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Inclusion That Actually Sticks
The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Inclusion That Actually Sticks
SD
Speaker
Susan Drumm
JL
Speaker
Joanne Lockwood
Joanne Lockwood hosts Susan Drumm on Inclusion Bites, exploring how to embed inclusive habits in leadership to boost trust and decision-making. They discuss overcoming blind spots, using the Enneagram for team dynamics, and fostering curiosity over resistance to achieve lasting inclusion and better collaboration in organizations.
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Highlights
“Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within.”
“The Power of Inclusion Quote: "spotting the invisible patterns that quietly run teams and translating complex neuroscience into simple, repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspective and make space for every voice.”
“And so if I'm arguing it's blue, it's blue, it's blue, and you're arguing, no, it's green, it's green. The model starts to show why that's the case and how actually they're your best friend in terms of growth because they're looking into the area where you may not see what's possible.”
“Understanding Team Dynamics "We make up reasons for why people do the things they do, but that's based on our own drive of motivation.”
“The Power of Diverse Leadership Styles "There's nine different types of leadership styles and each have. They're based on what you're motivated to look at. Right. And each have a superpower and each have a liability that comes with them.”
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Full transcript
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too.
Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
And today is episode 209 with the title Inclusion that actually Sticks. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Susan Drumm. Susan is a leadership advisor and coach who helps organisations turn diversity into everyday performance by embedding inclusive habits that build trust, voice equity and that lead to better decisions. When I asked Susan to describe her superpower, she said that it is spotting the invisible patterns that quietly run teams and translating complex neuroscience into simple, repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspective and make space for every voice. Hello, Susan, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Absolute pleasure. We were just chatting away there in the green room before we pushed the record button and I think you said you're in Arizona, is that right?
That's right, yes. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona and it's at the time that we're taping in the. We like to say we have eight months of heaven for four months of hell when it comes to our art.
Yeah, so you are. It's got cold snaps as well.
Like right now. It is truly heaven. It's, you know, I'm trying to think celsius, but about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. And so just beautiful, beautiful spectacular weather at the end of January where the rest of the country seems to be in a freeze over, but then we pay a price in the summer where it gets blasted hot. And although I. The idea is if you have the flexibility like I do to leave during those months, then you're best to depart during those four months of intense heat.
Dusk.
Yes, yes. And we can have storms that run through around that time as well, you know, very heavy rains and then it would be dry. So. Yeah, called the monsoons. Yeah, I really Enjoy it here because I think I'm. I lived in the northeast most of my life, the first portion. And it was. I just don't do well with living in winter.
Very. And I did also, by the way, live in London for two years. Love that. But I'm addicted to the sun. It just makes me happy. I want to be in a place where the sun is shining every day. And sometimes people say, well, don't you miss the change of seasons? And I was like, no. If I want to go be in snow, I'll go book a holiday for five days, you know, in a ski resort and get some of that and then leave.
Pop up to Aspen. There's plenty of places with mountains and things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice. If you can live in two places, it's ideal because you'll get such incredible weather whenever, when everywhere else doesn't seem that way and then go off when it's, you know, more inhospitable. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I think as human beings, we think we're chameleons and can see 360 degrees, but we can't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where we point our focus of attention, that's what we see. And we get very good.
We usually develop patterns about what we want to look at and that becomes a bit of a superpower because we get so good at looking that direction and studying that and understanding that. But there's something behind our head we can't see, and that's our blind spot. In some of the models I use, they very clearly show where your superpower lies, but where you kind of maybe have a liability you're not as familiar with. And I, I like to use models that are more inclusive in general that show that there's someone else looking in that direction by their very nature because of what they pay attention to. And so if I'm arguing it's blue, it's blue, it's blue, and you're arguing, no, it's green, it's green. The model starts to show why that's the case and how actually they're your best friend in terms of growth because they're looking into the area where you may not see what's possible. And so I think when you talked about the superpower is for me to really help people see their patterns and self imposed limits that are inherent in who we are and start to widen that gap to shift their perspective so that new opportunities for growth, for success become available to them. Yeah.
And.
For sure it definitely Starts to take this, you know, for some, more rigid than others. Right. It's like slowly chipping away at what people believe is possible. Exactly. And you can, even more powerfully, if you can, build the team that's accounting for your blind spots and recognise that the person that triggers you is probably the person that you have the most growth to learn from. There's something there. And so that's why I help people see the map of that and they can start to see how this person actually can be beneficial to what they're trying to accomplish in the world. Yes.
That alternate. If you're not careful, you grip.
Yes.
Because you're worried about all these things.
Yes. Yes. And it's almost. My sense is there's. I mean, there's even more gripping to the belief, but anything you resist, you give it power and you give it more power. So I don't think our answer is sort of more resistance. I don't see how that's been working out for us. It's sort of the.
I feel like the answer is curiosity and like, let me. Let me understand that perspective and let me look from that. And what aspect of this could I incorporate or what gift could I give because of my superpower, looking in the other way? And it starts to. I think the only way you get there is for people to start to recognise where that blind spot is, that they have it and where it is, and recognise that the gift that you bring to someone else is looking in their blind spot, but they also look into yours. Yeah, I think, because, you know, anytime I hear, like, that's the way it is, like, I want to be like, is it. Is it the way it is? Um, and I. And I would say we can, if we approach it with curiosity, on different perspectives they get.
One challenges them to. Without.
Right, right. And a lot of it is we're not really trained with language. Even that's inclusive. Like, you know, you can say, that's really interesting. Here's how I've looked at it before. What do you think of that perspective? Right. That's very. Inv.
Language versus. Yeah, but what about X, Y, Z? Right. And that's what it's like. The energy of that exchange. Then we'll have. Like I said, you bring resistance. The other person gets more resistant in their point of view and then that's when you start to have the breakdown.
Yeah. You entrench in your. In your opposites, don't you?
Right. Yes. Gosh, it's. It's. This is the work of our times. Right. Now, you know, and so there's different ways to go about it. I mean, sometimes picking the most divisive conversations are probably not the place to start.
Like, I think we need to build skillset in having easier conversations first and opening our aperture, then work up to the more difficult ones. And so when I think about teams, when teams are working together, starting to learn, like what. Why that person is always throwing, let's say, a wet blanket or cold water over your idea, what are they actually motivated by? What are they actually looking to do? Because you're interpreting their behaviour through your own motivations and your own type filter, we would say, and getting curious about what they're. You know, we make up reasons for why people do the things they do, but that's based on our own drive of motivation. Right. The transition between how people can become more curious and engage in these types of conversations.
Because we get stuck. Get stuck in our. In groups.
Yeah. There was a wonderful video. I think it was actually designed to be a commercial and I think it was Heineken, believe it or not. And the idea was that you could bring people with very polar views together over a beer to actually get to know each other as humans. And it's a very powerful storey. You can find it on YouTube at.
Worlds Apart.
Do you know?
Have you seen this? World's Apart? Yeah, Yeah. I use up my training courses sometimes. Yeah. Worlds Apart.
Yeah.
Very powerful.
Yes. So that's. This is exactly what we're talking about. Right. And so kind of coming without the preconceived notions. And what we actually find is we have more in common than we realise.
Right.
And I think that that storey highlights it really well. Yeah.
And the solution is. Right, right. Tolerant. Whereas if you're just more likely to be. Yeah, yes, it's.
And also, if we approach. If we approach the conversation with. I want to get you to understand my point of view, then there's an inherent resistance. Nobody wants to be sort of told what to do. Right.
Actually, I want. No, but if I just said. Okay, that's. I think that's. I think a lot of the things that black.
Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that. And so in order to help people understand their patterns, there are a couple different ways we go about that. Two modalities in particular that I've found to be really powerful. One is working with the Enneagram. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Have you ever talked about it on the show?
No. Go for it.
Okay, great. Danny Graham is a powerful model of the way we use it in our work is that you have. There's nine different types of leadership styles and each have. They're based on what you're motivated to look at. Right. And each have a superpower and each have a liability that comes with them. And the model is very powerful because it's a systems model, so, meaning it's showing the interrelationship between the nine different styles and how building high performance teams can happen when you have the right combination or diversity of these cognitive viewpoints, how people think. And so that's a really powerful tool because first of all, people understand their own process of, gosh, yeah, I have developed this superpower to do something this way and this is what I'm motivated to look at.
But now I can also see what I don't see behind my head. And you gotta create that opening first, such that then you bring the team together to say, and look at that person, Charlie, who happens to look in that. And I see now why I can't see what they see, but how it could actually benefit me. And that's part of the process and the magic of that understanding and then realising, like, we've got some leadership style types that are not present on the team and we don't even have that representation of the way that person would think or the types of questions they would ask in doing that work. So I think with that type of backdrop, this is where we get teams to be higher functioning. So that it's not to say, okay, you absolutely have to hire for every single, but recognise where the gaps are, that what's present in the team and have someone do their best to sort of play that part. Right. What are the types of questions? Let's say you're missing the loyal sceptic, which is type 6 on your team.
Then you don't have that counterbalance. Everything is like full steam ahead, full steam ahead. You don't have that counterbalance to say, here's the potential drawback, how are we going to mitigate for that? So you will need to, with your team, make sure, before you make a head decision, like we're going to take 15 minutes and look at what if this goes wrong, because we don't naturally have that person on the team that does that. But we know we need to take some time to look at that, as hard as it is maybe for the types that are on the team to do so, we've got to do that so that we make better decisions. And what I find is then that the best teams are cognitively diverse teams because they're representing these different perspectives and they're making better decisions as a result. So that's. The Enneagram is one big thing. That's one way to do it.
And then some actually do look for, you know, when we make our next hire, let's look for somebody who seems to have that skill set.
If you haven't got.
Yes, that's exactly right. So particularly for teams, that's why I've found the tool to be really powerful. And what's great about the Enneagram is no one owns it. It's an open source model that's been developed, you know, some would say definitely over decades, some would say even centuries. You know, they're actually finding deep connection with neuroscience related to this. So I, I recently was involved in a course called the Neuroscience of Change and they did an entire segment just on the Enneagram and starting to understand how the brain formulates and gets kind of grooved into one of these nine types. And a lot of it, of course has to do with upbringing and what we. Things happen to us.
Right.
As we socialisation. Yeah, yeah.
What we make it mean typically falls into nine different styles. And so that, that was very exciting to me because there's real neuroscience behind looking at the world in this way and, and so, but it also allows people to recognise in themselves that they don't have all the answers. And that's the way you start to get curious about like, well, you know, I don't have all the answers. Let me, let me ask some questions about people who see the world differently. So I, I find it's a powerful model for people to, to start to open up their curiosity. Yes. You know, there's, there's another assessment we use that is looking at your internal experience under conflict or stress and in relationship with another person. And two of the dimensions that it's measuring.
One is empathy accuracy. Do I. Am I able to understand what your perspective is? But another dimension is empathy, compassion and do I care? Right. Am I able to understand your perspective and am I actually willing to care about that perspective? And so, wow, what a model for people to start to see. I would say like the psychopath is the one that is very. Understands what you want but does not care. And so these two skill sets, I believe, are going to be absolutely 100% critical the more AI becomes handling anything on the logic side of the equation. The skills that are uniquely human, which are empathy accuracy and empathy compassion, are going to be needed more than ever.
To whatever it comes out with or challenge it with soul.
Yes. Or, you know, it's kind of interesting. I find that it's also baking in trying to be empathetic, but it's inauthentic. So I don't know if you've played around, but it seems to be very agreeable to whatever I say. Right. Which is why we've developed our own AI capacity that focuses specifically on leadership development under models that have been. We've been used for over 20 years. Right.
In the field. We know what works and we're also not going to agree with you on every little thing that you say. And I worry about that from a perspective of AI. If it's always sort of like. That's a really good point. Like all the time. That it's further reinforcing our unwillingness to listen to others because it keeps reinforcing that whatever we believe is right. I remember that's the addictive quality of it.
Right. It's sort of like people want to be told like, you're absolutely right. You know, if I might put, like, is my boss, you know, a jerk for doing X, Y, Z. And yes, he is like, you know, like it's almost hardwired to agree with you because that will keep you coming back. But we've got to recognise, like there's a slippery slope with that. Yeah. So. But not a lot of people do that.
They're like, show me where my thinking is flawed here. Let me. I mean that's not a. People want to be right and they want to be proven right and they will use AI to prove themselves. Right. And AI will comply.
Analysis always kind of, to me.
Right, Right. For sure. Look, there's some really. I. The what. The reason we're embracing it as well is because. So people can engage with the content more 24 7. So I think there's powerful opportunities here to leverage AI in the right way.
I think it's also just to be careful of your own bias towards wanting the answer that you want and it giving you that. Yeah, it's. I think today authenticity is going to be the currency for a new tomorrow. Really? How do you tell what's real anymore? I mean, it's so easy now also to create your own footage of things. Grok can make that happen. I just saw some really wild things where it can make a still image come alive and make it do whatever you want it to do and it looks incredibly real. So I think, you know, people's own intuition is going to be where you have to start to rely on versus what you see. Or what you're told, right?
Yes.
Is the reality. Yes. Yes, it is definitely. Like, we've got to kind of come back to ourselves in a way and start building that intuition questioning, as you're saying before, like, am I. Am I being manipulated and stirred up for someone's purpose or not?
Your team.
Yeah. What I've seen, the leaders that have been able to do that are as referring back, deeply connected to their own, let's say, you know, inner wisdom, inner confidence, inner strength, inner. They know themselves well. And I think there's a lot out there to help distract you from knowing yourself well. But you only know yourself well if you actually take some time to go within and make that pause to do so and helping people get back to themselves. And you are your best guide, and you can be curious about what's going on externally. But I think if we keep relying on the external to tell us how we feel, we're just setting ourselves up for a world of hurt to come.
As a leader, you have to work out what other people see you as.
Yeah, yeah. The other way that we help people see the patterns for themselves and how they might shift them is using music, actually. So I wrote a book called the Leaders Playlist, and it's how to use the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership in your life. And I'm using music both figuratively and literally. So tying that back into what we just talked about, starting to discover what is that playlist that's no longer serving you? And because essentially what it is, it's a vibration. It's like a belief that you're putting out there that the world returns back to you. And so music is incredibly powerful because it allows you to build new neural pathways more quickly and so allows you to create that new perspective both about yourself and about others by harnessing that power. So we.
We, for individuals, like, starting to learn what is that pattern that holds me back, and pairing that with some music to interrupt that pattern and then creating a new playlist of what the new belief needs to be and using music to help rewire that and groove it into the brain such that you have more access to it. That's some of the shifting that we do as well. So it's just a whole nother perspective on how shifts in mindset are possible.
So. Right. Right. There's clearly metaphors in that.
We. There are. And we can be much more intentional about the music we select by noticing its impact on us. How is it making you feel? What do you notice about that? You know, it was one example. When we go through a breakup, we often like to hear other sad songs because we're mirroring what we're feeling inside. Right. But then if we stay stuck there, that's where it becomes. So I had.
There was a girlfriend who went through some tragedy in her life and, you know, like six years later, her whole playlist was like sad songs. And I pointed it out to her and she's like, you know, you're right. I said, they're. They're sort of keeping you stuck in the past. Right. You're stuck in this pattern and you're chipping over your past. When you need to be moving forward into your future. What do you want your future to be? And if you have that, let's create, like, what's that new playlist going to be? And she did and really transformed her life by this simple measure.
And it's time to break.
Yes, absolutely. And so if I translate that to an example of how. How do we use this in leadership?
Right.
Though I'll tell a storey. There was a woman I worked with who, very talented, chief marketing officer in a biotech company. And however she was having conflict with her peers in the kind of C suite, the feedback that came back was that she was not being collaborative in a helpful way, wanting to kind of get. Would get upset if she wasn't invited to certain meetings or wasn't. Was left out of key communication. And of course, from her perspective, she's like, I'm the chief marketing officer, I need to know about these things in order for me to be effective. But what I was interested in, in what was the playlist she was playing that was having that show up in her experience. And so we started to look at where, you know, when I described to her, what is she feeling when this occurs and she's feeling frustration, she's feeling like she's being excluded.
And so I said, okay, well, let's look where else. Is this a familiar pattern to you? Have you felt this way before? Oh, yes. Right. We could go to the ex husband who now had the lake house that she used to bring the kids to. They used to go as a family and now the kids went with just him. And she. Every time they did that, she felt this same familiar pattern. Or we go further back when, you know, all of her experience, she could very clearly see places.
She was sort of hypersensitive now to feelings where she realised she had a playlist called I am Excluded. And so what is her work to do in that is to recognise that that's sort of like there's a patterning and what you look at expands. So she decided to have a song focused particularly to recognise when she's in this pattern. And she didn't want to have this pattern anymore. And that was Adele's hello. You know, the song is sort of like, hello, can you hear me? I've been calling a thousand times and you won't pick up the phone. Right. And so she was like, when I feel this way.
Oh, there's Adele again. So what do I want the new playlist to be? And that's where we looked at. She created a new pattern which was, again, these are I am statements. I am excluded becomes now. For her, I bring peace and appreciation. Because she really wanted to focus on what she brought to the community. So in that, she developed a whole playlist of songs that had her be in that experience. And the more she did that, the more life started showing up differently for her life and her work.
Such that now people say we need to bring her in. Like, she has coffee every other week with the person who used to be the one that was excluding her the most because her energy shifted around that, their energy shifted. And that's all you really have control over, is shifting your energy at the end of the day. So that's the little example of how music can be used to really shift old patterns and create new ones. Right.
This is my storey. Adele's never going to get you out of bed in the morning.
Yeah. And look, it's not to say that we want. The emotions are very important to recognise and to feel because they each have information in us. So I'm not saying don't feel this way. You feel what you feel, recognise what it is. It's more about when you get stuck in a pattern of feeling that way where it sort of like becomes the water you swim in. That's where there's the opportunity to break free. Well, right now I'm looking at music that sort of moves the world.
And what is music that's going to have me feel free and empowered to create change that benefits humanity and others. And so this song, I think, has been out for a while, but it's really getting. It's called Love Generation and it's. It's just a fun song. And so I'm building some other songs like that because it reminds me of my mission in the world.
I can zone out I could get you feeling good.
Yeah. I would really encourage listeners to choose a song that represents something to them about how they Want their day to go and play that in the morning a lot. I mean, it's the same looking at. I frequently see it under these nine patterns. Right. Or beliefs. It may be that I can't delegate. I'm the central part.
No one does it as good as I can. People don't have my back. These are all kind of ways in which people get stuck and not open to receiving the opportunity that could be there for them. So I would say there's. There's not one. There's patterns of different belief sets and that's. In the book. I detail some examples of these.
I go into eight or nine different storeys of the types of leaders and what their old playlist was, let's say, and where they're getting stuck and what their new playlist was. But also even their actual music that they used to shift that. Well, I think one of the shocking things is you would think at that point like there would be relief and less anxiety and all those things. So the, the, the patterns of that sort of like how what you came up against when you made your money is exactly what you're gonna still be dealing with when you have your money. If there was a lot of fear, then the fear will also be present when the fear of losing the money. Right. Or it's sort of the same. It doesn't.
You don't change. And so I have. You don't change unless you do the work to change.
Yes.
The same emotions can be present because you've developed those patterns over a lifetime. And so, I mean, you'd be surprised the same challenges they're facing are what other leaders are facing.
Yeah, I can resonate that. I work in a fairly tight small business consulting community across HR and people. People. And there's a. There's a common theme of imposter syndrome and burnout and family and conflict of work. We've all got something, haven't we? And it's very similar. Really?
Yeah. Yeah. So it's no different. And I think I can speak to that. You know, I'm not intimidated by, you know, that level of success. It's still a human being that's still got blind spots and gifts and superpowers and how can we leverage more of that? But how can we broaden the perspective so that people. Again, I'm just most interested in people being free and empowered to create the change that they want to be creating and helping them see where they put their own self imposed limits on that and shifting them is the work that I love to do. In the world.
I would have thought they would also respect you meeting them where they're at as well. And they probably get surrounded by people who are scared, scared of them, but, you know, scared to speak up, scared to share their perspective. And if you could be yourself around them and be relaxed and be a peer as opposed to a subordinate, then yeah, it must be, must be refreshing for them as well.
Yes, yes, I've heard that exact piece. You know, treat me as like I'm solid in myself. I don't. I'm not going to get, you know.
In awe of anybody. No, it's. Right, it's, it's either a maturity or a. There's a certain point in your life where you, you kind of, you kind of get that, don't you? You kind of become that self confident, self assured.
Yeah.
And you don't need to be in awe of anybody. They're just, they're just people who happen to have a bigger get up with zeros in their bank account than you do.
Yeah, yeah.
Is there a gender difference? You know, is it female executive prototype or type? Or is there. Is it very similar traits across genders?
It's a good question. I feel like there's, I think it's changing generationally, but let's say my generation, I'm in my mid-50s and the women that have risen through the ranks have. There's a real sort of like fire a little bit underneath them because they've had to kind of break through some initial bias and so there's confidence but also maybe exhausted because that took a lot of energy to get there for.
A number of sort of lean in generations. Cheryl Sandberg sort of thing where you having to reclaim your truth and reclaim your power type generation, that requires a.
Lot of energy to do that. So I recognise maybe some patterns in that for that generation of women and what they've had to claim. And maybe sometimes it comes through in, well, if I had to fight and claw my way, so should you, because that made me who I am. It gave them a confidence. Right. But then there's a different expectation whereas, you know, maybe a different generation doesn't want to have to fight and claw their way. So having that expectation that that's how you need to be in order to be successful I think is a limiting.
Belief because there's a lot of younger billionaires these days, isn't there? It's not all Warren buffets in their 70s and 80s. There's a lot of self made Silicon Valley unicorn leaders in their early 20s making printing money, being innovative, creating startups. And they're probably a lot more gung ho. A lot, lot more, a lot less risk averse. They're probably more seat of the pants.
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think whatever makes us successful in what we do, we think that's the recipe for success that everyone else has to bottle. And it's not, we're seeing, it's not actually the case.
No, but, but I guess there's a generational challenge as well. Just the, the lived experience, you know, we talked about that earlier, the perspectives, it's coming around full circle. You talked about these nine different leadership styles. I'm guessing then that that age diversity, gender diversity, ethnicity diversity is all in there and those lived experiences all help contribute and it's not necessarily true that just because you're 60, you're going to be more cautious or just because you're younger, you're going to be more gung ho. That's again a stereotype bias, isn't it?
Yeah, for sure. And that's why I think, you know, these different leadership style types, they're, they're not influenced by generation, they're actually how, maybe how it shows up could be a little bit different.
Right.
Saying how someone is more of like the sceptic and how that shows up. There's just as many in a younger generation as well, I don't see a distinction. I think it's universal.
So which is the rare blood type, the AB negative of the leadership styles, which is the rocking horse poo? It's hard to find that the last piece of the jigsaw you have to get in your team.
Typically I would say what I see least of, and it may be that it's, I know it has to do with the industries that I'm working with, but it's the type 4 which is the intense, creative. Typically that type tends to be in more creative, like highly creative fields. And so, but they're really good at crafting purpose and meaning behind the work. So if I, you know, I do a lot of work, healthcare, tech, professional services, financial services, those types tend to be missing. But when we do find them, they play in a key role in the team's performance, particularly being able to translate whatever it is that their goal is into like the why, what's the purpose and meaning behind what we're doing? And if anything, I would say the younger generation, they need to hear that. And so the type 4 is particularly well suited to help making that translation and understanding the why behind what the Organisation is trying to do the way.
You described that it seemed to my understanding would resonate with someone who was maybe neurodiverse. That intensity, that hyper focus, that ability to really be single, focused and creative at the same time. Is that truism or is that me just guessing?
I wouldn't say necessarily singularly focused. It's more. These types are often able to see perspectives like more more in tap with their emotion, the emotional life within them. And because they can get in touch with their own, they can get in touch with yours as well. And through that they're able to influence in a way that others can't around purpose and meaning. But also they're able to leverage those emotions to be able to bring the creativity into whatever they do. I think those that are most creative are able to tap into, they understand their own emotional life in more dep.
Okay, so flipping on the other side then, which is the O positive, which is the common leadership type? Which is the one that we've got that one first. That's the first corner we put in our jigsaw. What's the common type?
Well, typically I would say more CEOs are type threes or type 8s. There are two types that I see very common. A type 3 is the competitive achiever and type 8 is called the powerful challenger or active controller would be another way to describe them. And these two types tend to be the leader types that want to be in charge and leading the pack. So more often than not, I'm. When I'm working with a CEO, there are. Now that's not always the case by any means. And I love when I get to work with a leader who's in a different format.
But I've worked with more threes and eights than any other type at the CEO's spot.
How do you class Barack Obama then? Where would you put him on the.
You know, I don't know. That's interesting. I've never thought to think about what his type is. What's hard is what we're really looking for is what motivates you or drive you. Behaviour can vary from person to person. So if. But all we see is behaviour. So it's very hard when somebody tries to, I guess, call it like armchair type someone else because they don't actually know why they're doing what they're doing.
And that's what makes it such a rich tool. Because if you think of like an iceberg, above the waterline is behaviour. That's what we can see below the waterline. Is what's driving that behaviour, what's the motivation? And that's what this assessment really looks at. And because of that, really encourage people to. There are some ones out there that do not type people accurately because it's harder. It's a harder thing to assess. You want the ones that are.
You don't want the cheapy or freebie ones online. Like, they do not do you justice because they're probably mistyping.
They're horoscopes. They're just horoscopes.
Yeah, they're just. They're just not accurate. And so what you really want is the one that is, like, far more detailed and one that we use in our programmes that is backed by neuroscience, that has over 1200 questions in the database. They're not asking you 1200 questions, but they're using fractal mathematics to keep checking and rechecking to make sure that they get an accurate typing. So with Barack, I only have. I don't know him well enough to understand when he's described, motivation to see whether. Otherwise I just look at his behaviour and then I could mistype.
Okay, that's. That's a really fair point. That, as you say, it's. It's backed by neuroscience, and neuroscience is sitting in an armchair a thousand miles away having a guess. So that's, that's the validation, you know, we're looking for here. You have to engage in the process and it has a meaning.
Yes, Right. So, you know, there's a way to. We've got a programme called Enneagram Applied, which will both assess but also show you how to leverage that, to be able to create your own development plan and further use those around you to help understand your blind spot in more depth and leverage them in. We kind of put it a mini 360 model of leveraging those who know you best to further explore that blind spot. Because I'm also a believer, like an assessment is an assessment. It's more about what do you do with that information that makes all the difference. And so that's why we call it applied, because we want you to apply this information for your own growth, not just, like, give you a horoscope thing.
Have you got any statistics on percentage improvement or is it. Is it not that measurable? I mean, do you measure when you've got nine pieces of the jigsaw in place versus only three pieces that jigsaw in place? Is there a. Is there a demonstrable, tangible, quantitative outcome of this?
I mean, if, If I could zero in, I would have Billions.
Yes. It'd be very rich.
Yes, I know, because I see the improvement in the team. But they were making lots of different changes. Right. So it's hard to isolate the factor. It's because of this they start collaborating better and then they come up with a new idea and then they bring in a new marketing person. So you can't. It's very hard for people to isolate what was the actual thing. But I know it creates change.
So there's a certain element of cultural shift, isn't there? If you're, if you're doing the work, you become invested in the process, you become invested in the outcome and then you become more, more aware of each other and different thinking starts and personality traits. Therefore you're more tolerant of their views, you're more inviting of their views into your views. So I guess it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as well, where you, by being on the programme, doing the work, it becomes output, it gets delivered.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really does. So it's exciting work and I'm grateful to have been in this field for, like I said, Now, 25 years with my own firm over the last 20.
Wow. Wow. So it's been fascinating actually. We could probably talk another couple of hours, but, you know, we've got it, we've got to get on. How can people get ahold of you?
Sure. Well, I want to invite people, if they are curious about their superpower and potential liability that we talked about earlier, to go to susandrum.com and take. I've got a simple free quiz there that will start to illuminate what might be your superpower and liability. But the fun part comes after because what we'll do is we'll send you based on how your responses are the chapter in the book that most relates to that. And so you will get the playlist of the person who might be similar to you and what they use, what their old playlist title was, what music and what the new one is so you can play around and maybe get some ideas. If you want to create your own playlist based on what you see might need to shift in your own life from that. So we like to tie those things together and that's a fun way. So go there.
I also have my own podcast called the Enlightened Executive where we interview leaders and entrepreneurs about their own journey to enlightened leadership. And so those are two great ways to get connected. And of course my firm is meritage leadership and there's more information there too.
Fabulous, Fabulous. So Drum D R U M M - 2m's yes. Yeah.
2Ms I know. Isn't it funny that I wrote a book about music and my last name is an instance.
They say that you align with your name. I can't remember what it's called.
I don't know how this happens but it does.
There's dentist called Dr. Payne or something and there's a thing. I can't remember what it's called now maybe someone can write in and tell me but there's a, there's a thing where you become the person by your name. Well known theory, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheque that out. I wanna find out my playlist and I wanna do some assessment there. Yeah and actually my free gift back to you is I I I I feed the transcript these episodes and generate song lyrics of each episode. So it'd be really interesting to see what the song lyrics come out for this one. And I use an AI music platform called suno.
I generate you an ep so I do different music styles for Bollywood to every rock to rock ballads. So it'd be really interesting to see if any of those you go, ah, that's my playlist, that's my song. And yeah, so if you're listening to this, I have got an AI playlist of songs from the podcast. So yeah, please cheque it out.
I can't wait to hear that.
Yeah, well it's been absolutely fantastic getting to know you, having a conversation and for those listening, check out Susan on LinkedIn, on all the other platforms and visit the website. All of the details will be in the show notes.
Thank you so much for having me.
Pleasure.
As we bring this conversation to a close. I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share?
I'm all ears.
Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
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Episode Category
Primary Category: Emotional Intelligence
Secondary Category: Wellbeing
🔖 Titles
How Inclusive Leadership Habits Can Drive Genuine Belonging in the Workplace
The Neuroscience Behind Inclusion: Building Teams That Challenge and Support Growth
From Blind Spots to Superpowers: Unlocking True Inclusion in Team Dynamics
Making Inclusion Stick: Transformative Habits for Lasting Organisational Change
Why Curiosity, Not Resistance, Fuels Inclusive and High-Performing Teams
Leveraging Music and Mindset to Create an Inclusive Organisational Culture
The Role of Cognitive Diversity in Smart Decision Making and Inclusion
Breaking Self-Imposed Limits: How Leaders Widen Perspective for Better Inclusion
Enneagram Insights: The Science of Empowering Every Voice in Your Organisation
Turning Difficult Conversations Into Opportunities for Real Inclusion and Belonging
A Subtitle - A Single Sentence describing this episode
Susan Drumm explores the art of embedding lasting inclusion by uncovering invisible team patterns, leveraging the neuroscience of leadership, and channelling the transformative power of music to foster curiosity, empathy, and authentic growth.
Episode Tags
Inclusive Leadership, Organisational Change, Neurodiversity, Team Dynamics, Blind Spots, The Enneagram, Leadership Development, Cognitive Diversity, Personal Growth, Authentic Communication
Episode Summary with Intro, Key Points and a Takeaway
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood and guest Susan Drumm explore what it takes to make inclusion truly “stick” within organisations. Together, they investigate how blind spots can shape team dynamics and why curiosity, rather than resistance, serves as the real agent for personal and organisational growth. The conversation covers the value of diverse cognitive perspectives, the pitfalls of entrenched viewpoints, and practical tools such as the Enneagram for building trust, equity, and better decision-making in teams. Listeners will gain insights into the subtle ways habits and unspoken patterns influence inclusion, and how music and neuroscience can help leaders rewire unhelpful beliefs and unlock authentic change.
Susan is a renowned leadership advisor and coach, known for helping organisations turn diversity into everyday performance by embedding inclusive habits that foster trust and voice equity. Based in Scottsdale, Arizona, she brings a global perspective, having lived in London and worked with multi-sector teams across healthcare, tech, and financial services. Her gift lies in spotting the invisible patterns running teams and translating complex neuroscience into actionable, repeatable habits. Susan is also the author of The Leader’s Playlist, blending her passion for music with the science of transformation, and she hosts The Enlightened Executive podcast, where she interviews leaders about their journey towards enlightened leadership.
Joanne and Susan discuss the critical role of language in creating inclusive communication, the dangers of confirmation bias—exacerbated by AI—and the necessity of balancing empathy, curiosity, and authenticity. Using practical examples such as music playlists and leadership typologies, they illustrate how leaders can shift both their own and their team’s patterns, even in the face of imposter syndrome, burnout, and generational differences. The episode also examines common pitfalls in leadership teams, from missing creative voices to strengths that can become liabilities if left unchecked.
A key takeaway from this episode is that sustainable inclusion is built on intentional curiosity and active engagement with diverse perspectives. Listeners are encouraged to look beyond surface-level solutions, embracing practical tools to reframe their mindset and make long-lasting change. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that will both challenge and inspire anyone interested in creating authentically inclusive workplaces.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Inclusion Bites, led by Joanne Lockwood, fosters bold conversations on inclusion, belonging, and societal change, inviting participation and action.
04:37 We excel at focusing on strengths but overlook blind spots; inclusive models and others' perspectives reveal growth opportunities and expand potential.
07:11 Approach others with curiosity to understand their perspective, address blind spots, and exchange insights for mutual growth.
12:33 Recognise unseen perspectives, address team gaps in leadership styles, and ensure higher team functionality through diverse thinking.
13:44 Cognitively diverse teams, with balanced perspectives, make better decisions by addressing potential drawbacks before acting.
19:20 Beware of biases; authenticity and intuition are key in an era of easily fabricated realities.
21:35 Using music and neuroscience, the book The Leader's Playlist helps individuals identify limiting patterns, reprogramme beliefs, and transform leadership and life perspectives.
24:25 A talented marketing officer faced workplace conflicts due to perceived lack of collaboration and feelings of exclusion, leading to frustration.
29:19 Explores leadership types, their struggles, transformation, and how past patterns, like fear, persist even after success.
30:49 Empowering individuals to overcome limits and enact change.
35:53 Type 4 personalities, rare in fields like healthcare and tech, excel at conveying purpose and meaning, crucial for team motivation, especially for younger generations.
40:43 Enneagram Applied is a programme that assesses personality traits, helps create a personalised development plan, and uses insights from others to address blind spots for practical self-growth.
43:17 Visit susandrum.com to take a free quiz revealing your superpower and liability, receive a related book chapter, and explore playlists for personal growth.
44:50 Dr Payne exemplifies nominative determinism. The speaker plans to explore this, assess their playlist, and generate episode-based song lyrics via AI platform Suno.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 "Inclusion Bites: Spark Change"
04:37 "Superpowers and Blind Spots"
07:11 "Curiosity Unlocks New Perspectives"
12:33 "Seeing and Addressing Team Gaps"
13:44 "Better Decisions Through Diversity"
19:20 Authenticity Over Illusion
21:35 "Transform Leadership Through Music"
24:25 Navigating Workplace Conflict Dynamics
29:19 Leadership Patterns and Emotional Cycles
30:49 Empowering Change, Breaking Limits
35:53 "Type 4: Purposeful Creatives"
40:43 "Enneagram Applied: Growth Framework"
43:17 Discover Your Superpower Quiz
44:50 "Name Theory and AI Music"
Custom LinkedIn Post
🎙️ 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗪𝗲𝗲𝗸 𝗼𝗻 𝗜𝗻𝗰𝗹𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗕𝗶𝘁𝗲𝘀: 𝗜𝗻𝗰𝗹𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗔𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝗦𝘁𝗶𝗰𝗸𝘀 🎙️
💡 Are you really seeing the unseen patterns that shape your team? Or are you missing the blind spots sitting right behind you? Tune in for a thought-provoking minute!
This week, I’m delighted to welcome Susan Drumm, a world-class leadership adviser and coach, who’s mastered the art of turning diversity into everyday brilliance. Susan is renowned for translating cutting-edge neuroscience into simple, life-changing habits for leaders.
Together, we dig into:
🔑 Spotting Invisible Patterns – Why the best leaders see what others can’t, and how to harness your ‘blind spot’ as a superpower.
🔑 Curiosity Over Resistance – The shockingly simple shift that transforms conflict into opportunity (hint: it’s not more resistance!).
🔑 Practical Inclusion – Real strategies to make inclusion stick: build cognitive diversity, foster trust, and empower every voice on your team.
Why Listen?
“Inclusion is about understanding, and this episode is packed with insights to help you create more #PositivePeopleExperiences.”
About the Podcast
As your host on Inclusion Bites, I serve up weekly insights that inspire, challenge, and disrupt all things belonging and inclusive culture. Your minute of curiosity starts here—and the best is yet to come.
What’s your perspective? 💭 What patterns have you uncovered in your team? How do you tackle blind spots? Share your experience or thoughts below 👇 – let’s spark a proper conversation!
🎧 Listen to the full episode and others here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#PositivePeopleExperiences #SmileEngageEducate #InclusionBites #Podcasts #Shorts
#LeadershipDevelopment #CognitiveDiversity #CuriosityCulture #Neuroscience #TeamGrowth
Don’t forget to like, comment, share—and spark some curiosity amongst your network!
with SEE Change Happen and Susan Drumm
TikTok/Reels/Shorts Video Summary
Focus Keyword: Culture Change
Title:
How Culture Change Creates Positive People Experiences | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags:
culture change, positive people experiences, inclusion, belonging, leadership, podcast, diversity, inclusion podcast, workplace culture, team dynamics, empowerment, growth, cognitive diversity, innovation, organisational culture, team building, employee experience, inclusive leadership, HR, change management, neuroscience, self-awareness, team success, Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen
Killer Quote:
"Killer Quote: 'Authenticity is going to be the currency for a new tomorrow.' – Susan Drumm"
Hashtags:
#CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #InclusionBitesPodcast, #Inclusion, #Belonging, #Leadership, #Diversity, #PeopleExperience, #WorkplaceCulture, #TeamDynamics, #Empowerment, #CognitiveDiversity, #OrganisationalCulture, #ChangeManagement, #InclusiveLeadership, #HRCommunity, #Neuroscience, #SelfAwareness, #Transformation, #SEEChangeHappen
Summary Description:
Join me, Joanne Lockwood, as I dive deep into the essence of Culture Change and uncover what truly makes Positive People Experiences possible. This episode is a must-listen if you’re passionate about nurturing inclusive environments where everyone can thrive. With insights from leadership advisor Susan Drumm, we explore tangible ways to turn diversity into everyday high performance—by embedding habits that foster trust, equity, and voice for all. Discover practical tools like the Enneagram, and learn why authenticity is shaping the future of work. Subscribe for actionable inspiration and become an architect of culture transformation in your own organisation.
Call to Action: Don’t miss how Culture Change can spark real impact. Listen now, share your thoughts, and be part of the movement for Positive People Experiences!
Outro:
Thank you, the listener, for tuning in to this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast. If you loved what you heard, don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share this channel. For more resources and inspiration, visit SEE Change Happen at https://seechangehappen.co.uk.
Listen to the full episode here: The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive - Joanne Lockwood
ℹ️ Introduction
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, where we champion bold, transformative conversations that go far beyond the surface of diversity and inclusion. In this episode, "Inclusion That Actually Sticks", your host Joanne Lockwood sits down with leadership advisor Susan Drumm to explore how real inclusion becomes woven into the fabric of everyday organisational life.
Together, they unravel the invisible patterns that shape team dynamics and highlight the importance of cognitive diversity, not just for representation, but for better decision-making and collective success. Susan Drumm introduces practical frameworks, such as the Enneagram, to help uncover team blind spots and enable leaders to harness authentic perspectives—challenging the myth that inclusion is a one-size-fits-all process.
Expect to hear real stories about the power of curiosity, building trust, and the subtle habits that truly drive equity and belonging. You’ll discover how music and neuroscience can shift leadership mindsets, why self-awareness is more crucial than ever, and how even top leaders must confront their self-imposed limits to foster environments where every voice matters.
So grab your earbuds and get comfortable—it’s time for a conversation that’s set to inspire, challenge, and equip you with actionable insights for building inclusion that genuinely lasts.
💬 Keywords
inclusion, belonging, leadership, diversity, cognitive diversity, neuroscience, blind spots, team performance, inclusive habits, empathy, curiosity, communication styles, Enneagram, conflict resolution, organisational culture, growth mindset, perspectives, decision-making, authentic leadership, bias, transformation, personal development, music and neuroscience, change management, motivation, employee engagement, authenticity, trust-building, HR, leadership coaching
About this Episode
About The Episode:
In this episode, leadership advisor and coach Susan Drumm offers a compelling exploration into the habits, mindsets, and tools that create inclusion which truly lasts within organisations. Drawing on her expertise in leadership development and neuroscience, she sheds light on how teams can develop self-awareness, leverage cognitive diversity, and build authentic connections for more equitable and effective decision-making. Listeners are invited to rethink inclusion—not as a one-off initiative, but as a lived, repeatable behaviour embedded in everyday leadership.
Today, we’ll cover:
The invisible patterns and team dynamics that shape both blind spots and superpowers, and why recognising them is essential for inclusion.
How curiosity, rather than resistance, unlocks growth and widens perspective in navigating differing viewpoints.
Ways to embed inclusive language and habits that defuse opposition and foster psychological safety.
The use of frameworks like the Enneagram to uncover motivational drivers, reveal gaps in team perspectives, and assemble genuinely high-performing teams.
The value of cognitive and lived-experience diversity for better decision-making—beyond just visible characteristics.
Harnessing practical tools such as music and reframed internal narratives to break limiting beliefs, accelerate growth, and shape inclusive leadership behaviours.
Why future-ready leadership relies on empathy accuracy and compassion in a world of increasing automation and inauthenticity.
💡 Speaker bios
Joanne Lockwood is the passionate host of Inclusion Bites, a thought-provoking podcast devoted to bold conversations about inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Serving as an engaging guide, Joanne invites listeners to journey with her into the very core of what it means to foster a world where everyone not only belongs but truly thrives. Through challenging the status quo and unveiling hidden stories, she encourages her audience to connect, reflect, and inspire real change. Whether over morning coffee or at the end of a busy day, Joanne ensures everyone feels welcome and reminds us all: we are never alone on the road to greater inclusion.
💡 Speaker bios
Certainly! Here is a short bio for Susan Drumm in a summarised story format, using British English:
Susan Drumm is renowned for helping individuals uncover their unique patterns of thought and behaviour—what she calls their “superpowers”—while also revealing the hidden “blind spots” that can limit personal and professional growth. Drawing upon inclusive models, Susan encourages her clients to embrace diverse perspectives, demonstrating how others’ viewpoints can illuminate areas they might otherwise overlook. Through her guidance, people learn to recognise their self-imposed limits and broaden their horizons, paving the way for new growth and success. Her work empowers individuals not only to understand themselves better but also to seize fresh opportunities that would have previously remained out of reach.
❇️ Key topics and bullets
Certainly! Here’s a comprehensive sequence of topics covered in the episode "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, complete with sub-topic bullets under each primary theme:
1. Introduction to Inclusion Bites and Guest Welcome
Framing the podcast’s mission around inclusion and belonging (Joanne Lockwood)
Welcoming Susan Drumm and providing her bio as a leadership advisor and coach
Susan Drumm’s superpower: spotting invisible patterns and translating neuroscience into leadership habits
2. Personal Reflections and Environmental Influences
Susan Drumm’s living experiences: Arizona, the Northeast US, and London
The impact of environment (e.g., weather, seasons) on wellbeing and perspective
3. Understanding Patterns, Blind Spots, and Team Dynamics
Explanation of human cognitive limits: central vs peripheral vision
How focus of attention leads to invisible blind spots
Models for revealing superpowers and liabilities in leadership
Value of team composition in addressing individual blind spots
Growth opportunities through diverse viewpoints and mutual development
4. Curiosity vs Resistance in Inclusive Conversations
The danger of resistance and the power given to beliefs when they are resisted
Curiosity as a strategy for understanding opposing viewpoints
The development of inclusive language for robust dialogue
Entrenchment and breakdowns in conversations due to lack of openness
5. Building Skills for Difficult Conversations
Starting inclusive conversations with less divisive topics and building up to harder ones
Motivations behind dissenting behaviour within teams (Susan Drumm example: interpreting wet blanket behaviour)
Understanding and challenging our assumptions about others based on our own motivations
6. Case Study: "Worlds Apart" Commercial
Discussion of the Heineken advert “Worlds Apart” as an example of facilitating dialogue between polarised views
The importance of seeing others’ humanity and commonalities
7. Enneagram as a Tool for Leadership Development
Introduction and explanation of the Enneagram and its nine leadership styles
Superpowers and liabilities for each type
Systems model: cognitive diversity within teams
Assessing team gaps and simulating missing viewpoints (e.g., loyal sceptic)
Neuroscientific validation for the Enneagram
8. Empathy Accuracy and Compassion
Different dimensions assessed during conflict: empathy accuracy and empathy compassion
The role of these human skills in an AI-dominated future
9. AI, Authenticity, and Human Bias
Risks of AI replicating confirmation bias and inauthentic empathy
The rise of deepfakes and AI-created content, and the need to rely on intuition for authenticity
Insight into Susan Drumm’s own AI-based leadership development tool
10. Self-Knowledge and Leadership
The importance of leaders being grounded in self-awareness and inner wisdom
Potential pitfalls of over-reliance on external cues and distractions for validation
11. Music and Neuroscience for Mindset Shifts
Susan Drumm’s book: The Leader’s Playlist
Figurative and literal use of music for interrupting unhelpful patterns and building new mindsets
Case studies: applying music to break cycles (e.g., feelings of exclusion with specific playlists)
Encouragement to intentionally select music that supports desired emotions and perspectives
12. Common Challenges Among Leaders
Patterns of imposter syndrome, burnout, and personal conflicts across leadership demographics
Similar emotional struggles regardless of wealth or success, unless actively addressed
13. Generational and Gender Dynamics in Leadership
Generational influences on female executives and patterns of resilience and exhaustion
Changing expectations for leadership across generations (lean-in, reclaiming power, etc.)
Stereotypes and realities of younger vs older leaders in terms of risk and perspective
14. Leadership Styles Diversity and Team Balance
The importance of age, gender, and ethnic diversity in contributing to team and leadership style
Dispelling stereotypes about leadership style prevalence and personality
Specific types explained:
Rare: Type 4 (Intense Creative)
Common: Type 3 (Competitive Achiever), Type 8 (Powerful Challenger/Active Controller)
15. Assessment and Application of Leadership Models
Susan Drumm’s methodology for accurate assessment and personal development using the Enneagram
Importance of understanding motivation, not just observable behaviour
16. Outcomes and Impact of Inclusive Practices
Challenges in measuring improvement due to multiple interventions
Cultural shifts and self-fulfilling prophecies as teams engage in inclusion work
17. How to Connect and Additional Resources
Inviting listeners to Susan Drumm’s website to discover their superpower/liability
Free quiz and tailored playlist resource
Mention of Susan Drumm’s podcast “The Enlightened Executive”
Joanne Lockwood shares advice on connecting, AI playlists generated from podcast episodes
18. Closing Remarks
Encouragement to subscribe, share, and get involved with Inclusion Bites
Recap of the episode’s takeaways and call for action towards inclusion
This sequence reflects the episode’s in-depth and multi-layered discussion on building real inclusion, the psychological and neuroscientific underpinnings of team dynamics, and actionable personal and organisational growth strategies.
The Hook
Ever get the feeling you’re stuck in the same old patterns—while the world keeps telling you to “just be curious” and “embrace every voice”? What if the secret to real change isn’t just a mindset shift, but a radically new playlist for your leadership life? Spoiler: It’s not what you think…
Wait—are your “superpowers” actually holding you back? (Yes, really. The habits you cling to might be blinding you… and your team.) Imagine finally spotting those invisible limits—and rewriting the rules. Ready to find out what you’re missing?
Tired of the endless “diversity” talk that never really sticks? Maybe the fix isn’t more policies, but a way to hack your brain’s blind spots—and turn team friction into a winning formula. Dare to discover how high-performing teams are really built?
Leaders: Do you know what’s secretly driving your decisions, and what’s holding you hostage? (Hint: it might sound like Adele on repeat…) If you’re ready to swap self-sabotage for self-mastery, you’ll want in on this conversation.
What if deeply inclusive teams aren’t born—they’re engineered? Curiosity, clashing viewpoints, even that “annoying” colleague… Could they be your greatest growth tool? Break the cycle. The next level of leadership is about to get personal.
🎬 Reel script
On this episode of Inclusion Bites, we unpacked what it takes for inclusion to truly stick. I chatted with leadership advisor Susan Drumm, who revealed how spotting invisible patterns and embracing cognitive diversity can transform teams. We explored how simple habits, curiosity, and tools like the Enneagram help leaders widen perspectives, bust blind spots, and make space for every voice. If you’re ready to build trust, boost performance, and drive real change, tune in and ignite your own spark of inclusion.
🗞️ Newsletter
Subject: Building Lasting Inclusion: Highlights from "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" (Inclusion Bites Podcast, Ep 209)
Hello Inclusion Advocate,
Welcome back to another edition of the Inclusion Bites newsletter, where we unpack the boldest conversations in the world of inclusion, belonging, and cultural transformation. In episode 209, “Inclusion That Actually Sticks,” host Joanne Lockwood welcomes special guest, leadership advisor and coach Susan Drumm, for a vibrant exploration into making inclusion more than a buzzword—making it stick for good.
🌟 Key Insights from This Episode
Spotting Invisible Patterns in Teams
Susan Drumm artfully reveals how our “superpowers”—deep-rooted perspectives and patterns—give us strength, but can also feed our blind spots. By encouraging leaders to notice and appreciate what they may not see, Susan Drumm shares how teams can harness cognitive diversity for smarter, more balanced decisions.
The Enneagram: More than Just a Personality Quiz
Discover how the Enneagram, a nine-type leadership and motivation model, is backed by neuroscience and can illuminate gaps in team thinking and behaviour. Susan Drumm demonstrates how this approach helps leaders and teams address what they’re missing—deliberately ensuring representation of every style, including the rare and valuable “intense creative” and the often-present “competitive achiever.”
When Curiosity Trumps Resistance
Rather than digging in our heels, fostering a sense of curiosity about differing perspectives opens doors for dialogue. As illustrated through engaging examples—including the Heineken “Worlds Apart” video—Susan Drumm stresses that seeking to understand, rather than persuade, leads to more human-centric inclusion.
Harnessing Music for Mindset Change
One of the most powerful takeaways: Susan Drumm introduces the idea of using music to shift leadership mindsets. The metaphor of a personal “playlist”—built on old narratives that keep us stuck—can be remixed for a new, more empowering experience. Why not curate a song for your morning routine that lifts and emboldens you?
Top Quotes
“We get so good at looking in one direction, but there’s always something behind our head we can’t see. That’s our blind spot.”
— Susan Drumm“If you approach with curiosity—‘What perspective might I be missing?’—you create the ground for genuine inclusion”
— Susan Drumm“Music is incredibly powerful. It lets you build new neural pathways more quickly, so you can create a new perspective for yourself.”
— Susan Drumm
Try This - YOUR Inclusion Action Step
Assess your superpower and stretch zone: Take Susan Drumm’s free quiz at susandrum.com to discover your unique strengths and growth areas. You’ll even receive a handpicked playlist based on your results!
Team exercise: Before your next meeting, ask: “Who’s not in the room? What thinking style or perspective might we be missing—and how can we bring that voice in?”
Curate your leadership playlist: Choose a song that embodies the energy or value you want to carry into your day. Play it as your morning anthem and notice the shift.
Listen & Connect
Catch the full conversation here: Inclusion Bites Podcast
We love hearing your reflections—what are your inclusion “blind spots” and how are you addressing them? Reach out to Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or suggest themes and guests you’d love to hear next.
Let’s fuel a movement where everyone not only belongs, but thrives. See you on the next bite!
Warm regards,
The Inclusion Bites Team
Challenging what’s possible, one bold conversation at a time.
#InclusionBites #InclusionThatSticks #LeadershipPlaylists
🧵 Tweet thread
🧵 1/ Inclusion isn’t just about having a seat at the table—it’s about creating real belonging and transforming culture from within. In the latest #InclusionBites episode, Joanne Lockwood sits down with leadership advisor Susan Drumm to discuss "Inclusion That Actually Sticks." Let’s dive in! 👇
2/ Susan Drumm debunks the myth that one-size-fits-all approaches work. She reveals how our 'superpowers'—unique perspectives—come with invisible blind spots. High-performing teams harness a blend of perspectives, turning friction into fuel for innovation.
3/ They explore the Enneagram, a model featuring 9 leadership types. Why? Because cognitive diversity is critical. Building teams with contrasting styles spot hidden gaps, spark better questions, and drive superior decisions. Inclusion is structural, not just social. 🔍
4/ Here’s the rub: “The person who triggers you the most is the one you have the most to learn from,” shares Susan Drumm. Welcome conflict? No, but don’t shy away—curiosity exposes self-imposed limits and unlocks breakthroughs.
5/ Joanne Lockwood and Susan Drumm highlight the power of language. Instead of resisting—“But what about...”—shift to genuine curiosity: “That’s interesting. Here’s my take; what do you think?” This small switch changes energy and outcomes.
6/ They don’t shy away from tough topics; mastering “easy” inclusive convos first is essential before tackling polarising debates. Start with openness, build muscle, then scale up to real divides. Just like Heineken’s “Worlds Apart” experiment showed.
7/ AI’s on the rise, but the future belongs to humans who excel at empathy—understanding AND caring about other views (not just surface-level agreement). Authenticity is the coming super-currency; your playlist matters more than ever.
8/ Speaking of playlists—Susan Drumm links music and mindset. Our inner soundtrack shapes leadership and culture. Stuck in old patterns? Shift your playlist—literally and figuratively—to elevate your trajectory.
9/ Key takeaway: Inclusion that sticks is a choice. It requires disrupting comfortable patterns, inviting diverse ‘songs’ into our teams, and building genuine trust. Ready for actionable change? This episode is your handbook.
10/ 🎧 Listen to the full #InclusionBites episode hosted by Joanne Lockwood: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
Let’s make inclusion the rhythm of our workplaces. What’s one belief or “playlist” you’re changing this week?👇 #PositivePeopleExperiences
Guest's content for their marketing
Certainly! Here’s an article written from Susan Drumm’s perspective, for her own marketing, highlighting her experience as a guest on the "Inclusion Bites Podcast" and referencing key content from the transcript.
Unlocking Inclusion That Truly Endures: My Experience on the Inclusion Bites Podcast
I recently had the pleasure of being a guest on the "Inclusion Bites Podcast", hosted by the insightful Joanne Lockwood. This bold platform is dedicated to delving deep into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and the societal transformation needed to ensure everyone is not only welcomed but able to thrive.
During our conversation for episode 209, aptly titled “Inclusion That Actually Sticks,” we explored the practicalities and psychology behind creating cultures where true inclusion becomes part of an organisation's DNA. Drawing on my experience as a leadership advisor and coach, I shared how translating complex neuroscience and recognising invisible team dynamics can create lasting, meaningful change.
Spotting Invisible Patterns: Superpowers in Action
One core theme we discussed was the concept of “invisible patterns”—those often unseen habits and mindsets that govern team behaviours and limit potential. As I mentioned on the episode, my superpower is helping leaders and teams spot these self-imposed limits. By bringing awareness to such patterns, and understanding that others on the team may see what we cannot, we open the door to new opportunities for growth, success, and high-performance decision-making.
Harnessing Curiosity and Neuro-Inclusion
A critical takeaway was the need to build curiosity rather than resistance in the face of difference. We explored how curiosity can help teams move away from entrenched positions and towards mutual growth, echoing the neuroscience-backed understanding that habits and beliefs influence how we show up at work and in life.
Practical Tools: The Enneagram and The Power of Music
On the podcast, I introduced two of my favourite transformative tools: the Enneagram and music. The Enneagram, a system of nine core leadership styles, allows teams to diagnose blind spots, name their superpowers, and identify potential liabilities in their collective approach. When teams become aware of which cognitive perspectives are missing in the room, they can intentionally diversify viewpoints to make better decisions and drive performance.
Music is another powerful yet underutilised tool. I shared insights from my book, "The Leader’s Playlist", on how music can help leaders rewire old patterns and create new, empowering mindsets—allowing them to break free from beliefs that hold them back and embrace the energy needed to inspire others.
The Human Element: Empathy and Authenticity in the Age of AI
With technology and AI evolving at rapid pace, we discussed why two deeply human skills—empathy accuracy and empathy compassion—are more crucial than ever. As logical, repetitive tasks are increasingly handled by machines, it’s our ability to truly understand and care for others' perspectives that sets us apart and sustains inclusive cultures.
From Insight to Action
The Inclusion Bites Podcast is more than another conversation on diversity—it’s a call to action. My goal is always to move beyond theory into the realm of daily habits: fostering trust, building voice equity, and helping teams realise that inclusion is an active process, not a one-off initiative.
If you're keen to uncover the patterns that quietly shape your leadership and want to drive lasting inclusion in your organisation, I invite you to listen to my episode on Inclusion Bites. Better yet, explore your own superpower and leadership habits—details of which I share in my book and on my website.
Thank you again to Joanne Lockwood for facilitating such a purpose-driven, transformative conversation. Tune in to Inclusion Bites for real-world inspiration and actionable strategies that challenge the status quo and ignite change.
Listen to my episode and join the movement at: Inclusion Bites Podcast
Keen to connect? Share your thoughts or learn more at susandrum.com or find me on LinkedIn.
Pain Points and Challenges
Here are the specific pain points and challenges highlighted in the episode “Inclusion That Actually Sticks,” with practical approaches focused on addressing these issues:
1. Blind Spots and Self-Imposed Limitations Within Teams
Pain Point:
Susan Drumm discusses how individuals and teams develop patterns of focus that leave areas—blind spots—unattended, which inherently limits growth and impedes inclusion.
Solution Focus:
Promote Self-awareness: Encourage team members to regularly reflect on their perspectives and assess habitual thinking patterns. This can be achieved through feedback sessions and reflective exercises.
Use Inclusive Models: Implement cognitive diversity tools (e.g. the Enneagram) to map out team strengths and gaps, fostering understanding of different viewpoints and leveraging them for well-rounded decisions.
2. Resistance to Different Perspectives
Pain Point:
The podcast highlights how team members may “grip” onto their beliefs, creating resistance and conflict, even when others are simply bringing alternative, beneficial viewpoints.
Solution Focus:
Cultivate Curiosity: Shift the culture from defensiveness to open curiosity. Establish ground rules for communications that encourage questioning with phrases like “That’s interesting—here’s how I see it, what about your perspective?”
Structured Dialogue: Start with lower-stakes conversations to build the skill of constructive disagreement before progressing to divisive topics.
3. Lack of Skills and Language for Inclusive Communication
Pain Point:
A recurring theme is the absence of language and skillsets that enable inclusive dialogue. Teams default to entrenched positions, leading to breakdown rather than understanding.
Solution Focus:
Train in Inclusive Language: Provide micro-training or workshops on using invitational and exploratory language, focusing on both empathy-accuracy (“Do I understand?”) and empathy-compassion (“Do I care?”).
Model Vulnerability: Leaders and influential team members should role model conversations where genuine curiosity and humility are prioritised.
4. Unconscious Patterns and Triggers
Pain Point:
People are often unaware of old psychological “playlists” (i.e. ingrained beliefs or emotional patterns) that get triggered in professional relationships, overlaying current situations with past experiences of exclusion, frustration, or fear.
Solution Focus:
Pattern Recognition Exercises: Encourage individuals to identify and name recurring emotional themes—with coaching support if needed. The metaphor of “playlists” can help make this more tangible.
Intentional Mindset Shifts: Use music or other sensory cues to anchor new patterns, supporting the process of rewiring beliefs in moments of stress.
5. Over-reliance on Homogeneous Thinking
Pain Point:
Teams often lack intentional diversity in cognitive styles, which can undermine their capacity for balanced, innovative decision-making. Missing types (like the “loyal sceptic” or “intense creative”) can leave whole areas of risk or opportunity unaddressed.
Solution Focus:
Diversity Audits: Regularly audit team profiles for gaps in cognitive or personality styles. If a particular type is missing, consciously adopt practices or hire for those attributes.
Role Rotation: In team sessions, assign roles like “devil’s advocate” or “purpose driver” to stimulate contributions from all nine (or more) leadership styles, even if not present.
6. Superficial Use of Tools and Assessments
Pain Point:
There’s a tendency to use superficial assessments (such as poor-quality personality tests) that don’t address underlying drivers of behaviour—leading to categorisation rather than insight.
Solution Focus:
Choose Robust, Neuroscience-informed Tools: Use assessments that probe for motivations, not just behaviours, and provide facilitated debriefs so insights become actionable.
Applied Learning: Supplement any assessment with application steps—personal development plans, collective team discussions, and ongoing feedback loops.
7. Digital Echo Chambers and AI Bias
Pain Point:
Both Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood raise concerns about AI and digital platforms reinforcing existing beliefs, making it harder to challenge assumptions or access genuine, diverse perspectives.
Solution Focus:
Teach Digital Critical Thinking: Build digital literacy by encouraging users to seek out disconfirming evidence and ask AI to challenge their thinking, not just confirm it.
Prioritise Authenticity: Anchor judgments in human intuition and emotional intelligence rather than deferring blindly to digital outputs.
8. Intergenerational and Gendered Challenges
Pain Point:
There are distinct generational and gendered experiences of leadership, especially for women who have had to “fight and claw their way” in earlier decades. These differences risk becoming new sources of bias or misunderstanding.
Solution Focus:
Intergenerational Dialogue: Facilitate story-sharing across generations, exploring varied leadership journeys while avoiding prescriptive “one right way” mindsets.
Address Burnout and Resilience: Recognise the specific emotional toll on different groups and provide targeted support for recovery and empowerment.
This episode makes clear that true, sustainable inclusion is a daily practice of curiosity, self-awareness, and breaking old patterns. Addressing these pain points requires intentional frameworks, honest dialogue, the right tools, and above all, a willingness to see oneself—and others—afresh.
For a deeper dive and actionable insights, subscribe to Inclusion Bites Podcast, or reach out directly to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to continue the conversation.
Questions Asked that were insightful
Absolutely—several moments in the conversation between Joanne Lockwood and Susan Drumm lent themselves beautifully to a potential FAQ series, owing to the depth and practicality of their exchanges. Here are some suggested questions, each reflecting insightful or thought-provoking responses from the discussion. These questions can readily anchor an engaging, informative FAQ for the Inclusion Bites audience:
1. What makes inclusion ‘stick’ within teams and organisations, beyond simple box-ticking?
Inspired by Susan Drumm’s explanation of how embedding inclusive habits leads to more effective decisions and everyday high performance.
2. How can teams leverage individual ‘superpowers’ and blind spots for collective growth?
Drawing on Susan Drumm’s metaphor about central and peripheral vision, and how unseen team perspectives can actually become the greatest catalysts for development.
3. Why is curiosity more powerful than resistance in bridging diverse perspectives?
Reflecting Susan Drumm’s point that resistance entrenches difference, while curiosity allows us to see gifts in perspectives we find challenging.
4. What practical tools can leaders use to reveal patterns and motivations within their teams?
Based on Susan Drumm’s introduction to the Enneagram and her description of using models that highlight both the strengths and ‘liabilities’ of different team members.
5. Can music really change leadership mindset and break negative patterns? How?
Echoing Susan Drumm’s discussion of her “Leader’s Playlist” method and examples where shifting the music metaphorically and literally helped leaders break old cycles.
6. Are there different leadership challenges depending on gender or generation?
Prompted by Joanne Lockwood’s direct question on this, and Susan Drumm’s acknowledgement of generational shifts—particularly for women leaders who have faced additional institutional barriers.
7. How do leaders move past imposter syndrome and create authentic self-belief?
Built upon Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood’s comments on the prevalence of imposter syndrome, even amongst high achievers, and strategies for confronting these patterns.
8. What is the advantage of having cognitively diverse teams, and can you be ‘too similar’ as a group?
Reflecting Susan Drumm’s insights on the dangers of missing certain Enneagram types within teams, especially when homogeneity leads to groupthink.
9. Does using AI in leadership or team development run the risk of reinforcing bias or complacency?
Raised during their cautionary exchange about AI’s tendency to agree with the user and how this can undermine the necessary tension for growth and challenge.
10. How can leaders use self-awareness and introspection as foundations for more inclusive cultures?
Summarising the numerous times both speakers referenced the power of knowing oneself, examining one’s own drivers, and breaking limiting beliefs.
Each of these questions directly aligns with substantive exchanges in the episode and would undoubtedly stimulate robust audience engagement and learning, true to the Inclusion Bites ethos.
Blog article based on the episode
Inclusion That Actually Sticks: How to Make Real Change in Your Organisation
What if the key to lasting inclusion was less about grand statements and more about reprogramming the soundtrack in our minds—and our teams?
In an age where Diversity and Inclusion workshops cascade across corporate calendars, many organisations are discovering a stark truth: their inclusion initiatives aren’t sticking. Unconscious biases linger, echo chambers thrive, and the status quo—rooted in old, invisible patterns—remains undisturbed. As Susan Drumm, leadership advisor and host of this week’s Inclusion Bites Podcast episode, “Inclusion That Actually Sticks”, powerfully argues, achieving sustainable inclusion isn’t just about representation. It’s about listening, learning, and re-wiring the underlying habits that shape how we see others and ourselves.
The Real Problem: Patterns and Blind Spots
Joanne Lockwood, host of Inclusion Bites, sets the tone with a familiar dilemma: “Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs, but thrives?” The answer, as Susan Drumm compellingly illustrates, lies in understanding that most leaders and teams unconsciously develop ‘superpowers’—specific ways of seeing the world—alongside equally powerful blind spots. We become so adept at seeing issues from one vantage point that we miss crucial perspectives, resulting in insular cultures and missed opportunities for growth.
These entrenched thought patterns aren’t just personal—they’re systemic. “[We] get stuck in our in groups,” notes Susan Drumm, pointing out how our deepest motivations and internal narratives shape the way we interpret others’ behaviours, often leading to misunderstanding and resistance. As she says, “Anything you resist, you give it more power.”
How Blind Spots Halt Inclusion
If our ‘superpowers’ double as limitations, it’s crucial to identify and address the gaps. This is neatly underscored by Susan Drumm’s analogy: “We think we’re chameleons and can see 360 degrees, but we can’t.” By honing in on what feels familiar or safe, we often overlook competing viewpoints that, paradoxically, could offer our greatest opportunities for growth.
When teams ignore these realities, we see the same issues arise: those who challenge the group’s consensus are labelled as negative or disruptive. Those with less power in the room feel shut out, and true innovation stalls. Even well-meaning leaders may slip into defensiveness, doubling down on resistance rather than engaging with dissent.
Solutions That Stick: From Neuroscience to Everyday Habits
The antidote, according to Susan Drumm, is twofold: fostering curiosity and embedding inclusive habits in daily routines. But what does this look like in practice?
1. Curiosity Over Resistance
True inclusion starts by challenging our certainties. Rather than defending our perspective, Susan Drumm encourages leaders to approach conversation with curiosity: “Let me understand that perspective and let me look from that... What aspect of this could I incorporate, or what gift could I give because of my superpower looking in the other way?”
Leaders should build the muscle of asking, “What am I not seeing? Who is looking where I cannot?” It’s about turning potential challengers into allies for personal and organisational growth.
2. Build Cognitive Diversity Intentionally
To unearth and address invisible patterns, Susan Drumm leverages tools like the Enneagram—a model that outlines nine leadership types, each with its own strengths and natural blind spots. The true value, she asserts, is in seeing not only your type but also what’s missing on your team.
Are all your leaders quick to act but reluctant to pause and evaluate risk? Perhaps your team is missing a ‘loyal sceptic’—someone whose caution could save you from preventable missteps. The actionable insight: assess your team’s styles and ensure underrepresented viewpoints are given a platform. When hiring or assigning project leads, consider these gaps.
3. Embrace Empathy: Accuracy and Compassion
In the age of AI, where data is king and logic rules, Susan Drumm believes the true competitive advantage lies in pure human skills: empathy accuracy (“Do I truly understand your perspective?”) and empathy compassion (“Am I willing to care about it?”). Both are needed for genuine connection and collaboration.
Inclusion “that sticks” means moving past box-ticking empathy and developing a deeper, more courageous willingness to step into others’ shoes—even, and especially, when it feels uncomfortable.
4. Interrupt Old Patterns—With Music
One of the most powerful and practical approaches discussed in the episode is the use of music to shift entrenched mindsets. Susan Drumm, author of The Leader’s Playlist, suggests that personal transformation is like curating a playlist that supports the leader you aspire to become.
Consider a leader whose inner narrative is stuck on “I am excluded”. Left unchallenged, this belief colours every meeting, every interaction, and every strategic decision. By identifying the ‘songs’ and beliefs that keep them stuck, and intentionally choosing new music—and new beliefs—they can reprogram their responses. “Music allows you to build new neural pathways more quickly,” Susan Drumm explains. The lesson: be deliberate about the inputs shaping your mindset and be prepared to update your internal soundtrack.
Get Started: Actionable Items
Map your superpower and blind spots. Use a tool such as the Enneagram or another team dynamic assessment to clarify what you—personally, and as a team—see easily and what you consistently miss.
Structure conversations for curiosity. Make it normal to say, “That’s interesting—here’s how I’ve seen it. What do you think?” Rather than, “But what about X?”, choose language that invites dialogue rather than sets up opposition.
Regularly review team makeup. Actively seek to include missing leadership styles in discussions and decision-making, or assign someone to play that ‘devil’s advocate’ or ‘visionary’ if such a role is absent.
Use music and metaphor to support habit change. Reflect on your ‘playlist’—the stories and narratives you reinforce internally. Intentionally select music or mantras that align with new, more inclusive beliefs about yourself and others.
Train for empathy—both in accuracy (Do I get where you’re coming from?) and compassion (Do I care?). Recognise these as vital leadership skills, not optional extras.
Why Inclusion Needs to Stick—Now More Than Ever
Inclusion isn’t a one-off initiative or a compliance tick box; it’s the everyday fabric of thriving organisations. As Susan Drumm wisely puts it, “You don’t change unless you do the work to change.” Only by recognising and rewriting our inner and outer narratives—one conversation, one habit, one playlist at a time—can we embed inclusion so deeply it actually sticks.
Your Call to Action
If you’re ready to challenge the status quo and build teams where every voice truly matters, the journey starts within—by seeing your own patterns, inviting difference, and creating new daily habits. Dive deeper by listening to this episode of Inclusion Bites, “Inclusion That Actually Sticks”, and let Susan Drumm’s insights inspire your next steps. Take Susan Drumm’s free superpower quiz, reflect on your team’s diversity of thought, and begin to rewire your organisation from the inside out.
Change really does start with a single question: What’s the story—or the song—you want playing as you lead the way?
Listen to the full episode here: Inclusion That Actually Sticks
For show notes, resources, and to join the conversation, connect with Joanne Lockwood via jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Together, let’s make inclusion the rhythm that underpins every success. #InclusionBites #InclusionThatSticks
The standout line from this episode
A standout line from this episode comes from Susan Drumm:
"The person that triggers you is probably the person that you have the most growth to learn from."
This encapsulates the episode’s central message about embracing discomfort and different perspectives as catalysts for authentic inclusion and personal development.
❓ Questions
Certainly! Here are 10 discussion questions based on the episode “Inclusion That Actually Sticks” from the Inclusion Bites Podcast:
Susan Drumm discusses the importance of understanding one’s superpowers and blind spots within a team. How might recognising these blind spots enhance inclusion and performance in the workplace?
The episode introduces the concept of using curiosity rather than resistance to approach different perspectives. How can leaders cultivate a culture of curiosity within their teams, especially when faced with conflicting views?
Susan Drumm speaks about the Enneagram as a tool for identifying leadership styles. In what ways could incorporating the Enneagram or similar models help further inclusion and cognitive diversity in organisations?
The conversation highlights the potential dangers of inauthentic or reinforcing feedback from AI tools. What steps can leaders and organisations take to ensure technology genuinely supports diverse perspectives instead of simply affirming existing beliefs?
Empathy accuracy and empathy compassion are mentioned as critical human skills, particularly as AI advances. How can organisations train and encourage these competencies to future-proof their teams for a more inclusive environment?
Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood explore the effect of music on mindset and inclusion. How could intentionally using music or similar cultural elements reflect or impact inclusive leadership and team dynamics?
The episode discusses the experience of exclusion and the power of reframing one's narrative through new “playlists” or beliefs. How can leaders support individuals to move past limiting beliefs that hinder inclusion and contribution?
Cognitive diversity is valued as critical to high-functioning teams. What practical steps can leaders take when a specific leadership ‘type’ or perspective is missing within their team structure?
The episode touches on generational and gender differences in leadership journeys. How might lived experience, rather than stereotypes, serve as a resource for inclusive practices in your own organisation or team?
Susan Drumm notes that true cultural shift comes from teams investing in self-awareness and inclusivity work. What are sustainable methods for embedding these practices into daily habits, rather than treating inclusion as a one-off training topic?
These questions are designed to provoke deep reflection and practical discussion around themes raised in the podcast—ideal for team debriefs, leadership workshops, or personal contemplation.
FAQs from the Episode
Inclusion That Actually Sticks — Frequently Asked Questions
1. What is the main theme of this episode?
The core theme is how inclusion can be embedded in organisations so it truly “sticks”—moving beyond surface-level action to create lasting changes in culture, performance, and belonging. Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood discuss practical ways to help teams build trust, encourage every voice, and develop habits that foster true inclusion.
2. Who is the guest on this episode and what is her expertise?
The guest is Susan Drumm, a respected leadership advisor and coach. She specialises in harnessing diversity for enhanced performance by developing inclusive habits, spotting “invisible patterns” in teams, and translating neuroscience into repeatable behaviours for leaders.
3. How do blind spots affect inclusion and team dynamics?
Blind spots are the perspectives, motivations, or behavioural patterns leaders and teams overlook. Susan Drumm explains that individuals develop expertise by focusing attention in certain areas (“superpowers”), but inevitably neglect others. Inclusion flourishes when teams recognise these blind spots and value the input of those who see things differently, allowing for more effective decision-making and innovation.
4. What are the Enneagram leadership styles, and how do they relate to inclusion?
The Enneagram is a psychological and behavioural model identifying nine leadership style types. Each type has a superpower and an associated liability, reflecting core motivations and blind spots. Susan Drumm uses the Enneagram to help teams understand cognitive diversity, identify missing perspectives, and ensure more balanced and comprehensive team functioning.
5. How does curiosity support inclusive cultures?
Curiosity is highlighted as an antidote to resistance. By actively seeking to understand others’ viewpoints—instead of clinging defensively to one’s own—curiosity opens the door to more inclusive conversations and helps people see beyond their default assumptions. Language and approach matter; inviting dialogue versus arguing strengthens psychological safety and inclusion.
6. What role can neuroscience play in developing inclusion that sticks?
Neuroscience underpins much of Susan Drumm’s approach. For example, the Enneagram’s patterns can be observed in the way the brain forms habits through experience and socialisation. Music is also referenced as a neuroscience-based tool—it can be used intentionally to ‘rewire’ thinking, interrupt negative patterns, and embed new, empowering beliefs about self and others.
7. Can you give an example of music supporting leadership and inclusion?
Yes. Susan Drumm shares how leaders can use music both literally and metaphorically to disrupt detrimental “internal playlists” such as feelings of exclusion or not belonging. By replacing old, limiting playlists with new, empowering ones (supported by uplifting songs), leaders and teams can promote more inclusive behaviours and break free from self-imposed limitations.
8. How should teams address missing perspectives or leadership styles?
Teams should proactively identify which Enneagram types or cognitive perspectives are absent and find ways to compensate. For instance, if a team lacks a sceptical, risk-focused voice, they might assign someone to consider worst-case scenarios in decision-making. Ideally, future hires should also address these gaps to ensure maximum breadth of perspective and skill.
9. How does Susan Drumm suggest leaders develop better self-knowledge?
She recommends leaders take time to reflect, understand their own patterns, and use assessments such as the Enneagram to surface blind spots. Leaders are encouraged to become grounded and authentic, relying more on inner wisdom rather than external validation, especially in a world where AI and technology can distort or reinforce existing biases.
10. Is there a “universal” leadership type, or does effective leadership require a mix?
While certain types (such as the “competitive achiever” or “powerful challenger”) are common among CEOs, Susan Drumm warns against the idea of a one-size-fits-all leadership style. Effective teams and leaders benefit from a mix of perspectives, backgrounds, and styles—age, gender, ethnicity, and lived experience all matter, but so does cognitive diversity.
11. Are there ways to measure the effectiveness of these approaches?
Quantitative measurement can be challenging due to the complexity of organisational change. Susan Drumm shares that whilst improvements in collaboration and decision-making are observable, culture shift is often the outcome of multiple interventions. What’s clear is that investment in self-awareness, team curiosity, and diversity of thought creates tangible improvements in team performance and inclusion.
12. Where can I engage further or find out my Enneagram type?
You can visit Susan Drumm’s website for a free superpower and liability quiz, which includes a tailored playlist and related book insights. For more conversations, episodes, and resources, listen to the Inclusion Bites Podcast at seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.
For further questions, story sharing, or if you’d like to join the discussion, contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Tell me more about the guest and their views
The guest of this episode is Susan Drumm, a leadership advisor and coach renowned for helping organisations translate diversity into tangible everyday performance. Her focus is on embedding inclusive habits within teams, fostering trust, ensuring equity of voice, and ultimately enabling better decision-making.
A central theme in Susan Drumm's perspective is her ability to spot the “invisible patterns” that drive team dynamics—those unseen mechanisms and blind spots that often dictate how teams operate, collaborate, and sometimes collide. She draws on complex neuroscience and distils this into simple, repeatable habits, enabling leaders to broaden their perspectives while creating space for every voice in the room. Rather than seeing difference as a threat, she challenges teams to view diversity of viewpoint as a vital growth opportunity.
Key insights from Susan Drumm's approach include:
The Importance of Blind Spots: She emphasises how everyone has their particular focus, shaped by their life experience and strengths, which in turn creates blind spots. True inclusion is only possible when individuals and teams acknowledge these unseen areas and deliberately seek out alternative perspectives.
Utilising the Enneagram: Susan Drumm advocates for tools like the Enneagram—a system identifying nine leadership styles based on underlying motivators—to better understand team composition. She argues that the most effective teams are “cognitively diverse”, containing varying perspectives and questioning styles.
Curiosity Over Resistance: Rather than clinging to certainties or heightening resistance when challenged, she encourages approaching difference with curiosity. This, she suggests, lays the foundation for better listening, more open conversations, and ultimately, more effective and inclusive teamwork.
Music as a Development Tool: In her book, "The Leader’s Playlist", Susan Drumm explores using music, both metaphorically and literally, to interrupt unhelpful patterns and reinforce transformative beliefs. She illustrates how individuals can rewire their habitual reactions by pairing these moments of insight with intentional music choices, shaping a new mindset and boosting leadership impact.
Empathy and Compassion: Susan Drumm notes that as AI increasingly handles logical tasks, the human skills of “empathy accuracy” (understanding another’s perspective) and “empathy compassion” (truly caring about it) become ever more crucial in leadership.
Overall, Susan Drumm's views are rooted in the belief that sustainable inclusion is about creating self-aware leaders who appreciate the inherent diversity within their teams—not just demographically, but in thought, motivation, and style. Her work is about equipping organisations and leaders to widen participation, surface hidden strengths, and dismantle invisible barriers that limit both performance and belonging.
Listeners interested in deepening their knowledge about their own leadership patterns, blind spots, or the impact of music on mindset can visit Susan Drumm's website, take her free quiz, or explore her book and podcast, all of which were mentioned in the episode.
Ideas for Future Training and Workshops based on this Episode
Absolutely, here are ideas for future training and workshops inspired directly by this episode of Inclusion Bites with Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood:
1. Widening Perspective: Recognising Superpowers and Blind Spots within Teams
Focus: Help participants identify their unique strengths ("superpowers") and potential blind spots, leveraging models like the Enneagram.
Activities:
Interactive self-assessment (using validated Enneagram tools)
Group mapping of cognitive diversity
Role-play scenarios where team members act as each other’s “blind spot spotters”
2. The Neuroscience of Building Inclusive Habits
Focus: Translate complex neuroscience into simple, actionable habits for workplace inclusion.
Activities:
Micro-learning on neuroplasticity as it relates to unlearning bias
Creating daily “inclusive habit trackers”
Practice sessions using curiosity-driven questioning
3. Music as a Catalyst for Leadership Transformation
Focus: Harness the power of music and personal playlists for mind-shifting and embedding inclusive leadership values.
Activities:
Curate personal “leadership playlists”
Guided reflection on music’s emotional impact and its use in breaking limiting internal narratives
Group sharing of playlist tracks aligned with organisational values
4. Empathy in Action: Developing Accuracy and Compassion
Focus: Distinguish between empathy accuracy (the ability to understand) and empathy compassion (the willingness to care).
Activities:
Case studies and paired discussions to practise empathic listening
Interactive exercises where participants swap perspectives on divisive topics
Development of “empathy action plans” for challenging team situations
5. Curiosity Before Conviction: Mastering Difficult Conversations
Focus: Build foundational confidence in opening, rather than confronting, across difference.
Activities:
Training on curiosity-led dialogue vs. resistant “debate”
Practice using inclusive language (e.g., "That’s interesting, here’s how I see it…")
Simulated conversations scaling from low-stakes to tougher real-world D&I tensions
6. Plugging Cognitive Gaps: Building Balanced, High-Performing Teams
Focus: Practical tools for assessing and addressing cognitive diversity gaps as a determinant of team performance.
Activities:
Team Enneagram “gap analysis”
Scenario planning: What happens when key perspectives are missing?
Structured decision-making sessions, deliberately assigning “missing” roles
7. Leading Authentically in the Age of AI
Focus: Navigating authenticity, intuition, and discernment in a technological world where AI can amplify bias or reinforce echo chambers.
Activities:
Workshops to practise challenging AI-generated feedback
Discussions on the importance of authenticity and intuition for 21st-century leaders
Case studies on digital manipulation and building trust in hybrid/AI-enhanced teams
8. Generational and Gender Patterns in Leadership – Myths and Realities
Focus: Debunk stereotypes about age, gender and leadership success, working from actual lived experiences.
Activities:
Open dialogue rounds reflecting on generational experiences
Comparative exercises on different routes to leadership success
Personal storytelling to disrupt limiting beliefs
9. Changing your Inner Narrative: ‘Playlisting’ for Belonging and Growth
Focus: Guide leaders to identify and change personal “playlists” (recurring self-narratives) that limit inclusion, resilience, or belonging.
Activities:
Identify personal default narratives (“I am excluded”, “I have to do it all myself”)
Group coaching to reframe and “rewrite” unhelpful scripts
Routine music-based interventions for attitude shifts
Each theme can be tailored as a half-day or full-day session, designed for senior leaders, middle managers, or whole-team interventions. Embedding these ideas positions inclusion as ongoing practice—much more than a one-off event.
🪡 Threads by Instagram
True inclusion goes beyond policies—it's about spotting our blind spots, embracing curiosity, and making space for every voice. As Susan Drumm notes, exchanging perspectives makes teams stronger and decisions wiser.
Ever noticed how we slip into the same patterns at work and in life? Susan Drumm shares that music can be a powerful tool to rewire our thinking and help break free from the stories holding us back.
High-performing teams aren’t built on similarity, but on cognitive diversity. When we value different leadership styles, we plug our blind spots and make better decisions, says Susan Drumm.
Inclusion that sticks starts with curiosity. Asking, “Is it really the way it is?” opens doors to richer conversations and new solutions, not just more resistance. Let’s choose curiosity over certainty.
Authenticity is the new currency. As Susan Drumm puts it, knowing ourselves deeply helps us lead with purpose—even in an AI age. Trust your inner compass over fleeting external noise.
Leadership Insights - YouTube Short Video Script on Common Problems for Leaders to Address
Leadership Insights Channel
Are you a leader frustrated by team members pushing back or always "throwing cold water" on your ideas? Here's the issue: Often, we assume others are difficult, when really, they're bringing perspectives we might not see.
Here's what you can do: Pause and ask yourself, "What is motivating their response?" Practice curiosity over resistance. When a colleague challenges you, try this: say, "That's interesting. Here's how I’ve viewed it—what do you think?" Inviting discussion, not argument, stops people entrenching in their views and opens the door to better collaboration.
Remember: Your blind spot might be their superpower. By welcoming alternative viewpoints, you tap into team strengths you’d otherwise miss. So, next time you feel triggered or defensive, choose curiosity. Harness every voice, and you’ll make better, more inclusive decisions—every time.
SEO Optimised Titles
9 Leadership Styles Revealed by Neuroscience for High-Performing Teams | Susan @ Meritage Leadership
Boost Decision-Making with Cognitive Diversity: Inside the Enneagram Model for Teams | Susan @ Meritage Leadership
Break Free from Limiting Patterns: How Music and Mindset Transform Executive Success | Susan @ Meritage Leadership
Email Newsletter about this Podcast Episode
Subject: Inclusion That Actually Sticks – 5 Transformative Keys from the Latest Inclusion Bites Episode
Hello Inclusion Bites community,
We’re back with another episode designed to spark those ‘aha’ moments and inspire positive action! In this week’s edition, Joanne Lockwood sits down with the insightful Susan Drumm, a leadership advisor whose expertise is turning diversity into everyday excellence.
Here’s what you’ll unlock in this episode:
1. Spotting Your Invisible Patterns
Discover how we all develop blind spots—and why recognising them can turn colleagues from “workplace adversaries” into our greatest teachers.
2. Why Superpowers Come with Liabilities
Find out why your strengths could be holding you back, and how understanding both sides leads to more inclusive, high-performing teams.
3. Habits for Curiosity, not Resistance
Learn language tools and mindset shifts that open up more inclusive conversations, sparking trust and collaboration instead of defensiveness.
4. Building Teams for Real Cognitive Diversity
Explore the Enneagram leadership framework and see how mapping out different cognitive styles can expose vital gaps—and boost wiser decision-making.
5. How Music Changes Mindsets (And Leaders)
Be inspired by Susan Drumm’s unique “leader’s playlist” approach—using music to break unhelpful patterns, build new beliefs, and step into our best leadership selves.
Unique Episode Highlight:
Did you know Susan Drumm blends neuroscience, music, and leadership in her work—and that her actual surname is Drumm? Joanne jokes about “nominative determinism” (when your name matches your calling), giving this episode a rhythm all its own!
Ready to be part of the movement?
Tune in, share with your network, and let’s keep driving change together. If you’d like to go deeper, try Susan Drumm’s free online quiz to spot your superpower and even receive a custom playlist based on your leadership style. All the links and more are in the full show notes:
👉 Inclusion Bites Episode 209: Inclusion That Actually Sticks
Feeling inspired or have a story to share? Email Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Your voice truly matters here.
Let’s keep breaking patterns and building belonging—one bold conversation at a time. Until the next bite,
Joanne & the Inclusion Bites team
#InclusionBites #MakeChangeHappen
Potted Summary
Episode Intro
Join Joanne Lockwood as she welcomes leadership advisor Susan Drumm to discuss how genuinely inclusive behaviours “stick” within teams and organisations. Delve into the neuroscience of human patterns, blind spots, and the transformative power of curiosity and music in creating environments where everyone belongs and thrives. Whether you’re a leader or passionate about inclusion, this episode is packed with practical insights to embed habits that spark lasting change and empower every voice.
In this conversation we discuss
👉 Inclusive habits
👉 Cognitive diversity
👉 Music for mindset
Here are a few of our favourite quotable moments
“Anything you resist, you give it power and you give it more power.” – Susan Drumm
“The person that triggers you is probably the person that you have the most growth to learn from.” – Susan Drumm
“I think today authenticity is going to be the currency for a new tomorrow.” – Susan Drumm
Summary & Call to Action
This episode unlocks practical approaches for embedding real inclusion, harnessing curiosity, and re-programming limiting patterns. Learn how habits, cognitive diversity, and even music can transform your leadership and team culture. Ready to become the change? Listen now to Inclusion Bites and empower yourself with the tools to make inclusion truly stick. Catch the latest episode at: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
LinkedIn Poll
LinkedIn Poll Context Summary:
On the latest episode of Inclusion Bites, Joanne Lockwood sits down with Susan Drumm to explore “Inclusion That Actually Sticks”. They discuss how leaders and teams can embed inclusive habits, leverage diversity of thought, and use self-awareness tools like the Enneagram and music to break free from blind spots and unconscious patterns. An essential theme centres on the power of curiosity, authentic conversations, and building cognitively diverse teams for better decisions and a sense of real belonging.
Poll Question:
Which habit do you think best helps create inclusion that actually sticks in teams? 🌍
Options:
🔄 Embracing curiosity
🧠 Using self-awareness tools
🎶 Incorporating music/mindset
🗣️ Inviting all perspectives
#InclusionBites #BelongingAtWork #Leadership #DiversityMatters
Why Vote?
Your insights help shape the future of workplace inclusion by highlighting which practical actions inspire lasting change. Cast your vote and let’s spark more meaningful shifts together!
Highlight the Importance of this topic on LinkedIn
Just tuned in to "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, featuring Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood, and wow—what a powerfully relevant conversation for all HR, EDI, and senior leaders. 🎧
This episode dives into real inclusion—not just box-ticking, but embedding inclusive habits that create true belonging and everyday performance.
Key takeaways:
🔍 The value of cognitive diversity and identifying our own blind spots.
🗣 Turning curiosity into action: inviting every voice and challenging our default perspectives.
🧠 Leveraging models like the Enneagram—and even music!—to shift organisational culture and mindset.
🤝 High-performing teams must be built intentionally with trust, psychological safety, and mutual growth at the core.
As leaders, it’s on us to move beyond performative D&I and hardwire inclusion into strategy, talent, and our organisational fabric. This isn’t just the right thing—it drives better decisions and unlocks business performance.
If you care about the future of inclusive leadership, add this episode to your must-listen list.
Let’s make inclusion stick—one habit, one team, one organisation at a time. 🌍✨
#InclusionBites #Leadership #HR #EDI #Belonging #ChangeMakers
Listen here 👉 https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
L&D Insights
Key Takeaways for Senior Leaders, HR & EDI Professionals from "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" — Inclusion Bites Podcast
This episode featuring Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood is a goldmine for leaders and inclusion professionals seeking actionable and sustainable ways to make inclusion stick within their organisation.
1. Moving from Policy to Habitual Inclusion
🔑 Aha Moment: Inclusion is not a tick-box exercise; it requires embedding everyday habits that build trust, equity of voice, and psychological safety.
Susan Drumm highlights the significance of shifting away from rigid frameworks to fostering inclusive habits at every touchpoint. Leaders should focus less on the policies and more on modelling and rewarding inclusive micro-behaviours.
Action:
Shift team norms to value questioning, curiosity, and alternate viewpoints.
Recognise and celebrate inclusive actions as much as outcomes.
2. The Power of Cognitive Diversity & Blind Spots
👀 Aha Moment: Your team’s biggest potential unlock lies in its cognitive diversity—especially in perspectives you’re currently missing or overlooking. Susan Drumm introduces the Enneagram model to spotlight invisible patterns in teams and blind spots in leadership approaches.
Action:
Audit your team’s decision-making—do homogenous perspectives dominate?
Proactively seek and welcome dissenting voices; recruit or upskill for ‘missing’ leadership styles.
Use tools (like the Enneagram or similar) to map out your team’s cognitive strengths and liabilities.
3. Shift from Resistance to Curiosity
🧠 Aha Moment: The antidote to bias and defensive entrenchment is genuine curiosity; “Anything you resist, you give power,” Susan Drumm reminds us. Instead of instinctively defending your position, ask “What am I missing? Who sees what I do not?”
Action:
Model curiosity by practising open, non-judgemental language in meetings (e.g., “That’s interesting—here’s how I see it. What’s your take?”).
Encourage team members to explore, not avoid, uncomfortable viewpoints.
4. Humanising and Personalising Inclusion Through Music & Neuroscience
🎵 Aha Moment: Rewiring self-limiting or exclusionary beliefs is possible—and can be accelerated by pairing new mindsets with positive emotions and music. Susan Drumm discusses how music can literally ‘reprogramme’ leadership responses and energy.
Action:
Invite leaders and teams to identify their own ‘background music’ (core beliefs) and intentionally choose new ones aligned with inclusion.
Use music and emotional reflection as part of leadership and team development workshops.
5. Embracing Authenticity in the Age of AI & Change
🤖 Aha Moment: As AI becomes more integral, empathy and authenticity become the differentiators for leadership. There’s a risk of reinforcing one’s existing beliefs with agreeable technology—leaders must challenge themselves and each other to seek out what they don’t know, with both empathy accuracy (understanding) and empathy compassion (caring).
Action:
Prioritise development of accurate empathy skills in your team—ability to understand and care about other perspectives.
Utilise AI with intention and maintain human authenticity at the core (don’t let technology take over the critical inclusive conversations).
Synthesis for Practice:
Senior Leaders, HR and EDI professionals must go beyond frameworks and initiatives; it’s about intentionally modelling, enabling, and rewarding the daily habits that allow every voice to be heard and valued. True inclusion is achieved not by changing others, but by first shifting one’s own mindset, patterns, and approach to curiosity and belonging.
#InclusionHabits #CognitiveDiversity #EmpathyInLeadership #HumanCentredChange #InclusionBitesPodcast
Shorts Video Script
Social Media Title:
Why Inclusion Fails—And What Actually Works #Inclusion #Leadership #Neuroscience
Hashtags:
#Inclusion #Belonging #Leadership #Teamwork #Neuroscience
[Text on screen: “🔎 Uncovering Blind Spots”]
Have you ever wondered why some organisations talk about inclusion, but nothing truly changes? The truth is, inclusion only sticks when we start spotting the invisible patterns that run our teams—and ourselves. It's all about identifying our blind spots and recognising what we don't see and how that affects our decisions and relationships.
[Text on screen: “🤝 Curiosity Over Resistance”]
Here's the shift: any time we double down and resist opposing views, we give those perspectives more power. The real key is curiosity—asking why someone thinks differently and what they're motivated by. Instead of getting stuck in entrenched positions, we grow when we get genuinely curious about others' viewpoints.
[Text on screen: “🧠 Everyday Inclusive Habits”]
Inclusion isn't a one-off workshop. It’s about embedding inclusive habits daily—like reflecting on whose voices are missing on your team or who always brings a different perspective. Invite and value those differences. Because the best decisions are made not when everyone agrees, but when there’s healthy debate and diverse input.
[Text on screen: “🎶 Rewire Your Mindset”]
Breaking old thinking patterns takes more than willpower. Music can actually help rewire your neural pathways. Next time you catch yourself stuck in an unhelpful story—like “I’m excluded” or “No one understands me”—create a new playlist that shifts your mood and outlook. Use music intentionally to move beyond old limitations.
[Text on screen: “🌱 Practical Actions”]
Recognise your blind spots and identify who in your team sees what you might miss.
Replace resistance with genuine curiosity.
Make space for all perspectives—especially the challenging ones.
Reinforce new, positive patterns with music and intentional practice.
If we all started each day asking, “What am I missing?” and “Whose voice needs to be heard?”, imagine the change we could create.
Thanks for watching! Remember, together we can make a difference. Stay connected, stay inclusive! See you next time. ✨
Glossary of Terms and Phrases
- **Enneagram**
A systems model featuring nine different leadership styles or types, each with unique motivations, superpowers, and liabilities, used to understand team dynamics and individual blind spots.
- **Cognitive Diversity**
The inclusion of people who have different styles of thinking, perspectives, viewpoints, and information processing within a team, going beyond surface-level diversity (such as gender or ethnicity).
- **Blind Spot**
Refers to aspects of self, team dynamics, or organisational culture that individuals or teams cannot see themselves but might be more visible to others because of their unique focus or perspective.
- **Superpower**
In this context, a personal or leadership strength developed from habitual patterns of focus and behaviour, which can be both an asset and a liability.
- **Voice Equity**
Ensuring that all individuals within a group or team have an equal opportunity to contribute and be heard, thereby facilitating more robust and inclusive decision-making.
- **Empathy Accuracy**
The skill of accurately recognising and understanding another person’s perspective or feelings, which is distinguishable from simply caring about them.
- **Empathy Compassion**
The willingness and ability not only to understand but also to genuinely care about another person’s perspective or experience.
- **Leadership Playlist**
A metaphor introduced by Susan Drumm that refers to internal patterns or ‘tracks’ (beliefs and emotional responses) that can unconsciously shape a person’s leadership identity and interactions, as well as the literal use of music to shift mindset and behaviour.
- **Neuroscience of Change**
The study and application of how the brain’s wiring influences behavioural change, particularly relevant for embedding new, more inclusive habits at leadership and organisational levels.
- **Peripheral Vision (metaphorical)**
Used to describe the limited focus humans naturally have, highlighting that what is outside our focus can be unseen but crucial, especially in understanding broader team dynamics and inclusion.
- **Self-Imposed Limits**
The unconscious patterns or beliefs that constrain an individual’s behaviour and choices, frequently rooted in past experiences or habitual thinking.
- **Cultural Shift**
A significant transformation in the shared beliefs, values, and practices within a team or organisation, often required for meaningful and sustainable progress in inclusion.
- **Curiosity (as an antidote to resistance)**
A recommended stance of openness to differing perspectives and motivations, contrasted with becoming more entrenched in one’s own resistant (and exclusive) beliefs.
- **360 Model**
An approach involving comprehensive feedback from all directions—often peers, subordinates, and supervisors—to illuminate blind spots and support personal and team development.
- **Pattern Interrupt (via music or otherwise)**
A technique for disrupting deeply ingrained behaviours or emotional reactions—in this episode, music is specifically cited as a tool to help leaders break out of unhelpful emotional or cognitive patterns.
SEO Optimised YouTube Content
Focus Keyword: Culture Change
Video Title:
How to Ignite Real Culture Change in Your Organisation | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags:
Culture Change, Positive People Experiences, Inclusion, Diversity, Belonging, Leadership Transformation, Inclusive Habits, Equity, Organisational Change, Team Blind Spots, High Performance Teams, Neuroscience, The Enneagram, Leadership Coaching, Inclusive Language, Habit Change, Workplace Culture, Breaking Patterns, Authentic Leadership, Employee Engagement, Team Growth, Inclusion In Action, SEE Change Happen, Joanne Lockwood, Susan Drumm
Killer Quote:
"My superpower is spotting the invisible patterns that quietly run teams and translating complex neuroscience into simple, repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspective and make space for every voice." – Susan Drumm
Hashtags:
#CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #Inclusion, #Belonging, #Leadership, #Equity, #InclusionBites, #TeamGrowth, #Neuroscience, #SEEChangeHappen, #LeadershipDevelopment, #OrganisationalCulture, #InclusionPodcast, #DiversityMatters, #InclusionChampions, #InclusiveLeadership, #ChangeMaker, #PeopleFirst, #AuthenticLeadership, #InclusiveCulture
Why Listen
Welcome to this special episode of Inclusion Bites Podcast, where I’m joined by Susan Drumm to unpack what really drives Culture Change and delivers Positive People Experiences that last. If you’re passionate about inclusion and longing to create a workplace where everyone’s voice matters and thrives, you’re in for a treat – because we get real about breaking patterns, shifting mindsets, and embedding habits that make inclusion stick far beyond the buzzwords.
Susan, a renowned leadership advisor and coach, brings a unique perspective shaped by her superpower: the ability to spot the hidden patterns in teams and translate the complexity of neuroscience into practical, everyday habits. We’re not here for theoretical or surface-level jargon – we dive deep into the science and soul of transforming organisations.
Have you ever wondered why some culture change initiatives seem to fizzle out, or why well-intentioned diversity drives get stuck? In this conversation, we turn the lens on blind spots – not just in individuals, but across teams and the whole organisation. Susan explains how our focus, shaped by our lived experiences and internal narratives, narrows what we see and influences every interaction. Yet, by learning to recognise and appreciate these blind spots, especially when they are challenged by colleagues with differing perspectives, the path to genuine culture change opens up.
One of the highlights of this episode is our exploration of the Enneagram, an open-source model describing nine leadership styles rooted in motivation and focus. Susan demonstrates how harnessing a mix of these leadership types brings cognitive diversity into play – not just diversity you can see, but diversity of thought and behaviour. Through vivid examples, you’ll discover how teams benefit from missing or underrepresented perspectives and the dangers of groupthink when a single type dominates.
We discuss strategies for identifying patterns that hold us and our teams back, from language that excludes, to habitual responses under pressure, to ‘old playlists’ – the beliefs that unconsciously govern our reactions at work. You’ll hear how music, both figurative and literal, can be used to interrupt those old narratives and prompt new, empowering ones. Susan brings to life stories of leaders who have turned exclusion or imposter syndrome into new strengths, simply by tuning into new internal ‘soundtracks’.
We also discuss the role of authenticity in a world increasingly shaped by AI and automation. With technology making it harder to discern what’s real, being true to yourself and others – and embracing genuine, open communication – becomes the new competitive edge. We explore tools for self-awareness, empathy accuracy, and empathy compassion, all essential for leading in times of complex change.
Some critical questions we tackle together:
How can leaders future-proof their organisations to be more inclusive and adaptable?
What does it take to embed culture change so that it becomes second nature?
How do we leverage blind spots and turn workplace friction into growth?
Why are Positive People Experiences central to both performance and happiness?
What practical steps can teams and leaders take today to build trust and make space for every voice?
Whether you’re a founder, HR professional, manager, or change champion, you’ll walk away with a toolkit of concrete insights: from using the Enneagram to boost inclusion, to building routines that honour each person’s unique contribution, and nurturing a feedback-rich environment where curiosity trumps resistance.
Above all, this episode is for those who want to do more than talk about culture change – you’ll learn how to lead it from the inside out. Through engaging stories, actionable frameworks, and empowering language, you’ll discover how to move from intention to every day, habit-driven inclusion. Get ready to join a community committed to Positive People Experiences and to stepping boldly into a more inclusive future.
Closing Summary and Call to Action
Reflecting on this transformative conversation, here are the actionable insights and key messages you can take away to drive real Culture Change and embed Positive People Experiences in your organisation:
1. Recognise Your Blind Spots
Understand that every individual and team operates with invisible blind spots shaped by habits, upbringing, and motivation.
Use tools like the Enneagram to map out and appreciate the cognitive diversity within your team.
Actively seek perspectives that challenge your own – those who trigger you are often your greatest teachers.
2. Value Cognitive Diversity Alongside Visual Diversity
Building teams with different leadership styles and thinking patterns leads to better decisions, mitigates risk, and spurs innovation.
Notice which leadership perspectives are missing. If certain types are absent, compensate by giving space to those questions and viewpoints in group decision-making.
3. Language Matters: Build Inclusivity Through Words and Actions
Replace dismissive language with curiosity-driven, inclusive phrases – e.g., “That’s interesting, I’ve viewed it this way. What’s your perspective?”
Train your team in the art of inclusive communication, starting with less divisive topics before progressing to the tough ones.
4. Challenge and Upgrade Your Internal Playlist
Identify the beliefs, narratives, or ‘songs’ you subconsciously play in key moments.
Use music as both metaphor and practical tool to disrupt unhelpful thinking patterns – make an empowering playlist that reflects the leader you aspire to be.
Lead by example: show how you move from “I am excluded” to “I bring peace and appreciation.”
5. Foster Empathy as a Core Leadership and Team Skill
Begin with empathy accuracy (understanding another’s perspective) and develop empathy compassion (caring about that perspective).
Learn from feedback and use moments of discord as opportunities for group and self-development.
Recognise that as automation rises, these people-centred skills become invaluable.
6. Build Authenticity in a Distracted, AI-Fuelled World
Anchor yourself in self-awareness and inner wisdom. Pause, reflect, and check in with your intuition.
Champion honesty, vulnerability, and authentic leadership amongst your peers.
Question assumptions and be sceptical of easy digital answers – seek genuine connection.
7. Operationalise Inclusion: Make it Habitual
Embed inclusion into routines – make space for ‘missing voices’ in every agenda and check who’s not being heard.
Make inclusion tangible through daily actions, from inviting new perspectives to iterating your meeting formats for broader participation.
Track organisational habits – what’s rewarded and repeated becomes your true culture.
8. Prioritise Psychological Safety
Create space for all teammates to express contrary opinions and raise concerns without fear.
Model and reward curiosity-driven leadership rather than resistance-based rigidity.
Remember: “What you resist, persists.” Openness fuels growth.
9. Keep Personal Growth Central
Invest in your own leadership development through ongoing feedback, reflection, and learning.
Explore assessments and coaching that are science-based – go beyond surface-level tools.
Encourage others to join you in building a habit of self-inquiry.
10. Join the Inclusion Bites Community
Follow the podcast, share this episode, and start conversations in your organisation about what real Culture Change and Positive People Experiences look like.
Stay open, stay curious, and remember that every act of inclusion is a step towards a more vibrant, innovative, and thriving workplace.
Ready to take the next bite? Visit susandrum.com for your free superpower and liability quiz, and connect with leaders worldwide on the ‘Enlightened Executive’ podcast. Continue the journey at SEE Change Happen and keep building a world where inclusion truly sticks.
Outro
Thank you for tuning in to Inclusion Bites Podcast. Your time and curiosity fuel this movement toward authentic Culture Change and truly Positive People Experiences. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, and share – it helps us spread the word and challenge the status quo one bold conversation at a time.
For more information and to get involved, visit:
SEE Change Happen: https://seechangehappen.co.uk
The Inclusion Bites Podcast: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive – Joanne Lockwood
Root Cause Analyst - Why!
Certainly. Let’s conduct a root cause analysis on the central problems related to embedding inclusion within organisations, as explored in the Inclusion Bites episode "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" with Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood.
Key Problem Identified:
Despite strong intentions and initiatives, inclusion often fails to "stick" within organisations, leading to persistent blind spots, entrenched team conflicts, and low engagement from diverse perspectives.
1. Why does inclusion fail to embed sustainably in organisations?
Because many teams and leaders operate with unchecked blind spots, habitual thinking patterns, and a lack of ongoing curiosity towards differing perspectives.
2. Why do teams and leaders struggle with unchecked blind spots and rigid thinking patterns?
Because teams tend to hire, promote, and collaborate with those similar to themselves, fostering a comfort zone and reinforcing existing cognitive and cultural biases. This prevents exposure to alternative viewpoints and reinforces the status quo.
3. Why do organisations gravitate towards similarity and maintain the status quo?
Because underlying organisational systems, performance incentives, and even neuroscience-driven habits value short-term harmony and operational efficiency over challenge, curiosity, and constructive friction. People naturally avoid discomfort, and diverse perspectives often introduce uncertainty or perceived inefficiency.
4. Why are organisational systems and incentives not designed to support and reward cognitive diversity and constructive disagreement?
Because legacy leadership models, recruitment practices, and team development tools historically prioritised "culture fit" and technical skill over inclusive behaviours, voice equity, and the active development of empathy across differences. The systemic focus has been on measurable outputs, not on the nuanced processes that drive diversity of thought.
5. Why have legacy models prioritised output over inclusive process?
Because there is a deep-rooted belief, both culturally and systemically, that performance and success correlate most strongly with rapid decision-making, conformity, and replicable behaviours – rather than embracing complexity, learning from discomfort, or harnessing differentiated thinking for adaptive performance.
Summary of Findings (Root Cause Statement):
The root cause lies in entrenched organisational cultures and systems that reward conformity, efficiency, and technical output, whilst under-valuing the slow, sometimes uncomfortable process of building trust, exploring blind spots, and embedding inclusive habits. This is compounded by a lack of tools or frameworks for cultivating curiosity, empathy, and appreciation for cognitive and experiential diversity. Consequently, attempts at inclusion are often bolted on, not built in.
Potential Solutions:
Systemic Reward Redesign: Adjust incentives and recognition systems to explicitly value curiosity, constructive challenge, and diverse thinking—embedding inclusive habits, not just inclusive rhetoric.
Literacy and Awareness Building: Use models such as the Enneagram (as described by Susan Drumm) to illuminate invisible patterns, create language for inclusion, and encourage self-reflection amongst leaders and teams.
Deliberate Team Composition: Identify cognitive and experiential gaps and consciously build teams that counterbalance their collective blind spots—this may include recruiting for “missing voices” and rotating roles to disrupt entrenched groupthink.
Inclusive Dialogue Training: Develop and practise inclusive language, empathy accuracy, and empathy compassion, enabling team members to engage with difference without defensiveness or entrenchment.
Process Safeguards: Institutionalise mechanisms for “slowing down” before decisions, including mandatory “what if” sessions and structured challenge moments, to ensure all perspectives are surfaced and considered.
Ongoing Support and Leadership Development: Provide continuous, neuroscience-informed leadership coaching, focusing on habit transformation, intuitive self-inquiry, and the intentional creation of new cognitive “playlists”.
In conclusion, sustainable inclusion is not a tick-box or static state but a dynamic process, requiring not just policy but a cultural and systemic rewiring of what organisations reward, notice, and nurture at every level. Only through intentional, ongoing efforts can inclusion truly “stick”.
Canva Slider Checklist
Episode Carousel
Slide 1:
✨ What if your team’s biggest opportunity is hidden in the blind spots you’re not seeing?
Slide 2:
🔎 Susan Drumm reveals how “superpowers” and “liabilities” shape leaders—and why the voices you resist might be your greatest growth allies.
Slide 3:
🧠 Discover why building cognitive diversity isn’t just a buzzword. The Enneagram helps teams unlock fresh perspectives, challenge “the way it is,” and make better decisions.
Slide 4:
🎵 Ever thought music could rewire your leadership mindset? Susan Drumm shares how the playlists in your head (and headphones) can break old patterns and spark new breakthroughs.
Slide 5:
Ready to make inclusion stick, not just tick boxes?
🎧 Tap the link to listen to this powerful episode of Inclusion Bites with Susan Drumm & Joanne Lockwood: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#InclusionBites #CognitiveDiversity #Leadership #InclusionMatters
6 major topics
Inclusion That Actually Sticks: Six Insights from My Conversation with Susan Drumm
When I sat down with Susan Drumm, it was clear from the outset that our shared mission for genuine inclusion was about more than box-ticking exercises. This conversation journeyed through leadership, neuroscience, diversity, and practical tools, always with an unwavering focus on how inclusion can truly stick and ripple across organisations. If you’re eager to create an environment where everyone feels they belong and are empowered to thrive, these reflections will ignite your thinking. Allow me to unpack the pivotal topics we explored in our deep-dive on inclusion and belonging.
Spotting Invisible Patterns: The Real Work of Inclusive Leadership
From the start, Susan’s superpower – identifying the invisible patterns that drive teams – immediately resonated with me. She explained how we all develop habitual ‘focus points’, almost tunnel vision, and in doing so, we miss what sits in our blind spots. This is vital to understanding inclusion, because if we operate without intentional curiosity, these blind spots foster exclusion, missed innovation, and poor decisions.
What struck me strongly was Susan’s assertion that those we often find the most ‘triggering’ or challenging are precisely the ones we stand to learn the most from. Are you brave enough to invite the perspectives that unsettle you? Leadership is seldom about comfort; it’s about breaking self-imposed limits and welcoming difference. This curiosity is the bedrock of any culture of belonging.
Curiosity over Resistance: Making Differences a Source of Growth
One of the recurring themes was the need to choose curiosity over resistance. It’s so easy to ‘grip’ our own beliefs, especially when challenged. Yet, as Susan and I discussed, resistance is the enemy of change and inclusion.
I asked myself, what happens if, instead of doubling down on my viewpoint, I genuinely wonder about someone else’s perspective? Susan offered neat tips here, including language that draws others in (“That’s interesting, I’ve always seen it this way… what do you think?”). The most inclusive leaders aren’t afraid of difference; they use it as fuel for creativity and growth. Too often, we interpret others’ motives through our own lens. The power comes from suspending that lens and truly seeking to understand.
Cognitive Diversity and High-Performance Teams: Enter the Enneagram
Susan introduced the Enneagram as a transformative tool for cultivating cognitive diversity, an essential ingredient for belonging and optimal decision-making. There are, she described, nine distinct leadership styles, each with inherent strengths and liabilities. Seeing these play out in teams, it becomes clear when one perspective dominates and key viewpoints are missing.
My curiosity was piqued: What might an organisation look like if it intentionally sought out those 'missing pieces' in their leadership puzzle? How can we ensure that dissenting voices aren’t shut down but harnessed for better, more robust decisions? I challenge you to reflect: who’s not at your table, not just demographically but in patterns of thought?
Empathy, Neuroscience, and the Age of AI: Humanity as the Edge
Another rich avenue in our discussion revolved around empathy, seen through the lens of neuroscience. Susan spoke about two axes – empathy accuracy (can I understand your perspective?) and empathy compassion (do I care about that perspective?). In a world ever more reliant on AI, these deeply human capacities become our most distinctive ‘edge’.
Yet, there’s a catch: will AI, in its effort to be ‘empathetic’, simply reinforce our own biases and echo chambers? As I pondered this with Susan, it became strikingly clear – our authenticity and ability to question, to be soulfully curious, is more critical than ever. Real inclusion thrives when leaders check their internal compass as much as any algorithmic prompt.
The Leader’s Playlist: Harnessing Music to Rewire Inclusive Mindsets
One surprise in our exchange was Susan’s use of music as a literal and figurative tool for mindset transformation. By uncovering the soundtrack running unconsciously in our minds – the old beliefs that trip us up – we can use intentional music choices to interrupt limiting patterns and create new narratives. The example of shifting from “I am excluded” to “I bring peace and appreciation” using personalised playlists fascinates me.
What song is on repeat in your leadership story? If you want to foster belonging, perhaps it’s time to pick a new anthem for your mornings.
Generational and Demographic Diversity: Stereotypes and the Spectrum of Leadership Styles
Susan and I didn’t shy away from examining whether gender, age, or background play into leadership styles. The Enneagram, as she shared, transcends these constructs, reflecting motivations rather than stereotypes. In her experience, certain leadership types are more common at executive levels, while others, like the intensely creative ‘Type 4’, are rare ‘rocking horse poo’ – yet vital for meaning and vision.
My call-out is this: beyond gender and generation, what are the rare perspectives your team desperately needs? Are you bold enough to seek out the ‘unicorns’ who will amplify purpose and belonging?
Belonging is the Key
The quest for belonging and inclusion isn’t a static objective. It’s alive, ever-changing, and demanding new levels of curiosity, humility, and courage from us all. Reflecting on this conversation, I’m more convinced than ever that true belonging requires seeing our blind spots, harnessing diverse perspectives, and creating the conditions for each person to bring their full self. If you’re ready to move beyond stale inclusion exercises, now’s the moment to tune into your team’s hidden patterns, play a new leadership playlist, and let curiosity be your guide.
Curious to go deeper on cultivating belonging with your teams? Drop me a line at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk or explore more change-driving conversations here: Inclusion Bites Listen. Because when belonging sticks, so does change.
TikTok Summary
Ready to transform your approach to inclusion—and make it really stick? 🔥 In this episode of Inclusion Bites, leadership expert Susan Drumm and host Joanne Lockwood crack open the secrets to spotting team blind spots, building real trust, and harnessing the power of music and neuroscience to change mindsets for good. Curious about unlocking cognitive diversity, empathy, and the habits that help everyone thrive? 🎶✨
Don’t just talk about inclusion—live it. Catch the full convo now at 👉 https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#InclusionBites #InclusionThatSticks #Belonging #DEI #Leadership #PodcastClips
Slogans and Image Prompts
Certainly! Here are memorable slogans, soundbites, and quotes from this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast (“Inclusion That Actually Sticks”). Each comes with a detailed AI image generation prompt, perfect for creating distinctive merchandise or crafting a hashtag campaign.
1. Slogan:
"Ignite the Spark of Inclusion"
Image Generation Prompt:
A stylised illustration of a glowing sparkler or firework in a diverse hand, igniting in a burst of vivid colours (representing different identities and backgrounds). Use a clean, modern vector style with bold, friendly lettering. Background should be soft gradients, evoking warmth and optimism.
Hashtag:
#IgniteInclusion
2. Soundbite:
"Expand Your Perspective, Empower Every Voice"
Image Generation Prompt:
A dynamic design of overlapping speech bubbles in vibrant colours, some emerging from behind others to symbolise voices coming to the forefront. Central bubble contains the words in bold, approachable type. The edges feature subtle icons representing dialogue (ears, mouths, people icons). Set on a clean white background for apparel/stationery.
Hashtag:
#EmpowerEveryVoice
3. Quote:
"Curiosity is the Bridge to Belonging" — Susan Drumm
Image Generation Prompt:
A serene, open bridge spanning from one side, diverse silhouettes stand together; misty landscape evokes possibility in the distance. Over the bridge, the quote in elegant, hand-lettered script. Use gentle, hopeful colours: sky blues, sunrise oranges, with details that suggest connectedness.
Hashtag:
#CuriosityToBelonging
4. Slogan:
"Inclusion That Sticks"
Image Generation Prompt:
A playful sticker-sheet motif: icons of sticky notes, pins, and name tags, each containing emojis or small positive doodles (hearts, stars, handshakes). Centre one note that reads “Inclusion That Sticks” in quirky, handwritten type. Flat design style with fun, inviting colours.
Hashtag:
#InclusionThatSticks
5. Quote/Soundbite:
"Authenticity: The Currency for a New Tomorrow" — Susan Drumm
Image Generation Prompt:
A striking image of a bright coin or token with a fingerprint at its centre, set against a backdrop of an ethereal sunrise. The words wrap around the coin. Use metallic textures and sunrise warm hues. Text is modern sans-serif, suggesting confidence and new beginnings.
Hashtag:
#AuthenticityCurrency
6. Soundbite:
"Challenge, Inspire, Unite"
Image Generation Prompt:
Three hands (different skin tones) interlocking at the centre, each hand labelled with “Challenge”, “Inspire”, and “Unite.” Rays of light emanate from their meeting point. Bold, sans-serif type beneath the hands. The palette is empowering: deep blues, bright golds, and fresh greens.
Hashtag:
#ChallengeInspireUnite
7. Quote:
"Move Through Resistance with Curiosity" — Susan Drumm
Image Generation Prompt:
A stylised maze scene where a person with a torch (light of curiosity) brightly illuminates a path through a twisting hedge, the word “Curiosity” glowing ahead. Engaging, storybook illustration style; deep greens, sunny light, friendly character design.
Hashtag:
#CuriosityOverResistance
8. Slogan:
"High-Performance Teams are Cognitively Diverse Teams"
Image Generation Prompt:
A vibrant puzzle with pieces in different shapes and shades, interlocking perfectly. On each piece, a smiling face, symbolising diversity of thought. Centre features the slogan in crisp, modern print. Background is a gradient blue, symbolising high performance.
Hashtag:
#CognitiveDiversity
9. Soundbite:
"Real Inclusion is Action, Not Just Intention"
Image Generation Prompt:
Silhouettes collaboratively building a mural or puzzle. The mural spells out the phrase. Artistic style blends flat, inviting colours (pale teal, ochre, coral) with bold typography for clear visibility. Warm and forward-looking.
Hashtag:
#InclusionInAction
10. Quote:
"Shift Your Playlist, Change Your Story"
(Inspired by the music and leadership narrative)
Image Generation Prompt:
A vintage cassette tape unraveling into vibrant, illustrated music notes. The notes morph into diverse human figures dancing and connecting together. Slogan sits along the tape in flowing hand-lettering. Bright, energetic palette: purples, oranges, teals.
Hashtag:
#ChangeYourStory
Feel free to adapt these to your merchandise or social campaign. Each phrase encapsulates the spirit of Inclusion Bites—challenging, inspiring, and uniting toward real change.
Inclusion Bites Spotlight
Leadership consultant and advisor Susan Drumm joins us for Episode 209 of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, "Inclusion That Actually Sticks", unveiling the art of embedding inclusion deep within the fabric of organisational culture. Known for her remarkable ability to spot hidden team dynamics and translate complex neuroscience into actionable, inclusive habits, Susan Drumm illuminates why inclusion cannot survive as surface-level rhetoric—it must become part of the everyday experience.
In conversation with host Joanne Lockwood, Susan Drumm shares a powerful vision: moving beyond compliance and check-the-box strategies to foster environments where every voice is both heard and valued. Drawing on models such as the Enneagram, she discusses the merits of cognitively diverse teams and the systemic thinking required to harness our differences as genuine strengths. By helping leaders and teams map their “blind spots” and develop curiosity over resistance, she demonstrates how self-awareness and open dialogue can drive higher trust, better decisions, and authentic belonging.
Susan Drumm also introduces her innovative use of music and neuroscience to reframe ingrained patterns of thinking, offering practical insights on how leaders can shift team dynamics and individual mindsets alike. Her approach reinforces that real inclusion isn't about having all the answers, but rather about cultivating empathy, challenging assumptions, and continuously learning from perspectives unlike our own.
This episode stands as a rallying call for those committed to transformational inclusion and meaningful cultural change. Whether you’re an HR professional, DEI advocate, or people leader, Susan Drumm’s expertise will inspire you to question the status quo and to build habitual, human-centred strategies for equity and voice in your organisation.
Listen to "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" for pragmatic wisdom and bold strategies—because inclusion, done properly, is not a project; it’s a practice that makes workplaces, and the world, richer for everyone.
YouTube Description
YouTube Description:
What if inclusion isn’t just a buzzword, but the competitive edge your organisation has been missing?
In this game-changing episode of Inclusion Bites, host Joanne Lockwood sits down with leadership advisor and coach Susan Drumm to dismantle the myths around inclusive cultures and reveal “Inclusion That Actually Sticks.” This isn’t a conversation about token gestures—it's about real psychological shifts, practical tools, and the neuroscience behind cultivating truly high-performing teams.
Discover how to spot invisible patterns that impact team dynamics, why blind spots hold back decision-making, and how methods like the Enneagram can unlock the unique superpowers within your workplace. Learn the power of curiosity, open dialogue, and the importance of building cognitively diverse teams. Susan Drumm shares actionable guidance on making inclusive habits second nature, from reframing conflict to harnessing music as a tool for transformation.
Key Insights:
Inclusion is a business imperative, not a side project.
Diverse thinking drives better decisions—intentional team design is essential.
Neuroscience-backed tools like the Enneagram help break bias and build trust.
Empathy, curiosity, and open communication are foundational to sustainable inclusion.
Leaders must unlearn old patterns and embrace authentic ways of seeing themselves and their teams.
Listen and walk away ready to:
Challenge your default thinking and welcome alternative perspectives.
Apply practical exercises to strengthen team trust and accountability.
Reframe conflict as an opportunity for growth rather than division.
Let go of self-imposed limitations and take concrete steps towards cultural change.
Every listener will think more critically about team habits, feel inspired to interrupt limiting patterns, and act with renewed intention to embed inclusion deeply into everyday practices.
Tune in and ignite positive change where it counts most—within yourself and your organisation.
#InclusionBites #InclusiveLeadership #DiversityAndInclusion #NeuroscienceOfTeams #WorkplaceCulture #BelongingAtWork #TeamPerformance #EmpathyAtWork #UnconsciousBias #ChangeMakers
Connect and share your thoughts: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Join the movement: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
10 Question Quiz
Certainly! Here is a 10-question multiple choice quiz based solely on the contributions of Joanne Lockwood as host, as per the episode "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" from the Inclusion Bites Podcast. The questions relate directly to the episode’s content and the overall theme of building sustainable inclusion.
Inclusion That Actually Sticks: Quiz
1. What key atmosphere does Joanne Lockwood aim to create for listeners of the Inclusion Bites podcast?
A) Competitive spirit
B) Sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change
C) Technical training
D) Light entertainment
2. According to Joanne Lockwood, what is Inclusion Bites primarily about?
A) HR policy updates
B) Uncovering the unseen and challenging the status quo
C) Sharing company success stories
D) Financial advice
3. How does Joanne Lockwood encourage interaction from listeners?
A) Mailing in written responses only
B) Attending live events
C) Reaching out via email to share insights or join the show
D) Leaving website comments
4. What does Joanne Lockwood propose as a way to foster inclusion?
A) Only inviting executives to conversations
B) Connecting, reflecting, and inspiring action as a community
C) Following rigid formal rules
D) Starting with highly divisive conversations
5. In referencing workplace patterns and perspectives, what essential skill does Joanne Lockwood believe supports inclusive cultures?
A) Ignoring challenges
B) Siloed expertise
C) Being open to alternate points of view
D) Prioritising speed over understanding
6. What did Joanne Lockwood suggest as a practical approach before tackling the most divisive workplace issues?
A) Avoiding all challenging discussions
B) Building skillset with easier conversations first
C) Appointing a single voice for all decisions
D) Immediately debating polarising topics
7. When discussing the value of team composition, what did Joanne Lockwood highlight?
A) Conforming to one style
B) The need for all teams to be identical
C) The benefit of having varied perspectives for balanced decision-making
D) The elimination of opposing views
8. What is the "worlds apart" reference used by Joanne Lockwood intended to demonstrate?
A) How limited resources can divide teams
B) How sharing personal stories can reveal common ground
C) How technology replaces human interaction
D) That debates must always end in consensus
9. Regarding leadership and influence, what barrier does Joanne Lockwood identify as common among business professionals?
A) A lack of professional qualifications
B) Imposter syndrome and fear of speaking up
C) Excessive use of technology
D) Over-delegation
10. At the conclusion, what call to action does Joanne Lockwood offer to listeners?
A) Remain passive and listen
B) Subscribe to Inclusion Bites and share its message
C) Focus solely on individual development
D) Engage only if required by management
Answer Key with Rationales
B) Sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change
Rationale: Joanne Lockwood explicitly welcomes listeners to Inclusion Bites as their "sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change".B) Uncovering the unseen and challenging the status quo
Rationale: The host describes the podcast as a space to "uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within."C) Reaching out via email to share insights or join the show
Rationale: Joanne Lockwood invites listeners to email her at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk "to share your insights or to join me on the show."B) Connecting, reflecting, and inspiring action as a community
Rationale: Joanne Lockwood asks listeners to "connect, reflect and inspire action together," emphasising collective progress.C) Being open to alternate points of view
Rationale: The host discusses the importance of balancing perspectives and the dangers of entrenching oneself without considering others.B) Building skillset with easier conversations first
Rationale: Joanne Lockwood agrees with the guest on the value of starting with less divisive conversations and building up the skill set.C) The benefit of having varied perspectives for balanced decision-making
Rationale: The host engages with the idea that different team members bring critical viewpoints, supporting higher performance.B) How sharing personal stories can reveal common ground
Rationale: "Worlds Apart" is referenced as a powerful tool to show that, beneath differences, people have more in common than they initially perceive.B) Imposter syndrome and fear of speaking up
Rationale: Joanne Lockwood describes these as recurring issues within her consulting community, resonating across leadership levels.B) Subscribe to Inclusion Bites and share its message
Rationale: In closing, the host calls listeners to "subscribe to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community... share this journey with friends, family and colleagues."
Summary Paragraph
In this episode of Inclusion Bites, Joanne Lockwood curates a welcoming space for bold conversations that effect genuine change, centred on uncovering unseen barriers and challenging established norms. She actively encourages her audience to participate by reaching out with insights or even joining the show, fostering a sense of collective reflection and action. Throughout, Joanne Lockwood advocates openness to alternative perspectives and illustrates how inclusion is rooted in varied viewpoints and balanced team dynamics. By suggesting that teams build their confidence through manageable dialogues before facing more contentious issues, she champions a practical, step-wise approach to embedding inclusion. The reference to "Worlds Apart" underscores the power of empathetic storytelling to reveal common ground. Common professional barriers such as imposter syndrome and reluctance to speak up are acknowledged, reinforcing the call for authentic participation. Joanne Lockwood ultimately urges listeners to subscribe and share Inclusion Bites, transforming individual learning into a unified movement for sustained inclusion that truly sticks.
Rhyme Scheme and Rhythm Podcast Poetry
Inclusion That Sticks
In rooms where voices long subdued
Begin to rise, the truth renewed,
It isn’t strength in solitude
But teams where every view’s reviewed.
Patterns run our work and lives,
Invisible, they set the pace;
Yet wisdom comes when thought contrives
To seek what hides behind the face.
Not one alone can see it all—
Blind spots haunt the sharpest mind.
Curiosity must recall:
Let’s learn from those we're least aligned.
There’s music in the way we lead,
Old playlists spinning tales of lack;
Change the tune and plant a seed—
Watch possibility come back.
Bias dulls and silos grow;
The sceptic, challenger, and dreamer too,
When all these voices ebb and flow,
Decisions thrive with each new view.
Empathy—the skill to hone—
Not just to know, but care as well.
AI can parrot thoughtful tone,
But soul and sense are ours to dwell.
So build a team both rich and wide,
See difference not as threat, but gift.
With trust and space, let truth preside,
And old perspective gently lift.
A world where leaders dance and play
Their roles with insight, heart, and grace.
Inclusion isn’t just a day—
It’s habit, rhythm, time and place.
To spark this change, subscribe and share,
Let conversations point the way;
There’s magic found when all prepare
To listen deeply, every day.
With thanks to Susan Drumm for a fascinating podcast episode.
Key Learnings
Key Learning and Takeaway
The central message of this episode is that genuinely embedding inclusion within teams and organisations hinges on understanding and counterbalancing our own and others’ cognitive patterns, motivations, and blind spots. By fostering curiosity over resistance, leveraging tools like the Enneagram, and even using music to interrupt ingrained mental habits, leaders can build more effective, high-trust, and authentically inclusive environments where diverse voices shape better decisions.
Point #1: Inclusion is About More Than Representation
Susan Drumm emphasises that beyond visible diversity, high-performing teams harness cognitive diversity—different ways of processing, motivation, and perception. Recognising the strengths and blind spots in leadership styles allows teams to consciously invite viewpoints that might otherwise go unheard.
Point #2: Curiosity is the Antidote to Entrenched Thinking
Both Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood agree that progress happens when individuals replace resistance to other perspectives with genuine curiosity. Asking why a colleague challenges your thinking, and engaging with their motivation, leads to growth, deeper trust, and innovation instead of in-group stagnation.
Point #3: Sustainable Change Needs Practical Tools
The episode introduces practical frameworks like the Enneagram for mapping team cognitive diversity, as well as the innovative use of music to rewire limiting self-beliefs and habitual mindsets. These tools make the abstract work of inclusion tangible, actionable, and lasting.
Point #4: Our Patterns Are Malleable—but Only if Examined
A recurring theme is that most ‘blocks’ to inclusion are unconscious patterns formed by upbringing, experience, and internal narratives. By surfacing these—sometimes with the help of external assessments or even music—leaders can create conscious new habits that foster belonging and openness at every level.
Book Outline
Book Outline: Inclusion That Actually Sticks: Turning Diversity into Everyday High Performance
Title Suggestions
Inclusion That Actually Sticks: Making Diversity Work Every Day
The Leader’s Playlist: How Inclusive Habits Transform Teams
Seeing the Unseen: Harnessing Neuroscience and Habit for Lasting Inclusion
Inclusion by Design: From Blind Spots to Breakthroughs
Introduction
Establish why inclusion work often fails to stick and the cost of performative diversity.
Present the core proposition: sustainable inclusion comes from embedding new habits, recognising blind spots, and using tools from neuroscience.
Chapter 1 – The Invisible Patterns Behind Teams
Summary:
Unpack why teams succeed or falter by tracing the unconscious patterns that shape group behaviour. Explore the limitations of human perspective, blind spots, and how everyone develops ‘superpowers’—strengths and preferences that inadvertently create liabilities.
Subheadings:
The Myth of the 360-Degree Leader
How Blind Spots Form and Why They Matter
Harnessing Others’ Perspectives for Growth
Case Study: Spotting Patterns that Hold Leaders Back
Relevant Example/Quote:
“We think we’re chameleons, but we can’t see 360 degrees... Where we point our focus is what we see. There’s always something behind our heads.”
Interactive Element:
Reflection exercise: Identify one professional ‘superpower’ and ask a peer what they think your blind spot might be.
Chapter 2 – Curiosity over Resistance: The Skillset for Inclusive Dialogue
Summary:
Introduce the notion of moving from defensive entrenchment to open conversation. Outline why resistance grows when we try to ‘win’, and how curiosity creates space for new perspectives.
Subheadings:
The Dangers of Gripping to Belief
Curiosity as the Antidote to Entrenchment
Conversational Tools for Building Trust
The Energy of Language: Why “Tell Me More” Works
Baby Steps: Beginning with Less Divisive Topics
Quote to Use:
“Anything you resist, you give it power... The answer is curiosity.”
Interactive Element:
Practical script: Words and phrases to foster curiosity in team discussions.
Chapter 3 – Cognitive Diversity: Building Teams that Outperform
Summary:
Explore why diversity is about mindset, not just demographics. Show how understanding the motivations and perspectives within a team broadens collective capacity and decision quality.
Subheadings:
Moving Beyond Demographics: What is Cognitive Diversity?
The Power of Complementary Blind Spots
Making Space for the Sceptic: Harnessing Challenge
Recognising When Your Team’s Perspective is Too Narrow
Example:
If a team is missing a “loyal sceptic”, decisions may go unchallenged—schedule time for risk assessment.
Visual Aid Suggestion:
Diagram of the nine Enneagram types mapped against typical team functions.
Chapter 4 – The Enneagram: A Neuroscientific Tool for Inclusion
Summary:
Introduce the Enneagram as a respected model for illuminating leadership styles, superpowers, and liabilities. Illustrate how it fosters empathy and more intentional team composition.
Subheadings:
What is the Enneagram and Why It Works
Nine Types, Nine Ways of Seeing the World
Mapping Blind Spots and Filling Leadership Gaps
The Science: Linking Patterns to Neuroscience
Quote to Use:
“They’re actually finding deep connections with neuroscience related to the Enneagram... you see the gaps on your team.”
Further Reading:
Suggested books and links to reliable Enneagram assessments.
Chapter 5 – Empathy in Action: Developing the Critical Human Skills for the AI Era
Summary:
Argue that as automation grows, empathy accuracy and compassion become the critical differentiators in leadership and team dynamics.
Subheadings:
Empathy Accuracy vs. Empathy Compassion
The Decline of Human Connection in a Digital Age
How AI can Reinforce Bias, and How to Counteract It
Tools and Assessments for Measuring Empathy
Quote:
“The skills that are uniquely human—empathy accuracy and empathy compassion—are going to be needed more than ever.”
Interactive Element:
Self-assessment: Empathy skills inventory.
Chapter 6 – Interrupting Patterns through Music (and Metaphor)
Summary:
Present an innovative route to change: using music to surface, shift, and entrench new mindsets. Introduce the concept of the “Leader’s Playlist”.
Subheadings:
How Music Builds New Neural Pathways
Identifying the ‘Playlist’ Holding You Back
From ‘I am Excluded’ to ‘I Bring Peace and Appreciation’
Case Example: Shifting Identity, Shifting Outcome
Relevant Example:
“Every time the song ‘Hello’ by Adele played, she’d recognise her old exclusion narrative. A new playlist helped her reframe her identity at work.”
Exercise:
Curate your own playlist to shift an unhelpful workplace belief.
Chapter 7 – Embedding Inclusion: From Insight to Everyday Habit
Summary:
Show how real organisational change happens not just through epiphany but consistent habit-building and creating the conditions for self-discovery.
Subheadings:
Why ‘One and Done’ Workshops Don’t Stick
Creating Spaces for Ongoing Reflection and Challenge
Practical Strategies: Rituals, Reminders, Peer Accountability
The Role of Authenticity in Sustaining Change
Visual Aid Suggestion:
Habit loop diagram or charting progress of mindset shifts over time.
Chapter 8 – Generational and Demographic Layers: Leadership Styles Across the Ages
Summary:
Debunk the myth that inclusion challenges or leadership styles are dependent on age, gender, or background. Use insights from neuroscience and the Enneagram to show commonality beneath difference.
Subheadings:
Generational Differences: Bias or Reality?
The Influence of Lived Experience on Leadership
Patterns Transcend Demographics
Quote:
“These different leadership style types... are not influenced by generation. How it shows up may differ, but the patterns are universal.”
Chapter 9 – Making It Personal: Stories of Transformation and Self-Reflection
Summary:
Share powerful vignettes of leaders and team members who’ve shifted long-held patterns, and the impact not just on performance, but well-being and connection.
Subheadings:
The Family Narrative at Work
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Burnout
Broadening Perspective, Finding Freedom
Quote:
“I’m most interested in people being free and empowered to create the change they want... helping them see where they put their own self-imposed limits.”
Exercise:
Personal storytelling/reflection prompts.
Conclusion – Inclusion That Sticks: A Call to Action
Summary:
Sythesise key lessons: Lasting inclusion is not a tick-box exercise, but the systematic cultivation of curiosity, self-awareness, empathy, and daily habit. Invite readers to continue the journey.
Suggested Call to Action:
Commit to one new inclusive habit for 30 days.
Hold a team Enneagram reflection session.
Curate a personal or team playlist for transformation.
Further Support:
Link to further resources, recommended reading, credible assessments, and ways to engage in continuous development.
Refinement & Feedback Loop
After initial drafting, share chapter summaries and key lessons with a pilot group of leaders, D&I practitioners, or test readers for input.
Integrate feedback on clarity, relevance, and applicability.
Chapter Summaries
(See under each chapter heading above for individual outlines.)
Each summary encapsulates the intent, focus, and core topics. The final content will interweave direct quotes, illustrative anecdotes, and practical application points to deepen the relevance and accessibility for readers.
Visual and Interactive Elements
Chapter openers: Engaging real-life anecdotes or striking quotes.
Reflection spaces throughout for immediate self-application.
Diagrams illustrating leadership styles, cognitive diversity, the habit loop.
Team and personal exercises, playlist prompts, and empathy inventories.
This structure is designed to be practical, evidence-informed, and motivating—encouraging readers not only to understand inclusion that sticks, but to embody and cascade it in their own sphere of influence.
Maxims to live by…
Maxims for Inclusion That Actually Sticks
Curiosity Over Judgement: Meet differing perspectives with open curiosity. Question your own certainties, and invite others to share "How do you see this?" rather than debating who's right.
See Blind Spots as a Gift: Recognise your own blind spots and welcome those who see what you cannot. That which triggers you in others often presents your greatest opportunity for growth.
Diversity Fuels Better Decisions: Value and encourage cognitive diversity within teams. Seek out voices and perspectives that are missing, and respect differences as sources of strength.
Build High-Trust Spaces: Cultivate environments where it is safe for every voice to speak up and be heard. Trust flourishes when people know their views are genuinely valued.
Challenge with Compassion, Not Resistance: Shift from resisting differences to gently examining your own assumptions. Use language that invites discussion, not division.
Develop Inclusive Habits: Embed simple, repeatable habits that promote inclusion—such as proactively inviting quieter team members into conversations and routinely reflecting on group dynamics.
Self-Knowledge is Leadership: Invest in understanding your own patterns, motivations, and limitations. True leaders turn self-awareness into positive impact.
Music as Mindset: Leverage music to shift your emotional state and create new, empowering narratives that drive your actions.
Authenticity is the New Currency: Stay grounded in your values. In a noisy, fast-moving world, authenticity is what truly endures.
Start Small, Grow Bold: Practise inclusive conversations with less divisive topics before tackling the toughest issues. Skill and confidence build over time.
Invite Mutual Influence: Approach dialogue not with the aim to convert, but to understand. Influence flows both ways when approached with genuine interest.
Harness Empathy: Cultivate both accuracy in understanding others and genuine care for their experiences. The human touch is ever more vital as technology accelerates.
Energy is Contagious—Choose Yours Wisely: Recognise that your emotional patterns shape your environment. Opt for mindset and behaviours that create openness and appreciation.
Question the Narrative: Challenge the inner playlist that keeps you stuck. Reflection and reframing can transform limiting beliefs into platforms for change.
Lead Generational Change: Honour those who paved the way, but do not assume their model is yours. Innovation often comes from questioning the old “rules” and embracing new ways.
Process Over Perfection: Measure progress by openness to growth and sustained change—not by instant results. Inclusion is a continual, collective journey.
Live these maxims, and inclusion becomes not a task, but a defining way of being.
Extended YouTube Description
YouTube Video Description: Inclusion That Actually Sticks | Inclusion Bites Podcast w/ Susan Drumm
Unlock the science and stories behind inclusive leadership in this eye-opening episode of Inclusion Bites, hosted by Joanne Lockwood. Discover how to cultivate inclusion that actually sticks by transforming everyday leadership habits, leveraging neuroscience, and building truly diverse teams. Special guest Susan Drumm, renowned leadership advisor and author, shares practical frameworks to embed belonging and voice equity in organisations—empowering you to create real, sustainable change.
⏰ Timestamps for Easy Navigation
00:00 – Introduction to Inclusion Bites & Episode Theme
01:15 – Meet Susan Drumm: Leadership Adviser & Her “Superpower”
04:18 – How Patterns and Blind Spots Shape Team Dynamics
06:02 – Curiosity Over Resistance: Breaking Rigid Mindsets
09:01 – Building Curiosity on Teams & Understanding Motivations
10:02 – “Worlds Apart” Experiment: Humanising the ‘Other’
11:13 – Language of Inclusion: How to Invite Dialogue
13:31 – The Enneagram & Building Cognitively Diverse Teams
17:22 – Empathy, AI, and the Uniquely Human Advantage
21:35 – The Power of Self-Awareness for Leaders
22:00 – Rewiring Leadership with Music & Neuroscience
24:25 – Case Study: Transforming Exclusion to Contribution
32:33 – Gender, Generation & Executive Patterns
35:37 – Age, Diversity, & Leadership Styles
39:53 – Spotting Superpowers on Your Team and Filling Gaps
41:34 – Applied Enneagram: Growth in Action
44:12 – Where to Connect with Susan Drumm & Bonus Resources
Description – What You’ll Learn & Why It Matters
Are you struggling to move from “tick-box” diversity to a workplace where everyone truly belongs and thrives? In this episode, host Joanne Lockwood sits down with leadership advisor Susan Drumm to break the mould on traditional inclusion. Together, they unpack:
Hidden Patterns & Neuroscience in Teams: Susan Drumm explains how our brains develop habits, how to spot social blind spots, and why “seeing the unseen” leads to high trust and empowered decision-making.
The Power of Cognitive Diversity: Learn why the best-performing teams aren’t just demographically diverse—but include a rich blend of leadership styles, perspectives, and lived experiences.
The Enneagram Advantage: Discover how mapping your team’s Enneagram types reveals opportunities and risks, and how to balance action, caution, creativity, and challenge.
Leveraging Music & Mindfulness: Find out how music can “rewire” limiting beliefs, and why self-understanding is foundational for effective, inclusive leadership.
Navigating AI & Authenticity: As automation increases, emotional intelligence, empathy, and curiosity stand out as the human edge—skills you’ll learn to foster here.
Tactics for Everyday Inclusion: From language that invites, not excludes, to practical tools for “opening the aperture” on conversations—make the leap from awareness to action.
This episode is designed for HR professionals, diversity champions, and forward-thinking leaders who want to create cultures where everyone’s voice counts. You’ll walk away with actionable tools to boost team performance, psychological safety, and a sense of purpose in your organisation.
👉 Ready to ignite lasting change?
Subscribe for weekly episodes and fresh insights: Inclusion Bites on SeeChangeHappen.co.uk
Share this episode with your team or network!
Comment below: What’s your biggest takeaway, or what challenge do you still face in making inclusion “stick”?
Connect with Susan Drumm: susandrum.com
Reach out to host Joanne Lockwood for speaking, workshops, or to share your story: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
🟢 Play the Inclusion Bites Playlist!
Inspired by today’s episode, make your own playlist to shift mindsets and energise your day.
#Hashtags for Discoverability:
#InclusionBites #InclusiveLeadership #DiversityAndInclusion #BelongingAtWork #TeamDynamics #PsychologicalSafety #Enneagram #HRLeadership #WorkplaceWellbeing #Neuroscience #TeamPerformance #CultureChange #SusanDrumm #JoanneLockwood
👀 Related Videos & Episodes to Check Out:
“Building Psychological Safety in Teams”
“How to Master Empathy in Leadership”
“The Science of Belonging at Work”
Make inclusion your superpower—one bite at a time. Subscribe and stay inspired!
Substack Post
How Can We Make Inclusion Stick, Not Slip?
Have you ever wondered why, despite well-meaning strategies and endless workshops, true inclusion seems to slip right through our fingers when we need it most? In modern workplaces, the frustration is palpable: we invest in diversity and anti-bias training, yet cultures of belonging remain out of reach, and meaningful equity sometimes feels like a pipedream. This week on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, I welcome leadership advisor and coach Susan Drumm for a conversation that finally digs beneath the surface—revealing not quick fixes, but lasting solutions for embedding inclusion that truly sticks.
Inclusion That Endures: What Does It Take?
In episode 209, "Inclusion That Actually Sticks", I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Susan Drumm, whose expertise lies in guiding leaders and organisations to transform diversity from a buzzword into everyday, lived performance. Together, we explored:
What lies beneath our inclusive intentions—a web of invisible patterns, self-imposed limits, and unconscious habits that govern collective behaviour.
The neuroscience behind inclusive habits: how to move beyond awareness alone and make equity and belonging part of the workplace’s DNA.
Why inclusive language, curiosity, and self-awareness are more transformative than any off-the-shelf programme.
How Susan’s practical models (including the Enneagram and leadership “playlists”) can help individuals and teams spot their blind spots, embrace difference, and make space for every voice.
Real stories from Susan’s leadership practice—proof that change is borne from personal transformation as much as policy.
This dialogue is a must-listen for HR professionals, D&I leads, Talent and Recruitment specialists, and any organisational or L&D leader who yearns for sustainable, human-centred change—change that doesn’t evaporate after the next team away day.
Navigating Blind Spots: Insights from Susan Drumm
Susan is an expert at decoding what holds teams back. She compares our perspective to a chameleon’s: we think we see everything, yet our true vision is limited by patterns of focus and habitual attention. As Susan illuminated, the superpower of effective leaders is not controlling every variable, but learning to see what we normally miss—and trusting others to fill those gaps.
Drawing on the Enneagram, Susan guided us through nine distinct leadership styles, highlighting that high-performing teams deliberately cultivate diversity in thinking, not just in demographics. Her work shows it’s not enough to assemble a group of bright minds: it’s about ensuring every perspective is a lever for better decisions, innovation, and—most crucially—trust.
Her framework for the “team jigsaw” is striking: just as blood types are rare or common, some perspectives (like the emotionally astute type 4 “intense creative”) are the missing pieces on most teams. Yet, these are precisely the voices capable of drawing out meaning, connection, and purpose—which younger employees in particular crave.
Bite-Sized Steps to Embedding Inclusion
What practical change can you implement today? Here are my top lessons from this episode—ones I’ll be working on myself and urge you to consider:
Curiosity Over Certainty
Instead of entrenching in our viewpoints, resolve to meet disagreement with “That’s interesting—here’s how I’ve seen it; what do you think?” Genuine curiosity breaks down resistance and turns difference into growth.Spot—and Value—Your Blind Spots
Recognise your ‘superpower’ and, more importantly, your blind spots. Deliberately seek out colleagues who see what you cannot. These are sometimes the people who frustrate you most, but they are your greatest resource for insight and collective strength.Don’t Shortchange Inclusive Language
The words we use set the tone for belonging. Small changes—inviting dialogue (“What is your take?”) instead of defending positions (“But what about…”), learning to listen for intent before judging impact—open new doors for psychological safety.Build Your Team's Missing Pieces
Conduct an honest audit: does your team or network include sceptics, deep thinkers, creatives, and challengers? If a perspective is missing, task someone to ‘play the part’ in meetings, or intentionally recruit for that thinking style. High performance relies on cognitive diversity more than ticking demographic boxes.Change the Playlist, Change the Pattern
Drawing from Susan’s “Leader’s Playlist” method, consider what old stories you’re stuck on—are you always playing the song of “I am excluded”? Use music intentionally to build new neural pathways and patterns of thought. Choose a theme tune for your day that empowers the growth you want to see.
Your Sneak Peek: Inclusion Insights in 60 Seconds
Curious about how these ideas translate into real-world practice? I’ve selected a one-minute highlight from my exchange with Susan for you—a glimpse into the mechanics of building truly inclusive teams. Watch the audiogram now for an authentic, thought-provoking excerpt that cuts to the heart of what lasting change looks like in action.
Keep the Conversation Rolling: Listen, Reflect, Share
If this whets your appetite for more, the full episode promises a treasury of practical wisdom, fresh perspectives, and actionable techniques for making inclusion the heartbeat of your organisation.
🎧 Listen to the full episode here
If you find value in our conversation, please share this episode with your colleagues, along with Talent, HR, and L&D leaders in your network. Use it as a springboard for your next team discussion—after all, culture change rarely starts from the top, but from the everyday stories we share.
What’s Your Next Move?
Here’s a thought I keep coming back to: If you could spot just one blind spot on your team this week—and invite someone to fill it with their authentic self—how much further could you go together?
Change often starts at the edge of discomfort. True inclusion is not a campaign, but a commitment: to challenge ourselves, to stay curious, and to ensure no voice goes unnoticed, even when that voice sings a new tune.
Thank you for travelling this journey with me. Let’s keep asking: What song is your team playing—and is it time to add some new notes?
Warmly,
Joanne Lockwood
Host, Inclusion Bites Podcast
The Inclusive Culture Expert at SEE Change Happen
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Interested in workshops, speaking engagements, or working together to build a culture where everyone truly belongs? Email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
What will your inclusion story sound like this week?
Let’s tune inclusion to the melody of belonging—one bite at a time.
1st Person Narrative Content
Inclusion That Actually Sticks: The Real Anatomy of Lasting Change
There's a moment in nearly every transformation—personal, organisational, or societal—where the illusion falls away. We realise inclusion isn’t about codes on a wall, annual training, or even policies. It’s about rewiring the day-to-day patterns, conversations, and energies that define what’s truly possible—especially when no one’s looking. That’s why, when I sat down with Joanne Lockwood for Inclusion Bites, I didn’t mince words: “The person who triggers you most is probably the one you’ve got the most to learn from.”
Let me walk you through why, as leaders and as human beings, we must stop managing around our blind spots and instead welcome the discomfort of real inclusion—so it finally sticks.
Why Inclusion Can’t Be Bolted On
I’ve spent decades helping leaders, teams, and boards get unstuck. Not with “inclusive campaigns,” but by reshaping the undiscussable patterns that quietly run meetings, decisions, and careers. Too often, well-meaning organisations run diversity programmes and expect the mosaic to naturally make better decisions. But habit, brain wiring, and unchallenged assumptions are stickier than our values.
Joanne, whose calm, curious presence has anchored a broad D&I community, gets this at her core. She’s the founder of SEE Change Happen, a renowned inclusion advocate, and hosts Inclusion Bites—a podcast that disrupts shallow corporate discussions and deals in uncomfortable, actionable truths. Her questions reveal layers; her own journey as a visible changemaker makes her someone I trusted for genuine, unfiltered dialogue.
More than [INSERT_VIEW_COUNT] people have already watched our interview on YouTube, with many more tuning in via Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
If any of this resonates—or rankles—I want to hear from you below. Real change starts with real conversation, pushback and all.
Superpowers, Blind Spots, and Why We Need Both
No leader can see the back of their own head. And yet, most get hired, promoted, and rewarded for what they see best—the patterns they’ve honed for years. That’s the superpower. But, as I told Joanne, “Where we point our focus of attention, that’s what we see… and we get very good at looking in that direction. But there’s always something behind our head we can’t see, and that’s our blind spot.”
What does this look like in practice? I worked with one executive team convinced their rapid consensus building was a sign of cultural health. In reality, their lack of dissent was slowly ossifying their creativity and resilience. Only when a “difficult” new hire started voicing contrary perspectives did their performance uptick—and tensions surfaced. Rather than pathologise the new voice, I helped them see this as their best growth opportunity.
Joanne echoed this dynamic: “You get entrenched in your opposites. That’s the work of our times.” We acknowledged that most teams start by resisting unfamiliar viewpoints—sometimes aggressively. But anything you resist gains power. The antidote? Not more defensiveness, but more curiosity.
If a team can shift their stance from, “That’s just the way I am,” to “Is it? What don’t I see yet?” then everything becomes possible. Neuroscience backs this up: our brains literally reinforce what’s familiar until we deliberately build new connections. That’s why the person driving you mad might just be the one pulling you (kicking and screaming) into your next level.
Cognitive Diversity: More than Just Demographics
Here’s the hard truth: genuine inclusion requires us to value diversity of thought—not just diversity of appearance, identity, or background. That means building teams not simply to reflect compliance tick-boxes, but to ensure every spectrum of leadership style is found at the table.
On Inclusion Bites, Joanne and I dug into the power of models like the Enneagram—a system that maps nine core leadership motivations and potential liabilities. Not because the answer is in a test, but because navigating real difference without a shared map is nearly impossible. I use this with teams to show not only “who’s missing” in their current line-up, but also how to source needed perspectives when gaps exist.
Take the “loyal sceptic” (type 6). If your team is all charge-ahead visionaries, you’ll never anticipate risk before it blindsides you. Likewise, if you lack the “intense creative” (type 4), you may never surface the sense of collective meaning that holds an organisation together through adversity.
“It’s not about hiring every type,” I reminded Joanne, “but about ruthlessly checking: are we learning from perspectives not represented in the room?” And if you’re missing a viewpoint, you have to replicate its value through ritual: “Right—who’s playing devil’s advocate? Who’s sense-checking our optimism with tough questions?”
The punchline: Teams that consistently outperform are cognitively diverse and deliberately inclusive of different processing styles—not just performatively diverse in HR lingo.
Pattern Disruption: Harnessing Triggers for Growth
Discomfort is not proof that inclusivity is failing. On the contrary, a little friction means we’re stretching the system. The rub is how we navigate the emotional triggers this brings.
I told Joanne one of my mantras: “The person who triggers you is the one you need most.” All human beings develop sensitised patterns—but leaders under stress revert to theirs the fastest. Our default wiring will echo old, unhelpful beliefs until we intentionally update them. And here’s an unconventional tool I use—music.
I ask leaders, “What’s the playlist keeping you stuck?” I mean this both figuratively and literally. What soundtrack, what underlying rhythm of belief, are you reinforcing every time you interpret challenge as threat or exclusion? I’ve watched talented executives reinvent themselves—and alter the energy of their teams—by disrupting those automatic tracks. Sometimes Adele’s “Hello” marks the pattern (“No one’s answering, I’m on the outside, I’m excluded…”), and sometimes a newly-chosen playlist becomes, “I bring peace and appreciation”—backed by entirely different energy.
This isn’t just soft science. Music, like unconscious habits, carves rapid new neural pathways. It helps the brain embed empowered alternatives instead of decades-old scripts. “When you get stuck in a pattern…it becomes the water you swim in,” I told Joanne, “but you can break free.” Change the soundtrack, and you begin to change reality.
Joanne wholeheartedly tested and amplified this idea—turning episodes into AI-generated playlists and encouraging listeners to choose a “power song” to start their day. It’s not a gimmick. It’s pattern theory, neuroscientific reality, and, frankly, leadership edge.
Empathy is a Leadership Survival Skill: Two Dimensions to Master
Everyone’s talking about empathy. Few understand that empathy is not just a soft skill, but an advanced workplace survival tool—especially in a world where artificial intelligence is quickly absorbing the logic layer of all knowledge jobs.
I break empathy down into two actionable dimensions: accuracy and compassion. Can you accurately see from the other’s perspective (even if you disagree)? And, crucially, do you care about their viewpoint? Having one without the other is incomplete—at worst, manipulative. (The classic psychopath can see your thoughts, but doesn’t care.)
AI may strive to mimic empathy, but—at least for now—it most often just mirrors your biases back at you. Joanne and I joked how easy it is now to get algorithmic approval for whatever you already believe. Real leaders do the opposite: they seek out challenges to their current pattern. They ask, “Show me where my thinking is flawed. What am I missing?”
As routine cognitive tasks are automated away, the humans who will thrive are those who can actively combine empathy accuracy and empathy compassion—not because it’s nice, but because it’s necessary.
Building Inner Wisdom in the Age of Manipulation
Authenticity is now confrontation—not with others, but sometimes with ourselves. Deepfake media, algorithmic feeds, AI cheerleaders: they all encourage us to glide comfortably across illusion. In this era, leaders need to anchor back to something trustworthy: their own inner compass.
Joanne pushed me on this: “As a leader, you have to work out what other people see you as.” My reply: you cannot rely solely on external validation or feedback metrics to gauge your true influence. The only sustainable method is inward: through listening, pattern recognition, and honest review. What is your inner wisdom telling you? Only then can you use feedback (whether from people, teams, or the market) for what it is: data, not identity.
Helping high performers reconnect with that internal guidance—carving out space for solitude, pause, and honest track changes—is some of the most vital work I’ve done. It’s paradoxical: the bolder your external moves, the deeper your internal rooting needs to be.
Women, Generations, and Evolving Leadership Prototypes
Joanne and I spent time examining how gender and generational realities play into leadership styles and patterns. As a woman in my mid-fifties, I’m acutely aware that my generation’s journey into the executive suite often came with a fight. “There’s a real fire,” I remarked, “because they’ve had to breakthrough initial bias… but also maybe exhaustion, because it took a lot of energy to get there.” With that fight comes an unintentional hazard: expecting the next generation to struggle in the same way, as though suffering is a prerequisite for leadership.
That is now being upended. Younger leaders—sometimes billionaires in their twenties—are creating value, taking risk, and leading without adopting old, exhaustion-driven recipes. Joanne noted, “It’s not all Warren Buffets in their 70s and 80s… there’s a lot more gung-ho.” But, as we both agreed, leadership styles aren’t dictated by demography, but by deeper cognitive wiring and lived experience. The stereotypes are too blunt; the work is to surface and value the underlying differences, not the visible categories.
The Constant: Every Leader Still Has Patterns to Shift
No matter how much success you accumulate, the patterns you formed on the way up will follow you—unless you deliberately transform them. After all, as I observed, the fears that propelled you to greatness may still haunt you once you arrive. The only antidote: more self-awareness, more curiosity, more willingness to “break up with” the emotional playlists that no longer serve.
Joanne brought this home for herself and the broader Inclusion Bites community. Whether battling imposter syndrome, burnout, or a persistent sense of not belonging, we’re all more similar than we want to admit. The freedom comes not from banning negative emotion, but from seeing it, learning from it, and choosing when we’re ready to write a new track.
Punchline: Inclusion is an Act, Not a Policy
When I partner with leaders, I’m not promising certainty, silver bullets, or neat KPIs to instantly quantify a shift in team effectiveness. Culture is invisible, recursive, and slow to change—until it suddenly isn’t. The beauty of investing in the mechanics of true inclusion, as Joanne and I concluded, is that with every new perspective, the capacity for breakthrough multiplies. New patterns emerge directly from new voices.
What I want you to hold onto: The answers are not in best-practice checklists or executive horoscopes. They’re in radical curiosity, courageous self-inquiry, and the willingness to leverage our most infuriating encounters for growth. If we do that, inclusion moves from something we talk about to something we embody. That’s when it actually sticks.
So, as you consider your own teams, roles, and leadership journey, I invite you to ask: Where does your current playlist need to change? What new voices are you willing to listen to—really listen to, even when their perspective feels uncomfortable? That’s where your next breakthrough lies.
If this provokes you. If you spot a blind spot I missed—or a practical move you’ve tried—join the conversation below. Every insight, story, and counterargument moves this work forward. And I, for one, am listening.
Song Lyrics from Episode
[Title
Patterns in the Sunlight]
[Synopsis
Episode 209 — “Inclusion That Actually Sticks” inspires this melodic reflection on seeing blind spots, shifting lifelong patterns, and building genuine team belonging. Drawing from leadership lessons, neuroscience, and music's healing power, the song moves from personal introspection to collective liberation. With gentle acoustic energy and an unvarnished voice, it’s a rallying call to break cycles and spark authentic change.]
[Vibe
Female indie pop/country vocal over warm, fingerpicked acoustic and subtle pads; mid-tempo, uplifting build. Instrumental intro (soft keys and guitar), gentle rhythmic pulse. Chorus swells with harmonies and shimmery electric layers. Bridge: dynamic shift to intimate, open tones. Fade out repeats chorus, instrumentation drops away until only acoustic and vocal remain.]
Lyrics
[Verse 1]
Patterns in the sunlight, habits in the shade,
Blind spots in the backseat, leading games we played.
Someone’s always looking where I just can’t see,
We’re building trust from fragments of who we think we should be.
[Instrumental section – atmospheric pads and guitar arpeggios]
[Verse 2]
Stories from the green room, desert rain and London skies,
I spent years fighting winter, now I crave what opens eyes.
Curiosity’s a language, and truth is what we miss —
Let’s question all the “that’s just how it is.”
[Pre-Chorus]
Step outside your own design,
Hear another point of view.
Every song needs a harmony,
And every map needs something new.
[Chorus]
Let’s get lost in brighter questions,
Not just showing what we know.
Push beyond resistance;
Let the unknown help us grow.
If you’re reaching for belonging,
There’s a place for every sound —
When we listen to each other,
That’s where inclusion’s found.
[Instrumental break — swelling pads, fingerpicked lead guitar, muted percussion]
[Verse 3]
Playlist in my pocket,
Old refrains kept me small;
Time to change the story,
Let the sunlight touch it all.
New beliefs and melodies,
Rewrite the space we claim —
From “I am excluded”
To calling each other’s name.
[Pre-Chorus]
Step outside your own design,
Dare to listen, dare to see.
We can hold the awkward silence —
That’s where wisdom learns to breathe.
[Chorus]
Let’s get lost in brighter questions,
Not just showing what we know.
Push beyond resistance;
Let the unknown help us grow.
If you’re reaching for belonging,
There’s a place for every sound —
When we listen to each other,
That’s where inclusion’s found.
[Bridge]
Old patterns keep us circling,
But music breaks the chain.
It’s not just comfort, not just courage —
It’s dancing in the rain.
We’re more than just our playlists,
More than what we fear,
When we change the song,
A whole new world appears.
[Instrumental fade — soft guitar, fading into single vocal line]
[Final Chorus]
Let’s get lost in brighter questions,
Side by side, heart to ground.
Every voice is part of healing,
That’s how inclusion’s found.
If you’re tired of being lonely,
Of carrying old scars,
In the sunlight, in the silence,
We find out who we are.
[Outro — Repeating last two lines, gentle instrumental fade]
[Artistic Direction: Keep the language direct, honest, and unpretentious. Verses reference imagery and narratives from the episode (blind spots, music as leadership transformation, diversity as harmony). The chorus is a call to collective action and introspective growth, avoiding cliché. Bridge injects vulnerability and breakthrough energy. Final chorus and outtro are gently uplifting, inviting the listener to personal reflection and hope. The overall effect is empowering but not sentimental, with grounded emotional resonance.]
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