Welcome to the National Council For Hypnotherapy Podcast, where we dive into the fascinating world of hypnosis, lifting the lid on hypnotherapy, sharing insights and tips for change as we chat. So sit back, relax, and enjoy all the wonderful possibilities of hypnotherapy. My name is Tracey Grist, and I will be your host today. Hello and welcome. I'm here with Ada Meesen, lecturer, author, researcher, and organizer of the UKHC, the United Kingdom Hypnosis. Convention. For all us hypnotists to attend, to learn more about the academia behind hypnosis, the entertainment of hypnosis, all sorts of variants that we can bring to the therapy room to give us a rounded way of being as a hypnotherapist. So, Adam, welcome.

Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here.

Great. So, should we just get stuck in?

Roll our sleeves up.

What what made you choose the hypnosis Hypnotherapy route? You know, you've done amazing things in your time as a practitioner, as a trainer, as a lecturer, all of these things. Why are you hypnotherapy? Hypnosis?

You know, I I was, I I I suppose a bit of a troubled teenager, and I had, I had a I had a whole bunch of sort of physical and mental health issues as a late teenager. And I made some very poor decisions with regards to how I was gonna help myself be be happier in life in general. And I ended up see seeing a number of different types of therapists, but it just so happened that that hypnosis and hypnotherapy were the things that that did it for me. And I remember thinking, wow. You know, this is this is really cool stuff. I would quite like to learn how to do this. And the the the kind of things that have failed to sort of grab my attention academically and intellectually at that stage in my life had, had, had, yeah, just meant that I found it very easy to sort of feel driven in a particular a particular direction. I realized that

that lots of people come in get become involved in the field because they've had some sort of personal some sort of personal

journey with it. And it helped me along greatly. And, yeah, I I I very much fell in love with it and and did it ever since. And and, you know, I I think our professional membership is dating from from 1996 when I, yeah, when when when I first I first started studying hypnotherapy in my final year at university.

Yeah. So what were you studying in university then to study hypnotherapy in your final

year? Well, no. I I I did that in addition to

I see.

Yeah. Yeah. So the the the 2 were completely unrelated. Yeah. I mean, later on in life, working and living in in well, running my business in Bournemouth, it just so happened that one of the psychology senior psychology lecturers and research department people at Bournemouth University was really into hypnosis. So it just made it very easy for me to be able to do my PhD at Bournemouth University, which is which is where I run and run my business and and live my life now. Yeah. So, but but but, you know, my my undergraduate days back in those days was was was nothing to do with it.

Yeah. I I studied that completely separately. So when I finished university, you know, I sort of sort of worked in regular jobs for about a year or so. But, ultimately, you know, it's pretty much all I've ever done with my adult life has been hypnosis and hypnotherapy.

Love it. Love it. So so you no doubt you've seen a lot. If if you had because I also know that you do physical training, like weight training and workout.

Yes. I do. Yes. I do. I make no secret about it either. Maybe maybe it's a midlife crisis or something like that. But, yeah, so I I used to be an endurance athlete. And so for for years years, I would run and run and run.

And, to to to the to the point whereby, you know, one of my books was was, you know, about how to use hypnosis for advancing, you know, and and psychological other psychological strategies, you know, in particular, cognitive sports psychology, and how that combined with self hypnosis for for for running. Mhmm. When I when I when I got married and had children, I realized that, you know, running running, you know, 100 mile endurance events across Colorado mountains was probably not sustain sustainable. Time. And the amount of hours that I was doing things like that, you know, it just wasn't wasn't sustainable. So I completely changed tack and and started lifting weights.

Yeah.

And a lot of the research that I'd been thoroughly interested in with using self hit nurses in an active alert fashion whilst running and whilst training and so on, it was it's very different because with with with weight training and with some of the some of the the sort of strength and conditioning types of events that I compete in today, you need to to be able to alter your perception of effort, to be able to regulate regulate yourself in a number of different ways and and and mobilize strength and and and explosive energy and things like that. So the reason that I share my weight training and and and my gain my gym gains on Instagram and so on is is simply because I like to illustrate how much and and how important and instrumental mindset is when when seeking to do things like mobilizing your effort and alter you know, altering your perception of effort and so on. So, you know, I I I kind of hit my my late thirties, early forties and and and and made a real big difference. And, you know, you know, building muscle and, you know, altering your body from one where you know, I was a runner with twiglets for limbs. And suddenly, you know, suddenly, you're I was seeking to to to to affect that and change that and so on throughout throughout my forties up until, you know, I'm I'm I'm now hitting my fifties. And so it was it it it it's been it's been really interesting as far as that's concerned. And, yeah, you know, I lecture on that as well and and we talk about those kind of applications. And and lots of my research, my my my more recent research within self hypnosis has been as well as looking at, you know, cognitive functioning and how self hypnosis can impact that.

We're also looking at, you know, its ability to to literally increase one's strength.

So so apart from the fact that I've got a mental image of your limbs covered in Marmite, which I'm gonna

Yeah. So

so what so what is self hypnosis? Like, because hypnosis for some people is quite scary. So self hypnosis might even be scarier. So how would you describe what self hypnosis is and how we can use it? For us? How can I use it to stop going to the fridge?

So so I had, we had a we had a narrative review published at the end of last year in a peer reviewed academic journal. And and one of the things that that that that we that that we make that we make a really important point of that is that when you talk about and when you understand the very, very important role of self within within all hypnosis in general, it can help allay some of that nervousness and some of that apprehension that a lot of people have that gets promoted through through, you know, media misrepresentation and, unfortunately, through a lot of, you know, frontline hypnotherapists in my experience. So, ultimately, what what we start out by saying always is that, self hypnosis is something that is self directed, so wholly self directed, self regulated, that is the entire thing is regulated by oneself. The suggestions are self generated too. So if we look at that initial criteria, really simple open criteria, obviously, listening to audios doesn't fit that criteria because with with audios are ultimately hetero hypnosis, one to one hypnosis, just with a hypnotist not present. So you're still following following other people's guidance.

Like on YouTube or, like, when you buy those recordings on Yeah.

Yeah. You know, you you you're not you're not self regulating and you're not self directing it. Ultimately, your entire hypnotic experience is being created and generated by another party. So we've argued in both the meta analysis that we published a few years ago and the the more recent narrative review that was recently published, I'm saying that, you know, self hypnosis audios really are more akin to heterohypnosis than than actually self hypnosis by its official, official definition. And so for us, we we refer to it more as being a cognitive skill rather than an altered state of consciousness or something like that. And because self hypnosis itself, you know, doesn't doesn't sit well with a lot of with with a number of very classic theories of hypnosis. So there's a very prominent theory of of of heterohypnosis, for example, that that that's still taught, and and and a lot of a lot of clinicians still explain it to their patients in these terms, whereby, you know, what hypnosis is doing is is inhibiting the the the the the prefrontal lobes of the brain and handing over executive control to the the hypnotist Or or, you know, it's put in put in slightly even even more rudimentary terms with the notion of the the conscious subconscious mind where we're stepping over the conscious mind to access the subconscious mind. Now if that were if that were the case, then then then then how is self hypnosis even possible? You know, if you are dissociating and and, inhibiting your prefrontal lobes and your prefrontal cortex, then then how can you possibly be in control of and manage and orchestrate a self hypnosis experience? So phenomenologically, the the heterohypnosis and self hypnosis differentiate because self Hypnosis, you you have to put more effort within, and and and it feels less involuntary.

So the effectiveness that they're easily as effective as each other. So when the 2 have been compared in research, that they are as effective as each other in a wide number of applications. On rare occasions, heterohypnosis is perhaps more suitable to self. And and and other occasions, self hypnosis is more suitable and and preferred and therefore more efficacious than heterohypnosis.

But does that depend on extroversion, introversion, personality types?

So sometimes sometimes personality can help dictate someone's starting point. But if we think of self hypnosis as a cognitive skill, so, you know, the adoption of seemingly ordinary psychological factors that when they combine within a good self hypnosis protocol raise suggestibility hugely within individuals. So sometimes when people first start out, their personality and trait based attributes can can contribute to to to their ability. But as with many skills and and with the vast majority of skills in life, as you practice them, you you you can become greater at them. You can become better at them. Some people might might find it a lot easier to reach higher levels above of aptitude with it. You know, some people might feel, you know, more more, you know, more talented with it, so to speak. But, yeah, that's in that it it probably ends, you know, the the the relationship with with personality probably ends fairly fairly soon when people start practicing.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So so what would you do? So if I'm a layman, how would I learn self hypnosis? What would you recommend?

Well, the the protocol that that we use at Bournemouth University, for example, in in the psychology labs at Bournemouth University is something that we, you know, we've made readily available. You you can go and download a PDF of that self hypnosis road map from my college website for free. If you would just Google Adam Eason self hypnosis road map, you know, it it'll come up. Or or I can give a link for people just to to to go and to go and grab that when wherever this this publication is. Mhmm. So, yeah. You know, the the the but but ultimately, you know, if you if you think of it in terms of adopting a you know, having having a certain degree of really healthy expectation, expecting outcomes to happen, expecting the things that you suggest to yourself to happen automatically as well. As John Kilstrom once said, you're turning a a doing into a happening.

You know? So you imagine that the things are happening and then you imagine that they are that you aren't imagining them, so to speak. You know? You imagine that they're happening by themselves. We engage our imagination that we adopt the role of hypnotized subject, which as you know means that you have to turn your eyes into those kind of swirly spiral things. And then yeah. Exactly. And then once you've got swirly eyeballs, it's all downhill from there.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you express yourself that emoji with the swirly eyeballs?

Yeah. Yeah. But I think, you know, you you know, you you corral your attention and you, you know, you fix your attention in in similar ways that that that heterohypnosis has done. You know, some of the earliest accounts of of self hypnosis that that that we can find are from James Braid who who essentially oversaw some of his own illness and and engaged in self hypnosis in exactly the same way that he would do heterohypnosis except, you know, treated himself as operator and receiver at the same time. And, you know, in essence, that kind that is kind of what we're doing. One of the one of the things that our research showed very interestingly is, you know, a a lot of people learn self hypnosis in the clinical environment. So they're taught self hypnosis by a clinician, by a hypnotherapist. And and one of the things that research shows, quite compelling evidence shows, that if you have hypnosis, heterohypnosis Hypnosis and then practice self hypnosis, Your self hypnosis skills are likely to be impaired compared to if you learned self hypnosis first and then did hetero hypnosis, under which case, both hetero and self, you will be better at.

And the main reason for this is that a lot of people, when they experience hypnosis and they don't have to do anything and they have these kind of wonderful wonderful experiences, ultimately, they try and recreate that, and they try and dip into the memory instead of creating a wholly self regulated, self directed experience and adapting and developing a cognitive skill. Instead, what tends to happen is they're trying to borrow a memory of their hetero hypnosis experience that they had with the clinician. That's gonna be very, very hard to recreate.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, you know, the the evidence tends to suggest that if you learn that first so, you know, a a really useful tip that I give lots of my my trainee and undergraduate hypnotherapists is to to to teach their their clients, their patients self hypnosis as part of them becoming a client, as part of them becoming a patient. So, you know, I I give them a document. I ask them to practice certain self hypnosis skills prior to coming and seeing me. And what that means is that they already built some skill that can be applied and will have an additive effect to to the to this hetero hypnosis that I'm then doing with them in the clinical environment.

They're a bit like a muscular warm up almost

Absolutely. Absolutely like that. But but even if they find it difficult and even if they're not sure how to gauge it, the fact that they practice that skill set, that psychological skill set has a great deal of utility when they then start having hetero hypnosis within the the clinical environment.

Yeah. Because you're thinking in a different way, isn't it? I think when I when I see clients, I think it's really important that clients do personality tests to get an idea of who they are and how they can step forward. And I think anything that empowers the client without having to pay the therapist, great. Great.

Yeah. Right.

But we're all about the empowerment, you know, and a bit about the business. So so so in terms of the self hypnosis changing the cognitive thinking ability, or changing, How about with neurodiversity? Is that the same? Is there any variations? Is this a neurotypical thing? Am I asking a one good question?

Yeah. I mean, with with with neurodiversity and and hypnosis, you know, as far as self hypnosis is concerned, the the the the same the same sort of considerations that you apply in life in general just get applied here. You know? So if, for example, you're struggling to concentrate, if, for example, you're struggling to have a self-concept, if, for example you know, whatever it may be, we'll just need to be to to to be sort of tweaked within within the approach. But the great the great thing about self hypnosis as opposed to to hetero hypnosis in that regard is that it it it's in their hands. You know? And self hypnosis is pretty malleable, really, and most people can understand that the hypnotic mindset, the cognitive set, if you like, that's required to put together, in order to to to be more receptive. And and most people can can understand, you know, the the the corralling of attention and focus in order to to instigate and and and induce the the the the beginning of of the process. And if they can't, then it's probably you know, hypnosis is is unlikely to be the thing for them.

Yeah. Yeah.

As as with anything, you know, that that's not exclusive to neurodiversity. You know, if somebody is struggling to comprehend the process or it's beyond them for whatever reason, then, you know, an alternative approach is likely to be better.

Yeah. And I think, certainly, in we're talking with clients. It it isn't a one size fits all to me, hypnotherapy. You want it or are open to it, but some people don't like it, don't want it, aren't open to it. And it's, yeah, working where where what can I can I find something else that suits me?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, absolutely. You know, it it it's not a panacea. And, you you know, the the the the evidence alone will will will show us that. You know, there are certain certain applications of hypnosis that are very, very well indicated for the clinical environment and certain applications that are perhaps less so. And, you know, we we probably ought to be considering those things, but also the the kind of people we are and the kind of the kind of person that that we're working with. I think that's that's one of the the reasons why I sometimes feel that that it it's a challenge if a hypnotherapist is offering a singular model, a singular perspective, and is immovable as far as that's concerned.

I think, it's really important to be taught not just a singular model that was created by one person, instead to be teaching a range of approaches and to have been subjected to critique on both on on all of those. You know, nothing is without flaws. My own favored theoretical position for for cell hypnosis and heterohypnosis are not flawless. You know? They're they're NCH without their critique. And so I think it's really important for for the the hypnotherapy field in general to to know and understand both sides of the debate, a technique, a philosophy, an argument, and be able to argue both sides and know what the critique is about the position that they are adopting. You know, so understanding our own cognitive biases, understanding, you know, heuristics and thinking patterns. And, you know, so when we're in supervision, when we're engaging in reflective practice, recognizing, well, how am I making these therapeutic decisions? And and I think, as far as the field of hypnotherapy is concerned, it makes a lot of sense, therefore, not just to have one one singular approach and one singular, you know, style necessarily and instead to to to to be able to have enough flexibility to offer what what's going to help that individual clinically and optimally?

Yeah. That's I think that's where it's important as hypnotherapists, you know, partly why we're advocates of the MCH and good practice for that ongoing CPD supervision, you know, all of those pre requirements that we we have and expectations we have with hypnotherapists that they are looking to expand their knowledge and their remit. Certainly, the face of hypnotherapy has changed with research and looking into what hypnosis is, and it isn't a one hit wonder or a cure. And NCH. Precisely.

Precisely. And and do you know I mean, one of the things funny enough, I was I was speaking on a on another podcast quite recently just saying that one of my bugbears within the field, and I'm sorry to to start griping, is that, you know, a lot of people think of hypnosis and hypnotherapy as, you know, all they will need is a single session. Yeah. And and there was this this proliferation of hypnosis techniques for single session, smoking cessation, for example, in the nineties and the early noughties, yet yet yet really compelling, rather strong evidence, tends to suggest that more sessions are better. More sessions and and and that, you know, a multi component multi componential approach to to hypnotherapy for smoking cessation is far better, you know, so to to rather than than single stop smoking sessions. And I think, you know, hypnotherapists that are aware of and informed by the evidence in the research typically, you know, tend to frown at this notion of, yeehaw, whoopie doo, you know, single session, do everything as fast as we can. I think it's it's it's unrealistic. The the areas where we have some of the best, most compelling, heavily scrutinized research are things like irritable bowel syndrome where and and pain, where where where a series of sessions a series of sessions have been have been proven to to to to impact the condition for over a period of time are far better in long term follow ups than than one off one off hits.

And it's certainly, you know, from my position as a woman, and I know that throughout the 4 weeks of the month, my hormones change. And maybe one of those one of those weeks, I might be batshit crazy. But, So but I know because of my hormones change, if I was in therapy once a week over those 4 weeks, I will present as a different person. Over that period, if you have a one hit wonder when your estrogen's fabulous and your progesterone's fabulous, that one hit wonders great for that moment. But when those hormones dip and change, does the hypnosis bend and flex to hold that? Does it help me in my PMT days when the world comes to an end. And so I I do think if we've got a one session wonder, we're not meeting all the parts. And, perhaps men change throughout the month as well. But, certainly, from my position as a woman in that viewpoint, I I wonder I'm a little bit

You know, quite right. I mean, the the the the human condition and the very nature of life is such.

Yeah.

You know, it's it's a roller coaster ride And, you know, a a a a good quality robust treatment plan ought to be, you know, covering covering, you know, a a lot of those facets. And, you know, one of the things that I love about people self monitoring, whether it's, you know, their eating habits or whether it's the levels of pain that they're experiencing or measuring, the quality of life that they have or whatever it is, that, you know, if they've had a bad morning, for example, or if they've had an argument or or or they had an incident at work, which is gonna flavor their mindset when they arrive for the session, or or they've got some some hormonal things going on, and and that has affected how they are in that session. At least when we've self monitored, we can look back over the course of the week and say, well, actually, you know, aside from how you are feeling right now, which is coloring the account that you're giving me, you know, we've got some really strong evidence over the course of the last week that you've been making some great progress and that there there's many reasons to be to to feel positive and optimistic at the moment. And and and I think you you just can't do that if you're doing one off singular sessions. Yeah.

NCH. I totally agree. Totally agree. So in terms of where you want to go as a practitioner, as somebody doing all of these things going from twiglet to beefcake. But you can't sit down and close your legs.

Yeah.

So so how do you what do you want in the future? How do you want see yourself moving into the future with hypnosis?

Well, one of the one of the things that that I'm seeking to do with with with the research and one of the things that I'm a fellow researcher and, myself, doctor Ben Paris at Bournemouth University, myself, one of the things we're seeking to do with with self hypnosis is to to to attempt to give it a PR job the the the likes of which something like mindfulness has, you know, where where where it it it's very well accepted. And the good thing about self hypnosis is that it ought to be able to to disconnect and segregate itself from notions of being animated and controlled by a second party. That's one of the things. So I'm keen to do that. One of the other things I'm seeking you know, I'm keen to do and, to to keep exploring is is continuing to have a look at hypnosis as an adjunct in an adjunctive capacity, what it continues to do. So some of some of my favorite applications at the moment also include acceptance and commitment Hypnotherapy, so active approaches. You know, I love lots of the the the pace and the ethos and the the sort of underpinning culture of of the act approach. And I think it makes they make beautiful bedfellows with with with hypnosis.

In fact, I'm I I I I I I have con ongoing contact with with Michael Yapko, for example. Michael Yapko is is going to be at the the convention in 2025. Mhmm. And, and and, you know, he he he talks about something similar, and and he wrote a book about the integration of mindfulness and mindfulness and hypnosis, for example, you know, in an adjunctive capacity. So I think sometimes the limitations of hypnosis are that, you know, it's in a lot of research, ultimately, what's being researched is hypnosis plus suggestion. Hypnosis plus suggestion is what's being researched when, actually, if you look at full blown treatment plans of of hypnosis in conjunction with other other and and other other modalities of therapy as well, its scope is is huge. Its scope is is is massive. And it has the chance I mean, there is there is research already that that shows hypnosis advances the efficacy of CBT, for example.

And and, you know, it has the capacity to be able to do that for for a wide range of other things. And so for me, those are those are some avenues that I'm currently exploring. It it's worth bearing in mind that, you know, I've been exploring a wide range of different avenues for for, you know, 29 years or so within this field. So but but kind of where I'm at currently.

Brilliant. It's it's it's fascinating listening to you. If you could give a top tip to anyone listening about maybe looking for a hypnotherapist or wanting to change the way their mindset works? What would you say?

Okay. So, I'd be inclined to get in contact with with with a hypnotherapist beforehand. And for me, I I I would want if if I was sending a loved one to to a hypnotherapist, I'd want them to be evidence based and research informed, but, also, I would want my loved one to feel comfortable with that person. And, you know, so so being aware of being aware of that manner, the kind of person that they are, and so on is is is gonna be important. So I think, you know, you will have you will have certain criteria for the kind of person that you like to work with. You know, maybe you prefer, you know, a a male therapist or a female therapist and so on. You know, let your criteria be addressed. And second of all, I I think having someone that is researched research informed and not just sort of rehashing and revamping, you know, kind of myths and misconceptions within their work, I think, would would be really important.

So someone someone who's quite clearly professional, ethical, someone who adheres to a code of ethics and professionalism reported by the the the NCH, for example, you know, I I think is really important. I think as far as as far as organized such organizations are concerned in the UK, you know, the the NCH leads by a but but by a real real distance as far as that's concerned. So, you know, looking at looking at the NCH suggested therapists.

Yeah. Thank you very much. Well, it's been wonderful talking to you, and I'm very excited to see what's coming in the future. I'm looking forward to the hypnosis convention. If there are any hypnotists listening or hypnotherapists listening that would like to come along, that's in November, isn't it? And we'll add we'll add your links to that as well. So

And, you know, if I've sort of piqued anybody's, interest in any of these kind of topics, I know I know sometimes people start thinking, oh, hang on. I could use self hypnosis in the gym, or or I could use this there, or I could do this. Then then, you know, I'm I'm very I'm very accessible. You know, I'm yet to move into my ivory tower. So, you know, you you could you can message me, and I'll very happily respond and answer to any questions that you may have.

Brilliant. Thank you ever so much, Adam. It was

a pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks very much. Bye bye. Thank you.