who you are in the world and what you do that would be so lovely for anybody that doesn't know yet? I know that I've mentioned you a few times to my online audience, which is growing by the day. So I would love for you to just do that for anybody who hasn't heard of your beautiful work yet.

Oh, you're so lovely. And yeah, I have a horrible habit of not answering questions. So, welcome to the Leonie Show.

It's a PJ party. It's fun.

Yeah. When people ask me what I do, I say I talk shit on the Internet. That's my job. I write books. So I have my goal workbooks that people can set their goals for their lives and their business for the year ahead. And they've been used by, like, half a million people worldwide now, which is just so delicious and divine. And I can't believe it because I really just made them for me. And now I've just got half a million friends who use them with me, which is really cool.

I also create a lot of courses and programs about business and marketing and getting organized and working less and earning more and marketing without social media, because I left social media for a couple of years and I brought in over to $2 million without it. So I just taught the techniques I used in that. Yeah, just a whole bunch. Whatever topic I get excited about, I teach about it.

And you're an illustrator as well, right? So you've got this beautiful way of visually communicating and that's what hooked me in. Like, I was like, wow, this is a completely different way to learn. That was it really?

Yeah, it's like, for me, words are just intrinsically entwined. I can't do without and also have my beloved brilliant Biz and Life Academy, which is where I take all of my courses, my workbooks, my coaching, everything I do. And I make it super accessible for people to be able to access everything. So they get over $5,000 of my life's work, really. And it's under $100 a year. So it's very accessible and very joyful. We've got over 4000 members, which is super cool. It's been less than a year since we opened.

And yeah, I love being able to serve and love up on people in those ways.

Yeah, it's gorgeous. And I'm in that space and it's been so expansive for me at this point in my career, post Pandemic, post Baby now in this kind of space of looking after a toddler and reevaluating what I am and what I can do with being such a multi hyphen in the way that I show up in the world. I realized in the Pandemic, through learning from Leoni that actually there are so many different ways to earn money. And I'd been really boxing myself in and feeling quite stifled, really, by this kind of high risk, high reward, this kind of, okay, we'll write another big funding bid and there'll be all these amazing artists and creatives as part of it, and then we'll get the money and we'll deliver. It'll be amazing. And then we'll all lie down for a like, I was just so tired of that. And I just really was curious about other ways of being. And I know with Leone's alumni and people that I've stayed connected to through the courses, I've watched it happen online.

I've watched it happen for them, and I've watched them be really brave and show up and I've chatted to them behind the scenes. And I've been like, what's that feel like? And I feel like it wasn't my time until it was. And here on Substac, I feel like it's my time and I just feel in flow with it all the time now. Leonie, I don't think you have dabbled about with Substack. Have you read any substacs? Have you been on there? Have you got curious yet about Substac as a platform?

Oh, I haven't done it myself. I've looked at it, I've got oh, is that something I should explore? But I basically already function as a Substac and I have for years in terms of I blog and I have a subscription service, like, where people get all my crap.

That's it. And that was exactly what I felt when I was kind of coming up with the questions for you. The first one was around how did you start out blogging. And was your blog and your kind of email list, were they kind of light bulb moment at the same time, or did one feed the other? Like, how did that work for you?

I started the blog first because this is back in 2004 that I started my blog, and I had only just really heard of blogging. And I was like, what? You can write every day and share it with people? That is amazing. Oh my God, I'm so obsessed. Please. Yes. I couldn't wait. And also, I'd had this really beautiful experience when I was a teenager, I sent myself to boarding school. I lived on a cattle farm.

I had one high school that I could go to locally. I went to that for a few years, absolutely hated it. And so I tell my parents, hey, I'm going to boarding school. And bless them, they were very supportive and they let me choose where I went. And I ended up going to this small, beautiful boarding school that was filled with kids from very, very remote cattle properties and from First Nations communities around Australia and Papua New Guinea. And so it was a very diverse and loving group of kids and young adults. And so I was in a dorm with 20 other girls, and I had a fantastic art teacher, and he would give us all these journals, these black a four hardcover journals. And he, this is your room.

This is your space to create and dream. When I look at your book, your art journal, I should be able to see all your thought process, what leads you to create your big art pieces, like all the things that are going on, the research, the sketching, all the trying out. This is your home. And I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard in my life. I know, he was fantastic. And then he had this, like you.

Were about, what, 40, around 14 then? Something like that. I was 16, yeah.

It was for my higher school years. And he had books on Krishna Murti and all these very esoteric spiritual teachers and stuff like that, and very 70s music. Like, he was the one who introduced me to James Taylor, who was now one of my most beloved musicians. So it was just a very cool experience, honestly. And so I would go into my art journal at the dorm, and I would create and write and add photos and collage and draw and just pour myself into this combination of writing and whatever artistic representation I wanted. And then people would see what they're doing, and they're like, what are you doing? And I was like, oh my God, do you want to read my art journal? And they're like, yes. Isn't this private? I'm like, no, nothing's private. And so somebody would take my art journal, and then it would get passed around the dorm and people would take turns reading it.

It was like, has Leoni created the next part of the art journal yet? And it became a bit of a thing, and it was just so exciting to me because what happened is when people read my art journal, I felt more connected with them because they would know what was going on with me. But this very much excited me. It inspired them to create their own art journals, and some of them also wanted to share it back. And so I would get to read other people's art journals, and it was this beautiful little creative ecosystem that the more I created, the more it fed the ecosystem and the more I got to consume other people's stuff. And I just was obsessed. So when I heard about blogs, I immediately thought of like, oh, my God, this is like sending my journal out into the world again, but I don't have to go and find it when I want to work on it again, try and work out which girls got my journal. And so it was just this practice of like, oh, I can feed the creative ecosystem and it thrills me, and also then it might inspire other people to create, and then I'll be able to read that stuff, and then it'll inspire me even more. So, yeah, blogging was 2004, and that was really my main excitement and passion.

And I started building the mailing list sort of on the side. The blog always informed the content for the mailing list, but I didn't sort of realize the importance of a mailing list until a little bit later, maybe 2008 or so. So I focused more on the blog first.

Yeah. Wow. And just listening to you tell that story there, that is it, isn't it? That is the way the internet works, the way that you worked in that little microcosm of everybody connecting to your work and then feeling inspired. And I guess for you, it was just flowing out, right? It was just like, I want to make this this is making me really happy and making me feel really connected, and I can just lock on with these ideas. And then to them, they were like, I might try that. Right?

Yeah. It was just this amazing little petri dish, really. And it's just something that I would do no matter what, even if it didn't turn into a job or anything. It was just the most fun ever.

Yeah. And I think that permission slip as well, from that teacher or tutor or whatever that gave you this precious black book I was imagining. It sort of a four side, like quite. It is. So that's an amazing permission slip to be like, here's your home, go forth, create, like, how amazing. And sometimes it is just that, isn't it? I think a lot of the conversations that I have with the people who I chat with on Substac are like, around this kind of permission or around this heavy rulebook of social media. And these were the rules on social media. Like, we must play by the rules of social media.

And it's like, no, you don't have to do that on Substack. You can just create. There is no algorithm, and they are supporting you to meet other people and other creators. And it started out as a writer's platform and then very quickly with more illustrators and more kind of hybrid creatives like myself. And I was like, this is the most fun ever, and just kind of put social media down for a while just because it was fun, it was more fun. And I feel like every time I opened social media, I was having to be like my own therapist. And I was like, oh, it just feels a lot. And on Substack, it just felt spacious and it just felt an invitation to be creative and to take up space.

And I was like, I'm ready for that. I'm ready for that. And I totally connect with that stuff that you were saying about old school blogging. Lots of people have related it to that, and I never really did that. I tried to start one. It was called Run with Your heart, not with your Legs.

Yes, I agree with that.

Right? And I didn't really know. I was talking about baking cakes and running marathons. Those were like my two things. But it was creative, right? It was just like a space. And I think that I didn't understand what I plugged into, whereas it sounds like from the off, you were plugging into something you were co creating with the other people in the room and the other people at the school and stuff. And then that's kind of continued, right, online. It's just spilled into that and continues.

Yeah. For me, my two main mottos is Create and share. And it feels like, to me, creating is interwoven with the sharing. I can't separate them, and I've never been able to really separate them. It doesn't mean that everything I create is for public consumption. It's just that I derive an enormous amount of joy from being able to share and whether it comes back because somebody has emailed in. I wrote this illustrated zine about experiencing hyperemesis gravidarum, which is a chronic pregnancy illness, and for my own personal therapeutic things, I needed to write about it because it was so horrific to go through. So I created this scene and I put it out in the world.

I just wanted to share it. I just wanted to offer it up. And I felt enormously healed from that. But I still get emails from people who have found it via Googling, Kabram, Scrap, Dharm, or they've been given it because now some midwives and things like that keep it as a resource for people. And I'll just get these emails like, I was feeling so alone in this hell and, oh my gosh, you actually understand me. And I created that ten years ago. And it just brings so much comfort to my heart to know that that creation didn't just heal me, but also offered a hand out to another person who was suffering.

That's so beautiful as well. I know that you did one for the pandemic. I can't remember what you called it, but I remember that I printed it and stuck it inside another hand stitched journal that I'd made. And I would sit in the garden pregnant with my daughter and just color bits of it in and just think about those invitations. And I really think it set the tone for our pandemic experience. Like, we had the most beautiful time. There was tadpoles in the pond. I watched the garden.

It felt like for the first time since we'd moved to Northumberland, and it just slowed everything down. And I think it was just that kindred spirit reminded me, like, it's okay to take time over creativity, because my creativity for work had just been so fast paced for so long and plugging into communities that felt really stretched and were dealing with so many difficult issues. It always felt so heavy. So I would come home and just be like, wow, I really want to do this work, but I don't know how much longer I can do it for. And then with this, it was just this gentle invitation to do the work just from my doorstep, just to color in a little bit, have a chat with a neighbor, have a think about something else. And it's like this beautiful keepsake now, so I totally connect, even though I didn't have that pregnancy condition. It just sounds an awful experience for people, but yeah, it's pure magic. You work.

I love it.

Oh, that makes me so happy. And I do have a special place in my heart for the quarantine planner, I assume it is. Yeah. And I wanted to create our time.

Yeah, that was it.

Just like, how do we want to spend our time? What do we want to do? And some creative ideas. And you're right, I still remember with real tenderness because I filled out. I made it for myself and then I share it with the world. But I remember what I created wrote in there myself. And I love that you talk about the tadpoles. We had a swarm of butterflies. It was just because of the weather conditions and from three months ago. And then they traveled up the coast to get to their next breeding ground.

And so for like a week, we had just swarms of butterflies, and they all just go in the same direction. And I remember riding bicycles with my kids, and we're just covered in butterflies as we did it. And of course, the world was so quiet because everyone was at home, and it was like I don't know, it was just the most euphoric experience. Like, I cannot believe that we're getting to bicycle with butterflies.

What an amazing and there were moments like that, and definitely for us as well, where they just felt otherworldly and majestic and like, wow, we've been doing life wrong. Actually. Not wrong wrong, but we haven't been listening and we haven't been seeing like we think we do. We do a meditation or go to a yoga class and it's like, yeah, I'm listening. I'm switched on. I'm universally connected. It's all good. And then the universe actually presents these vignettes to you and you're like, wait, no, now I'm listening.

When it's as majestic and beautiful as that, how incredible. What type of butterflies were there? Can you remember?

Oh, there were all kinds. It was just amazing. Lots of monarch butterflies were part of it, but it was incredible.

How amazing. That's so cool. I'll stick to our questions because we just will chat about beautiful things.

I know.

So, yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about being social media optional and the way that you currently show up and why. I know you'll have tried lots of different ways within your business, and I see you on the platforms that I use. My husband's always like, did you see Leonie's video today? Which I love. I'm like, oh, yeah, I did. And I just wondered how it feels to you right now and how you're creating the logistics of that. I know you've got a team that you work with and obviously you're compelled to create and share your voice, but how's it all working?

It's an experiment for me. So I came back onto social media at the start of this year. It was surprising that I wanted to do it, but I realized that by having this rule, like, I will never go on social media again. I will never create on social media again. It was starting to become like, just it didn't feel right anymore. Like I didn't want to have any rules for my creativity. I just wanted to show up wherever I wanted to show up. However, I wanted to show up and be free to experiment.

So I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to try it out. If it sucks, obviously I'll just go back off it again. And so I'm pretty good at I don't have any social media apps on my phone. And when I do, I tend to get in trouble because it's just this scrolling thing. So where I've gotten to the point is I have no social media apps on my phone. I also have Facebook and Instagram blocked as websites on my phone. I'm just trying to stop any compulsion to scroll or just check, do you know what I mean? I also have everything blocked on my computers. And so when I actually want to actually look at comments, which is, to be honest, not very often, I only check them maybe once a week.

My assistant will look at them every day and answer Work DMs or anything like that. But when I do go like, okay, I feel like I want to go check some comments. Then I set like, a timer on that same one. Oh, really? It's the greatest.

The visual timer. Yeah. I don't use it when my husband loves it.

Yeah, it's just so helpful just to know how much time is left. So I set ten minutes. I have a little list of things that I want to do in that time. Like, I'll respond to these comments, look at those comments, check if there's any DMs, because my assistants will leave private DMs in there for me. So go have a look. And then I get off and get on with my life. Like, I really don't look at what other people create. The only exception to that is on Friday nights, me and my two kids, we curl up in bed together and we watch TikToks for an hour before bed, and that's our end of week retreat.

And it's really cute and it's really connecting. So I find when I do get sloppy with those rules, my mental health and my creative confidence and mindset definitely does get affected. And so I have to be really strict on those things in terms of creating the content. For me, it's been helpful to have a scheduler, so I use Smarter Queue, but there's heaps out there not to say that Smarter Queue is the best or anything like that. It's just where I ended up. And so what we did was went through my archive of social media work, the stuff that I was really proud of and the stuff that people resonated with, and we added into the library of content there, and it gets recycled so that it gets reshared. It gets reposted when it starts just becoming a bit old or doesn't resonate anymore, then it just gets removed from that library so it doesn't get recycled again. And then when I'm inspired or, we've created a new resource.

You've got new hair.

Oh, I've got new hair.

I saw a positive day about the new hair, and I was like, wow, look at the new hair. It's amazing.

Love it. I know, I'm so excited. It's just hair, and yet it's not symbolic of everything.

There's that lovely story behind it, and I'm so connected to that, and so will lots of people. Sitting in the hairdressers is not where any of us really want to spend time, I don't think, but sometimes we get called to do that. I have recently for all sorts of reasons, and I really did resonate with that post. It was great.

Oh, that makes me so happy. And yeah, whenever I just have those ideas, I just go into Smarter Queue and I add it to the queue. And of course that won't get recycled because it's just a moment in time, one. But it means that I now have enough content in there that basically it's like the next 400 days has new original content going out every day.

Yeah, that must feel really nice just to know that's all kind of taken care of. And then obviously, the reason that you're doing it is because it's going to fuel your business and it's going to fuel your business model and allow you to kind of work part time hours and do all the other things that you love to do. I know you love to read and spend time with the family and all of that sort of stuff. And so it's that permission slip, isn't it, to kind of go, again, the permission slip. We've got to write that out. But yeah, it's like that's done. I've got my Fridays. I've got my TikTok night with the kids, which sounds really fun.

Yeah. So clever, so smart. And it's just those boundaries, isn't it? And so when you were off social media, how was that for the business? Obviously, you've got all of this amazing content out there and people sharing your work and affiliates and all that sort of stuff. So did you feel like the business felt held or did you feel like might have to go back on or what was it like?

I never thought of going back on for that reason at all. It was more the creative rule thing that really chafed me. Chafed? Yeah, it's a good word, love.

Like the rebellion against your own rules.

I know. I cannot have many rules on myself. Even I notice, like, having to do list planners and stuff like that. I'll do it for two weeks, and then I get the shits with it. I'm like, well, I'm not even going to follow these rules anymore. This is boring. And so I've got to try something else. So I have this whole plethora of different planners, and then I have different programs.

And then at the moment, I'm using sticky notes on my computer to catch my to do list. It doesn't matter what I use. I just need change. And I don't need any rules. Nobody needs to tell me I'm going to do something every single week, otherwise I will die from boredom. I have no idea.

I like that.

Yeah. In terms of how the business was held by social media, without social media, it's because I really relied so really invested so much time on building my mailing list and creating a really beautiful, connected relationship with my people on there. So I already know that people on my mailing list are well, this is not even just mine, but from statistics that are nothing to do with my business. Okay, google, stop. Sorry, that's my morning alarm that's just gone off.

Good morning.

Yeah. Now it's just killed my brain. Oh, yes. So statistically, people on your mailing list are 40 times more likely to buy from you than a social media follower. That's like 40, not 1440. So if you want to grow your revenue 40 times more, spend more time investing in your mailing list than in social media. So I've always placed the highest emphasis on my mailing list and making sure that I turned up for them every single week, created good free content for them was of service and gave them opportunities to dive deeper into the work with me as well. And so I've got 50,000 odd people on my mailing list and that's really like the driver.

Those are my people, those are the ones that have been around for a really long time with me. I have so many people who've been following me since 2004, the early blog days, and earlier because I was on message boards before that, before social media, because it hadn't been invented yet. I'm so old from the internet.

It's so funny because one of the questions that I had for you was about if we went back to the beginning of the internet. So the beginning of the internet for me was I was still at school, I was like year seven, so like 1112, and there were these chat rooms upstairs in the computer room and all the girls were like, oh, my boyfriend's in a chat room, what does it mean? And I was like, oh, what's the internet? And then that carried on for a little bit. And at university there was a computer room and we used to go to the computer room with alcohol and write our dissertations. It was just wild, it was ridiculous. And that's when I got my first hotmail. So I was like 18. And then the internet was like, okay, it's a search engine, it didn't become a creative tool until way later. So yeah, I wanted to ask you, if you went back to the beginning of the internet, would you do anything differently? Would you set out your stall differently? Would you make different decisions or are you really happy with all of the kind of testing and adjusting that you've done?

No, I'm so happy with the testing and adjusting I've done and also the fun I've had along the way. So before blogs were invented and they were around before then, but 2004 was when they really kind of started appearing like authors started using them very for early adopter, authors started using them and some creative people, and that was like, this is very exciting, I need to make a block. But before that I was obsessed with message boards. So there were like phpBB bulletin boards and the author, Sark, who wrote Succulent Wild Woman and just a massive amount of other brilliant, beautiful books, she, bless her, was a very early adopter, so she had a PHP BB for her fans, for her readers, and it was massively popular. It was very exciting. Well, it seemed to me at that early point that was very exciting. There was maybe like how many maybe. 30 new posts a day in there, but long.

And then the comments that were written were very long as well. And it was people would spend a lot of time crafting their response to people, to other people. And I was enchanted. I was absolutely enchanted because here was this group of women and they were sharing the truth of their lives. And I think that's the beauty of Sark as well. She always speaks about the truth of her life, like the uncomfortable stuff and the big stuff and the beautiful stuff. So to see these brave, colorful women doing the same thing was just lit me up with so much excitement. So 2001, I started participating in that message board and I, of course, would start sharing my stories, my photographs, what I made that weekend, all that kind of stuff.

And that was the place that I first got hired. Somebody was like, oh, I love it. Would I be able to buy that artwork from you? And I was like, someone's going to pay me to do something I love. What the heck? I still imagine just absolute disbelief and excitement at that. And I feel really honored as well because so many of those people that I knew from that message board still follow me to this day. And I just did private coaching rounds last year of people paid $5,000 to do, like, a group coaching program. And somebody from that message board who I hadn't really talked to one on one in that time, she just always just kind of followed along what I was doing. She signed up for the coaching and she's like, oh, how again, Leonie, it's been 21 years, but I'm here.

And I was like, what an incredible thing that people still know me and love me and trust me and have followed this journey the whole way through. What a freaking blessing. How cool is that?

Isn't it like such a privilege as well? And as well, because I'm listening to this, I was more nervous about finding my space online. I think I overthought it a lot and wondered about different filters of maybe commissioners or employers that might see it or stumble across it. And then there's been so much crossover with is Instagram okay for work? Is Twitter work? Now. There's LinkedIn. Like, LinkedIn's definitely work. So for me, it's taken a bit longer and I'm just so fascinated in how you were able to just take up space. You were just like, I'm here, I've arrived. You've spoken about your art journals and that sort of thing, but do you think it was just in you in terms of, like, this is my heart centered path.

I'm on it, I'm taking up space. Does it always feel easy and just you're happy to do it?

Yeah. Sorry.

Don't be sorry. I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah.

Well, it just seems like why wouldn't I share it? Because it brings me so much joy to create it. And then if it means that I get to connect with other really cool people, that is my jam. And also I recognize now like, I am a late diagnosed autistic person. I have ADHD as well. That was a beautiful friendship ground for me as well. It was one of the first place, it was where I learned how to be friends with other women and they modeled such beautiful friendship behaviors to me and the least I can do is offer up like a little penguin, the shiny little rock that I've just made or found, like, oh, see this. And they're like, what a beautiful rock. And I'm like really doing this chip thing so well.

And that's the thing, it can feel easy or maybe easier. And I know I found this in terms of not even like an online persona thing because I've really just shown up as myself. I used to kind of Instagram story when I was about to go into work and we had artists working with kids and I would be saying, I'm so excited to go in and this is what we're doing today and I'm going to share some photos and stuff like that and let you know. And people were really compelled to reply and all that sort of thing. And then the other stuff, I guess kind of spilled out from that and I was more confused after that. I knew what I was doing with that bit, but then the other bits and this is the kind of multi hyphen mess that I got myself into a little bit, I think. I think it just started to feel complicated to kind of show up and say the things that I wanted to say. And the easiest time was during the pandemic.

So during pregnancy and the pandemic, which is this whole kind of reshaping of my life and a whole reimagining of that female lineage. And you speak about this a lot. Like I've kind of really connected to your teachings on this, but I realized that I had a lot of healing to do on my female line. And that was why I was really struggling to take up space to try and share my gifts with the world, because I felt like I'd had to model another way of being just to kind of fit in and just to be employable and to keep in this cycle of being self employed in the arts and cultural sector. And it was like crushing. And you showed me another way to that and I'm so grateful for that.

Bless you. And yeah, I never see Risk. Really? And that's not always a great thing, but then I'm still alive, so it doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. And I guess you'll have tightened up your boundaries. Like, there was a master class I was watching where you were like, if you have these opinions, don't email me, I'll not be reading them, have a lovely time sending the emails. They'll not even get to me. And I love that. I was just like, yes. Because obviously the bigger your presence gets online and the more people and the more you are yourself, the more people want to be like, I'm not sure about that. And I've had it a few times on Substack, and substac is an amazingly positive place, but I think a couple of people have been like, I just want to be a bit sarcastic to her, or whatever else.

And I'm like, okay, that's fine. And it is sort of fine for now, but it wouldn't have been a few years ago. It would have been totally crushed. So it's that, isn't it? Like, okay, just this is me, and you don't get to kind of come.

Into my, you know, like, anybody who leaves a shit comment on any social media or they'll just get immediately banned and blocked and deleted. We don't even are as Brene Brown says, we are not like the Jackass whisperers. We don't try and turn around the assholes of the world. That's what the rest of the internet's for. Go fuck off and do that.

Yeah. And there are plenty of places for that, aren't there? Yeah, go find those.

Yeah, go find those. And then I also, as much as I'm an open heart, I do have some strong kind of creative rules for myself. So I don't publicly share photos of my family or stories of really kind of who they are. I used to when my eldest was very young, was a baby and a toddler. And then some things happened. I experienced some trolling and a level of fame that I just wasn't comfortable with exposing my family to. I'm fine with exposing myself to, but not my family. So I kind of shut down those kinds of things.

And I also don't share when I'm going through a difficult time. I usually share from it later once it's healed. If it's just like a hard time where I'm like, oh, I'm going through this thing, it's really hard. I know I'll get through it. Yeah, of course I'll share that. But if I'm in the middle of a depressive episode or something really big and really fucked is happening, no, I'm not going to share about it until I've healed enough from it to get the insight. And also, I don't want the Internet to be my therapist. That's what therapy is for.

That's also like, I'm supposed to go talk to my husband and my dearest friends and my mentors when those things happen. I don't use the Internet for those.

That'S I love hearing about that from you. And I love how open you are about therapy. So in the UK, we've been relatively closed off to it, and I have said a few times about therapy, so I had some postpartum therapy and I was really open about that. I was delivering an Arts council funded project at the time for mothers, and I wanted to be really open about that. And that felt really right, to be open about that. And then there have been other things that I definitely have needed therapy for that I just don't feel like I need to speak about with anybody else. And it's like sometimes there's this kind of sliding scale where someone will reflect back, like, you're so confident or you do this so well, you make it seem effortless and then it really jars. And I'm like, oh, I probably need a therapist to speak about with, because you're like, I don't know what you think I am or what I've created online, but I'm just me.

I'm just me. I get nervous and anxious about things like anyone would, and I'm working through all my things behind the scenes, so I'm still walking that tightrope of if I show up confidently because I feel confident and I've set out the environment to help me. My daughter's at nursery and I've had a good breakfast and I'm ready. That is me bringing my full, confident self, but that's not me, like, who I am in the evenings at home with my husband. So that's really interesting, isn't it? Like, that part when it gets reflected back, like, you seen this and you're like, oh, do I? Okay, that's cool.

And also so much is people's projections as well. I remember years ago, and I still remember it because I just thought it was so hilarious. A customer emailed in with just an absolutely ridiculous request, and my assistant emailed back and, no, no, we don't do that. And she flew into a rage and said, you don't know who Leone is. You haven't even checked with Leonie. If you checked with Leone, she would say yes, because Leonie is an innocent child of play and love and she would never say no to anybody. And I was like, Fuck, no. Incorrect.

That is absolutely incorrect. I am not an innocent child. I'm a full grown fucking adult. And I do say no.

And savvy as well. Super savvy and boundaried. Like wow okay. Somewhere in that person's mind, it was like, this is all going to be okay. Because she'd built that up in a way.

Absolutely.

And also feel like they know you or something.

Yeah, absolutely. And also, of course, that would be something for them to work on themselves, this idea that you can only be playful and loving and childlike if you never say no to anyone. It's very dangerous when you look at that from that perspective.

Yeah. And I think one of the things that when I listen to your podcast where you do your lovely singing and you're like, here I am, I'm in the car, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. I was just like, thank goodness, thank goodness. So I consumed so much podcast content on the commutes to work and like, a lot around creatives, like, online and people being creative outside of the typical way that I was. And I was so into it, but it was so polished and I was like, how on earth? How would I even script an intro? How would I even structure a conversation? It's like, so sophisticated and it's like, must have talked for hours and then edit it down and the jingles and all that. And then there's you. And you're just like, I'm just going to have a little chat with you about some things. And it's so valuable.

And I feel like I have been able to show up in podcasts on Substac and say, I've got half an hour left of my working day. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to do a podcast for ten minutes. I'm going to show press record talk for ten minutes, turn it off, post it perfect. It's been amazing.

Yeah, it just makes me laugh as well because I'd been thinking about doing a podcast and then I was like, I don't want to do all that other shit like the editing and the jingle, the polishing, the topic, the preparation. Like, fuck no, it's just not my jam. And that's why I called it what I did. Leonie Dawson refuses to be categorized because I didn't want to say what the podcast would be about. I didn't want to put myself in a box. I don't want to follow my own. And it's just a running joke now, so I have a jingle, but it's just me just singing whatever god awful tune I've made up for Leonie Dawson reviews to be categorized that day. It's not a recorded thing.

Like, I haven't got out my ukulele and sung a little song and used that as a jiggle. No, it's just like, hey, everyone, you're here.

Straight away, I'm just like, this is brilliant. This is exactly what I need. I think the last one I listened to just telling me about you running out of breakfast, that you really like, just laughing. And it's like, yes, thank goodness. We can be too sincere and too serious. And that just gets really wearing because how do you keep that up? Like, we've got to but it's nice to smile and it's nice to laugh and it's nice to feel connected to people running out of breakfast, like normal things.

Yeah. I was so cranky that day. I was like, My day is fucked.

It just throws everything. I know. That's the thing. It's so beautiful to talk to you and I think just before we finish, because I know time's precious and I'm so grateful that we were able to do this. I wanted to ask you, if you had to ask somebody who is listening to find you just in one place. So one of my aims with Sparkle on Substack and the teachings that I have around slow lived creativity and intentional creativity is to try and make it spacious. So I'm trying to just kind of go, just go one place. Don't feel like you've got to follow this person all over the Internet.

Just go to one place and hang out with them in that one place. So would it be your freebies page? Would you want them to find you on TikTok? What would you want for them right now? Where would they find you?

Honestly, just my website, Leonidawson.com. And you can just go and play there for a little while. If you like. You can go to the free shit page. I have heaps and heaps of freebies, from guides about marketing to 300 page coloring books to meditations to whatever the heck I've created next. There's my blog there. It's been running for nearly 20 years. You can go dive into that if you like, but really just whatever resonates with you, whatever you like to pick up and look around.

And I think immediately when you go to my website, you'll be like, oh, she's one of my people, or I don't get it. And either response is completely valid. So just go. Continue following people that light you up and who are the right fit for you.

That is such good advice, and that's really what I wanted to end with. Obviously, you create in a way that is really authentically, just you, and you've learned so many amazing things in the process of creating online. And I just wondered if you had a couple of pieces of advice or one thing that you wanted to say to people. And usually my people are, like, coming away from social media burnt out and finding substac and being like, thank goodness. Thank goodness I've got more space. Thank goodness I can finally do the thing of building an email list. Thank goodness there are people that actually genuinely want to connect. And it's not that weird, like, fake commenting, fake follow for follow thing.

There's, like, none of that. So they're really finding solace in this long form space, and they feel quite confused and burnt out by other platforms that they might have built, or they've deleted them entirely. Like, there's quite a few people that have connected with me that are like, I've just deleted them all, Claire, and I'm here now. Show me what to do. And I'm like, okay, that's good. Okay, we can do that. So just to give you an idea, that's the sort of creative that seems to be stepping into my world, and I'm so grateful that they're finding me and I'm finding them, I find a real connect. But what would you say to them? What would you have to say to them about their creativity and where they are right now, feeling sort of anxious and burnt out and going, this is my last shot at being online.

I'll just ask I always like to ask guides first to see if they have any things they want to say, okay. They said it was never meant to break you in order to create. And they want you to find the places, the spaces, the ways that you can create that feels joyful and loving and good to you. And it feels like it could be something that you could do for the rest of your life, because it's just so lovely and to enjoy the energy of it, to know that you are being healed with every word that you write and that your work then goes on to help and heal so many others. They want you to be joyful. They want you to create. They want you to share your story, and they want you to find solace in that.

That makes so much sense. That's so beautiful. So beautiful. I'm so grateful for that insight from you and all of your earthly wisdom, as well as universal wisdom that you've brought to the call to the podcast today. You were kind of getting ready, but I was picking these cards for us and for our call. So these are my friend Sarah's oracle cards. She calls them the kindle deck. And we had awaken, flow and magic.

Can't remember what order they came out in, but these are the cards and all of Leonie's I really recognize this is Leonie's colors. I know you wear different colors as well. You've kind of got turquoises and stuff going on, but I was yeah. So it's been totally magical and beautiful to speak to. I'm so, so grateful for you being here. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Leonie. And go to our website.

I started at freebies. That was my journey, and then I'm three years in and I think four courses deep now, so I'm trying to know I think Leonie calls it an Eleanor the enthusiast. I'm ticking through all the things that I've got to do, and I'm currently in marketing without social media, so I'm in the PDFs of that, and I'm having such a nice time. It is a wonderful resource. It gets you to really think outside of being hooked into any screen time. It's just like, okay, think about screens just not being a one right now. Like, what else is out there? And it's expansive. I was like, well, what could there be to say? There's a lot to say.

So, yeah, a big advocate of that. And I've already just started, so thanks for that.

Oh, I love you, Claire. I'm so glad that we connected, and thank you for supporting these beautiful writers and creatives on substack. And I love the community and the creative culture that you're creating there. Thank you.