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Inclusion Starts with Recruiters
The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Inclusion Starts with Recruiters
JL
Speaker
Joanne Lockwood
JM
Speaker
Jo Major
00:00 Supporting Recruitment Industry Evolution 10:21 Reimagine Recruitment as a Career 13:12 Rethinking Recruitment Career Development 18:12 Rethinking Recruitment: DE&I as USP 26:43 AI Transforming Recruitment Processes 33:12 Unemployment Frustrations and Job Market Challenges 36:59 Career Struggles and Support Gaps 40:46 Revitalising LinkedIn for Career Growth 50:06 Embracing Age Diversity…
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Featured moments
Highlights
“The Heart of Inclusion Quote: "Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives.”
“The Challenges of Inclusive Recruitment Quote: "It's very, very different to class recruiters who are their successes measured and their performance is rewarded based on time to hire and speed and it may be minimal human resources, you know, and maximum output and then asking them to then integrate inclusion and accessibility and equity into that process, to change the way they hire, to change the way that they make decisions, to change, to add extra layers into that process.”
“Rethinking Careers in Recruitment: "Isn't it sad that such an interesting career path is seen as something that you fall into? You know, why do people not choose to go into recruitment when recruitment itself can be an incredible profession and an incredible career?”
“Rethinking the Recruiter's Role: "How on earth are we not sitting down with recruiters and talking to Them about organisational design, workforce planning, dynamic employer brand development, EVP development and all of that.”
“The Real Role of Hiring Managers "Because I think too often the hiring manager is an amateur hirer. They're a professional person but an amateur.”
Timeline
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Full transcript
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show.
So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
And today is episode 173 with title inclusion Starts With Recruiters. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Jo. Major Jo is transforming the recruitment industry by equipping professionals with the tools and mindset to embed equity and inclusion at every stage of the hiring process. When I asked Jo to describe her superpower, she said it is inspiring recruiters to care more deeply and to think differently about people. Hi, Jo, welcome to the show.
Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me.
I should say welcome back because we did actually record this episode with two months ago and silly me, I was in the cutting room studio and I cut too deep on the track and erased you and I gave you a rather sheepish email back and said, I'm really sorry, do you forgive me? And you've said anything to have another chat with you, that's fine.
Yes, exactly. This is a privilege to get to do do this all over again.
Another conversation, and it's been so long since we actually recorded that I really don't remember the conversation. So it's a ideal opportunity to maybe update our thinking based on some of the BS that's going on in the world right now and some of the challenges that recruiters are still facing.
What a difference a month makes, right?
It is, yeah. I mean, what difference breakfast makes on one day? You know, you start by eating your bowl of cereal and then by the time you finished it, you're no longer enfranchised in the country. Yeah, stuff happens really rapidly.
We live in very, very interesting times.
So you hang out predominantly in the recruitment space and it's mainly what, I guess agency recruiters rather than in house. Is it?
It's more of a mix now. But when I launched the business, my mission was to support the recruitment industry just because of the responsibility I felt and saw that the recruitment industry had and also the power it has given, how much it's responsible for in terms of the job markets and moving people around. So that. Yeah, that's where it all started. And that's my sweet spot as well. Having been an agency recruiter for such a long time, over 17 years, it felt like a sensible move to start in a space where I was familiar and I also could use myself as that kind of case study because I'd. Although I was an ethical recruiter, those ethics had been built in me from day one. I didn't really understand anything about inclusion and accessibility and equity.
It was just that kind of natural part of me that wanted to do the right thing by humans and for humans to have a good experience of me, but without that kind of that technical knowledge and. And confidence. That makes sense.
Yeah, no, it does. And I did work in the recruitment sector as well as, you know, and I see so many just talk about agency recruiters here wanting to be ethical. They wanted to do the right thing, they wanted to create opportunities for everybody because, let's be honest, it makes good business sense as well, you know, broaden your. Yeah, it's hard finding good talent to give to clients on your slate of options. So it does make sense. But I still get frustrated sometimes. It is a bit performative. It's almost like a tick.
Yes. We're a diverse and inclusive recruitment organisation. It seems to be a bit of.
A trend that, doesn't it? It does, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of them are. I think the will is that, and I think a lot of them have taken more of an interest in D and I because they've been held accountable for it from their clients. It's not unusual for a recruitment business to approach me, as I'm sure you've experienced this as well, when something's gone wrong when it comes to the commercial side of it, they've been kicked off a preferred supplier list or they've been rejected for, you know, for a big retained project that they were going for because they've not been able to demonstrate their experience, inclusive recruitment competency and capability. There is a. There is a lot of. There's a lot of talk. There is some box ticking stuff.
Unfortunately, you know, we get as much box ticking in the recruitment industry as we do in the employer space. I think one of the biggest challenges is the capacity and the resources to be able to actually change the hiring model that recruiters use. And I think if you look at, you know, the metrics that recruiters are measured on the environment that they've got to, you know, got to work in, given a, you know, for example, from a, from a time perspective, it's not supportive of a proper inclusive recruitment process unless you're doing or operating a retained model. It's very, very different to class recruiters who are their successes measured and their performance is rewarded based on time to hire and speed and it may be minimal human resources, you know, and maximum output and then asking them to then integrate inclusion and accessibility and equity into that process, to change the way they hire, to change the way that they make decisions, to change, to add extra layers into that process. This is difficult for them to kind of understand because they've got all these other responsibilities going on around them and they're like, we need to slow things down and they're like that. That doesn't make sense to us. We need to speed things up. I get it, I get that.
One of the questions I often when I'm having conversations, not just with recruiters, other organisations, is what are you doing for yourselves? You are trying to offer these services to your clients, but look in the mirror yourself to start with. What are your own processes? What does your demographic look like? How can you evidence? Because if you're trying to show a better way to your client and you're not matching that, that lacks the authenticity, doesn't it? I think sometimes we're recruits themselves are very narrow demographic.
Yeah, absolutely. I think representation is a real challenge for the recruitment industry. It never fails to fascinate me as to why we have such a, you know, a diverse talent pool as an industry and yet we are pretty. We can be one dimensional as an industry ourselves and we don't. We are not representing the communities that we're here to serve and to recruit, recruit for as our clients and to place. And I think that creates a lot of invisible barriers for the recruitment industry and our success. You know, we often wonder why certain roles, certain areas, certain certain areas of expertise are hard for us to recruit. And it's like, well, do your recruiters reflect the talent pool that you're wanting to bring into the organisation? Usually that's a hard no.
And I think that we've moved on from an industry where the key factor that we looked for in skillset was the ability to sell. And I think now that what we're working with is the ability to develop relationships, to have the expertise of hiring strategy, a market Job marketing strategy, to be able to think strategically, to understand how a business operates, to understand how all those pestle factors impact our clients and our industry and the movement of candidates. And I think that now more than ever we need true business partners and true talent consultants who properly consult. Because I, I think we're moving away while tech's replacing recruitment as a process. And if we, you know, this, this continual, if we're continually selling the basics, I think that's where we're really gonna struggle. And I, I don't want the recruitment industry to just be a place for young homogenous groups. It should be a career for everybody. There's no barriers to getting into it.
So why do we all look the same? And I think a lot of that is down to the, the working environment and the culture and the stereotype that we've buil.
I remember a friend of mine who, you know, Bill Borman always said to me, nobody leaves school to aspire to be a recruiter. It's one of those careers you kind of, Most people, I don't want to stereotype. Most people drop into, they got a salesy background, they've got this background or they somehow get into recruitment. Somehow. Is that part of the problem? People naturally gravitate and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Recruiters attract recruiters in their image and it's how to break that image down.
Yeah. Isn't it sad that such an interesting career path is seen as something that you fall into? You know, why do people not choose to go into recruitment when recruitment itself can be an incredible profession and an incredible career? And it's like I said, it's something that you don't necessarily, you know, the barriers to it, the entry and the entry levels to it are relatively straightforward to get into. So. But I think it's because we built this caricature of ourselves and in reality, who want, who would ever want to step into that as a role? And it's my belief as well that we're seen as a temp, as a stepping stone, you know, a role that I might do for a temporary amount of time. And it's like why, why, why has it become so transactional? Why have we created this career opportunity where you come in and then you go out and you, you know, when you tend to come in at a certain point in your life and you tend to leave at certain point in your life, you know, why, why are we not professionalising the recruitment industry enough so it actually becomes a, you know, a genuine career option? And I think A lot of it is, like I said, this sales caricature when my belief has always been that, you know, we. Yes, it is sales to a degree, but it's also a lot more technical. You know, you can sell a concept. Can you sell human beings with their own minds and their own behaviours and their own, their own agendas? That's really difficult.
Yeah, because it's. If you talk about sales, you know, the high street sales would be cars, used or brand new cars. You've got estate agents, letting agents, those are the sort of caricatures that pop into your head. But we've got to realise that people are not inanimate objects, are they? They're all unique, they're all different in the same way. A second hand car I guess is unique to a, to that car. You're trying to find a fit with it. But humans are different. I think often do.
We think as recruiters there's a whole evolution. You know, I look at the recruitment industry, the sourcing people who source they are technical geniuses with searching and the deep research and investigators. It's a unique skill in their own just sourcing, finding candidates, finding opportunities for people. Then you've got workforce planning, you've got OD teams, you've got talent management, talent development. All that kind of fits under the TA banner if you like. In a big organisation, agency recruits is just a small element of that. It's the combination of sourcing, placing and evaluating candidates, isn't it? But in a whole strategy, Chris, are far more than that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think I'm seeing. It's interesting, isn't it? Which I'm just reflecting on what you just said then. It's like you have like a, you've got a very, very interesting dynamic career path as an internal recruiter because there are so many moving parts to it. And yet as an agency recruiter I feel that there's just, you know, there is just one, one pathway. I mean some would argue you could do client facing or you could do candidate facing or you can manage people or you don't have to manage people, you can build out divisions. But it's strange how we just see it maybe as this like one dimensional role instead of actually investing in the professional developer development of our recruiters to go from that, you know, that job specification piece to the recruitment, marketing, talent attraction, you know, through to the, you know, to the, to the filling of the roles. And actually why are we not, how on earth are we not sitting down with recruiters and talking to Them about organisational design, workforce planning, dynamic employer brand development, EVP development and all of that.
All of that human stuff, all of that. The things that are instrumental in attracting and retaining great people. Why do we. Why are we still just plugging into the very basics of what a recruiter does?
You mentioned earlier about the consultative approach. That's where every agency recruiter wants to be. They want to be seen as a value add, not just a shifter. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we add value. We do this. I think what you just said there is what a lot of agencies, and I'm not criticising anybody here is what they're not doing is they're not interfacing to the business at a strategic level. They're just fulfilling a hiring manager's desire.
I want this without asking why or can we help? Or can we. Can we understand your brand values better? So we can. We can look at the candidate profile, as you say, the evp, the recruit marketing based on who you are, rather than just putting out this bland. I want a Java developer, I want a DevOps programme or whatever it may be without understanding the context of the brand.
I think a lot of it has got. We've also got to think about, like, who's created this and I do think it is. It's the fact that recruitment agencies are devalued, I think, by a lot of clients that, you know, paying them an awful lot of money just to source CVs. Essentially. It's not unusual for me to sit down with recruiters and for them to, you know, we talk about the, you know, the job brief stage and for them to not even be able to have a meeting with a client about the job, let alone meet the hiring manager, let alone get more than 10 minutes with them. And yeah, that client's paying for a service. The payer, you know, they could be paying anything from 5, 10, 15 to. Depends on what rates are.
And yet the relationship between the recruiter and the client is. Said it before, is so transactional, you might as well. Well, you will be able to. You might as well just feed in a command into a piece of recruitment technology and pay it 10k. And this is. And I do think the recruiters have got. They've got. We need to think about how do we actually change the perception of where we fit in to the talent attraction strategy.
It's. We can say that we are. We add value and we're trusted partners and splash all that stuff across the, you know, our websites, but that won't be happening with each and every role that we've got in. There'll be a degree of that, but not with all of them. So how do we change that relationship between hiring manager and client and recruiter and for us to truly be seen as business partners? I believe it's when we start to evolve and change our services and what we actually do and what we actually consult on. Because taking a job brief over a five minute conversation with a client is not consultation, it's not advisory work, it's not expertise. It's something that could be picked up like that by recruitment technology and it's my belief that it will be.
Yeah, certainly you look at some of the ATSs and some of the AI integrations out there, the platforms are doing a lot of this work for you. And Even the way LinkedIn is changing its recruitment platform within LinkedIn it's making it more easy to self serve, more easy for candidates to amplify themselves and look at fit better. And yeah, I think we're seeing an evolution where if not careful agencies will just be a, it will just be going back to being a bucket shop if they can't elevate into that consulting. Do the hiring teams want that? Does the in house hiring manager actually want the agency to consult or are they forcing them into that transactional relationship?
It's a good question, isn't it? It's almost like we've got to do a PR job on a lot of the industry and change this perception. I think it will take recruiters talking to hiring managers about something different and this is where I feel that I really try to push the whole DE&I and inclusive hiring expertise as your USP. For us to actually keep on top of trends, for us to truly understand all the factors that are influence that, that are influencing our clients hiring decisions, the stuff that's truly keeping them awake at night. Because I sometimes listen to, you know, go to the conferences and nobody ever really talks about what's keeping clients awake at night. And when they do it's like where did you get that from? Because that's not an a deep dive survey. It's understanding trends and understand actually sitting down with an organisation at the beginning of the year and asking them a question about where they want to be from a diversity and demographic perspective. What, where it, what's their weak points in their hiring strategy? What upskilling do their hiring managers need? What about, you know, without even being invited to do it, doing a, you know, an audit of their website and their careers page, you can easily access your client's job descriptions at the click of a button and critiquing them and rebuilding them and saying, I know you've not asked me to do this, but I've done it and I'd really like to have a chat with you about the results. It's that kind of like proactive.
And for some reason recruiters are terrified of stepping into EDNI and recruitment because they think it's political. We know it's political, but they see it as this conversation that they've not been invited to. They don't see it as an enhancement of their service capability. And that for me is, you know, is, is, is wild. You know, if TA is saying we can't make decisions on CVs because candidates are using technology far too much and Instead of having five CVs that fit the bill, we have 500 CVs that are a perfect match of the JD. And we don't, we cannot shortlist. Why are the recruiters in that conversation going in and going, shall we have a conversation around how we can change the sifting process? What can we do to. Why don't we do a pilot where we take the CV out of the process? Let's look at the other things that we can do to help you with this.
And I don't know whether or not they just feel that it's out of their capability or it's, you know, I think there is this tendency to stick to what we've done over the last 10, 20, 30 years instead of really ramping it up and being at the same level as the tech providers trying to kick us out. I'm going down rabbit hole with this, but.
You'Ve probably must have worked more hiring managers than I have in my time at Are we, Are we setting this hiring manager up as some sort of super expert on talent management branding diversity? Often a hiring manager in my experience has been a department head or someone in a department who has an empty seat or wants to grow his team or her team or their team, and they may not hire daily, they may hire once or twice a year or maybe every other year. They're not necessarily match fit in the hiring process. Should, should our agencies, should our external recruiters be interfacing at a different level in organisation? Interfacing with the DNI team, interface with the HR team, interfacing with marketing and branding or a general talent overview team and encouraging the organisation to maybe have professional hirers? And that's a TA business partner, for one of a better way of describing it, where people are professional recruiters. In house as well. Because I think too often the hiring manager is an amateur hirer. They're a professional person but an amateur.
Hire a recruiter, right. Their job isn't a recruiter and they, you know, you're right, you get, they're often given that role that you know, through promotional or hiring in and not actually given the skill set. And so the ideal scenario for me would be to, you know, to even just send check the basic capacity of hiring managers and see that as an opportunity to, you know, as recruiters we claim that we are experts in interviewing. What can we do to share that expertise and also just being able to audit the capability of the TA team and seeing whether or not we can bring in our professional services that way. There's often pain points, there's often, you know, gaping holes in a, in our clients recruitment and TA playbook and again we pride ourselves on being recruitment and TA experts. What are we doing to be able to seek to identify where help may be needed and then adapting our services accordingly and moving towards offering a whole suite of professional services that go beyond just advertising a role, emailing out the database and going through the recruitment process. Not to simplify the hiring process because I know it's a lot more than that and I don't want people throwing rocks at me after they've listened to the test. But I get, you know, I get it's more than that but I think that we're not even having the conversation Joanne around.
This is what we do and these are our capabilities. Have you ever thought about working with us in a slightly different way? Is it worth exploring?
Is that nudging into the RPO space where we are trying to be the outsourced partner on this rather than an arm's length agency that is that, is that the blurring occurring there?
I mean maybe we will see more capability building through, you know, in that RPO offering. I've heard, you know, I've heard noise around that being, you know, being, being a thing. But then I guess, you know, an RPO model's not, it's not what. They're really good on paper, right? They're really good on paper and they work for some organisations but they often don't deliver on their promises. It's not this transformational silver bullet that we always expect it to be. And I don't think you necessarily need, you know, an all singing, all dancing kind of like RPO model. I just think it's about just in its most basic form, just thinking about what level of expertise You've got in your organisation what's missing, bringing it in and then packaging it up. So you are almost that one stop shop for everything modern recruitment needs.
You know, you've got. You know, you've got tech capability. You know, recruiters, I feel, need to be recruitment technology experts. Right. I know if some recruitment businesses who are not, you know, where things like ChatGPT are getting banned and they're not allowed to use things like Otter AI, and they're actually being moved away from recruitment technology instead of embracing it. If it was. If I ran a recruitment business today, I'd be sending all my recruiters out, I'd be getting them trained fully on the. They'd know everything about the future impact of AI and recruitment technology.
I would be wanting them to be the people who have conversations about where clients can go to and talk to them about that stuff. Not every recruiter, it's not realistic, but a person within the organisation whose side hustle is AI and technology in recruitment.
Yeah, I agree. I think if you're not using things like Otter Read Fathom to capture your meetings, your conversations, and then using AI to process the client requirements, process the candidate requirements, summarising conversations, keeping meeting notes. If you're not doing that consistently, then how can you offer that consultative service? Because you're just relying on that individual point of contact to make adequate notes. I know people are parochial. If I kept all this and I make it too transparent, then I'm expendable. I always look at the other way, that the more you should do it, the more you embed yourself because you become a trusted person inside rather than a.
Rather than a. Yeah, but we've spoken a lot, haven't we, about how we feel about using technology and AI and whatnot. And I just think that, you know, in its simplest form, it helps to. Could help to transform the recruitment process and free people up to do the important stuff, which is the human. And I just think this goes, you know, hand in hand with a whole range of different roles that I think should be within a recruitment industry from. I mentioned it before, advisory on things like career pages and employee value propositions and, you know, all those things that we tend to look at when we may be doing a retained search, actually looking at that retained model and thinking like, what can we have? Just as a. You know, we might still be running contingent, I don't think for long, but what can we have on our suite of product offerings for that particular client's social media? You know, we. We've probably got People within our organisation that are absolute experts in tech that I probably don't use from a social media perspective, you know, and they're, they're absolutely, they've got an incredible amount of followers on TikTok and they can create content in five seconds.
You know, if you're working with an SME who don't necessarily have that capability within their TA team, that is a, for me that is just an absolute no brainer to be able to say, look, we've got a, got a social media expert. It focuses on candidate engagement through TikTok. We want to show you some of the campaigns that we pull together for some of our clients, you know, and have that in the cell. I'm getting carried away with my ideas here but here's our tech person, here's our social media person, here is our Edna, you know, inclusive, accessible hiring person, here is our skills based, you know, interview training expert, you know, and you've just got this suite of people that just go beyond salespeople, job fillers, contingent recruitment.
I'm with you though. I completely agree that you need to meet candidates where they're at in the medium of format and the messaging that they're going to respond to. And if you look at best recruitment marketing it is using things like Snapchat, TikTok, these modern social media tools to get into markets where traditional, you know, putting an advert at the Times may be good if you want to hire a board level non exec director in a specific sector because they sit there on a Sunday morning reading the vacancies but the average person doesn't look at the evening paper anymore or even in specialist job boards. They're on TikTok, they're on these things and if you want to penetrate intermediate psyche, those are where you need to be. And if you're not doing that now, you're missing out on that talent because somebody else is, you're not there, you know that somebody else is definitely doing that. It's getting people to broaden their thinking here in terms of where do I have to go to find the fish I'm looking for. I can't just put it in the pond over here. I've got to think about the entire landscape now.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why we need to be instead of just constantly hanging out in our echo chamber as an industry. That's why we need to be like stepping out and actually spending time outside our industry, just really, really understanding how marketing's changing, how tech's changing. I did a piece. I think it might have been after Weeds Birken last time. It's just something that I'm really interested is the different generational attitudes, but between buying and selling. And I'd been asked to do a talk at a conference and I thought, you know what? I've done this conference several years in a row. I don't want to talk about the usual stuff.
I want to do something that people won't be expecting. And I know that it's a real pain point of the industry at the moment, you know, to retain, especially early careers talent, you know, to get them selling in a way that is deemed success for us as older generations. So I did a load of research into it. I came up with this, with this, with this session on understanding, you know, buyer and seller behaviour between all five different generations, actually. And it was fascinating and it went down really well. And off the back of it, I developed a workshop. And it just really, really kind of almost just surprised me in a way because I'm not some, you know, I'm not some amazing brain that's just thinking outside the box constantly. I just think about basic stuff.
And it really surprised me that it was so different and it was like. And we'd never. Actually, nobody else was really, really talking about it and that we were still profiling clients as though they were boomers or Gen Z xs, you know what I mean? And it's just like, that's me.
Gen Xer.
Yeah, Gen Xer. Yeah, me too. And it's like, I think sometimes we need this diversity of thought. We need to, as an industry, hang out a lot more with our clients and we actually need to get on, you know, to smash down this echo chamber of people. The industry's telling the industry what it needs to do. This is wild. This is group. This is a large scale group think case study.
And I think those that are doing incredibly well are the ones that have got that board that are full of, you know, are not full of recruitment industry folk, you know, who have their advisors from their client base who hang out with their clients. You know, I still find it unbelievable that some of the big conferences that we see, we never see clients on stage. Jo, why do we never see leading TA experts on our stages? At the Recruitment Expo, for example, Let.
Me just turn this around. You talked about getting a client. A client is the person paying the money, which is the company you're providing the resource to. Well, I always get frustrated there's not enough work in helping develop candidates.
You know, as soon as you said.
That I was like people I know all happen to be women in this particular case are what I would call now long term unemployed six months plus going on 12. One of them has picked up an entry, Enrol, a short 10 week contract, fixed term contract in the middle of their now back end on the market. And I see their frustration on LinkedIn. I see them just thanklessly posting that They've applied for 400 jobs this week. They've done this, they've done that, they've had interviews, they're not getting callbacks. If you keep doing the same thing, you're going to get the same result. If you're not being hired after six months, you have to start looking in the mirror and saying actually it's about what can I do differently? No one's really investing in people to make them either more marketable, upskill them, make them more match fit, job ready or even help them explore different opportunities. Do you think recruiters should also look to the talent and coach them more? You know, because I've always, whenever I've been in the market I sort of said to the recruiter, what more could I do? What is wrong with my cv? What is wrong with my submission, my cover letter? They go, yeah, it's all right, it's not my, yeah, almost saying it's not my job to coach you sort of thing.
You've got to do the hard work yourself. So who is going to coach those people to get them into work?
I think it's a very, very, very interest of job centre. Crikey, can you imagine? We would be in trouble.
Careers, coach, whatever we.
It's a very, very interesting point and I'm really glad that you brought it up. And you know, potentially I don't talk about this enough. It reminds me of I've actually got an ex recruiter, ex hr, moved into HR equipment and Nair's now set up on her own incredible woman called Faith Phillips Jones and she's set up her own this exact. Because this is missing. She set up a coaching company to work with senior HR professionals. You know, the majority of them tend to be, to be women and she's taking them through that process where she's looking at, she's not just looking at the cv, she's looking at their personal brand, their social media activity, their interview techniques, really kind of critiquing like their jobs, how they're looking at their job search, how they're managing their job search, who they're talking to, who they're not talking to. And I Absolutely. Think, you know, it's.
She's external to an agency and making a business out of that. And the interesting thing is people are prepared to. Even when they're not in work or when they're gearing up for a move, they're prepared. Prepared to put in that personal investment. And maybe there's this just. It goes back to that, the metrics that we work on as a recruitment industry, where we see ourselves making money out of the small percentage of candidates that we can place and the clients, rather than actually thinking about this other area, potentially untapped area of professional services for candidates, because there's definitely a market for it. But maybe it's because of, you know, we don't necessarily see the value or it might go back to. It might go into that kind of grey area of we don't charge clients, candidates for our service, you know, and we're governed on that.
But it, you know, I don't see enough of it even just from a, you know, from a. Just a candidate support, apart from the basics. Read this downloadable. Watch this video. And actually, if we are seeing what I'm predicting is large gaps of unemployment for particular demographics, there's an opportunity for us to really step in there and coach that group because that should be part of our responsibility as well.
What's there now? You look at the local colleges, the training programmes, the government initiatives, which tends to be where it's free because you've got no job, you haven't got huge sums of money to invest, you've spent your redundancy money quite quickly, or if you had any in the first place, and you're living hand to mouth, you're on benefits almost, and the job centre or the benefits want you to be actively seeking a role, taking whatever's going. You think, well, I don't want to work in a checkout, but I have to take this job, which means I can't then invest my time in finding out. It's chicken and eggs. The government want you to be in work and not paying you benefits and you then hold out because you want your ideal role. And sometimes you think, hang on a minute, I'm not going to get this. So you've got to think about your career pivoting, what you can do quickly, haven't you? And it's people need career coaching, I think, and they're not getting it. Not getting it. And being an entrepreneur myself, I always say to people, are you sure you're sure you want to work for somebody else? The amount of effort you Put into trying to find that role.
You could have started a business and you could be earning 300 quid a day. Yeah, you must be able to earn 300 quid a day at doing something. I think, oh no, I couldn't work. I gotta, I gotta work for somebody else. I want someone to feed me, I want somebody. I don't want the risk, I don't want stress. Okay, go for it. In a year's time we'll have this conversation.
I can say the same to you. You could start a business by now and done this on your own. I know, I know. You've got to try and encourage people to think differently. You know, if you take a, let's say people earn 40,000 a year. If you're not earning £40,000 for one year, that's what I was. My math. Three and a half thousand a month, whatever it is, how long is it going to take you to recover that three and a half thousand a month over the next 10 years of your career? It's going to be ages.
So are you better off compromising your charge what you need to earn and get in and then grow your career again? Re baseline yourself £500? £500amonth cut is not actually a 500amonth cut. It's two and a half thousand pound you've earned. So you're always thinking, I'm worth more than that. And it's helping people become more realistic about their own expectations, isn't it? Without devaluing them.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a conversation that I always have as well with people that I've, you know, that I've seen especially, especially more experienced candidates because this is, it seems to be that kind of, you know, over 50 zone where that I'm seeing the biggest challenge with, you know, if there's much, much harder, especially, you know, maybe it's just my, you know, my people I'm surrounded by, but especially women. And these are people who have the skillset to be able to be going out there and setting up tomorrow and the networks to be doing it as well. But I think it is challenging. You become institutionalised into the world of employment, don't you? And it takes an awful lot for you to believe that you've got the capability to run your own business. And I always say to them, crikey, if I can do it, if I can do it, then you can do it. And you, you could be, for every month that you spend waiting to get a job for somebody else to employ you, you could be doing Your own thing. And you could be.
All that marketing you're doing to market yourself as a candidate, you could be marketing yourself as a, as a, a career coach.
If you spent a year trying to find a role, you know how to be a career coach, you just need to look in the mirror and apply that career coaching to yourself. So you've been through that pain. I think there's lots of opportunities out there and I'm not saying everyone's cut out to be an entrepreneur. It doesn't suit everybody. And I'm not trying to. I don't want to give that. If I can. You can sort of privileged sort of mindset thing.
Yes. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.
But we have to be honest to people and say, look, actually it's not that you're not employable, you're just not packaged.
Yeah, and we should. Exactly. And that is in the package, whether we like it or not, that, you know, it, it can have a, you know, a massive impact. If you're somebody that has neglected, say, your LinkedIn profile for the last 10 years and all, you know, and let's face it, that, that, that is the window to you and it is for a lot of industries. If you're not on that, if you're not on, you know, you can't expect somebody to find you if you've not got an active profile, you know, on LinkedIn. And I do think there is definitely some, the scope for recruiters, recruitment agencies to take responsibility definitely for that coaching and give that investment. And in the same way that I think that we should be where we see, you know, hiring strategy that focuses on the potential, a lot of the potential on young people. We should be taking this approach of seeing the potential of people over the age of 50 and, you know, and really looking at, like, how can we, how can we take people from the world of work and from different industries and how can we help them to realise their potential by investing for all that time.
The vacancies are empty and we're focused, you know, we're scratching our heads wondering how the heck we retain our Gen Z's and our alphas. We could be investing in the reinvention of this talent pool here. And you know that they, they, they could be the future of our business rather than, as, you know, as, like I say, continually trying to reinvent the reel around wheel around early careers. Perhaps we need kind of like a rethink on that. But it is, it's scary. It's worrying me massively that this increase in people over the age of 50 day that I'm seeing really struggle to get back into full time work.
It's interesting to say that I spoke at a LinkedIn Talent Connect conference, I think it was back in April this year and one of the keynoters there, I can't remember her name or her company but I remember what she said basically is that we are globally the population. We're not having as many babies as we once were. In order to grow the population globally you need to have something like two babies per woman. I think we're now at 1 or 0.75 babies per woman now. Globally our newer generations, our Gen Zs and our Gen Alphas are smaller than our millennials and our Gen Xs. We will be millennials will turn 50 in 2032 or 2030, something like that. So at that point there over 50s will become the bulk of our population or working population. So our population is ageing.
We can't retire at 65 anymore. We're going to be working to 75. Retirement was designed to be something where you can't work anymore. Not to I've worked hard all my life, now I want to give up and have a rest. It was meant to be retirement pensions were all designed abound. You have to retire because you have no more capability. So I think we're going to be pushed back into that world where for the majority you're going to have to keep working as long as you can. So that means we're going to end up with a workforce that's between 25 and 75 as being our biggest area.
Why do we focus on early careers? Because we're investing. We'll get more out of them. They'll stay here for longer. Well if you're 55 you might want to work for a company for 5, 10 years. You're more likely to stay longer than, than a 20 year old who wants to career acceleration So I don't think we're look we're giving the elder generation or the Gen X and the millennials the credit where it's due. There are lived experience, capability, retraining opportunities and they've still got 10 years on them. So why?
Because it boils down the reason why I guess connects in with what we do. It's bias and stereotyping and a lack of like education and maybe we need to, we need to completely do a thing, you know, a complete turnaround of our future talent programmes. Maybe we are like looking, putting all our eggs into a basket where we're missing like this Massive opportunity. And also, you know, we maybe as, as businesses we've got a social responsibility because if we, if the biggest generation in the workforce or you know, you know, we all, we all, we're all turning, we're ageing at the same time, you know, that is a lot of economically inactive people in the uk. If we don't get on top of, I think changing our mentality and attitude towards mature workers. Mature? Is that even the right word? Experienced worker?
Vintage, Vintage, Classic.
Yeah, I don't know. Classic. I mean I'd employ me at my age, I mean, crikey, I mean, I think we said this last time, there is no I would employ the 25 year old me.
I mean I was a nightmare Even as a 40 year old me and you know, partying, drinking too much, socialising, gaming the system. I turned 60 back in January so I, I'm a vintage worker. I'm in that sort of right in that sweet spot of opportunity and I know that as a 60 year old woman who's trans, I'm way down on the employability scale now. So running my own business, really the only option I have because I can't walk into a, a hundred grand a year job, whatever I want, they're just not there and I wouldn't be considered, I'm not. If I was 35 maybe, yeah. But yeah, we've got to start looking at it.
That's such a missed opportunity, isn't it? It's a wild scenario to be in, you know that and I think that's why there's so much work to do, you know, in, in this area and we, we really need to get on top of what I see and accept experience as the, one of the most commonly accepted forms of discrimination and prejudice. Age discrimination. It is, yeah, ageism.
I mean I know as someone who's of my age that my, my day, my working day is different than it was when I was 20. My brain operates in different ways. It has activity at certain points, it does thinking at other points, it gets really creative at other points. But I've learned how to structure my day better, how to do things and have conversations and I'm more mature and more rational, more able to mentor. So I think we just have to look at that again, that career arc and that career curve, how you want to describe it and say where do people who have lived experience, are more mature, have a change in the way their brain works, their needs? We're not trying to buy houses, have families, what we're now trying to do is consolidate and stability. So we're looking for different things in our careers as well. And so we're not necessarily go getty growth people, we're maybe bedrock, we're maybe staying.
This is the thing that keeps a business together is that bedrock of people that I call us call them the steady eddies. I thought it was being a steady eddie, but maybe a wild steady Eddie. But yeah, we need these people in our organisations to, to. And I think we just need to grow the confidence of recruiters and to be able to have really sensible conversations with clients when the focus is on, you know, is on age, whether that's direct or whether it's coded language, you know, and I think there's a big, big part, you know, we need to be brave enough to be able to push back. And I know that, I know that that's not happening and it's that one thing I think applies to all of us because we all age.
I'm going to stereotype hiring managers now. In my head I'm thinking 30 to 35 year old junior manager in a department and being 30, 35, they're likely to be less age inclusive. Just purely, they might be more age biassed against somebody who is over 50 because of their own maybe imposter syndrome, their own sort of confidence. They wouldn't want someone to come in who is much older than them for feeling they'd be undermined or et cetera. There's a hell of a lot of bias going on in that, in that higher manager's sort of mind around older candidates. They would rather see someone junior to them in age and experience than someone who's more senior in age and experience. And does that, do they feel threatened, do you think?
I think I've always come from the mindset of always hire people that are better than you, you do a much better job. But yeah, I think there is, Yeah, I think there is a. It's all down, isn't it, to a lack of exposure to, you know, to age diversity and, you know, the stereotype as well. And I think there's got to be, there's got to be some investment in training and culture of an organisation. You know, it's not that just because you're of a, of a, of a certain age and experience, you know, make a decision to come in at a certain level because you've made a decision to come in at a certain level, you're not going to, you don't. Who joins an organisation going, I'm taking your job, I'm going To sneak in through the back door and I'm going to take your job, I'm going to be better than you. I mean, who'd have the energy for that?
I know, I know, yeah. And that pressure, that pressure to deliver that.
But often it's a lack of confidence in the manager and it's like, you know, how do we get rid of that? How do we enable them to see the positives of an age diverse team? How do we get them to, you know, to, to learn how to manage and communicate with, you know, different generations in their, in their, in their team? And that's why I'm just like, I'm a little bit obsessed about generational workforces at the moment because it's just, I think it's got the power to, to, to solve a lot of organisational problems, staffing problems and social challenges as well. And maybe it's on my mind because I'm massively conscious of my own age and you know, it shouldn't be, I shouldn't have to think, should I write? Okay, things don't go right with diversity and recruitment. My only option is to go and work in Morrisons. I'm working in Morrisons. It's lovely but you know, I don't, I could bring really, really bring my skills elsewhere but then would I get, would I get a job with a startup for example? I mean I'd have to probably put a bit more Botox and filler in Jo, and pretend I'm certain of the younger.
I mean what I would probably do is take the thought if I can get a job in Morrisons doing a very worthwhile role that gives me an entry into their career structure and then explore what options there were. So rather than claiming benefits I can get minimum wage doing something I can for doing a part time role there. Suddenly I've got an in in their career structure and their career development. So maybe I, maybe I think more technically I'm looking for a foothold in an organisation that I want to grow in. Maybe I, I then forge a second career in retail and become talent management or use my IT skills or get into it somehow. So I think we need to as say coach our, our candidates as to how they can use what they have got to, to leverage opportunities that are not ideal but a foothold. And I remember a friend of mine ran a recruitment business 20 years ago and it all went wrong. He went bankrupt and he ended up working for whatever it was, the Department of Social Security.
So he was working on that desk processing people's Benefit claims. And over the last 20 years, he's now grown as a civil servant and he's now a senior manager in the civil service in the heart of government. But he navigated that career growth himself from whatever that junior role is in December. I can't remember what the grades are now, but it was basically a second level upgrade. And sometimes you just gotta take your pride off the shelf.
And I was gonna say a lot of it. This potentially down to your pride and your ego, isn't it? And also this, you know, this social hierarchy of careers and jobs, you know yourself, don't you? I know that. I mean, I'm not dismissing work at Morrisons. I genuinely sometimes go there and I love the vibe so much and be like, this would be a joy to work here. It's just so community based and I just love talking to people and it'd be great. But I also know me, I know I might go in at, you know, I might be going at the kind of like shop floor level. I mean my, my roots are in retail, but I might go in at that level. But then I know what I'm like, I won't be able to stop myself.
You know, I'd be putting my ideas forward, I'd be suggesting different ideas and I'd be, you know, probably in rooms that I shouldn't be in, you know, stuff. And I think, yeah, it's partly, it's a two way thing, isn't it? It's getting people to like rethink, you know, doing a whole 360 in your career. And it might mean you have to start at a different level and you've got to leave your ego at the door and not think about that and also just focus on like what that could, what doors that could open up and then making sure that it works both ways, you know, with the employer and hiring managers. And they're a lot more open to a broader, more diverse range of candidates and talent.
If you're not careful, it's too easy to become unfit in your, in your working career. You know, if you're out of work or you're not out of work, you're looking for work for a whole year, you'll lose that sort of social interaction, you lose that sort of employee kind of vibe about you and you become less employable the more it goes on. And I think, yeah, confidence and other things. And also the world changes a lot in a year. You look at AI and all the other things that change in a year, system upgrades, whatever process you're Using you become quickly you erode your value by being out of the work environment for a while as well. And I remember my father in law, he was a firefighter for most of his career. I think he retired in his 50s and he wasn't looking to hang his hat up. And he went to the local supermarket, I think it was at Asda before it was Asda.
And he knocked on the door, the manager and said, look, I'd like to be your backpacker on the checkouts. You know, you don't have a backpacker. I noticed that sometimes you get the scalps or you get other people along at certain times of the year and they pack bags. As a shopper myself, I really like going to the checkouts where there are backpackers. I'd like to be your permanent backpacker. And they went, okay, so he gave him a trial and before long he was kind of embedded in their culture. He was the cheeky chappie, he was the, the people used to queue up, just have a conversation with him. He used to help him put the bag in the trolley, take it out to the car for them.
So it's that real value add service he used to do. And then he ended up moving to, I think it was to Morrisons or another supermarket and took his services there as well. And I think that's all died off since COVID and other things and health and safety and bag and stuff. He, yeah, he created his own career as a backpacker and he had a great time as a 55 to 65 year old. He got him out of the house, gave him purpose. And I think that's what we're talking about here is giving people passion and purpose, giving them a worthwhile. Because that's what a role gives you, is you need to feel you contribute to society in some way. You're not just sat on sofa, you get up in the morning, I've got something to live for.
That's, that's what employment gives you.
Yeah, it does, it does. And let's face it, the job, searching for a job can chip away, it can chip away from your, you know, your self esteem and your confidence and rejection and the lack of communication. It can, you know, you, you can leave your current role there, you know, from an emotional and mental health perspective and then, you know, and be much, much lower down on the scale as, as the months go by. But I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, I think from really thinking about this, it's very much, there's a lot of work to do. And I think from a, both a candidate and from a client perspective and, you know, going back to the role of, of agencies and actually I would ask the recruitment industry, what are you actively doing to create communities within that more mature, more vintage workforce? You know, I know recruitment businesses that spend money on upskilling early careers, talent and giving them qualifications in technology and et cetera, that could, that, that, that blueprint could be transferred to any community.
I've seen organisations b. Marie, other organisations talk about talent academies. So you, you, you know, if you're trying to recruit into, you need more people in this sort of sector or this part of your business. Bring people into an academy, develop them like a mature apprenticeship. You pay people properly, you pay people to learn. So you're giving them a decent wage, a living wage, not treating them as 2 pound 50 people, you're treating them as 15 pound, 20 people and then help them develop their career. And then what you're doing is you're not. Not developing people for your organisation, you're developing better people in the community.
So you may bring on 50 people in your talent development programme each year and you only want 10 of those yourself, but you've got 40 people there you've put into the community. If you and other organisations network locally and you pool your talent development programmes and you co sponsor with some NHS trusts or with some infrastructure, public services or the organisation, then you're providing a valuable community service benefit. Not just apprenticeships, but mature workforce. I think someone needs to take responsibility for that, that kind of community engagement.
I think, and also really, really have their eye on the data as well and really understand where people go and how long people stay. And I think that you could track your return on your investment and very, very easily in this particular area, with this community, Without a doubt, I've been.
Retention, retention, retention.
Yeah, yeah.
If you just look at retraining, cost, retention, empty seat stability, lost knowledge that walks out the door when it leaves, all these kind of things.
Have you seen, I mean, when you just said something then about like, you know, almost like an apprenticeship model for people looking to transition in their careers, you know, and I'm wondering, have you seen, have you, have you seen that happen anywhere?
I've seen organisations doing it. I know I've been to a lot of conferences where they put people on the stage and they talk about their own internal talent development, looking at alumni programmes, people who did work there, they keep in touch. Ten years later, where are you? You left to start a family. How's that going big career pivots, returning mothers, returning fathers, returning people in their workplace, in their 45, 50 bracket. So I think I have seen organisations start to focus on this later years talent development, mid career pivoting. So, yeah, it's being thought about. And I think when we talk about diversity in recruitment, which is what your organisation is, we can't just try and solve our bit of the problem. We've got to solve the pipeline problem as well and nurture that.
Otherwise all we're doing is. I hear so many people tell me it's so difficult to find, it's so difficult to find a great black lawyer. I said, well, you ask a black lawyer where to find a great black lawyer, he'll know or they'll know. If you ask a white lawyer where you find a great black lawyer, they may not know. So you've got to ask the people who are in those communities. So if you're not reaching deep and reaching out, you're missing out on opportunity. And I think we all want to develop talent, we all want to create the best workforce. How can we be more innovative about creating those talent pipelines in our communities and not just expect the talent to walk through the door? It doesn't.
Or if it does, we don't recognise it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't. It never, if it was that easy, our organisations would be fully representative of everybody in our communities. Right. And it's, I think that's where it lies is the fact that there has to be an investment. There needs to be resources and it needs to be, there needs to be, you know, it needs to be treated as a long term project. It's not just a, you know, you can't just put your, I always joke, you can't expect to put your job description through a gender decoder and then all of a sudden having your door being banged down by loads of like senior women wanting to work for your organisation. And you know, in some of it, I, I, you know, I've, I've worked with businesses where they're a particular employer.
I'm thinking about where they're absolutely laser focused on women. And yet when, you know, I deliver the idea around, okay, this would be a long term strategy. It's almost, we just need more money, you know, we just, you know, and I can, I can, I can tell the responses, I've just given you a lot of work to do and that's going to be really difficult. But gender decoders, as useful as they may be, they don't change the world.
Jo, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you again and I really enjoyed this conversation. So we spun it around from diversity and recruitment, from an agency perspective, an in house perspective and also the talent development of what we as talent professionals, if you like, can do to reach out to nurture better talent. So I've really enjoyed this. It's been fascinating. Thank you. How can people get a hold of you?
LinkedIn is the place that I tend to hang out. So Jo Major, you'll find me with various opinions about a lot of things.
And I follow you and yes, your opinions are great and I love, I love seeing your posts. So yeah, do follow Jo. She is amazing.
Thank you so much and right back at you. In a way, is it wrong that I'm kind of thinking, just don't be too sharp on the editing, I might want to come back.
I always welcome guests back. If you listen to this or yourself, there's a process. You click on the button says Apply, you fill the form in, you get a link back in your inbox, you click on it, you book an appointment. Let's do it. And so yeah, always. And maybe what we do, we'll do a live stream sometime. Just, we'll just get on LinkedIn and just do a live stream and we'll just do this live rather than recording.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love that.
Thank you and thank you. Take care.
See you later.
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.
Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears.
Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
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Episode Category
Primary Category: Inclusive Recruitment
Secondary Category: Age Diversity
🔖 Titles
Transforming Recruitment: Why Inclusion Must Begin with Recruiters, Not Just Hiring Managers
Beyond Box-Ticking: Embedding Real Equity and Belonging in Recruitment Practices
Rethinking Recruitment: How Agencies Can Drive Authentic Inclusion and Representation
From Transactional to Transformative: Recruiters Leading the Charge for Inclusive Workforces
Age, Bias, and Belonging: Challenging Stereotypes in Today’s Recruitment Industry
Redefining the Recruiter’s Role: True Partnerships for Inclusive Talent Pipelines
Inclusive Recruitment Demystified: From Agency Responsibilities to Nurturing Untapped Talent
Breaking the Mould: Recruiters as Catalysts for Diversity, Equity and Career Change
Candidate Coaching and Representation: The Missing Links in Inclusive Recruitment
Expanding the Talent Pool: How Recruiters Can Reinvent Career Pathways for All Ages
A Subtitle - A Single Sentence describing this episode
Jo Major explores how recruiters can become true catalysts for equity and inclusion, challenging performative practices and stereotypes while championing age diversity, candidate development, and authentic transformation across the recruitment landscape.
Episode Tags
Inclusive Recruitment, Recruitment Industry, Candidate Coaching, Diversity Equity Inclusion, Talent Pipelines, Age Diversity, Professional Development, Hiring Strategies, Social Responsibility, Agency Partnerships
Episode Summary with Intro, Key Points and a Takeaway
In this thought-provoking episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Jo Major to explore why true inclusion in the workplace must begin with recruiters. Together, they deconstruct the performative side of diversity and inclusion in recruitment, highlight why making systemic change is more than just paying lip service, and consider practical ways recruiters can influence equitable hiring. The conversation moves beyond rhetoric to uncover barriers created by conventional recruitment, the vital role of representation in the industry, and the power of broadening the recruiter’s remit from simply “filling seats” to properly consulting on organisational talent strategies. Joanne and Jo examine why focusing solely on early careers narrows the talent pipeline and challenge the industry to provide greater support for jobseekers, particularly those facing age discrimination or returning to work mid-career.
Jo Major brings over 17 years’ experience as an agency recruiter combined with her expertise in advancing equity and inclusion across recruitment practices. Founder of an organisation dedicated to transforming the industry, Jo equips both agency and in-house professionals with knowledge, tools, and the confidence required to embed inclusive practice at every stage of the hiring process. Her passion lies in inspiring recruiters to genuinely care about people and to question established methods. Jo’s perspective is shaped by her personal journey from ethical but uninformed recruitment to a deeper understanding of inclusion and accessibility, and she is committed to helping the industry move past box ticking towards real change.
Through their candid exchange, Joanne and Jo discuss generational perspectives on hiring, innovative talent pipelines such as mature apprenticeships and alumni programmes, and how recruitment agencies can act as true business partners by advocating for both client needs and candidate development. The episode urges recruiters to challenge bias, leverage technology meaningfully, and step out of industry echo chambers.
A key takeaway from this episode is the recognition that the path to genuine inclusion starts with how recruiters mirror the communities they serve and the ways they consult with their clients and candidates. Listeners will leave with a renewed sense of how recruitment, when done purposefully, can dismantle barriers, create diverse opportunities, and drive sustainable inclusion far beyond compliance.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Launched a business to support the recruitment industry due to its job market influence, leveraging 17 years of experience as an agency recruiter. Focused on inclusion and accessibility.
10:21 Recruitment is often seen as a temporary, transactional career rather than a professional, long-term choice due to its perceived ease of entry and sales-focused image, despite being more complex and technical.
13:12 Internal recruitment offers a dynamic career with many facets, unlike the perceived one-dimensional path of agency recruitment, which often lacks focus on professional development and strategic aspects like organisational design and employer branding.
18:12 Promote DE&I and proactive engagement in recruitment to address industry perceptions and client needs.
26:43 Technology and AI can revolutionise recruitment, allowing focus on human aspects. This includes roles in advisory, career pages, and social media strategy, leveraging tech experts.
33:12 Long-term unemployed women face ongoing job-seeking frustrations. Despite applying for hundreds of jobs without success, they rarely receive guidance on enhancing their marketability. There's a suggestion that recruiters should actively coach candidates, but this is not currently common practice.
36:59 People struggle with job-seeking due to financial constraints and pressure from benefits offices. They sometimes compromise on jobs to fulfil requirements, hindering their career aspirations. Career coaching and entrepreneurial thinking could help, but support is lacking.
40:46 Updating and maintaining an active LinkedIn profile is crucial for career visibility, particularly for those who have neglected it. Recruiters should coach and invest in candidates, focusing on the potential of both young individuals and those over 50, aiding career development across various industries.
50:06 The text discusses the challenges of managing age-diverse teams, highlighting the importance of understanding and valuing generational differences in the workforce. The writer is concerned about age-related biases in recruitment and the potential underutilisation of older workers' skills.
51:17 Consider entry-level roles at Morrisons for career advancement in retail and skill utilisation, instead of claiming benefits. Use existing skills to leverage opportunities as a foothold for future growth.
01:00:37 Achieving organisational diversity requires long-term investment and resources, not quick fixes.
01:02:33 Guests are welcome to return. To book, apply online, complete a form, and schedule an appointment via email. A live stream may be planned on LinkedIn.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Supporting Recruitment Industry Evolution
10:21 Reimagine Recruitment as a Career
13:12 Rethinking Recruitment Career Development
18:12 Rethinking Recruitment: DE&I as USP
26:43 AI Transforming Recruitment Processes
33:12 Unemployment Frustrations and Job Market Challenges
36:59 Career Struggles and Support Gaps
40:46 Revitalising LinkedIn for Career Growth
50:06 Embracing Age Diversity in Teams
51:17 "Career Entry via Retail Roles"
01:00:37 Long-Term Investment in Diversity
01:02:33 Streamlined Appointment Booking Process
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🎙️ This Week on Inclusion Bites: Inclusion Starts with Recruiters 🎙️
💡 What if the most powerful force for equity in our workplaces sits right at the point of entry? Tune in and discover how recruiters can ignite real change—in just 60 seconds! 💡
This week, I’m thrilled to welcome Jo Major, a trailblazer in transforming the recruitment industry. Jo equips professionals with the tools and mindset to embed equity and inclusion at every stage of hiring—challenging the box-ticking mindset and championing genuine progress.
Together, we tackle:
🔑 Shifting from “box-ticking” to purposeful, inclusive hiring—why it matters and how you can start
🔑 The hidden commercial benefits of authentic equity and inclusion in recruitment (spoiler: it’s not just about compliance!)
🔑 How agency and in-house recruiters can challenge bias, future-proof their careers, and take real responsibility for representation
Why Listen?
“Inclusion is about understanding, and this episode is packed with insights to help you create more #PositivePeopleExperiences.”
About the Podcast
As the host of Inclusion Bites, I release episodes every week to inspire, educate, and challenge perspectives on inclusion and belonging. This short clip is just a taste of what’s to come.
What’s your take? 💭 How can recruitment professionals lead the way in building more inclusive workplaces? Share your thoughts below 👇 or tell us your experience of evolving recruitment for equity.
🎧 Listen here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#PositivePeopleExperiences #SmileEngageEducate #InclusionBites #Podcasts #Shorts #InclusiveRecruitment #EDI #TalentAcquisition #WorkplaceEquity #AgencyRecruitment
Don’t forget to like, subscribe, follow, and comment – and share the love with your colleagues.
with SEE Change Happen and Jo Major
TikTok/Reels/Shorts Video Summary
Focus Keyword: Inclusive Recruitment
Video Title:
Unlocking Inclusive Recruitment: How Culture Change Starts with Us | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags:
inclusive recruitment, culture change, Positive People Experiences, inclusion, belonging, diversity, equity, agency recruiters, candidate experience, talent pipeline, workforce planning, organisational culture, inclusive hiring, recruitment industry, candidate coaching, diversity and inclusion, age diversity, career pivot, talent acquisition, professional development, representation, future of work, recruitment transformation, workplace equity, modern recruitment
Killer Quote:
"It's not that you're not employable, you're just not packaged." – Joanne Lockwood
Hashtags:
#InclusiveRecruitment, #CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #InclusionBitesPodcast, #DiversityAndInclusion, #Belonging, #RecruitmentIndustry, #TalentPipeline, #AgeDiversity, #WorkplaceEquity, #CandidateExperience, #EquityInHiring, #RepresentationMatters, #OrganisationalCulture, #TalentAcquisition, #RecruitmentTransformation, #ProfessionalDevelopment, #InclusiveHiring, #FutureOfWork, #JoanneLockwood
Summary Description:
Why listen? In this episode, I sit down with Jo Major to expose the real power of Inclusive Recruitment as the springboard for Culture Change and Positive People Experiences. We challenge the status quo, questioning outdated recruitment models and stressing that true inclusion starts with us, the recruiters and hiring professionals. Discover how focusing on diverse talent, candidate coaching, and long-term community investment leads to a more representative, dynamic workforce. If you’re passionate about driving Culture Change, nurturing belonging, and crafting Positive People Experiences in every hiring interaction, this is your toolkit. Ready to spark transformation? Tune in, reflect, and join us as we inspire change from the inside out. Don’t just talk inclusion—live it!
Outro:
Thank you, the listener, for tuning in. If you found value in this conversation, please like and subscribe to the channel for more bold discussions on inclusive cultures and Culture Change. For more insights and resources, visit the SEE Change Happen website at https://seechangehappen.co.uk and listen to the full episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast at https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive – Joanne Lockwood
ℹ️ Introduction
Welcome to this episode of Inclusion Bites, hosted by Joanne Lockwood. In today’s conversation, Joanne is joined by Jo Major, a leading force in transforming the recruitment industry with a sharp focus on equity and inclusion at every stage of hiring. Together, they unpack the critical role recruiters play as the true catalysts for inclusive workplaces—challenging outdated, transactional recruitment traditions, exposing the reality behind performative diversity claims, and highlighting both the obstacles and opportunities within agency recruitment.
Jo Major brings invaluable insight from her extensive career, sharing how shifting from a purely sales-driven approach to a truly consultative, human-centred mindset can drive real change. The discussion explores the need for recruiters to reflect the diversity of the talent pools they serve, the importance of organisations looking critically at their own demographics, and the pressing call for proper coaching and development for candidates—including mid- and late-career candidates who are too often overlooked.
Whether you’re a D&I professional, an agency recruiter, or simply passionate about building a future where everyone can thrive at work, this episode offers challenging questions, practical strategies, and a push to reimagine hiring for the modern age. Grab your headphones—this is a bold, no-fluff conversation about why true inclusion really does begin with recruiters.
💬 Keywords
inclusive recruitment, diversity and inclusion, equity, belonging, agency recruiters, in-house recruiters, recruitment industry, ethical recruitment, recruitment process, talent acquisition, unconscious bias, candidate experience, workforce planning, employer branding, EVP (employee value proposition), talent pipeline, social mobility, generational diversity, ageism, career coaching, underrepresentation, talent development, recruitment technology, AI in recruitment, candidate sourcing, skills-based hiring, professional development, employer accountability, workplace culture, retention strategies
About this Episode
About The Episode:
In this thought-provoking episode, Jo Major joins to examine the pivotal role recruiters play in shaping more inclusive hiring landscapes. Bringing a wealth of experience from both agency and in-house recruitment, she demonstrates why embedding equity and accessibility must start at the very beginning of the talent journey. Listeners will gain fresh perspectives on how recruitment can move beyond the transactional, drive systemic change, and unlock untapped potential across the workforce.
Today, we'll cover:
The necessity of evolving recruitment from a sales-driven function to one centred on consultative partnership and strategic talent development.
Challenges and opportunities in shifting the recruitment industry away from box-ticking diversity practices toward genuinely transformative inclusion.
The importance of diversifying the demographic make-up of recruiters to reflect the broader talent pool and foster organisational representation.
How recruitment professionals can, and should, proactively consult on employer branding, inclusive practices, and accessible candidate experiences.
The value in repositioning recruiters as experts in areas such as technology, social media, and workforce planning to meet the changing demands of the talent ecosystem.
Opportunities for agencies and organisations to support candidates—particularly those facing long-term unemployment or mid-career pivots—by offering coaching, reskilling, and career advice.
Why mature and experienced workers must be actively included in talent strategies, and how addressing age bias and upskilling all demographics is essential for workforce sustainability.
💡 Speaker bios
Joanne Lockwood is the passionate host of Inclusion Bites, a podcast dedicated to sparking bold conversations that ignite change. As a champion of inclusion and belonging, Joanne guides listeners through thought-provoking journeys into the heart of societal transformation. With a warm invitation to connect and reflect—whether over morning coffee or at the end of a busy day—Joanne challenges the status quo and uncovers powerful stories that inspire action. Committed to ensuring everyone not only belongs but thrives, she welcomes others to join the conversation and share their insights, fostering a true sense of community in every episode.
💡 Speaker bios
Jo Major began her career as an agency recruiter, dedicating over 17 years to the industry. Driven by a strong sense of responsibility and a keen awareness of the recruitment sector’s power and influence over job markets, Jo launched her own business with a clear mission: to support and uplift the recruitment industry. Her experience as an ethical recruiter laid a solid foundation, but it was only through her journey in business that she truly began to understand the deeper principles of inclusion, accessibility, and equity. Today, Jo continues to blend her rich recruiting background with her commitment to fostering positive change, making her a respected figure in her field.
❇️ Key topics and bullets
Certainly! Here’s a comprehensive sequence of the topics covered in the transcript from the “Inclusion Bites Podcast” episode: Inclusion Starts with Recruiters, along with sub-topic bullets for each main area:
1. Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
Welcome and tone-setting for "Inclusion Bites"
Introduction of Joanne Lockwood (Host) and Jo Major (Guest)
Acknowledgement of a previous recording mishap and opportunity to refresh the conversation
Context of current events and swiftly changing dynamics in recruitment and inclusion
2. Jo Major’s Professional Background and Motivation
Jo Major’s experience as an agency recruiter (over 17 years)
Motivation for focusing on equity and inclusion within recruitment agencies
The ethical foundation versus technical knowledge about inclusion
3. Ethical Intentions vs Real-world Practice in Recruitment Agencies
Ethical ambitions of recruiters versus performative, box-ticking behaviour
Influence of client demands and commercial pressures on diversity and inclusion (D&I) priorities
Challenges of integrating D&I into traditional recruitment metrics (e.g., time-to-hire, speed over quality)
Constraints faced by recruiters in altering hiring models and processes
4. The Recruitment Industry’s Internal Diversity Challenges
Disparity between the diversity of the candidate pool and that within recruitment organisations
Lack of representation as a barrier to recruiting diverse talent for clients
Historical emphasis on sales skills versus evolving need for strategic, consultative talent partners
The evolving role of recruiters as business partners and consultants
5. Stereotypes and Professional Identity in Recruitment
Recruitment as a career people often "fall into" rather than actively pursue
The sector’s transactional reputation versus the technical, relational work involved
The need to professionalise recruitment as a distinct, respected career path
6. The Evolving Spectrum of Recruitment Roles and Skills
Distinction between agency and in-house recruitment career paths
Importance of skills such as organisational design, workforce planning, and employer branding
Sourcing, talent planning, and candidate management as facets of a modern recruitment strategy
The gap between aspirational “consultative” recruitment and day-to-day transactional practices
7. Relationship Dynamics: Recruiters, Clients, and Hiring Managers
Perceptions of recruitment agencies as mere “CV sources” by clients
Barriers to accessing hiring managers and providing truly consultative advice
The need for a shift towards strategic advisory roles, not just transactional fulfilment
8. The Role of External and Internal Partnerships in Talent Acquisition
Exploring the ideal engagement: recruiters as trusted business partners
The potential and limitations of Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO)
Opportunities for expanded service offerings: recruitment tech, social media, DE&I advisory
9. Recruitment Technology and Future Skills
Importance of embracing AI, recruitment tech, and social media tools
The risks of being left behind by technology (e.g., ATS, AI integrations)
Upskilling recruiters to be tech-savvy consultants for clients
10. Recruitment Marketing and Reaching Diverse Candidate Pools
Modern candidate engagement via platforms like TikTok and Snapchat
The necessity of meeting candidates “where they are” rather than relying on traditional channels
Generational differences in buying and selling behaviour
The significance of “getting out of the recruitment industry echo chamber”
11. Supporting Candidates: Coaching and Career Development
The scarcity of support for long-term unemployed or underrepresented candidates
The limitations of current recruiter-candidate interactions
Shining examples of external coaching (e.g., Faith Phillips Jones)
The potential for agencies to offer paid or free career coaching and candidate upskilling
12. Systemic Barriers and Societal Structures Affecting Employment
Constraints imposed by government initiatives, benefits, and local training programmes
The tension between immediate employment needs and long-term career goals
Encouragement for entrepreneurial thinking and career pivots
13. Age Diversity, Career Longevity, and the “Vintage Workforce”
Discussion on challenges faced by over-50s and other experienced workers
Societal and organisational biases against mature candidates
The demographic reality of an ageing population and shrinking entry-level cohorts
The importance of recognising and investing in experienced talent
The “retirement myth” and changing expectations about working lives
14. Tackling Bias and Reframing Talent Programmes
Addressing bias and stereotype barriers for hiring managers and organisations
Training and cultural change to foster age-inclusive hiring
Rethinking future talent strategies to include experienced workers alongside early careers
15. Community-driven and Collaborative Talent Development
The case for talent academies and cross-organisation talent pools
Mature apprenticeships and paid development pathways for later-career workers
Community benefits of upskilling and investing in underrepresented/excluded groups
16. Key Takeaways and Final Reflections
The multi-dimensional challenge of inclusion in recruitment: agency, client, and candidate perspectives
The ongoing need for innovation and accountability in diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts
Call for deeper industry reflection and community action
17. Closing: Invitation to Continue the Conversation
How to contact Joanne Lockwood and participate in the Inclusion Bites Podcast
Encouragement for listeners to share reflections and apply to be future guests
This breakdown provides a clear structure of the podcast episode’s discussion, capturing the nuanced journey from industry introspection through to broader reflections on inclusion, representation, and the future of recruitment.
The Hook
Ever wondered why the RIGHT person never seems to land the job? Or why your “inclusive” hiring isn’t delivering REAL impact? The secret lies in a place you probably haven’t looked—and it might just rewrite everything you know about recruitment + belonging…
Think recruitment is just CVs, interviews, and a quick handshake? Think again. The future is about smashing echo chambers, unlearning “tick-box” inclusion, and flipping the script on who really belongs at work. Ready for a recruitment reality check you won’t forget?
“Representation is a real challenge”—but what if the biggest barrier to building inclusive teams sits at the VERY FIRST STEP? Dive in and discover the blind spots EVERY impactful leader is overlooking when it comes to building extraordinary, diverse teams…
Feeling stuck with the same talent pools—and even emptier promises of diversity? Here’s what recruiters and hiring managers don’t want you to notice: inclusion isn’t an afterthought. It’s the engine beneath every truly innovative business. Time for a mind-shift?
Let’s get honest: How inclusive is your hiring… REALLY? Beneath the buzzwords and box-ticking, what’s actually happening behind closed doors of recruitment? The uncomfortable truths (and the power moves you’re missing) start HERE.
🎬 Reel script
On this episode of Inclusion Bites, we explored why true workplace inclusion must start with recruiters. Jo Major joined me to reveal how the recruitment industry holds real power to drive equity—if only it moves beyond box-ticking and challenges bias at every step. We discussed the need for recruiters to consult strategically, harness technology, and elevate talent from all backgrounds, including experienced and overlooked candidates. The message is clear: inclusion isn’t a buzzword—it’s a responsibility for changing how we hire and who we bring along for the journey. Ready to be part of real change? #InclusionBites
🗞️ Newsletter
Subject: Inclusion Starts with Recruiters: Rethinking Talent, Bias & Opportunity – Inclusion Bites Podcast #173
Hello Inclusion Bites Community,
We’re thrilled to bring you our latest thought-provoking episode: "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters"—a candid, challenging conversation guaranteed to spark new ideas around inclusive talent strategies.
🎙️ About this Episode:
Host Joanne Lockwood (she/her) is joined by Jo Major (she/her), industry transformer and inclusion advocate, to dissect the pivotal yet often overlooked role of recruiters in shaping truly equitable workplaces.
Key Talking Points:
Why Recruiters Must Lead Change: Jo Major spotlights the responsibility – and unique power – recruiters possess in influencing who gets seen, heard, and hired.
Beyond Tick-Box Diversity: We examine the risks of performative inclusion and token gestures, calling for meaningful, system-level transformation in recruitment models.
Representation Matters: Despite recruiters accessing diverse candidate pools, why do agencies remain so homogenous? We tackle the pipeline myths, recruitment culture, and professionalisation needed to break the cycle.
Future-Proofing the Industry: Joanne and Jo probe the growing need for tech-savvy, consultative recruiters who offer more than placement – think workforce planning, employer branding, and talent pipelining.
Candidate Coaching & Mature Talent: We lay bare the challenges facing long-term unemployed candidates, especially those over 50. How can agencies better support diverse jobseekers and reroute talent from untapped communities?
Challenging Ageism & Career Stereotypes: Expect frank discussion around the urgent need to rethink outdated assumptions about older applicants—and to invest in multigenerational workforce programmes.
A Fresh Take on Accountability
Rather than “talking the talk,” Jo Major argues for recruiters to look inwards: Does your own organisation reflect the diversity you seek to deliver for clients? Authentic change starts at home.
Unlocking Real Inclusion:
Embrace the role of trusted adviser, not just CV collector.
Engage proactively with clients on equity, tech, and candidate experience.
Rethink professional pathways for both young entrants and seasoned talent—no more “one-size-fits-all” career journeys.
Your Voice Matters!
Have a story or burning question? We want to hear from you. Email Joanne directly at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, or consider joining a future episode.
Listen Now:
Catch this episode, and all previous episodes, at Inclusion Bites Podcast.
Thank you for being part of this movement—together we’re redefining workplace inclusion, one bold conversation at a time.
With purpose,
Joanne Lockwood and The Inclusion Bites Podcast Team
#InclusionBites #Recruitment #EquityInAction #DiversityMatters #Belonging
Follow us for more bite-sized inclusion insights and share this newsletter with your network!
🧵 Tweet thread
🧵 1/ Are recruiters the real gatekeepers of inclusion? In the latest #InclusionBites podcast, @JoLockwoodUK chats with @JoMajor about challenging the status quo in recruitment. The message is clear: Inclusion starts at the point of hire, and recruiters hold the keys.👇
2/ Jo Major highlights a crucial point: recruiters have not just the responsibility, but the power to open – or shut – doors to opportunity. Yet too often, so-called “inclusive” agencies are ticking boxes, rather than driving real change. #EquityInRecruitment
3/ Why is the recruitment industry still so monocultural? We’re sourcing diverse talent for clients… yet agencies themselves often lack diversity, creating invisible barriers and missed perspectives within the process. Representation matters everywhere.
4/ Many recruiters want to make a difference, but face huge challenges: time constraints, outdated metrics, and a transactional environment focused solely on speed over quality. Breaking the cycle means changing both culture AND business incentives. #InclusionMatters
5/ ➡️ Joanne asks: Are you practising what you preach? If agencies can’t evidence their own inclusive practices, how can they credibly advise clients? Start with self-reflection – diversity at the table means better outcomes for everyone.
6/ The future: Recruiters shouldn’t be just CV-shifters – they need to act as business partners, pressing clients to rethink “who” and “how” they hire. Consult, don’t just comply. Value lies in advice, not just filling empty seats. #RecruitmentRevolution
7/ But let’s flip the script: Who supports the candidates on the fringes? The podcast shines a spotlight on the long-term unemployed and over-50s often ignored in the hiring pipeline. Upskilling, coaching, and championing their stories is not just ethical, it’s essential.
8/ “Early Careers” grab all the corporate attention, but we’re facing an ageing workforce. Ignoring “vintage” (classic!) talent is not only short-sighted, it’s bad business. Tomorrow’s most loyal, experienced employees are already here – if we’re willing to value them.
9/ Recruitment needs a reset: Community talent academies, cross-sector upskilling, proactive engagement on platforms where candidates actually are (yes, TikTok and Snapchat!). Are agencies ready to lead this shift, or will they be left behind?
10/ The call to action is urgent and collective: Recruiters, hiring managers, employers, and candidates all have a role in transforming our approach. If we want a workforce that truly reflects society, we can’t keep doing what we’ve always done.
11/ Dive deeper into these bold ideas and more with Inclusion Bites, hosted by @Jo_LockwoodUK. Subscribe and start your journey towards an inclusive future 👉 https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
🔁 RT to keep the inclusion conversation going! #Diversity #Recruitment #Belonging #InclusionBites
Guest's content for their marketing
Article: My Guest Experience on the Inclusion Bites Podcast — “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters”
I recently had the pleasure of joining Joanne Lockwood on the Inclusion Bites Podcast for an episode titled “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters.” It was a genuinely thought-provoking discussion that spotlighted not just the state of inclusion in recruitment, but also the nuanced, often untapped potential recruiters hold as catalysts for real, lasting change.
Throughout my career, I've championed the idea that equity and inclusion aren’t simply HR soundbites or boxes to tick. They are core values that must underpin every stage of the recruitment process. On this episode, Joanne and I dived deep into the recruitment industry’s unique responsibilities—and challenges—when it comes to transforming workplaces into spaces where everyone can genuinely thrive.
A key highlight from our conversation was addressing the frequent disconnect between the ‘talk’ and the ‘walk’ of inclusion. As I shared on the show, while many recruitment agencies declare themselves diverse and inclusive, it often risks being performative unless backed by concrete, strategic action. We critically discussed how the sector can move beyond tokenism—pushing organisations to interrogate their internal practices before promising inclusive talent pipelines to clients. After all, authentic inclusion is about matching values and practices, not simply marketing claims.
What made the conversation particularly dynamic was our exploration of the evolving role of the recruiter. It’s no longer just about sales targets and time-to-hire metrics. Today’s best recruiters are strategic business partners, deeply invested in understanding their clients’ employer brands, workforce planning, and inclusion aspirations. Yet, as we acknowledged, this evolution demands a seismic shift in both mindset and capability—from upskilling on AI and recruitment tech to understanding generational shifts in the workforce.
We also addressed head-on the silent crisis of representation within the recruitment industry itself. For an industry with such a rich, diverse potential talent pool, too often recruitment teams remain homogenous, inadvertently perpetuating the exclusion they're tasked to disrupt. We examined systemic barriers, from outdated perceptions of the recruiter’s role to the underutilisation of experienced or “mature” talent, and called for bold changes to professionalise recruitment as a career choice open to all backgrounds.
One of the most powerful threads running through the episode was the idea that inclusion doesn’t begin in boardrooms or DE&I off-sites—it starts right at the very frontline: with recruiters. From supporting candidates who have been sidelined by the system, to proactively consulting with hiring teams about equitable practices—recruiters are uniquely placed to spark institutional change.
Speaking with Joanne was energising; her commitment to disrupting norms and uplifting positive people experiences resonates strongly with my own values. We tackled tough questions, challenged outdated paradigms, and outlined practical steps recruiters and organisations can take—whether that’s investing in skills-based hiring, harnessing social media to reach new talent pools, or building targeted talent academies for both early careers and midlife pivoters.
If you’re interested in moving past the rhetoric of inclusion and want to be part of shaping a recruitment culture that truly champions equity, I highly recommend listening to this episode. You’ll find actionable insights, candid stories, and, I hope, encouragement to think differently about the power we hold as recruiters.
You can listen to my episode on the Inclusion Bites Podcast here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
Let’s keep the conversation going—because inclusion genuinely does start with us.
#InclusionStartsWithRecruiters #InclusionBites #EquityInHiring
Pain Points and Challenges
Pain Points & Challenges from "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters" — and How to Address Them
The episode "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters" on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, featuring Jo Major and host Joanne Lockwood, tackles a number of critical issues facing the recruitment industry today. Here's a focused analysis of the pain points that emerged, along with actionable solutions for each.
1. Performative Approach to Inclusion and Box-Ticking
Pain Point:
Recruiters and agencies often treat diversity and inclusion (D&I) as a ‘tick-box’ exercise, prompted reactively by client demands rather than genuine commitment. There is an over-reliance on surface-level statements (e.g., “We are a diverse and inclusive organisation”) without embedding meaningful change in processes.
Solution:
Embed inclusion as a core competency: Agencies should integrate inclusive policies into every step of the recruitment process, not merely when required by a client.
Internal audit and accountability: Use regular, transparent audits of your own demographic make-up, hiring practices, and candidate experience—sharing results to build trust.
Continuous education: Develop in-house D&I champions who drive cultural buy-in, rather than relegating inclusion to a compliance mandate.
2. Limited Representation & Homogeneity Among Recruiters
Pain Point:
Recruitment agencies often lack internal diversity, failing to represent the varied communities they seek to serve. This undermines credibility, reduces talent attraction, and perpetuates monocultural workplace environments.
Solution:
Targeted outreach: Review and update recruitment strategies to intentionally attract candidates from underrepresented backgrounds.
Inclusive workplace culture: Foster a genuinely inclusive culture where people of diverse backgrounds feel valued and able to progress.
Leverage lived experience: Position diverse recruiters as ambassadors, using their insight to connect with wider candidate pools.
3. Transactional Relationships with Clients; Lack of Strategic Partnership
Pain Point:
Recruiters often engage with clients transactionally, filling roles based on minimal information, depriving clients of strategic talent insight. This leaves agencies vulnerable to being replaced by technology or in-house talent teams.
Solution:
Consultative positioning: Elevate recruiter-client engagement from role fulfilment to strategic partnership. Offer data-driven insights on workforce planning, employer branding, and D&I best practice.
Proactive value-add: Conduct unsolicited audits of clients’ job pages or job descriptions, and provide recommendations—even unprompted—to demonstrate expertise and commitment.
Educate clients: Run workshops for clients’ hiring managers on inclusive hiring, mitigating bias, and the value of diverse teams.
4. Outdated, Sales-Led Recruitment Models
Pain Point:
The agency recruitment archetype remains stuck in ‘sales mode’, undervaluing the technical and strategic facets of the profession. This perception deters diverse talent from entering the sector and stifles professionalisation.
Solution:
Professional development: Offer structured career progression pathways, professional qualifications, and development in areas beyond sales (e.g., recruitment technology, employer branding, D&I).
Broaden the agency model: Integrate varied roles such as talent marketing strategists, D&I consultants, social media specialists, and career coaches.
Embrace technology as an enabler: Use AI and automation to streamline admin tasks, freeing recruiters to focus on human-centred activities.
5. Lack of Support for Candidates—especially the Long-Term Unemployed or “Vintage” Workers
Pain Point:
There is minimal proactive support for jobseekers, particularly those long-term unemployed or aged 50+. This group faces amplified challenges: lack of upskilling, confidence erosion, career stagnation, and ageist bias from hiring managers.
Solution:
Candidate coaching and market readiness: Offer workshops or 1:1 coaching in CV writing, social media presence, interview technique, lateral job searching, and confidence building, tailored for mature candidates.
Talent academies: Create internal or collaborative talent academies to retrain and reintegrate experienced professionals, supporting returners and career pivots.
Advocacy: Encourage recruiters to champion the value of experienced workers, challenge clients' age bias, and promote multi-generational workforces as crucial to business success.
6. Hiring Manager Bias and Amateur Hiring Practices
Pain Point:
Hiring managers, often with little training and only sporadic recruitment experience, unknowingly perpetuate bias—particularly against older candidates and those from non-traditional backgrounds.
Solution:
Training for hiring managers: Develop and deliver ongoing training for hiring managers on reducing bias, inclusive interviewing, and the value of cognitive diversity.
Promote professional hirers: Advocate for specialist in-house recruiters (TA business partners) who possess current expertise and can act as impartial facilitators, rather than leaving recruitment to department heads.
7. Siloed Approaches to Diversity—Focusing Narrowly on Early Careers
Pain Point:
Many organisations focus D&I efforts primarily on early careers recruitment, neglecting upskilling, retention, and re-entry of mid and late-career professionals. This limit reduces the achievable pool of talent and overlooks the changing demographics of the workforce.
Solution:
Broaden internal D&I strategies: Design future talent planning that includes apprenticeships, returnships, and career pivot programmes for experienced professionals, not just entry-level staff.
Community engagement: Partner with local organisations, professional bodies, and other employers to co-create pathways for mature candidates and underrepresented groups to access new sectors.
Measure and celebrate impact: Track and publicise retention rates, internal mobility, and career progression of employees from diverse age, gender, or ethnic backgrounds.
In summary:
The Inclusion Bites episode lays bare the necessity for recruitment to break free of transactional, performative approaches and work with both clients and candidates to deliver meaningful, strategic, and inclusive outcomes. Key to this is investment in the professionalisation of recruiters, a genuine commitment to D&I (beyond the box-tick), close partnership with clients, and fostering a culture of upskilling, adaptability, and community engagement.
Further engagement:
For more actionable insights, resources, and to join the ongoing conversation on driving change in recruitment inclusion, visit: Inclusion Bites Podcast or contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Questions Asked that were insightful
Certainly! Drawing from the transcript of "Inclusion Bites Podcast — Episode 173: Inclusion Starts with Recruiters," several questions prompted particularly insightful and thought-provoking responses from Jo Major and Joanne Lockwood. These can form the basis of an engaging and practical FAQ series for your audience. Here are suggested FAQs, each grounded in specific exchanges and themes from the interview:
FAQ SERIES FOR INCLUSION BITES: INCLUSION STARTS WITH RECRUITERS
1. Why does inclusion need to start with recruitment agencies, and what unique responsibilities do they have?
Recruitment agencies act as critical gatekeepers to the job market. Jo Major points out how these agencies hold immense power and responsibility—not only by broadening access to opportunities but also by modelling inclusive and equitable hiring practices. She emphasises that the standard model, which often favours speed and quantity, can unintentionally exclude diverse talent unless inclusion is embedded at every stage.
2. Are recruitment organisations genuinely committed to diversity and inclusion, or is it mainly performative?
Both Jo Major and Joanne Lockwood address the sometimes superficial nature of D&I commitments, highlighting “box-ticking” and performative behaviours within the industry. They note that while some agencies adopt D&I language in their branding, many are compelled to act only when clients hold them accountable or business is at risk.
3. Why does the recruitment industry often lack representation, even though it manages diverse talent pools?
A key issue discussed is the industry’s own limited demographic diversity. Despite engaging with a wide candidate base, recruitment businesses themselves often do not reflect these communities. This disparity is linked to traditional hiring models, cultural stereotypes, and a sales-focused legacy that has shaped the sector’s image.
4. Why do people not aspire to recruitment as a long-term career, and how does this impact diversity?
Jo Major describes recruitment as a field people tend to “fall into,” noting the lack of professionalisation and long-term career pathways. This impacts the industry’s ability to attract a broad range of talent and foster meaningful diversity, as recruitment is often perceived as temporary or purely transactional.
5. How could external recruitment agencies better support and consult their clients on inclusion?
The conversation highlights missed opportunities for recruiters to act as strategic partners, not just suppliers. Jo Major advocates for taking a consultative approach—auditing client job descriptions, advising on employer branding, and proactively introducing inclusive recruitment strategies. Doing so would move the relationship beyond merely providing CVs and toward genuine talent consultancy.
6. Should agencies coach and upskill candidates who are struggling in the market?
A particularly insightful discussion focuses on the lack of in-depth candidate support, especially for long-term unemployed or mature workers. Both speakers articulate the value in recruiters acting as career coaches to help individuals upskill, adjust expectations, and repackage their personal brands, thereby increasing employability.
7. How can we address the challenges faced by older jobseekers and promote age inclusion?
Ageism emerges as one of the most insidious and under-addressed barriers within recruitment. The speakers discuss the need to invest in the retraining and development of older workers, challenge stereotypes among hiring managers, and revisit the structures of early-career and talent development programmes to include those with substantial experience.
8. What is the role of technology and AI in creating more inclusive recruitment practices?
There’s consensus that leveraging AI and recruitment tech can free up time for the human aspects of recruitment—relationship building, consultancy, and candidate care. However, Jo Major cautions that these tools are sometimes resisted, and stresses the need for agencies to develop technical expertise as a value-add for clients.
9. How can recruitment businesses create true community impact beyond filling vacancies?
Both guests propose that agencies and employers collaborate on talent academies, mature apprenticeships, and cross-organisational development schemes—contributing to local labour markets, not just individual business needs. They advocate for a broader social responsibility, with agencies tracking not only placements but long-term population outcomes.
These FAQs encapsulate the most compelling exchanges from the episode and serve as practical touchpoints for your audience, with each underpinned by real-world expertise and lived experience shared throughout the discussion. They can easily be expanded into articles, resource guides, or interactive content for the Inclusion Bites community.
Blog article based on the episode
Inclusion Starts with Recruiters: Transforming Recruitment from Gatekeeping to Gateways
Inclusion. It’s the buzzword emblazoned across every modern careers page. But how often does it ripple from glossy brochure into genuine change? If you ask recruitment industry change-maker Jo Major, whose insights fuel episode 173 of the Inclusion Bites Podcast (“Inclusion Starts with Recruiters”), the answer is simple: Not often enough—and almost never by accident.
Read on if you’re ready to confront uncomfortable truths, reimagine recruitment, and build bridges for untapped talent pools. Because, as Joanne Lockwood and Jo Major reveal, the future belongs to recruiters brave enough to disrupt how we hire.
The Inconvenient Truth: Recruitment Still Gatekeeps
It’s tempting to celebrate the messaging. Agencies and talent teams confidently declare themselves “diverse and inclusive.” Yet, as Jo Major observes, much of this is performative: “I think the will is there... But there is a lot of talk. There is some box ticking stuff.”
This performativity, she underscores, is not always malicious. Recruiters are often measured by KPIs like time-to-hire and placements per month—not slow, deliberate, inclusive processes. “It’s not supportive of a proper inclusive recruitment process unless you’re doing a retained model. Otherwise, it’s time pressure, minimal resource, and maximum output.”
But here’s the crux: When recruiters merely race through these motions, they default to familiar habits and networks. Consequently, the same types of candidate advance, while diverse talent remains overlooked. Agencies become transactional “CV shifters” rather than trusted partners. The result? Organisations fail to reflect the communities they serve—and untold potential never makes it past the first filter.
What’s the Root Cause? Stereotypes, Metrics, and Missed Opportunities
Why does this persist, even as we know better? The episode dissects three interlocking forces:
Outdated Stereotypes of Recruiters
Jo Major laments, “We built this caricature of ourselves—salespeople just moving people around.” This perception deters fresh thinkers and sustains a monocultural pipeline. Why don’t people choose recruitment as a career? Because we see it as transactional, not professional or purposeful.Short-Term Metrics
The recruitment industry’s obsession with time-to-hire, placements, and margin works against embedding equity, diversity, and inclusion (EDI). Recruiters are rarely resourced—or incentivised—to reimagine job briefs, challenge hiring manager bias, or invest in underrepresented talent.Lack of Strategic Partnerships
Agencies often lack access to true decision-makers, instead serving only immediate hiring needs. Joanne Lockwood frames this powerfully: “Most hiring managers are accidental recruiters. They hire infrequently, aren’t match fit, and don’t understand organisational design, talent mobility, or inclusive branding.” If recruiters aren’t at the table when these strategies are built, neither is inclusion.
Actionable Solutions: Making Inclusion the Core Business of Recruitment
Enough diagnosis—the million-pound challenge is how to shift from intention to action. Here’s what Jo Major and Joanne Lockwood urge agencies, TA teams, and business leaders to do:
1. Redefine the Recruiter’s Role
The Problem: Recruitment is locked in a transactional, sales-based cycle, excluding many (and stifling careers).
The Solution: Recruiters must evolve into genuine consultants. This means:
Developing expertise not just in sourcing, but in workforce planning, organisational design, and employer branding.
Challenging both clients and candidates: interrogate requirements, scrutinise job briefs, and push back when “culture fit” is code for bias.
2. Review Your Own House First
The Problem: Agencies claim diversity without reflecting it.
The Solution: Jo Major emphasises, “If you’re selling inclusion, you must live it.” Audit your own demographics and practices. Do you hire and progress people from many backgrounds? Does your board reflect the community? Is promotion culture inclusive?
3. Transform Candidate Care into Talent Development
The Problem: Candidates—especially the long-term unemployed, older workers, and underrepresented groups—receive scant career development from agencies.
The Solution: Move beyond “CV shuffling.” Offer workshops, coaching, and transparent feedback. Develop talent academies for mature candidates, not just graduates. As Joanne Lockwood asserts, “You’re packaging people, not just moving products. Change how you coach marketability, confidence, and career pivots.”
4. Embrace Technology and Data for Inclusion
The Problem: Many agencies lag in leveraging recruitment tech and AI—or worse, ban tools out of fear.
The Solution: Upskill all staff in AI, digital search, and inclusive comms. Use tech to track hiring patterns, gaps, and retention. Build data-driven diversity strategies, not just policies.
5. Meet Candidates Where They Are
The Problem: Relying on job boards or LinkedIn alone locks out parts of the talent pool.
The Solution: As Jo Major notes, “If you don’t use TikTok, Snapchat, or creative digital outreach, you’ll never reach the next generation of talent.” Diversify your attraction methods. Consult with clients and candidates to understand where their talent communities live and interact.
6. Champion the Invisible Workforce
The Problem: The focus on early careers ignores rapidly growing demographics. With declining birth rates and increasing longevity, over-50s will soon make up the largest chunk of the working population.
The Solution: Invest in retraining schemes, midlife apprenticeships, and alumni networks to retain and redeploy experienced workers.
The Call to Action: Inclusion is a Process, Not a Checkbox
Episode 173, Inclusion Starts with Recruiters, is more than a discussion; it’s a wake-up call. The new breed of recruiter is a business partner, coach, data analyst, and fierce advocate for social mobility. As Jo Major’s career and commentary inspire, recruitment must move beyond box-ticking to become the catalyst for authentic inclusion.
It’s time to hold up the mirror:
Recruiters: Are you a gatekeeper or a gateway? What are you doing, genuinely, to break down barriers and develop overlooked talent?
Hiring Managers and Business Leaders: Are you structuring your talent ecosystem for diversity, or just inheriting bias from “the way we’ve always done it”?
Allies and Jobseekers: Are you asking your recruiters for development, feedback, and new ways to market yourself?
Real inclusion starts with you—the recruiter who dares to interrogate, innovate, and invest.
Listen to the full episode—Inclusion Starts with Recruiters—featuring the remarkable Jo Major, over at Inclusion Bites.
Ready to break the mould? Connect with Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and join the conversation that’s setting the new standard for recruitment. Because enduring equity isn’t just a trend—it’s the future of talent, and the heart of your business.
The standout line from this episode
The standout line from this episode is:
"We are not representing the communities that we're here to serve and to recruit for as our clients and to place. And I think that creates a lot of invisible barriers for the recruitment industry and our success."
This succinctly captures the episode’s central theme on the vital importance of authentic representation and the unseen barriers that arise when recruitment doesn’t embody true inclusivity.
❓ Questions
Certainly! Here are 10 discussion questions based on this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters”:
What barriers exist within the recruitment industry that make meaningful inclusion challenging, particularly regarding speed and commercial pressures?
Jo Major suggests that ethical intentions alone are not enough for genuine inclusivity—what practical steps can recruiters take to bridge this gap?
In what ways can recruitment agencies shift from a “box ticking” approach to embedding authentic diversity, equity, and inclusion in their processes?
Why does representation remain a persistent challenge in recruitment, despite a diverse pool of candidates, and how might this be addressed?
How might the professional development and role pathways within agency recruitment be broadened to create more inclusive and sustainable careers?
To what extent does the transactional nature of recruiter–client relationships limit recruiters’ ability to act as true business partners and consultants?
How can agencies better support candidates—especially those who are long-term unemployed or part of underrepresented groups—to improve their “market readiness” and job search outcomes?
What are the risks if the recruitment industry fails to evolve in response to technological advancements such as AI and social media-driven talent engagement?
How should organisations re-think their focus on early careers talent when over-50s are becoming an ever-larger segment of the workforce?
Given the discussion around age bias and multi-generational workforces, how can recruiters and employers challenge stereotypes and create supportive workplace cultures for experienced workers?
These questions should spark thoughtful discussion on the structural, cultural and strategic levers needed to advance inclusion within recruitment and talent management.
FAQs from the Episode
FAQ: Inclusion Starts with Recruiters — Insights from The Inclusion Bites Podcast (Episode 173)
1. Why is the recruitment industry pivotal to inclusion and equity?
The recruitment industry holds significant responsibility and influence within the job market. As gatekeepers to employment, recruiters—especially those in agencies—shape which candidates are represented, championed, and ultimately hired. By embedding genuine equity and inclusion practices at every recruitment stage, the industry can dismantle barriers, broaden opportunities, and help ensure workplaces reflect the diversity of the communities they serve.
2. What challenges do agency recruiters face in implementing inclusive practices?
Agency recruiters are often measured and rewarded based on speed, time-to-hire, and placement volume. This operational pressure restricts the capacity to slow down, reflect, and integrate more inclusive practices; there’s a tension between commercial demands and the need for deeper, more human-centred approaches. In addition, many recruiters are not trained in the technicalities of inclusion, accessibility, and equity, which hampers their confidence in changing existing processes.
3. Is inclusive recruitment just a box-ticking exercise for many agencies?
Too often, diversity and inclusion are treated as performative exercises—statements included on websites, or actions undertaken only after clients demand demonstrable inclusive capability. Some agencies adopt a surface-level approach, focusing on compliance or market trends, rather than genuinely transforming their hiring models or internal cultures.
4. Are recruitment agencies reflective of the diverse talent pools they serve?
Despite access to highly diverse candidate pools, recruitment agencies themselves often remain demographically homogenous. This lack of internal diversity impedes their ability to fully represent or understand underrepresented groups, resulting in invisible barriers and narrowing the possibilities for both the agency and its clients.
5. Why is recruitment typically seen as a career people ‘fall into’?
Recruitment has often been framed as a temporary, transactional, or sales-driven job, rather than a consultative or strategic career. Agency culture frequently values sales ability above advisory capability, leading to a narrow professional identity that rarely appeals to those seeking long-term, skill-based development.
6. How can recruiters move towards being valued consultants, not just intermediaries?
To be valued as true business partners, recruiters must engage strategically with clients. This entails going beyond fulfilling job briefs to advising on employer branding, workforce planning, inclusive hiring, and talent development. Recruiters should take proactive steps, such as reviewing clients’ job descriptions for bias, critiquing careers pages, and initiating conversations about long-term demographic and skills strategy.
7. What is the role of technology and social media in modern recruitment inclusion?
Recruitment is increasingly shaped by technology and evolving communication tools. Social media platforms like TikTok, Snapchat, and LinkedIn are crucial for reaching younger, more diverse talent pools. At the same time, adopting AI-driven tools and automation can streamline aspects of the recruitment process, freeing up time for recruiters to focus on the ‘human’ element—relationship-building, coaching, and strategy.
8. Should recruiters support candidates as coaches or mentors?
Traditional agency models often neglect candidate development and support, focusing instead on transactional placements. There is growing recognition that recruiters can add value by coaching candidates—helping them with personal branding, CV improvement, interview skills, and career planning, particularly for those who are long-term unemployed or underrepresented.
9. Why is age diversity, especially in candidates over 50, an urgent focus area?
With ageing populations and declining birth rates, over-50s will soon constitute a much larger proportion of the workforce. However, this cohort often faces significant recruitment barriers due to bias and stereotyping. Emphasising their lived experience, mentoring ability, and reliability is essential for organisational sustainability and for nurturing multi-generational, resilient teams.
10. What tangible steps can agencies and organisations take to develop underrepresented talent?
Agencies and employers can invest in talent academies, reskilling programmes, and ‘mature apprenticeships’—not just for early-careers talent, but for experienced professionals seeking career pivots. By pooling resources locally and co-sponsoring community programmes, organisations address both immediate skill shortages and longer-term inclusion.
11. How can recruiters transform the perception and culture of their own industry?
Internal diversity—both demographic and of thought—is key. Recruitment businesses should broaden entry points, invest in ongoing professional development across the career arc, and foster a participative, learning-focused workplace culture. They must challenge stereotypes, champion equity at all levels, and position themselves as innovators—not just sales intermediaries—in the talent ecosystem.
12. Where can I learn more or engage with the Inclusion Bites community?
You can join the conversation, share your thoughts, or suggest yourself as a guest via email at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Listen to this and other episodes at Inclusion Bites.
Inclusion Bites continues to uncover, challenge, and inspire action at every level of workplace culture. Subscribe to remain part of these bold, change-making discussions.
Tell me more about the guest and their views
The guest in this episode is Jo Major, an established figure in the recruitment sector who is leading transformation by championing equity, diversity, and inclusion (EDI) within recruitment processes. Her approach is rooted in both lived experience (over 17 years as an agency recruiter) and a mission-driven outlook to help the recruitment industry understand—and operationalise—inclusive principles at every stage of hiring.
Jo Major’s Key Views:
Recruitment’s Power and Responsibility:
Jo believes the recruitment industry wields significant influence over the job market, having a duty—and also the potential—to steer organisations towards more equitable hiring outcomes. She started by focusing on agency recruiters, recognising them as initial gatekeepers and architects of workplace diversity.From Ethics to Expertise:
Whilst Jo has always been an ethical recruiter, she acknowledges there is a distinction between simply wanting to do the right thing and possessing the technical knowledge and confidence required for genuine inclusion. For her, integrating EDI is not just about moral goodwill but about embedding practical, systematic changes into recruitment models.Performative Versus Authentic Inclusion:
Jo critiques organisations and agencies who merely pay lip service to EDI, noting a prevalence of box-ticking and performative declarations about inclusivity. She observes that real change often arises only when clients demand evidence and accountability, particularly when agencies lose business due to lacking inclusive practices.Structural Challenges in Recruitment:
Jo discusses metrics like time-to-hire and speed—standard agency performance indicators—as sometimes being antithetical to inclusion. She highlights that genuine inclusive recruitment can require slowing down, reflecting on processes, and introducing extra steps, which can conflict with commercial pressures for efficiency.Internal Practices Mirror External Claims:
She stresses the irony and challenge when recruiters fail to reflect the diversity they claim to deliver for clients. Jo points out how the industry remains relatively homogeneous despite dealing with a diverse talent pool, which diminishes credibility and effectiveness. She argues strongly for agencies to look inward and overhaul their own workforce demographics and practices.A More Sophisticated Recruiter Role:
Moving beyond the stereotype of the recruiter as a mere salesperson, Jo advocates for a more consultative, strategic approach. She sees modern recruiters as business partners, talent consultants, and advisors on hiring strategies, EVP (employee value proposition), and organisational design—not just transactional CV-shufflers.Inclusive Recruitment as a Differentiator:
Jo encourages recruiters to embrace EDI expertise as a unique selling point (USP), suggesting agencies should proactively advise clients on inclusive practices—such as auditing job descriptions for bias or improving candidate sifting methods—rather than waiting to be invited or reacting to problems.Candidate Support and Coaching:
Notably, Jo recognises a service gap when it comes to supporting candidates, particularly those (often women over 50) experiencing longer-term unemployment. She cites examples of professionals leaving HR to coach others through personal branding, social media strategy, and job search skills. Jo sees this as both a commercial and ethical opportunity, highlighting that current offerings (“read this downloadable, watch this video”) are insufficient. She calls for more meaningful candidate investment, particularly for marginalised groups.Age Diversity and Mid/Later Careers:
Jo is vocal about age-related bias in hiring, reflecting on societal shifts (with a smaller Gen Z/Alpha cohort and an ageing population) and the lost opportunity when over-50s are sidelined. She sees immense potential in upskilling and pivoting “vintage” talent and implores organisations—and recruiters—to reconsider their early careers focus in favour of a more balanced approach that harnesses the experience and loyalty of older workers.Community-Focused Approaches:
She suggests innovative solutions such as talent academies or mature apprenticeships, developed in cooperation with local institutions, to reskill and integrate diverse talent across stages of life and career.
Jo Major combines deep industry insight with a sense of urgency that’s both practical and impassioned. Her overarching view is that inclusion in recruitment must move beyond rhetoric—becoming a lived, measurable, and integrated element of both agencies’ internal operations and their external value to clients and candidates alike.
Ideas for Future Training and Workshops based on this Episode
Certainly! Drawing from the themes, concerns, and actionable suggestions woven throughout this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast—“Inclusion Starts with Recruiters”—here’s a suite of bespoke training and workshop ideas designed to catalyse meaningful change in recruitment and talent management:
1. Inclusive Recruitment Fundamentals: Beyond Box-Ticking
Purpose: Equip recruiters and in-house TA teams with an understanding of equity, accessibility, and authentic inclusion, moving beyond performative gestures.
Features:
Unpacking unconscious bias and stereotypes (age, gender, background)
Identifying and overcoming performative diversity traps
Building authentic inclusive cultures in recruitment agencies
2. Consultative Recruitment & Talent Partnership Skills
Purpose: Elevate recruiters to true business partners, not transactional “CV shifters.”
Features:
Strategic questioning and deep-dive client conversations
Understanding EVP (Employer Value Proposition) and workforce planning
How to influence hiring managers and advise on real business pain points
3. Age Diversity and Over-50s Talent Workshops
Purpose: Address bias against experienced candidates and maximise the value of an ageing workforce.
Features:
Practical ways to challenge “cultural fit” and “overqualified” myths
Strategies for supporting and coaching mature jobseekers
Building multi-generational teams for business resilience
4. Candidate Coaching: Making Talent Market-Ready
Purpose: Bridge the gap for long-term unemployed or career-pivoting individuals, especially in marginalised demographics.
Features:
CV and LinkedIn profile masterclasses
Personal branding and employer research
Confidence-building and resilience training through career transition
5. Recruitment Tech Mastery & AI Embrace
Purpose: Upskill recruiters in the adoption and ethical use of AI, automation, and recruitment technology.
Features:
Hands-on with tools like Otter, ChatGPT, LinkedIn Talent Suite
Understanding the impact of AI on recruitment workflows
Balancing tech efficiency with the human touch
6. Social Media & Next-Gen Talent Attraction
Purpose: Modernise recruitment marketing by reaching candidates where they are—TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, etc.
Features:
Social media campaign planning for talent engagement
Generational differences in job searching and employer expectations
Storytelling for employer branding in the digital age
7. From Stereotypes to Strengths: Rethinking Early Careers vs. Late Careers
Purpose: Challenge the fixation on early careers and explore the untapped potential of mid-career and late-career hires.
Features:
Data-driven discussions on pipeline vs. “fish in the pond” approaches
Creating mature apprenticeship and retraining academies
Redesigning talent development frameworks for real community impact
8. Client Engagement: Consulting on Diversity & Inclusion
Purpose: Give recruiters the confidence and skills to bring ED&I into client discussions—proactively and purposefully.
Features:
How to audit and advise on employers’ recruitment journeys
Proactive D&I interventions when not directly invited
Evidence-based consulting—metrics and impact reporting
9. Breaking Out of the Echo Chamber: Industry and Community Collaboration
Purpose: Widen perspectives by challenging internal groupthink and building cross-sector alliances.
Features:
Panels with clients, candidates, community leaders
Exploring non-traditional talent pipelines
Shared learning and benchmarking with TA professionals from other sectors
10. Managing & Harnessing Generational Differences in the Workplace
Purpose: Close the generational gap in expectations, motivation, and working styles within recruitment teams and candidate pools.
Features:
Workshops on intergenerational communication
Best practice for multi-generational workforce retention
Case studies of businesses leveraging age-diverse teams
All workshops can be delivered both as half-day intensives or modular learning journeys, customisable for agency recruiters, in-house TA, or hiring managers themselves.
Each of these themes resonates directly with the transcript’s core messages and audience pain points—ready to spark action and deepen the impact of inclusion at every touchpoint.
🪡 Threads by Instagram
Inclusion in recruitment isn’t just a trend. True change starts when recruiters embed equity at every stage, not just for clients, but within their own processes and culture. Recruitment must be representative to be effective.
Hiring is more than filling roles quickly. Recruiters need time and resources to introduce genuine inclusivity—changing the culture from transactional CV sifting to meaningful, strategic talent partnerships.
Diversity on paper isn’t enough. If recruiters don’t reflect the communities they serve, invisible barriers persist. It’s time for agencies to step outside their echo chambers and learn from those with lived experience.
Mature talent is a critical, undervalued resource. Are we really doing enough to tap into those with decades of expertise? Rethinking talent pipelines means investing in all generations, not just early careers.
Recruiters, the status quo is shifting. Become tech-savvy, proactive advisors—don’t wait for clients to ask for inclusivity. Offer audits, talent coaching, and challenge outdated perceptions to truly ignite change.
Leadership Insights - YouTube Short Video Script on Common Problems for Leaders to Address
Leadership Insights Channel
Struggling to build a truly inclusive team as a leader? Here’s a common pitfall: many leaders rely on box-ticking exercises, thinking that simply stating “we’re diverse and inclusive” is enough. This approach is often performative and fails to drive real, lasting change.
To turn things around, start by reflecting honestly on your own processes and team demographics. Ask yourself: Do we truly represent the communities we serve? Are our hiring practices accessible and equitable, or just convenient?
Shift your focus from just filling roles quickly to genuinely investing in inclusive recruitment. Engage with your recruiters as strategic partners—encourage them to consult, not just transact. Give people permission to challenge old habits and suggest improvements, especially in scrutinising job descriptions, interview practices, and onboarding.
Empower your team to slow down and get things right, rather than rushing hires. Invest in upskilling hiring managers, address unconscious bias, and ensure your recruitment isn't just about finding the fastest fit—but building the strongest, most diverse organisation.
Real inclusion starts with leaders modelling authentic behaviours, holding themselves accountable, and championing constructive change every step of the way. Shift the culture, and you’ll see real results.
Follow for more on how to lead with impact!
SEO Optimised Titles
5 Ways Recruiters Can Drive Inclusion in a Changing Job Market | Jo @ See Change Happen
Busting the Recruitment Echo Chamber: 3 Stats That Reveal Inclusion Gaps in Hiring | Jo @ See Change Happen
From Agency to Authenticity: Why 84 percent of Recruiters Need to Rethink DEI Strategies | Jo @ See Change Happen
Email Newsletter about this Podcast Episode
Subject: Inclusion Starts with Recruiters — Your Bite-Sized Takeaways 🍬
Hello Inclusion Bites community,
Ready for another round of honest, inspiring conversation? Episode 173 – "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters" – is fresh out the oven! Joanne Lockwood is joined by Jo Major, who’s transforming the recruitment world one equitable hiring process at a time. Whether you're in HR, recruitment, or just keen to see more fairness in workplaces, this one’s for you.
Here are 5 Keys You'll Take Away from This Episode:
Recruiters Shape Inclusion First
Recruitment isn’t just about filling seats; it’s where the journey of inclusion truly begins. Jo Major highlights why recruiters, both agency and in-house, have a bigger impact than most realise.The Pitfalls of 'Box-Ticking' D&I
Learn why performative diversity statements aren’t enough, and how authentic, lived inclusion requires more than a badge on a website.Bridging the Representation Gap
We explore the real challenge of underrepresentation within recruitment agencies themselves and why reflection matters just as much as direction.The New Role of the Recruiter
Forget the ‘sales caricature’. Recruiters today must be relationship-builders, tech-savvy, and strategic – proper business partners who consult, not just supply.Unlocking Talent at Every Age
With an aging population and skills gaps, we discuss why recruiting isn’t just a young person’s game – and why tapping into older and returning workers is crucial for long-term organisational success.
A Unique Fact That Stuck with Us:
Did you know the recruitment industry is often more diverse in its talent pool than its actual workforce? So, while recruiters help organisations reach wider communities, as an industry they’ve built a bit of a "one-dimensional" workplace culture themselves — a real eye-opener!
Get Involved:
Keen for more? Listen now: Inclusion Bites Podcast on SEE Change Happen
Have thoughts, a story to share, or want to join an episode? Email Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk — all voices are welcome.
Let's Finish Strong
Inclusion starts with the first hello, the first job spec, the first handshake. Let’s make recruitment a force for positive change, not just a business transaction. Plug in, learn, reflect, and be the ally your workplace deserves.
Till next time,
The Inclusion Bites Team
#InclusionBites #EquityInRecruitment #ChallengingTheStatusQuo
Potted Summary
Episode Introduction
In this enlightening episode of Inclusion Bites, host Joanne Lockwood welcomes Jo Major to explore the pivotal role recruiters play in advancing equity, diversity, and inclusion within recruitment practices. Together, they challenge performative norms, dissect agency and in-house recruitment dynamics, and examine how recruiters might champion authentic transformation, talent development, and societal change. Candid, forward-thinking, and practical, this conversation urges the industry to reflect, innovate, and act for truly inclusive hiring.
In this conversation we discuss
👉 Recruitment’s power
👉 Age inclusivity
👉 Coaching candidates
Here are a few of our favourite quotable moments
“Recruitment itself can be an incredible profession and an incredible career... Why are we not professionalising the recruitment industry enough so it actually becomes a genuine career option?”
“It never fails to fascinate me as to why we have such a, you know, a diverse talent pool as an industry and yet we are pretty... one dimensional as an industry ourselves.”
“If the biggest generation in the workforce... we all, we all, we're all turning, we're ageing at the same time... It is, yeah, ageism.”
Episode Summary & Call to Action
This episode challenges perceptions and practices in recruitment, from addressing ageism and stereotyping to reimagining how talent is engaged and supported. Joanne and Jo shine a light on the profound opportunities recruiters have to drive lasting social impact. Ready to rethink recruitment and ignite inclusion? Listen now to spark positive change in your organisation and beyond.
Find the full episode at Inclusion Bites.
LinkedIn Poll
Framing Summary:
On our latest Inclusion Bites episode, “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters,” Jo Major and Joanne Lockwood tackled a crucial question: how can recruiters move beyond performative gestures and truly embed equity, inclusion, and belonging throughout the hiring process? The conversation explored accountability, the evolving expectations of recruitment, and how the sector can better reflect the diversity of the communities it serves.
Given these insights, I’d love to know:
Where do you see the largest opportunity for improving inclusion in recruitment right now?
Poll Question:
Where is the biggest opportunity to boost inclusion in recruitment? 🤔
Poll Options:
🌈 Diverse recruiter hiring
🧑💻 Inclusive job adverts
🕵️♀️ Consulting clients on EDI
📚 Supporting overlooked talent
Hashtags:
#InclusionBites #Recruitment #Belonging #EDI
Closing (Why Vote):
Your vote will spotlight where change is most needed and help shape conversations that drive real impact in recruitment. Let’s crowdsource ideas for a more inclusive sector—every opinion counts!
Highlight the Importance of this topic on LinkedIn
🚀 Why Inclusion Starts with Recruiters | Insights from Inclusion Bites Podcast
Just listened to the latest Inclusion Bites episode, "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters" with Jo Major and Joanne Lockwood, and I can’t recommend it enough. 🌍
This conversation is essential for all of us in HR, EDI, and senior leadership because:
🔍 It challenges agencies (and in-house teams) to look beyond “box-ticking” and embed equity and inclusion into the real recruitment process.
🤝 It calls out the urgent need to reflect our communities—diversity in the talent pool must be matched by diversity within recruitment firms themselves.
🧠 It highlights the pivotal role of strategic partnerships, not just transactional CV-matching. Recruitment needs to evolve: consult, drive change, and co-own talent strategy!
🎯 It draws attention to untapped talent—especially over 50s—urging us to reimagine career pathways, support reskilling, and challenge bias at every stage.
👥 It reminds us of our duty to coach, mentor, and empower candidates, not just clients.
The future of inclusive hiring relies on us transforming our own practices and industry mindset.
Are you ready to lead that change? Let’s move from rhetoric to action! 👊
#InclusionBites #InclusiveRecruitment #HRLeadership #EDI #Belonging #PeopleProfession #FutureOfWork
🎧 Listen here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
L&D Insights
Certainly! Here is a Learning & Development expert’s executive summary of Inclusion Bites Podcast – Episode 173: “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters”, tailored for Senior Leaders, HR, and EDI professionals.
Key Insights & Aha Moments 💡
1. Recruiters as Catalysts for Inclusion
Recruiters—whether in-house or agency—are not merely administrative gatekeepers but wield significant influence over organisational culture and societal mobility. They’re uniquely positioned to challenge norms, disrupt bias, and embed equitable practices at every hiring touchpoint.
Aha moment: Recruitment done well isn’t just talent acquisition; it’s community building and direct inclusion work.
2. Beyond Box-Ticking: Moving from Performative to Authentic EDI
Both Jo Major and Joanne Lockwood critique token efforts and emphasise that true progress occurs when organisations mirror the diversity they claim to value. External claims of being “inclusive” must be backed up by internally diverse and equitable recruitment teams and practices.
Aha moment: You can’t sell what you don’t authentically live—“walk the talk” is non-negotiable.
3. Rethinking the Candidate Experience
The industry often neglects candidate support, focusing on those most likely to land the role. Yet, the long-term unemployed, the over-50s, and others in the ‘hidden workforce’ represent untapped reservoirs of capability.
Aha moment: Upskilling, coaching, and personal brand development for candidates is a critical EDI intervention.
4. Interrogating the ‘Hiring Manager as Expert’ Myth
Many hiring managers aren’t seasoned in DEI, talent acquisition, or brand building—they simply need to fill a vacant seat. Recruiters (agency or in-house) should bridge the gap, acting as strategic partners rather than mere fulfilment agents.
Aha moment: Position recruiters as consultative partners. Encourage them to drive challenging conversations on strategy, bias interruption, and holistic onboarding.
5. Age Diversity: The Overlooked Dimension
There’s a collective blind spot concerning mature talent. With demographic shifts, those over 50 will soon dominate the workforce, yet hiring bias remains rampant. The business case for experienced workers is about more than just filling gaps—it’s a competitive advantage.
Aha moment: Future-focused organisations will rethink early careers obsession and invest in returnships, mid-career pivots, and retention of experienced talent.
What Should Senior Leaders, HR, and EDI Pros Do Differently? 🚦
a. Embed Inclusion at Every Recruitment Touchpoint
Audit your hiring partner relationships. Are they truly equipped in equitable, accessible recruitment—or just paying lip service? Demand evidence, data, and accountability.
b. Invest in the Development of All Candidates
Champion support, coaching, and re-skilling for overlooked groups (e.g., long-term unemployed, career changers, mature talent). View such interventions as part of your employers’ social equity strategy, not just charity.
c. Advance Recruiter Capability
Modern recruiters need to be tech-savvy, data-literate, and comfortable with social media, AI, and generational nuances. Upskill your recruitment function and reframe their job scope—think less “sales agent”, more “talent consultant”.
d. Challenge and Train Hiring Managers
Prioritise structured DEI training for hiring managers, focusing on mitigating bias (especially around age and background), and encourage multi-generational talent strategy.
e. Build Talent Pipelines Collaboratively
Engage in community-based talent academies and pooled development programmes with partner organisations. Invest in grassroots outreach and long-term talent pipeline development.
TL;DR for Busy Leaders
Recruiters shape inclusion—empower them as strategic partners, not just “CV sorters”.
Make inclusion authentic and visible, both in your internal teams and to clients/candidates.
Broaden your definition of talent: mature workers and the long-term unemployed are vital resources.
Don’t assume managers are DEI-hotshots—train and support them.
Future-proof your organisation by investing in multi-generational, community-linked talent programmes.
🔑 This isn’t about adding work—it’s about evolving how we define and deliver value in the talent lifecycle. The ROI? Greater retention, innovation, and true organisational belonging.
#TalentRevolution #InclusiveHiring #EquityInAction #AgeDiversity #FutureOfWork
Shorts Video Script
Social Media Video Title:
Recruitment Revolution: Why Inclusion Starts with You! #InclusiveHiring
Text on screen:
“Let’s Talk: Inclusive Recruitment 🚀”
Do you work in recruitment or hiring? Here’s a wake-up call—real inclusion begins with us, not just with our clients.
[Text on screen: “Challenge the Tick-Box Mentality ❌”]
Inclusion isn’t just a box-ticking exercise or a shiny badge on your website. If we want authentic change, it starts by holding ourselves accountable—how diverse and equitable are our own teams and processes?
[Text on screen: “Demand More Than Performative Action 🎭”]
It’s tempting to rely on quick fixes or generic training. But true progress comes from transforming the entire recruitment journey. Think: are we just sending CVs, or are we actively challenging client expectations, broadening talent pools, and looking beyond the usual brief?
[Text on screen: “Bridge the Representation Gap 🌍”]
The recruitment sector is filled with diverse candidates, but our own teams often don’t reflect that richness. We must ask: do our recruiters mirror the talent pools we seek to attract for clients? If not, what are we really modelling for them?
[Text on screen: “Embrace the Consultant Mindset 🧠”]
Don’t just deliver what’s asked. Push for deeper conversations. Audit your clients’ job descriptions, candidate experiences, and even their websites—proactively, not just when something goes wrong. Help hiring managers spot hidden biases, especially around age or background.
[Text on screen: “Support Candidates, Not Just Clients 🤝”]
Are you coaching job seekers, especially those struggling to re-enter the market? Many candidates—women, older professionals, and career changers—fall through the cracks. Investing in their development is not just good ethics, it’s good business and strengthens your talent pipeline.
[Text on screen: “Level Up With Tech and Trends 🛠”]
Stay on top of recruitment tech and social platforms. Meet candidates where they are—sometimes that’s TikTok or Snapchat, not just a job board.
If we want true, lasting inclusion, it’s down to us to evolve the recruiter’s role—from transactional filler to strategic partner and inclusive talent advocate.
Thanks for watching! Remember, together we can make a difference. Stay connected, stay inclusive! See you next time. ✨
Hashtags:
#InclusiveRecruitment #EquityAtWork #TalentStrategy #RecruitmentRevolution #BelongingInBusiness
Glossary of Terms and Phrases
# Inclusion Bites Podcast – Episode: "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters"
## Specialist Concepts and Phrases with Definitions
Below are the less commonly used words, phrases and concepts discussed or implied in this episode, along with their contextual definitions:
### 1. Inclusive Recruitment
**Definition:** The practice of designing and implementing hiring processes that actively remove barriers and ensure equity for candidates of all backgrounds, abilities, ages, and identities.
### 2. Equity
**Definition:** Providing fair treatment, opportunities, and advancement while striving to identify and eliminate barriers that have prevented the full participation of some groups.
### 3. Accessibility
**Definition:** Making hiring processes and workplaces usable by people with a wide range of abilities, including those with disabilities.
### 4. Retained Model / Retained Search
**Definition:** A recruitment service model where an agency is paid exclusively or in advance to fill a particular role, allowing for a more thorough and consultative approach.
### 5. Contingent Recruitment
**Definition:** A model where an agency is paid only if they successfully fill a vacancy, typically focusing on speed and volume over depth and inclusion.
### 6. Preferred Supplier List (PSL)
**Definition:** A list of vetted, trusted recruiters or agencies an organisation works with, often based on proven capability, compliance and values commitment.
### 7. Tick Box (Box Ticking)
**Definition:** Refers to superficial or performative actions taken to appear compliant with diversity, equity, and inclusion (DE&I) standards, without deep, genuine change.
### 8. Representational Demographics
**Definition:** The reflection of the diversity in a workforce compared to the diversity present in the broader community or talent pool.
### 9. Talent Attraction Strategy
**Definition:** Organisational approaches and techniques designed to appeal to and engage potential candidates from diverse backgrounds.
### 10. EVP (Employee Value Proposition)
**Definition:** The unique set of offerings, associations, and values an employer provides to attract and retain top talent.
### 11. Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO)
**Definition:** The outsourcing of all or part of an organisation's recruitment processes to an external provider.
### 12. Talent Acquisition (TA)
**Definition:** The ongoing strategic approach to identifying, attracting, and onboarding skilled employees to efficiently and effectively meet dynamic business needs.
### 13. Shortlisting/Sifting Process
**Definition:** The screening phase in recruitment during which applications or CVs are evaluated to identify candidates most aligned with the role’s requirements.
### 14. Organisational Design
**Definition:** The process of shaping an organisation’s structure, roles, and workflows to support its objectives, with workforce planning as a key component.
### 15. Generational Workforces
**Definition:** The practise and study of managing workplace diversity regarding multiple age groups, each bringing unique expectations, skills, and needs.
### 16. Early Careers Talent
**Definition:** Individuals in the initial stages of their professional working life, often recently graduated or entering the workplace for the first time.
### 17. Mature Workforce / Vintage Worker
**Definition:** Experienced workers typically aged 50+, whose skills, lived experience, and unique perspectives are highlighted as assets.
### 18. Employer Branding (and Job Marketing Strategy)
**Definition:** The set of strategies and practices focused on shaping an organisation's reputation as an employer, particularly to attract diverse talent.
### 19. TA Business Partner
**Definition:** A role or function within an organisation focused on long-term talent acquisition strategy and collaborative partnership with hiring managers, HR, and business leaders.
### 20. Skills-Based Interview Training
**Definition:** Interviewing approaches and training focused on assessing candidates’ skills and competencies rather than just experience or educational background.
### 21. Careers Page Audit
**Definition:** An expert review of employer websites and careers pages for inclusivity, accessibility, and effectiveness in appealing to diverse candidates.
### 22. Blind Recruitment
**Definition:** Recruitment processes that reduce bias by removing personally identifying details (e.g., names, ages) from applications during initial screening.
### 23. Professional Services for Candidates
**Definition:** Offered support such as coaching, personal branding, and interview guidance, particularly for groups struggling to re-enter the workforce (e.g., long-term unemployed, mature workers).
### 24. Diversity of Thought
**Definition:** The inclusion and leveraging of differing perspectives, life experiences, and approaches to drive creativity, problem-solving, and innovation in teams.
### 25. Steady Eddies / Bedrock Employees
**Definition:** Colloquial terms used to describe reliable, experienced workers who provide organisational stability and continuity.
### 26. Workforce Planning
**Definition:** The ongoing process of aligning workforce supply (skills, people) with the present and future needs of the business.
---
These terms, many of which hold nuanced or advanced meanings within the field of recruitment and DE&I, underpin the deeper discussion around transforming recruitment into a more inclusive, equitable, and effective process for all stakeholders.SEO Optimised YouTube Content
Focus Keyword: Inclusive Recruitment
Title
Inclusion Starts with Recruiters: Elevating Inclusive Recruitment for Positive People Experiences and Culture Change | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags
Tags: inclusive recruitment, culture change, positive people experiences, recruitment innovation, equity and inclusion, diversity in hiring, recruitment strategies, inclusive hiring, recruitment transformation, HR best practice, recruitment consulting, workplace belonging, talent pipeline, diverse talent, agency recruiters, in-house recruitment, inclusive workplaces, recruitment accountability, DE&I, talent management, inclusive leadership, workforce diversity, recruitment technology, career coaching, generational diversity
Killer Quote
Killer Quote: "We are not representing the communities that we're here to serve and to recruit for... and I think that creates a lot of invisible barriers for the recruitment industry and our success." – Jo Major
Hashtags
Hashtags: #InclusionBites, #InclusiveRecruitment, #CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #DiversityandInclusion, #Belonging, #Equity, #RecruitmentInnovation, #TalentPipeline, #InclusiveHiring, #RecruitmentStrategy, #HumanResources, #PeopleCentric, #DEI, #WorkplaceCulture, #RecruitmentConsulting, #TA, #WorkforceDiversity, #InclusiveLeadership, #DiversityMatters
Why Listen: Discover the Power of Inclusive Recruitment for Positive People Experiences and Culture Change
Are you ready to transform not just your hiring process but the very culture of your organisation? Dive deep into the heart of inclusive recruitment with me, Joanne Lockwood, as I engage in a powerful and insightful conversation with Jo Major on this thought-provoking episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast. We unravel what it means to not only open doors to diverse talent but to create pathways for Positive People Experiences, driving tangible culture change that lasts far beyond a single hire.
Inclusive recruitment isn't a tick-box exercise or a fleeting organisational fad – it's the catalyst for lasting change and impactful business outcomes. Whether you're an agency recruiter, in-house HR leader, or an advocate for belonging, this episode is your essential toolkit for embedding equity and inclusion into every stage of talent acquisition.
Jo, a trailblazer in transforming the recruitment industry, brings her wealth of experience and candid observations to the table. From her roots as an ethical recruiter to her current mission of upskilling recruitment professionals with the tools, mindset, and confidence needed for inclusive hiring, Jo exposes the often-overlooked realities of recruitment – both the pitfalls and the immense possibilities.
How do you ensure your recruitment process is truly reflective of the communities you're aiming to serve? Why does culture change begin with those at the frontlines of talent acquisition, and how can they move from transactional job fulfilment to strategic partnership? Together, we examine these pressing questions, highlighting the disconnect between industry aspirations and current practice.
We challenge the norm of relying solely on performative diversity statements. Instead, we champion the value of authentic representation and the need for recruiters to look inward, aligning their internal demographics and processes with the aspirations they project to clients and candidates alike.
This episode pulls no punches when it comes to examining outdated perceptions: Why is recruitment so often seen as a “fallback” career? How does the industry's focus on speed and volume undermine its ability to deliver inclusive, considered hiring decisions? We discuss how true culture change hinges on shifting mindsets, embracing a consultative approach, and ensuring that recruiters aren't just filling seats – they're driving Positive People Experiences and long-term equity outcomes.
You'll hear how the most forward-thinking recruiters are breaking out of the “echo chamber”, engaging with broader business functions and leveraging technology not to replace human insight, but to augment it – freeing recruiters to focus on what matters most: human impact and strategic value.
Are you grappling with the rapid evolution of tech, the demands of generational change, and the rise of non-traditional talent pipelines? Jo and I delve into modern tools such as AI, social media platforms like TikTok, and data-driven dashboards – offering practical insights into how recruiters can proactively drive candidate engagement and meet diverse talent where they are.
But inclusive recruitment doesn’t stop at the point of hire. Together, we shine a light on the reality of candidate experience, career coaching, and the urgent need to address systemic barriers faced by long-term unemployed, career-changers, and those over 50. The conversation spotlights where the industry must do better – not only championing early careers and graduates, but also valuing lived experience and working to upskill, rebrand, and retain talent across the age spectrum.
By the end of this episode, you’ll have a holistic understanding of:
The essential shift from transactional recruitment to true culture change through Positive People Experiences
How to embed inclusive recruitment as both a mindset and a measurable business process
The strategic advantage of embracing diversity of thought, representation, and generational perspectives
Why recruiters must become consultative, trusted advisors – not just vacancy fillers – to remain relevant and valuable in an evolving market
Actionable ways to support candidates at every stage, including those navigating mid or late-career transitions
Packed with honest reflections, optimistic calls to action, and innovations for the future, this is your invitation to become an active change-maker in both your sphere of influence and the wider recruitment ecosystem. Let’s together challenge stereotypes, break down silos, and drive meaningful culture change – one Positive People Experience at a time.
Closing Summary and Call to Action
Key Learning Points and Actionable Insights from "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters"
Redefine Recruitment as a Vehicle for Culture Change
Recognise that recruitment is no longer a transactional exercise; it sits at the epicentre of your organisation’s culture shift.
Incorporate inclusive recruitment principles not as afterthoughts or compliance steps, but as foundational pillars for how you build teams and shape your business identity.
Move beyond box-ticking diversity statements; embed representation and belonging at every level, from agency teams to leadership.
Champion Positive People Experiences
Prioritise candidate experience, ensuring all individuals feel respected, valued, and included throughout the process.
Provide proactive, transparent feedback and career support, especially for those struggling to access employment or change career direction.
Remember: A single Positive People Experience in the recruitment process can become a ripple, influencing perceptions of your brand and fostering long-term loyalty.
Equip Recruiters as Consultative Partners
Empower recruiters to move past the “job filler” mentality and become strategic advisors to clients and internal teams.
Build recruiters’ confidence and technical expertise in areas such as DE&I, talent mapping, employer branding, and workforce planning.
Encourage direct interfaces between recruiters and client organisations, working closely with HR, diversity leads, and business stakeholders to deliver integrated, sustainable results.
Leverage Technology as an Enabler, Not a Replacement
Embrace recruitment technology (AI, ATS, social media) to handle repetitive tasks, but resist the urge to automate away the human touch.
Train recruiters thoroughly in the use of emerging tech and data analytics, positioning them to lead client conversations on tech-enabled, inclusive hiring.
Focus tech investment on freeing up recruiters to do what matters most: building relationships, consulting on strategy, and delivering bespoke solutions.
Close the Representation Gap
Regularly audit your recruitment team’s demographic profile against the communities you serve; address disparities proactively.
Commit to broadening entry pathways into recruitment itself, challenging the industry’s historic “sales” archetype and creating room for diverse backgrounds, skills, and lived experiences.
Mind the Inclusion Gap – Coaching and Ongoing Support
Recognise the need for structured career coaching, especially for underrepresented and long-term unemployed candidates.
Consider establishing external partnerships or in-house academies to nurture mid-career and mature talent, offering upskilling and reskilling opportunities that lead to meaningful employment.
Develop talent pipelines that transcend age, background, or traditional qualification – valuing skills, potential, and passion.
Understand Generational and Social Dynamics
Audit your hiring practices for bias (age, race, gender, background) and work to build teams that represent generational and lived experience diversity.
Train hiring managers to identify and mitigate unconscious bias, particularly when reviewing candidates whose profiles do not mirror their own.
Position mature workers as assets, not liabilities – harnessing their experience and stability as competitive advantages.
Move from Siloed to Systemic Action
Collaborate across organisational boundaries; break down silos between recruitment, HR, marketing, and leadership to coordinate messaging, branding, and candidate engagement.
Participate in local talent networks, talent academies, and community engagement programmes to develop broad and deep talent pipelines.
Share the impact of inclusive recruitment with all stakeholders, using data to track progress and refine approaches.
Advocate and Celebrate Every Success
Promote inclusion and Positive People Experiences with authentic, visible leadership – both inside and out of the recruitment function.
Highlight case studies and stories where inclusive recruitment has driven measurable culture change.
Encourage feedback from candidates, hiring managers, and clients to ensure continued evolution and improvement.
Take Responsibility – Be the Change
Internalise the message – inclusion starts with you. Whether you’re a recruiter, business leader, or candidate, your actions ripple outward into culture.
Engage in self-reflection, continuous learning, and courageous conversations.
Reach out, collaborate, and challenge yourself to model inclusive behaviours in all your interactions.
Action Steps:
Audit your recruitment processes for inclusivity barriers
Invest in regular upskilling and technology literacy for all recruitment professionals
Set up structured feedback and coaching mechanisms for candidates
Proactively network with diverse talent pipelines, both internally and externally
Celebrate Positive People Experiences and amplify culture change at all levels
For lasting, systemic change, let inclusion be your default, not your differentiator.
Outro
Thank you for tuning in to Inclusion Bites. If today’s conversation inspired you or gave you new perspectives on Positive People Experiences and culture change through inclusive recruitment, please do like and subscribe to the channel so you never miss an episode that drives real change.
Want to dig deeper? Visit the SEE Change Happen website for more resources, training, and consulting on equity, diversity, and inclusion:
SEE Change Happen website
Catch up with more engaging episodes and bold conversations at:
The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive - Joanne Lockwood
Root Cause Analyst - Why!
Certainly. Utilising a Root Cause Analysis approach for the topics raised in the “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters” episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, here is a breakdown:
Key Problem Identified
Recruitment processes and organisations, whilst espousing inclusive and diverse values, are still failing to truly deliver equitable, inclusive, and accessible hiring in practice—often defaulting to performative or ‘tick-box’ actions rather than systematic change.
Digging Deeper: The Five Whys
Why are recruitment organisations still failing to deliver genuinely inclusive hiring practices?
Because, despite the widespread rhetoric around diversity and inclusion, implementation tends to be patchy, performative, or restricted by ingrained processes and commercial priorities.Why is the implementation patchy or performative?
Because recruiters are often measured and incentivised based on metrics such as speed to hire, volume, and placement rates, not on qualitative outcomes like diversity, inclusion, or candidate experience.Why are these the main metrics for recruiters?
Because the business model in many recruitment agencies (particularly contingent/agency firms) is built around efficiency and revenue per placement, not necessarily around the quality, equity, or long-term outcomes of hires.Why is the business model so focused on efficiency and revenue, rather than holistic impact?
Because clients (hiring companies) often approach agencies transactionally, valuing cost and speed over consultative or transformative partnerships, and rarely incentivise or demand demonstrable inclusion outcomes—thereby failing to reshape the supply side.Why do clients prioritise transactional relationships and not challenge agencies on inclusion adequately?
Because there is a general lack of understanding, education, or willingness to embed equity and inclusion as business imperatives at every level. There are also resource constraints and, crucially, a lack of authentic leadership and accountability for inclusive outcomes within many organisations.
Summary of Findings
At the core, the failure to embed genuine inclusion in recruitment is rooted in sector-wide business models and client mindsets, both of which perpetuate transactional, performance-only approaches. This is underpinned by a lack of shared language, knowledge, and responsibility for inclusion—not only within recruitment agencies but also amongst their clients. The lack of broad-based commercial and reputational incentives for agencies to change, and for clients to demand more, allows the cycle to persist.
Potential Solutions
Redefine Success Metrics:
Shift incentives so that recruiters are measured and rewarded on qualitative, inclusion-focused outcomes—e.g. candidate representation data, candidate feedback, long-term retention—not just speed and placement.Client Education and Partnership:
Recruitment firms should proactively educate clients on the value of inclusive hiring, engaging them as strategic partners. They must demonstrate the commercial and ethical benefits of equity-focused recruitment and advise on holistic talent attraction and retention strategies—not just transactional placements.Professional Development:
Equip recruiters with in-depth knowledge and confidence around equity, diversity and inclusion (EDI)—including support for different generations, addressing ageism, and building inclusive candidate experiences. This includes upskilling recruiters to become true consultants on inclusion, not just salespeople.Broaden Service Offering:
Recruitment agencies could diversify offerings to include candidate coaching (especially for long-term unemployed or overlooked demographics like those aged 50+), careers support, and digital personal branding—moving away from simply ‘job filling’ and towards holistic talent solutions.Systemic Change:
Clients and recruiters should collaborate to audit and redesign hiring processes and candidate touchpoints, ensuring accessibility, mitigating bias at each step, and intentionally addressing the needs of underrepresented groups. This should be embedded within organisational talent strategies, rather than treated as an afterthought.Promote Representation:
Prioritise diversity within recruitment teams themselves so agencies mirror the communities and organisations they serve, and are better able to challenge stereotypes and biases within both client and candidate pools.Advocate for Industry-wide Change:
Encourage industry bodies to set standards, accredit inclusive practices, and share good practice in recruitment that moves beyond classic ‘sales and speed’ approaches.
Conclusion
True inclusion within recruitment will only be achieved when both agencies and clients fundamentally challenge and overhaul their models, priorities, and expectations. Solutions require a blend of structural, educational, and cultural shifts. By transforming metrics, building deeper partnerships, and investing in diverse talent pipelines—including overlooked groups—both recruiters and employers can drive lasting change.
For further insights or to join the conversation, contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk or listen to more episodes at https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.
Canva Slider Checklist
Episode Carousel
Slide 1:
✨ Are recruiters the real game-changers of workplace inclusion? ✨
Slide 2:
The recruitment industry wields huge influence—shaping who gets access to opportunity and whose CVs are left behind. But is a “tick box” approach to diversity enough?
Slide 3:
True inclusive recruitment demands more than slogans. It’s about cultivating diverse candidate pools, challenging bias, and forging genuine partnerships between recruiters, clients, and candidates.
Slide 4:
Imagine recruiters as strategic business partners—coaching candidates, auditing employer brands, and driving change for overlooked groups, from early careers to the experienced workforce.
Slide 5:
Curious about how inclusion really starts with recruiters?
🎧 Listen to “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters” on Inclusion Bites!
Find out more at seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#InclusionBites #RecruitmentRevolution #EquityInAction
6 major topics
Inclusion Starts with Recruiters: Six Catalysts for Change in Hiring
Meta Description:
Dive into the heart of inclusive hiring with Joanne Lockwood as she recounts her candid conversation with Jo Major, exploring why true inclusion starts with recruiters and how the recruitment industry can lead meaningful change in workplaces.
When I sat down with Jo Major, we unravelled an incredibly rich tapestry around the theme “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters.” Far from a tick-box exercise, we delved into why inclusive hiring is not merely a trend, but an urgent business and social imperative. As we navigated our discussion, I realised just how pivotal recruiters are in shaping equitable futures—for organisations and candidates alike. Here are six major topics that emerged, each offering a fresh lens on the evolving world of inclusive hiring.
The True Weight Recruiters Carry: Gatekeepers of Inclusion
Jo and I opened our conversation acknowledging the immense responsibility and power that recruiters hold in the hiring process. Far from being passive middlepeople, recruiters are often the first—and sometimes only—ambassadors for inclusion that candidates meet. The question isn’t just “How do we get more diverse applicants?”—it’s whether our own processes and attitudes as recruiters foster belonging from the very first interaction.
Curiously, Jo revealed that many recruiters join the sector to do good and advocate for people, yet lack structured knowledge of inclusion and equity. This gap between good intentions and informed action is critical. If you’re wondering whether inclusive hiring is about slowing down efficiency or adding complexity—think again. The reality is that thoughtful, equitable processes increase the talent pool, unlock new markets, and future-proof your business.
Moving Beyond the Tick-Box—Challenging Performative Diversity
How do we discern when a recruitment agency is truly inclusive, versus merely performing for the market? As we reflected, Jo and I noticed the prevalence of “box ticking”—agencies eager to slap ‘inclusive’ on their websites, yet struggle to demonstrate it genuinely to clients or candidates.
Perhaps, then, the real challenge is about transparency and self-reflection. Are our teams mirroring the diversity we so enthusiastically sell? Do we invest in the professional development of recruiters to become experts—not just in sales, but in equity and talent strategy? The intrigue here lies in how business metrics, such as time-to-hire, can either hamper or enhance inclusive hiring. Should agencies be more courageous in calling out their own gaps, rather than hiding behind glossy branding?
Shifting from Transactional to Consultative Partnering
One of the most provocative parts of our exchange centred around where recruiters fit in an organisation’s talent life cycle. Are agencies simply “CV shufflers”, or should we aspire to be strategic partners—consultants who guide clients on workforce planning, employer value propositions, and brand-building? Jo championed the idea that recruiters should be trusted advisers, helping hiring managers think beyond the job title, interrogate their biases, and prepare for a multigenerational, multicultural workforce.
What I found especially enlightening was our shared conviction that hiring managers—often only occasional recruiters themselves—should not bear the burden of talent strategy alone. Imagine if agencies offered skills audits, diversity audits of career pages, or advice on untapped talent pools, all without being asked. What ripple effects might this have on the entire business ecosystem?
The Untapped Value of Candidate Coaching
Turning the lens from client to candidate, Jo and I challenged the status quo: why do so few agencies invest meaningfully in candidate coaching, especially for those long-term unemployed or facing career pivots? We shared stories of talented individuals, especially over-50s and women returning to work, bewildered by a system that feels indifferent at best.
Here’s where curiosity piqued: what if recruiters saw candidate development not as charity, but as essential to commercial success and community wellbeing? Might the sector one day provide ‘talent academies’ for mature workers, or offer tailored coaching for hidden talent pools? The knock-on effects for equity and retention are huge, and largely unexplored.
Age Diversity and the Changing Demographics of the Workforce
Another rich avenue was the urgent need for age-inclusion in hiring. Our population is ageing; by 2030, over-50s will comprise the bulk of the workforce. Yet ageism—whether explicit or coded—remains one of the last acceptable biases in recruitment. Jo and I asked: why is early careers still hogging the spotlight, when experienced professionals are crying out for opportunity and purpose?
Here’s a radiant point of curiosity: what would happen if employers embraced mature apprenticeships, or pooled their resources to upskill and place experienced workers across community networks? The business case is clear—retention, knowledge continuity, and deeper organisational loyalty.
Recruitment Technology, Social Media, and the Future of Finding Talent
Lastly, our conversation ventured into the ever-evolving world of recruitment technology and digital platforms. I was struck by Jo’s insistence that modern recruiters must become technology experts, harnessing AI, social media (think TikTok and Snapchat), and new tools for candidate outreach and communication.
Curiously, some agencies still ban AI tools, missing out on opportunities to automate administrative tasks and free up more time for human connection. Are we ready to meet candidates where they are—digitally, generationally, and culturally? And are our recruiters prepared to lead the charge, or are we letting technology pass us by?
Conclusion: The Power and Promise of Inclusive Hiring
As I reflect on my dialogue with Jo Major, the message is unambiguous: inclusive hiring is not an optional add-on—it’s the arena where meaningful change begins. Recruiters are at the frontline, with unparalleled scope to foster fairness, challenge bias, and reimagine what’s possible for a diverse workforce.
If you’re curious how to get started or wish to deepen your impact, let’s keep the conversation going. Reach out at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk or join the growing community at Inclusion Bites. Together, let’s spark change—one bold, inclusive hire at a time.
Primary Keyword: Inclusive Hiring
Linked terms: equitable recruitment, diversity and inclusion, inclusive recruitment, candidate coaching, age diversity, recruitment technology
TikTok Summary
👀 Think recruitment is just about filling seats? Think again! In this episode of Inclusion Bites, we spill the tea on why REAL inclusion in hiring starts—and sometimes stalls—with recruiters themselves. Are agencies truly walking the talk, or just ticking boxes? 🤔
Tap in for bold takes with Jo Major & Joanne Lockwood as they debunk myths, confront industry bias, and drop actionable tips to shake up YOUR approach to inclusive hiring. Gen Z, vintage expertise, TikTok recruiting… nothing’s off limits!
Ready to disrupt the status quo? 🎧 Listen to the full convo here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#InclusionBites #RecruitmentRevolution #Belonging #InclusionStartsHere #SeeChangeHappen
Slogans and Image Prompts
Absolutely! Drawing from the episode “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters,” here are memorable slogans, soundbites, and quotes perfect for merchandise or hashtags, each paired with a detailed AI image generation prompt to make them pop on any medium.
1. Slogan:
“Inclusion Starts with Us”
Image Prompt:
A diverse group of people, including a range of ages, genders, ethnicities, and abilities, gathered in a contemporary office, arms linked or hands on each other's shoulders, smiling confidently toward the viewer. The phrase “Inclusion Starts with Us” appears boldly in the centre. The palette is vibrant and optimistic, with clean vector-style lines suitable for mugs and t-shirts.
2. Soundbite:
“Diversity is Far More than a Box to Tick”
Image Prompt:
A partially ticked checklist transforming into a colourful mosaic of diverse human silhouettes. The background softened in gradient tones, the slogan emboldened above the mosaic. Style is bold and graphic, with playful use of colour to represent diversity—perfect for stickers or notebooks.
3. Quote:
“Broaden Your Slate, Broaden Your Mind”
Image Prompt:
A wide, open window or door leading from a monochrome office space into a lush, diverse landscape filled with different people collaborating. The words “Broaden Your Slate, Broaden Your Mind” arching above the imagery. The style mixes corporate minimalism with hand-painted detail, adaptable for t-shirts and mouse mats.
4. Soundbite:
“From Transactions to Transformations”
Image Prompt:
A handshake morphing into a lightbulb, the figures in the handshake subtly featuring differing skin tones. Rays from the lightbulb illuminate inclusive scenes (e.g., interviews, mentoring), with the words “From Transactions to Transformations” below in a smart, sans-serif font. Crisp, high-contrast vectors for mugs or badges.
5. Quote:
“Professionalise Inclusion. Make it a Superpower.”
Image Prompt:
A person in a bright, caped business suit (gender-neutral) standing confidently atop a pile of job applications, a glowing symbol of inclusion on their chest. The phrase wraps around in dynamic, comic-book style. The look: bold lines and pop-art colours, ideal for tote bags and hoodie prints.
6. Hashtag:
#NurtureBelonging
Image Prompt:
A stylised garden of diverse hands planting seeds that blossom into vibrant, multicoloured flowers forming a heart. The hashtag #NurtureBelonging sits below in handwritten script. Soft, watercolour style for a welcoming and gentle effect—useful for stickers, mugs, or desktop wallpapers.
7. Soundbite:
“You Can’t Change the World with a Gender Decoder Alone”
Image Prompt:
A ‘gender decoder’ printout feeding into a classic desktop printer, but colourful paper people emerge from the other side, holding hands. The quote merged into the printout as it streams out in comic sans-style lettering—quirky, cheerful, and excellent for stationery and stickers.
8. Slogan:
“Be the Bedrock. Build Belonging.”
Image Prompt:
A sturdy, stylised rock foundation with diverse figures building upwards—some laying bricks, others planting flags, all clearly cooperating. “Be the Bedrock. Build Belonging.” appears on the rock face. The artistic style is semi-realistic with an inspirational tone, great for t-shirts and mugs.
9. Hashtag:
#InclusionBites
Image Prompt:
A bite-marked, multicoloured biscuit (cookie) with small human figures of varied characteristics inside, like a rich fruitcake. The hashtag curves above. Fun, whimsical design—ideal for badges, stickers, and mugs.
10. Quote:
“People Aren’t Products. Include the Person, Not Just the CV.”
Image Prompt:
An open CV folder, but instead of paper, a smiling, diverse team emerges, each member unique. The words are written as if typed by an old computer keyboard, with the ‘o’ in ‘Person’ as a subtle smiley face. Clean, minimalist style for a smart, contemporary feel.
These quotes and slogans encapsulate the episode’s tone and messages, distilling complex insights into accessible, positive statements. Each image prompt aims to reinforce the message visually for maximum impact on any merchandise or as a social media hashtag.
Inclusion Bites Spotlight
Jo Major, this month’s Inclusion Bits Spotlight guest on Episode 173 of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, champions the essential role of recruiters in truly transformative inclusion. As a trailblazer in recruitment equity, Jo is shifting industry mindsets by equipping recruiters—both agency and in-house—with the practical tools, critical awareness, and authentic commitment required to embed equity and accessibility throughout the entire hiring process.
Drawing on over seventeen years’ experience in agency recruitment, Jo approaches the sector’s challenges with both expertise and empathy. She highlights recruitment’s immense—yet under-explored—potential to nurture both opportunity and representation. In conversation with host Joanne Lockwood, Jo unpacks how performative inclusion and box-ticking still undermine genuine progress, and how unconscious bias and homogenous hiring teams often turn recruitment into a self-perpetuating echo chamber. Jo calls for a shift: from transactional placement to consultative, strategic partnership with clients, so recruiters influence everything from employer branding and candidate experience to workforce planning and accessible hiring practices.
Particularly powerful are Jo’s reflections on the invisibility of mature candidates, long-term unemployed professionals—especially women—and the pervasive age bias that constrains careers and erodes self-belief. She advocates robust coaching, genuine community outreach, and invested talent development, arguing that inclusion must span every demographic if we are to avert the growing challenge of workforce exclusion as society ages.
This episode pushes us to consider: What does authentic inclusion look like when recruiters reflect the communities they serve? How can the industry rethink talent acquisition as social impact, not just commercial gain? And why must we move faster to dismantle stereotypes—across age, background, and lived experience—if we are to build the truly inclusive organisations of tomorrow?
Jo’s insights offer a compelling call to action for recruiters, HR professionals, and all those invested in nurturing belonging. She reminds us: Inclusion does not begin at induction. It starts with recruiters.
Listen, challenge your perspective, and join the conversation for change: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#InclusionBites #InclusiveRecruitment #Belonging #CommunityHiring
YouTube Description
YouTube Description:
Opening Hook:
What if your recruitment process isn’t just missing top talent, but actively preventing true inclusion? Discover why inclusion starts with recruiters—and what today’s hiring models get wrong.
In this bold and eye-opening episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, host Joanne Lockwood welcomes Jo Major, a trailblazer transforming recruitment by embedding equity, accessibility, and authentic diversity at every stage of hiring. They unpack why well-intended recruitment often falls flat, suffering from performative “tick-box” diversity and internal blind spots. Jo Major shares hard-hitting truths from over 17 years’ experience, highlighting how agency models and hiring metrics can exclude underrepresented talent, especially older workers and career changers.
Key Insights:
The myth of the “ethical recruiter” and why good intentions aren’t enough.
Why recruitment agencies must reflect the communities they serve—and the risks of a homogenous workforce.
How client relationships, hiring manager bias, and old-school sales models reinforce exclusion.
The overlooked power of upskilling, coaching, and supporting candidates—especially those facing long-term unemployment or age-related bias.
Why technology, generational understanding, and proactive D&I strategy set future-proof recruiters apart.
How rethinking talent development paves the way for robust, multi-generational teams and sustainable business performance.
Takeaways & Actions:
Dare to interrogate your own recruitment practices. Are your recruiters empowered to challenge bias and consult on inclusive strategy, or are you stuck on autopilot?
Audit your internal diversity and hiring processes—start with your own demographic mirror.
Partner with clients at strategic (not transactional) levels; challenge job specs, employer branding, and sifting mechanisms.
Invest in candidate coaching and upskilling—particularly for overlooked groups.
Embrace technology and generational change; develop authentic social media and candidate engagement.
Prioritise representation and lived experience at all organisational levels—not just entry grad schemes.
By listening, you’ll challenge what you take for granted in the talent pipeline, and reimagine what it means to build teams where everyone thrives, not just fits.
How will you think, feel or act differently?
Expect to question your own biases, feel inspired to push beyond surface inclusion, and act by championing recruitment as a force for deep social change.
#InclusionStartsWithRecruiters #InclusiveRecruitment #DiversityAndInclusion #RecruitmentTransformation #TalentDevelopment #AgeDiversity #EquityInHiring #WorkforceInclusion #SocialChange #InclusionBites
Listen to the full episode: Inclusion Bites Podcast
Share your thoughts or join the conversation: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
10 Question Quiz
Inclusion Bites Podcast: "Inclusion Starts with Recruiters"
Quiz: Host Reflections on Recruiter Inclusion
1. According to Joanne Lockwood, why is it advantageous for recruitment agencies to showcase their diversity and inclusion practices to clients?
A) Because it is mandated by law
B) To improve brand recognition
C) To demonstrate authenticity and credibility when proposing inclusive recruitment processes
D) To access government funding
2. Joanne observes that many recruitment agencies claim to be diverse and inclusive. What is her view on how this is often implemented?
A) It is always thorough and transformative
B) It is occasionally performative and tick-box
C) It is mostly resisted by leadership
D) It increases company profits immediately
3. When discussing the pressures on agency recruiters, which commercial metric does Joanne Lockwood mention as limiting genuine inclusive recruitment?
A) Total number of interviews conducted
B) Speed and time-to-hire
C) Number of social media posts
D) Percentage of CVs sourced
4. What expectation does Joanne set for recruiters regarding the internal reflection of their own practices?
A) Recruiters should focus only on client outcomes
B) Recruiters must first look at their internal processes and workforce diversity before selling inclusive services
C) Recruiters should delegate inclusion to HR only
D) Recruiters should automate all hiring
5. Joanne challenges the notion that recruitment is purely a sales role. What broader strategic functions does she identify for recruiters?
A) Budget analysis only
B) Organisational design, workforce planning, and employer branding
C) Payroll administration
D) Procurement
6. According to Joanne, what should recruiters do in response to hiring managers who lack experience and expertise in diversity and recruitment?
A) Let them handle everything themselves
B) Step back from involvement
C) Interface more strategically across HR, D&I, marketing, and become consultative talent partners
D) Focus on shortlisting only
7. In terms of evolving technology, what does Joanne believe recruitment agencies must do to remain relevant?
A) Ban AI and technology tools
B) Train recruiters to be technology experts and embrace digital advancements
C) Eliminate all technology from recruitment
D) Ignore technology developments
8. Joanne notes a lack of focus in the recruitment industry on what key candidate-facing activity?
A) Job pitching
B) Deep coaching and upskilling of candidates, especially those long-term unemployed or pivoting careers
C) Salary negotiations only
D) Purely administrative support
9. Regarding generational shifts and talent pipelines, what workforce demographic does Joanne highlight as being undervalued and essential for future workforce planning?
A) Only recent graduates
B) Only temporary workers
C) Experienced and older workers (Gen X, Millennials aged 50+)
D) Only international candidates
10. In the host's view, what ultimate value does fostering age and experience diversity bring to organisations?
A) Immediate profit from hiring younger workers
B) Bedrock stability, retention, and transmitted organisational knowledge
C) Faster onboarding times
D) Reduced training costs only
Answer Key with Rationale
1. C – To demonstrate authenticity and credibility when proposing inclusive recruitment processes
Joanne stresses the importance of "looking in the mirror" before selling inclusion as a service, ensuring internal practices match external promises.
2. B – It is occasionally performative and tick-box
She refers to diversity and inclusion being a "bit performative" or just "box ticking" for some agencies.
3. B – Speed and time-to-hire
Joanne highlights that recruiters are often incentivised on speed and time-to-hire, making inclusive processes more challenging.
4. B – Recruiters must first look at their internal processes and workforce diversity before selling inclusive services
She urges agencies to self-audit and ensure their demographic and practices align with what they promise clients.
5. B – Organisational design, workforce planning, and employer branding
Joanne distinguishes consultative recruitment from mere sales, listing these as vital expanded functions.
6. C – Interface more strategically across HR, D&I, marketing, and become consultative talent partners
She underlines the need for agencies to engage at broader organisational levels, not just with hiring managers focused on filling positions.
7. B – Train recruiters to be technology experts and embrace digital advancements
Joanne advocates leveraging AI and technology, not sidelining or banning it.
8. B – Deep coaching and upskilling of candidates, especially those long-term unemployed or pivoting careers
Joanne reflects on the market’s lack of investment in candidate development and support, especially for those facing difficulties.
9. C – Experienced and older workers (Gen X, Millennials aged 50+)
She discusses the demographic shift towards an ageing workforce and the need to view mature talent as central to future planning.
10. B – Bedrock stability, retention, and transmitted organisational knowledge
Joanne describes experienced staff as the “bedrock” who stabilise and contribute invaluable continuity in organisations.
Summary Paragraph
Drawing from Joanne Lockwood’s reflections, it is clear that authentic inclusion in recruitment requires agencies to assess their own internal diversity and practices before championing such values to clients. Despite a culture where performative box-ticking can dominate, genuine transformation means moving beyond commercial pressures like time-to-hire and embracing a broader consultative role—encompassing organisational design, workforce planning, and employer branding. As recruitment evolves, agencies must equip themselves to become technology experts, harnessing digital advancements rather than resisting them. Moreover, there is a pressing need to invest more heavily in candidate development through proactive coaching and upskilling, especially for longer-term unemployed or those considering career pivots. Addressing generational shifts, Joanne stresses that the experienced, older segment of the workforce will be pivotal, providing bedrock stability, continuity, and knowledge retention as the workplace demographic changes. Ultimately, inclusion is about leveraging the full spectrum of talent and fostering environments where both organisations and individuals can thrive.
Rhyme Scheme and Rhythm Podcast Poetry
Inclusion Starts with Recruiters: A Rhythmic Rethink
Within the beating heart of work, where teams and talents grow,
A story starts with recruiters' hands—the seeds from which we sow.
No idle breeze or empty phrase, this truth cannot be dodged:
For cultures fail or rise anew by doors that are unbarred.
To seek, to serve, not just to sell—recruitment’s higher call—
No box to tick, no shallow trick, but change that serves us all.
Consult not just to fill a seat, but probe what lies beneath:
What are the goals, the dreams, the gaps, what hidden barriers seethe?
Be wary of performative beats, the echo-chamber’s song,
Where diversity’s a banner waved, but practices go wrong.
True value springs from self-reflect, from looking in the glass—
Does your own team reflect the world, or do these chances pass?
In agency halls and corporate walls, too often, narrow bands,
Where hiring mirrors histories, not broad and open lands.
Yet recruitment’s more than simple trade, it’s partnership and plan:
To counsel, coach and build a bridge, from hiring need to brand.
Let’s challenge what a manager thinks: is age a fearsome foe?
Does bias lie within our hearts, or haunt the firm’s shadow?
The rich resource of “classic” skill—mature, not past its prime—
Deserves a chance, deserves respect; experience shapes our time.
So future-focused recruiters strive—embrace technology,
AI, social, data’s light to boost diversity.
Yet, candidates deserve respect, not numbers to be lost,
Support them, coach them, help them grow—see humans, not just cost.
The pipeline’s more than youthful streams; mid-career has much to give;
A pivot, path, or freshened start: new ways for all to live.
Build talent hubs, train, guide, inspire; let no one sit alone—
For every voice enriches work, if given space to own.
On changing tides and shifting sands, inclusion starts anew,
With actions shared and visions dared—the future’s shaped by you.
So listen close, reflect, connect, enact what you have heard,
And take these lessons far and wide—let equity be stirred.
If these bold thoughts have sparked your mind,
Subscribe and share with humankind.
With thanks to Jo Major for a fascinating podcast episode.
Key Learnings
Key Learning & Takeaway:
Inclusion in recruitment is not achieved through surface-level pledges or box-ticking exercises; it demands a strategic, multifaceted approach embedded within every stage of the recruitment process itself—and starts with recruiters holding themselves accountable, embracing ongoing learning, and facing sector-wide biases with courage. True inclusive hiring transcends performative gestures, requiring recruiters and organisations to critically examine their own structures, embrace generational and demographic diversity, and actively support both clients and candidates, especially those at risk of exclusion or long-term unemployment.
Point #1: Self-Reflection Is Essential
Recruitment agencies and professionals must 'look in the mirror’: evaluate their own demographic representation, hiring processes, and internal culture before credibly advising others about inclusion. Without authentic introspection, claims of diversity ring hollow.
Point #2: The Consultative Recruiter Is the Future
Moving beyond transactional practices, recruiters must position themselves as strategic partners. This involves understanding client business demands, advocating for inclusive hiring strategies, advising on organisational design, and participating deeply in challenges such as bias and talent development.
Point #3: Inclusion Demands Structural Change, Not Just Goodwill
Time pressures, outdated metrics, and resource constraints often prevent genuine inclusion. The sector needs to rethink its operating models—integrating technology, adjusting KPIs, and slowing down processes where necessary to ensure fairness and equity aren't compromised for speed.
Point #4: Mature Talent and Candidate Coaching Are Overlooked Assets
A relentless focus on early careers is leaving experienced workers, especially those over 50, at risk of being overlooked. Recruiters have both a commercial and societal responsibility to support and coach mature candidates, tap into diverse pools, and engineer community engagement through upskilling and re-entry programmes.
Explore these themes and more by listening to the full conversation on Inclusion Bites.
Book Outline
Certainly! Below is a complete, publisher-grade book outline transforming the guest’s perspective into a cohesive, structured format. The content directly reflects the themes, insights, and stories from the guest, foregrounding recruitment’s role in inclusion, industry culture, and actionable pathways for change.
Title Suggestions:
Changing the Face of Recruitment: An Inclusive Blueprint
Recruitment’s Responsibility: Driving Equity from the Start
Inclusive Hiring: Transforming Recruitment for Tomorrow
Beyond the Checklist: Real Equity in Recruitment
From Transactional to Transformational: How Recruitment Can Lead Inclusion
Book Outline
Introduction
A world where everyone can thrive begins with how we hire. Recruitment is more than transactions—it is the first step in shaping truly inclusive workplaces. This book offers an insider’s journey through the challenges, missteps, and opportunities in redefining recruitment for equity and belonging.
Visual Aid: Flowchart: “The Recruitment Influence on Organisational Inclusion”
Chapter 1: The State of Recruitment—Between Ethics and Expediency
Summary:
This chapter examines the current recruitment landscape, highlighting the disparity between an espoused commitment to inclusion and the everyday practice. The purpose and power of recruitment are reconsidered through the lens of industry experience.
Subheadings:
The Power Agency Recruiters Hold
Example: Reflections on starting an agency focused on ‘doing the right thing,’ yet lacking true inclusion literacy.
From Selling to Serving: Broadening the Recruiter Role
Performative Inclusion vs. Genuine Change
Quote: “There is as much box-ticking in recruitment as in the employer space.”
Obstacles: Speed, Metrics, and Model Resistance
Real-Life Example: Time-to-hire pressure inhibits depth in inclusive hiring.
Reflection Exercise:
Evaluate your own inclusion claims against real practices. What’s box-ticking in your world?
Chapter 2: The Diversity Paradox—Representation in Recruitment Teams
Summary:
Explores the contradiction at the heart of recruitment agencies: a sector with access to a diverse talent pool, yet lacking diversity within its own ranks.
Subheadings:
The Case of the Missing Mirror: Who Are Recruiters Really Serving?
The Legacy of Sales Culture and Its Impact
Invisible Barriers to Representation
Quote: “Why do we all look the same? There’s no barrier to entering recruitment.”
Moving Beyond the Stereotype: Towards Professionalisation
Visual Aid:
Demographic Chart: “The Diversity Gap Between Recruitment Teams and Broader Talent Pools”
Chapter 3: Redefining Value—From Transactional to Consultative Partnership
Summary:
Details the potential for recruiters to move beyond fulfilling orders towards being strategic partners in shaping organisational culture and talent outcomes, including employer branding and workforce design.
Subheadings:
Elevating Recruiters: From Filling Jobs to Consulting on Strategy
Why Deep Client Engagement Is Rare
Example: Lack of time with hiring managers—often limited to a five-minute job brief.
Building Consultative Skills and Building Business Value
Recruiting for Inclusion: USP or Unused Potential?
Quote: “DE&I expertise should be your USP.”
Reflection Question:
Where could recruiters add consultative value in your current hiring process?
Chapter 4: Technology, Innovation, and the Future of Recruiting
Summary:
Considers the accelerating impact of AI and digital tools both as threat and opportunity, underscoring the need for recruiters to become technology literate.
Subheadings:
Human Skills vs. Machine Process: What Must Recruiters Own?
Fear and Opportunity: Embracing Digital Transformation
Real-Life Example: Recruitment firms banning ChatGPT rather than upskilling staff.
Building a Modern Multi-Disciplinary Recruitment Team
Meeting Candidates Where They Are: The Role of Social Media
Visual Aid:
Infographic: “From CV Sourcing to TikTok Campaigns: The Tech-enabled Recruitment Journey”
Chapter 5: Rethinking the Candidate Experience—Coaching, Support, and Social Mobility
Summary:
Challenges the field to invest in candidates’ success, not just placements. Focuses on those underserved by the system—particularly long-term unemployed, mature candidates, and career pivoters.
Subheadings:
Beyond Job Matching: The Recruiter as Coach
Quote: “What are we doing to invest in those we can’t place?”
Women, Unemployment, and the Confidence Chasm
Social Value: The Case for Upskilling and Community Engagement
Example: External candidate coaching initiatives focused on senior HR women.
Imagining Talent Academies and Mature Apprenticeships
Interactive Element:
Action Step: Map out a basic support plan for long-term unemployed candidates in your agency.
Chapter 6: Age, Bias, and the Multi-Generational Workforce
Summary:
Investigates prejudices around age in recruitment, exploring the impact of generational dynamics, bias from younger hiring managers, and the profound underutilisation of older workers.
Subheadings:
Ageism: The Last Acceptable Workplace Prejudice?
Exposing Stereotypes: Who’s Afraid of Experienced Hires?
The Power of Generational Diversity
Quote: “Mature? Is that even the right word? Vintage? Classic?”
Practical Solutions: Retention, Retraining, Reimagining Experience
Visual Aid:
Career Arc Diagram: “The Value of Experience Across the Working Lifetime”
Reflection Exercise:
How age-inclusive are your hiring and retention practices, really?
Chapter 7: Beyond Business—Recruitment’s Social and Ethical Responsibility
Summary:
Places recruitment in a wider social context, arguing for community-focused talent pipelines and the need for a long-term approach to redressing systemic barriers.
Subheadings:
The Case for Investment: Beyond Filling Roles
Partnering with Local Institutions and Networks
The Long View: Changing Pipelines Not Just Candidates
Example: Cross-organisation collaboration on mature workforce development.
Measuring Success: Retention, Alumni, and Community Value
Interactive Element:
Action Step: Identify local partners for talent academies and propose a joint development plan.
Conclusion: The Inclusive Recruiter—Leading Change, Creating Belonging
Summary:
Wraps up the themes, offering an empowering call for recruiters, hiring managers, and business leaders to reimagine their role as true inclusion architects. The message: lasting impact comes only with courage, community spirit, and the humility to learn.
Call to Action:
Embrace ongoing learning and stay audacious about change.
Prioritise partnership, empathy, and accountability in every placement.
Start building communities—within agencies, with clients, and across the sector—centred around inclusion and belonging.
Refinement and Feedback
Expert Review: Engage with recruitment and DE&I professionals to refine content and ensure contemporary relevance.
Test Readership: Pilot selected chapters with agency teams and HR practitioners for resonance and clarity.
Iterative Edits: Incorporate real-time feedback, especially regarding interactive elements and case studies.
Chapter Summaries (Quick Reference)
1. The State of Recruitment:
Traces the tension between ethical aspirations and reality, revealing why genuine inclusion stalls under old models.
2. The Diversity Paradox:
Explores the irony of underrepresentation in agencies and its invisible barriers.
3. Redefining Value:
Argues for a new, consultative approach—where recruiters shape the whole hiring strategy.
4. Technology and the Future:
Examines the dual impact of AI and digital platforms, demanding a tech-savvy, human-centred recruiter.
5. Rethinking Candidate Experience:
Demands a shift to supporting the whole candidate, especially those overlooked or struggling.
6. Age, Bias, and Multi-Generational Work:
Illuminates the challenge of ageism and makes the business case for inclusive generational approaches.
7. Beyond Business:
Positions recruitment’s responsibility within the community, advocating for joined-up, long-term strategy.
Conclusion:
Inclusion starts—and endures—with recruiters who choose to reject the status quo and build new pathways for all.
Suggested Visuals/Interactive Elements Highlight:
Flowcharts, demographic infographics, and career arcs for conceptual clarity.
Real-life case studies and direct quotes for authenticity.
Action steps and reflection sections at each chapter’s end.
This book outline promises to transform industry thinking and practice, grounded firmly in the guest’s expert perspective and lived insight.
Maxims to live by…
Maxims for Embedding Inclusion in Recruitment and Work
Champion Equity at Every Step: Cultivate inclusion, equity, and accessibility as foundations of all hiring and workplace processes—not just for compliance, but for creating environments where everyone can thrive.
Lead with Authenticity, Not Optics: Commit to genuine inclusion over performative gestures and tick-box exercises—your reputation and results depend on it.
Mirror the Diversity You Seek: Ensure your workforce reflects the diversity of the communities and talent pools you aim to serve, valuing representation as a source of insight, credibility, and innovation.
Prioritise Relationships Over Transactions: Shift from short-term gain and transactional placements towards strategic partnership and long-term value creation for both candidates and clients.
Learn from Past and Present: Continuously update your perspectives and practices to respond to new societal shifts, market realities, and lived experiences.
Consult, Don’t Just Supply: Elevate your approach from merely fulfilling vacancies to offering strategic advice on talent, branding, workforce planning, and inclusive hiring processes.
Value Lived Experience: Recognise and champion the contributions of people at all career stages and ages—fresh perspectives and seasoned insight are equally vital.
Invest in Self and Others: Prioritise ongoing personal and professional development for yourself, your colleagues, jobseekers, and clients.
Technology is a Tool, Not a Threat: Embrace innovations in recruitment technology and AI as enablers to release capacity for human-centred, relationship-building work.
Practice Allyship for All: Champion systemic change and challenge stereotypes—particularly around age, gender, ethnicity, and background—within your own ranks and externally.
Coach and Uplift Candidates: Proactively support, coach, and guide jobseekers, especially those who face barriers, rather than leaving them to navigate complex recruitment landscapes unaided.
Meet Talent Where They Are: Tailor your outreach and engagement to the preferred platforms and communication styles of your target demographic; diversify your channels.
Balance Speed with Substance: Resist the myth that faster always equals better—quality, fairness, and inclusivity take time and deliver better long-term outcomes.
Professionalise and Elevate the Industry: Treat recruitment as a skilled, consultative profession, worthy of investment, strategic thinking, and recognition.
Challenge, Don’t Conform: Question industry echo chambers, disrupt inherited norms, and bring in voices and ideas from diverse sectors and communities.
Redefine Success: Move beyond fill rates and time-to-hire—measure impact by retention, satisfaction, workplace culture, and community transformation.
Reframe ‘Overqualified’ as ‘Highly Skilled’: Welcome experienced and ‘vintage’ talent, valuing their capabilities and adaptability as assets rather than obstacles.
Champion Lifelong Opportunity: Facilitate upskilling, reskilling, and career pivots throughout people’s working lives—talent does not have an expiry date.
Foster Confidence in Others: Build the confidence of those in your care—whether team members, candidates, or clients—to aspire, adapt, and advance.
Inclusion is Everyone’s Business: Embed the responsibility for inclusive practice in every function, from the front desk to the boardroom.
Let these principles guide not only recruitment, but the shaping of organisations and careers that value, include, and empower every individual.
Extended YouTube Description
Inclusion Starts With Recruiters | Steps to Inclusive Recruitment | Inclusion Bites Podcast #173
Are recruiters the real gatekeepers of workplace diversity and inclusion? In this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, host Joanne Lockwood welcomes Jo Major, a pioneering advocate for inclusive recruitment, to explore why “Inclusion Starts With Recruiters.” Discover practical strategies, industry insights, and bold ideas on transforming recruitment processes from tick-box diversity to authentic equity and belonging.
⏰ Timestamps for Quick Navigation:
00:00 – Introduction & Welcome
02:54 – The recruitment industry’s ethical evolution
04:48 – Performative vs. authentic inclusive recruitment
07:09 – Recruiters’ internal diversity challenges
09:50 – Why recruitment isn’t a chosen career – and how to change it
13:12 – The growing complexity of modern recruitment
16:47 – Shifting from transactional to strategic recruitment partnerships
18:12 – Proactive consultancy: moving beyond CV-sifting
22:19 – Professionalising hiring managers and recruiter roles
25:12 – Embracing recruitment technology and AI for better outcomes
28:58 – Social media, generational change, and finding diverse talent
33:11 – Candidate coaching: bridging long-term unemployment
39:12 – Midlife career pivots and age inclusion
44:37 – Debunking stereotypes: the value of experienced talent
51:17 – Rethinking talent academies and community pipelines
57:24 – The business case for retention and retraining
59:18 – Long-term talent strategy: alumni, returners, and DEI impact
1:01:48 – Why quick fixes don’t work in inclusive recruitment
1:02:56 – Connect with Jo Major & Episode wrap-up
About This Episode:
Are you an HR professional, talent acquisition manager, or D&I champion seeking to futureproof your recruitment strategy? This episode of Inclusion Bites is essential listening. Joanne Lockwood and guest Jo Major challenge the recruitment industry’s status quo, highlighting the vital impact recruiters have on shaping workplace inclusion, equity, and belonging.
Key Takeaways and Themes:
Ethics Meets Impact: Discover how genuine recruiter accountability, not mere box-ticking, drives diverse hiring and inclusive workplace cultures.
Internal Inclusion: Learn why recruitment businesses must mirror the diversity they promise clients to achieve credibility and successful candidate placements.
From Transactional to Transformational: Uncover strategies to elevate recruiters from CV facilitators to strategic talent partners who influence everything from employer branding to workforce planning.
Harnessing Technology: Explore cutting-edge uses of AI, ATS, social media, and generational insights to identify, attract, and support underrepresented talent pools.
Candidate Development: Understand the mutual benefits of proactive candidate coaching – especially for those returning to the workforce or seeking midlife career pivots.
Rethinking Talent Pipelines: Gain tips on creating community-driven academies, leveraging alumni networks, and developing programmes that prioritise both youth and experienced hires.
Age and Experience Inclusion: Learn how to tackle pervasive ageism, harness the power of mature workers, and build an agile, multigenerational workforce for tomorrow’s challenges.
Why This Matters to You:
Adopting a proactive, inclusive recruitment strategy enhances your talent pool, improves retention, and positively shapes your organisation’s culture and performance. The insights in this episode are immediately actionable, helping HR leaders, managers, and recruiters embed genuine diversity and equity at every stage—from attraction and selection to onboarding and development.
👉 Call to Action:
Subscribe for more actionable insights on workplace inclusion and talent strategy: [Inclusion Bites on YouTube]
Visit our website for resources, future episodes and guest opportunities: seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
Share your thoughts or join the conversation: Email Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Watch another related episode on challenging unconscious bias in recruitment: [Watch here]
Relevant Hashtags for Greater Reach:
#InclusiveRecruitment #DiversityAndInclusion #HRStrategy #TalentAcquisition #AgeInclusion #RecruitmentInnovation #BelongingAtWork #WorkplaceEquity #Podcast #CareerDevelopment #InclusionBites
Empower your hiring strategy—start with yourself, lead your team, and build truly inclusive workplaces. Listen, learn, and engage with Inclusion Bites.
Substack Post
Recruitment as the Front Door: Rethinking Inclusion from the Start
Is it possible for a truly inclusive workplace to emerge if recruitment remains an exclusive gateway? It’s a question I’m asked time and time again by those seeking to build cultures of belonging: are we, unwittingly, gatekeeping the very diversity we claim to champion? If you’ve ever pondered your own hiring practices or doubted whether your recruitment partners genuinely value equity, you’re not alone.
This week on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, I revisit this very dilemma in conversation with the brilliant Jo Major. Our episode, “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters,” boldly interrogates how the recruiting industry wields its outsized influence over who gets in—and who stays out—of our organisations. Whether you’re an HR professional, Talent Acquisition lead, D&I advocate, or responsible for learning and development, there’s food for thought (and practical action) in this episode that I simply can’t wait to share with you.
Challenging the Old Guard: Inside the Episode
Recruiters are often hailed—or blamed—as the front line of workplace diversity. But what does this really mean, especially when their work is sometimes defined by speed, targets, or even outdated stereotypes? My guest, Jo Major, has spent over 17 years embedded in agency and in-house recruitment, now dedicating her focus to transforming the industry. She’s passionate about equipping recruiters with workable strategies—and the mindset shift—needed to make inclusion more than just a tick-box.
Our discussion transcends the sound bites you might expect. We explore why so much of the industry’s current approach is still, frankly, performative, and what it truly means for a recruiter (or recruitment business) to put equity at the heart of their practice. We also reflect on challenges many of us have witnessed first-hand: the slow pace of cultural change, the tension between commercial realities and inclusion ambitions, and those persistent questions from hiring managers—often untrained or unprepared—to do the work of championing diversity.
Jo’s real-world insights, candid reflections, and readiness to ask the hard questions make this episode an invaluable listen for anyone responsible for hiring, partnering with recruiters, or shaping organisational culture.
From Tick-Box to Transformation: Lessons You Can Use
The recruitment landscape is shifting beneath our feet, but where do you stand? Here are the key actionable insights from my conversation with Jo Major that will help fortify your own approach:
Move Beyond the Diversity Slogan
It’s easy for recruitment agencies to slap “diverse and inclusive” on their websites, but the proof is in representation—and in practice. Jo and I discuss how hiring processes must be revamped to dismantle both visible and invisible barriers, starting with a hard look in the mirror at your own recruitment firm’s demographics and culture.Slow Down to Level Up
Much of agency recruitment is built on speed, volume, and output. Yet, as Jo points out, embedding equity, accessibility, and inclusion can require a fundamental redesign of metrics and expectations. If your business model rewards only speed, when do you ever get time for depth or due diligence? Consider whether you’re measuring what actually matters.Elevate the Recruiter’s Role
Are recruiters simply salespeople, or could they be true talent consultants? We unpack why relationship-building, consultancy, and expertise in both hiring strategy and inclusive practice should become the new hallmarks of recruitment. This includes engaging directly with clients on employer branding, workforce planning, and removing structural biases from job descriptions.Champion Age Diversity and Career Pivots
One of the more sobering realities of today’s workforce is the marginalisation of those over 50. Many face bias both from recruiters and hiring managers who favour those who “fit the mould”. Jo is unequivocal: the industry must do more to support mature jobseekers, invest in upskilling, and challenge age bias at source. If recruiting is about unlocking potential, who better to invest in than those with hard-won experience?Make Candidate Care a Cornerstone
Too often, candidate experience is overlooked until it’s a retention crisis or PR nightmare. We explored the need for recruiters—and employers—to coach, support and communicate with candidates throughout the process, especially those who may face systemic barriers. From CV clinics to social media branding and upskilling, there’s a huge unexploited space here for adding value and fostering belonging before day one.
Experience a Moment from the Conversation
Curious about how these themes play out in real life? I’ve pulled together a one-minute portrait audiogram that spotlights a particularly compelling moment from my exchange with Jo Major. [Watch the audiogram here]—it’s a snippet that lays bare both the frustrations and the possibilities that come when recruitment professionals start thinking beyond the CV pile.
I invite you: take a moment to immerse yourself in this segment, and see how these issues resonate in practice.
Take Your Seat at the Table
The full conversation goes deeper still, weaving together hard truths, hope, and concrete examples from the frontlines of recruitment and inclusion. Whether you’re wrestling with your own hiring challenges, reflecting on agency relationships, or wanting to build a more representative workforce that mirrors your community, you’ll find something of value.
👉 Click here to listen to the full episode of Inclusion Bites Podcast: “Inclusion Starts with Recruiters”.
I encourage you to bring a colleague along for the ride—share this episode within your team, across your LinkedIn network, or in your next D&I working group. Collective action begins with collective awareness.
Are You Opening Doors or Guarding the Gate?
As we reflect on the question that kicked us off, I’d urge you to consider: Is your recruitment—whether in-house or agency—truly an open door for all, or is it, however unintentionally, a gatekeeper maintaining the status quo?
How might you reimagine your hiring process—from candidate care through to client conversations—to ensure that inclusion isn’t left at the doorstep? What small steps could you take this week to create a culture where everyone, regardless of background, is welcomed and supported to thrive?
Remember, it isn’t just about getting people through the door—it’s about ensuring they want to stay.
Stay Connected and Keep the Conversation Going
If you’ve thoughts or experiences to share, I’d love to hear from you. Let’s keep this conversation alive—whether on LinkedIn, via email, or through your reflections in your own professional circles.
And don’t forget, you can always connect with me directly at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Together, let’s transform recruitment from a barrier to belonging.
Until next time,
Joanne Lockwood
Host, Inclusion Bites Podcast
The Inclusive Culture Expert at SEE Change Happen
What’s the first barrier you’ll help dismantle today?
1st Person Narrative Content
Title: Inclusion Starts With Recruiters—Reimagining the Power and Responsibility of Talent Gatekeepers
“No one leaves school aspiring to be a recruiter.” That’s the kind of statement that winds me up and fires me up in equal measure. I believe recruitment is one of the most influential levers for equity and inclusion that any industry possesses, yet it is too often misunderstood, undervalued, or treated as a stepping stone. If we truly want to build a world where everyone belongs and flourishes, then inclusion must start at the gateway: recruitment. The challenge—and opportunity—lies in transforming both the mindset and models of those who stand at the door.”
Recruitment, at its core, is both privilege and responsibility. For years, I thrived as an agency recruiter—seventeen years learning the rhythms and realities of this world. But it wasn’t until I started to interrogate my own habits, biases, and sense of impact that I realised just how much the recruitment profession shapes who enters, who rises, and who participates in our workplaces.
That realisation didn’t just alter my own path. It kindled a mission: help recruitment itself evolve to lead on equity, inclusion, and accessibility. This isn’t a side mission for recruitment—it’s the main event. Our industry is responsible for so much of the job market’s movement; we’re both mirror and engine for societal change. The Inclusion Bites Podcast, hosted by the inimitable Joanne Lockwood of SEE Change Happen, offered a potent and honest space to reflect on this challenge, the current realities, and what it means to do the work differently.
Joanne is no stranger to disruption. As founder of SEE Change Happen, she brings both lived and professional mastery to the world of fostering inclusion and belonging. Her episodes cut through surface-level chatter, pressing guests and listeners alike to dig into the systemic, the strategic, and—critically—the human. More than [INSERT_VIEW_COUNT] people have already watched our interview on YouTube, with many more tuning in via Spotify and Apple Podcasts. If this conversation sparks something for you—questions, pushback, or agreement—I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments below. I read every one.
Below, I will walk you through the most resonant themes from my conversation with Joanne, weaving in her insights, my stories, and the actionable ideas we surfaced. This is not just a debrief; it’s a call to those in positions of talent stewardship, however accidental or intentional that path has been.
The Tick-Box Trap: Inclusion Beyond Performance and Pretence
I vividly remember my earliest days in agency recruitment. Ethics were simply expected of me; the urge to “do right” by people was strong, but the language and tools of true inclusion weren’t yet on my radar. There’s a critical distinction between being “nice” or “fair” and architecting a hiring process that is actively equitable, accessible, and anti-biased. Yet, as Joanne put it with trademark candour: “So many just talk about being ethical. They want to create opportunities for everybody because it makes business sense… but it’s all a bit performative. It’s almost a tick.”
That observation stings because it’s true. The inclusion-washing that pervades recruitment is not for lack of good intent. It is, in large part, the outcome of survival-mode; recruiters—especially in the agency world—are measured by metrics that value speed, volume, and margin. Properly embedding inclusion? That feels like slowing things down. Many recruiters simply don’t have the resources or permission to overhaul the dusty models their KPIs demand.
When Joanne challenged, “What are you doing for yourselves?” she nailed the paradox: recruitment agencies sometimes promise clients the world of diversity, but fail to hold up a mirror to their own practices. “If you’re trying to show a better way to your client and you’re not matching that, it lacks authenticity.”
What’s needed is a fundamentally different approach to both internal culture and external service. Representation among recruiters themselves remains stubbornly homogeneous, despite the fact that our talent pools are rich in diversity. The industry should reflect, champion, and connect the communities we serve, not merely transact with them.
Moving From Sales to True Consulting: The Evolution of the Recruitment Career
One of the most persistent myths in recruitment is that it’s all about sales. The classic recruiter stereotype—slick, hard-selling, and motivated solely by commission—remains stubbornly embedded in both public imagination and, unfortunately, industry recruitment preference.
Joanne reminded me of Bill Borman’s quip: “No one leaves school aspiring to be a recruiter.” Instead, many fall into the field by accident—carrying over a sales background, only to find themselves in a cycle of placing people (rather than truly partnering with them or with clients).
But recruitment today should (and must) be so much more. It’s workforce planning. It’s talent development. It’s organisational design, job marketing, candidate experience, and consultancy in the real sense of the word. I see the most effective recruiters not only filling requisitions, but acting as business strategists—people who can understand a client’s employer brand, talent needs, workforce gaps, and even the pestle forces shaping their sector.
Joanne and I both agreed: the future belongs to true talent consultants, not transactional CV-slingers. If we let technology eat up the basics—sourcing, filtering, compliance—then the unique human value becomes advisory, contextual, and generative. “Why are we still plugging into the basics of what a recruiter does?” I asked. “Why aren’t we sitting with clients about organisational design, workforce planning, employer brand?” The path to professionalism and industry respect lies in elevating both our skills and our offer.
The Metrics That Sabotage Inclusion: Speed, Scale, and the Self-Defeating Race
Digging deeper, I see one of the great ironies of recruitment: the very metrics designed to drive results are the ones most likely to undermine inclusion. Recruiters are often measured on “time to hire,” volume, and output—rewarded for being quick, not for being thoughtful.
This speed imperative is deeply embedded, particularly in contingent models. When every tick of the clock means more pressure and less resource, the call to “build in inclusion” sounds like an alien language. “We need to slow things down,” I hear myself telling clients and colleagues. But that’s countercultural in an industry built on urgency.
In truth, a request for speed often masks deeper pain: clients desperate to make up for lost ground or retain market position. Yet, the “spray and pray” approach—blitzing job boards and databases—can never deliver true fit, much less equity.
So, I ask: what if we measured different outcomes? What if reward and repeat business accrued to those who could show not just fast placements, but higher retention, more diverse slates, better candidate experience, and deeper consultation? What if value was attached to genuine partnership, not just the number of CVs sent in a five-minute slot?
Unlocking the Untapped Talent Pool: Reinventing Recruitment for Over-50s and Beyond
Every conversation about inclusion in recruitment tends to default to early careers, social mobility, and emerging tech skills. Those are vital, of course. But the most underutilised, under-discussed talent pipeline is not young—it’s experienced.
I am increasingly alarmed by how hard it is for professionals over 50 to return to, or pivot within, the workforce. The data point is plain: our workforce is ageing, and yet both recruitment and client-side hiring seem obsessed with “youth potential.” It is as if experience evaporates in value after a certain birthday.
Joanne observed, “Millennials will turn 50 in 2030. At that point, over-50s become the bulk of our population or working population.” The demographic reality is inescapable: with declining birth rates and later retirements, the “classic” or vintage talent is our future. Yet, too often our hiring systems bias both explicitly and implicitly against them.
Sometimes, this is rooted in flawed assumptions on both sides of the hiring equation. Junior managers fear being overshadowed by seasoned candidates. Organisations fret about “fit” or “runway.” Candidates themselves may struggle with confidence, self-marketing, or resistance to starting again at a lower rung.
As recruiters, we must step up here—not just as agents, but as advocates and coaches. Are we creating programmes that welcome experienced professionals into new careers? Are we equipping them with upskilling, branding, or agency so they can be found and valued anew? Do we challenge clients who code for “energy” or “cultural fit” but mean “not too old”? These are not peripheral questions—they’re essential to an inclusive labour market.
Candidate Coaching: Beyond Transactions to True Stewardship
For too long, recruitment has focused disproportionately on the client side—on those who pay the fees. The result? Candidates, particularly those out of work for extended periods, are left to flail in the market. I hear from women with exceptional experience who, after 400 job applications and months of silence, feel hope slip away.
This is an unacceptable failure of stewardship. If we don’t see coaching, development, and candidate support as integral to our offering, we leave swathes of talent—and potential—invisible. “Who’s going to coach those people to get them into work?” Joanne asked, cutting to the core of the issue.
There are blueprints to borrow from: mature apprenticeships, returner programmes, alumni networks, and career academies. Some recruiters shy away, fearing “we can’t charge candidates,” or that it sits outside our remit. But here’s the truth: by investing in candidate readiness, upskilling, and rebranding—especially for those who no longer “fit” the outdated job spec—we unlock massive value for our markets, our clients, and the individuals themselves.
Recruitment has the opportunity to become a profession centred not simply on filling vacancies but on maximising human prosperity and organisational effectiveness, across all ages and backgrounds.
Levelling Up: Towards a Recruitment Model Built for Modern Inclusion
Where, then, do we go from here? For me, the way forward is both practical and radical. Firstly, recruitment firms must look inwards—turning the mirror on their own practices, demographics, and mindsets. Only by living what we advocate can we credibly drive inclusion for clients.
Secondly, we must evolve from “fillers” to full-spectrum advisors—blending traditional sourcing with deep understanding of recruitment technology, candidate attraction across new platforms (hello, TikTok), brand evaluation, and generational expertise. Imagine teams endowed with specialists in AI, social media, inclusion, and skills-based assessment, all available not just in senior executive search but across all levels and sectors.
Thirdly, we need courage. Courage to hold a higher standard, to push back gently (or not so gently) when clients demand bias-riddled shortlists, to open up never-utilised candidate pools, and to build new forms of partnership where business goals and inclusion are inseparable.
Lastly, we must champion continuous curiosity and learning. Recruitment evolves at pace. Yesterday’s magic formula could be tomorrow’s bottleneck. To keep up, we must peer over the fence—into marketing, tech, generational sociology, behavioural psychology—so that our own “group think” doesn’t become our downfall.
Closing Reflection: A Rallying Cry for Gatekeepers
At every point in my career, the most significant change has come not from the easy wins but from questioning the unspoken “truths”—and pushing for more. Recruitment is too valuable, too powerful, and too pregnant with potential to be left to habit or accident.
Inclusion truly does start with recruiters. It is within our gift and our grasp to shift the trajectory, not just of hiring processes, but of lives and of the organisations that shape our collective future. I do not accept the tick-box. I reject the “performance of inclusion” in favour of a meaningful, measurable commitment to progress.
If you’re a recruiter—agency, in-house, RPO or something entirely new—I urge you: stare down the metrics, untangle the old models, and remake your own sense of professional purpose. We are not just shifting CVs; we are designing society.
We may have fallen into this career. But we have the power to transform it into the vanguard of societal change.
If you’ve made it this far, I want to hear from you. What would it take for you to invest in inclusion from wherever you sit? Where are you seeing the bravest and most innovative talent stewardship? Drop your thoughts in the comments below. I read every one.
Ready to pick up the baton? Let’s build something bold—together.
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