Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in.
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The Inclusion Bites Podcast
The Science of Workplace Equity
Speaker
Joanne Lockwood
Speaker
Dr. Liz Wilson
00:00 "Team Culture Over Company Values" 05:39 Cultural Transformation: Behaviours Over Beliefs 12:38 Achieving Pay Equity in Organisations 17:23 Rethinking Inclusion in Organisations 24:32 Centre Strategy Over Extremism 28:32 "Moving to U.S. for Impact" 32:43 Inclusive Policy Challenges Worldwide 39:07 Inclusion Work Postponed Amid Uncertainty 46:43 Balanced LinkedIn Engagement Approach…
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Highlights
“Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone.”
“The True Source of Workplace Culture "It starts at the team culture level level, and that can be created remotely.”
“The Truth About Organisational Change "You actually can't change people's beliefs or values.”
“If you want to succeed in this organization and get past go and continue around the board, you have to complete this step. And so that step, whatever that is, if you were trying to create more inclusive organization, for instance, since we're on an inclusion bites podcast, we put an inclusive step in that is required to continue on that pathway, whether that's in a process in a talent acquisition cycle, or if it's in the business case and project cycle, whatever it is, that is the system.”
“We got what we gotta do is sort as you say, sort out our culture, clean the tank, making sure that, the organization is fit for purpose because that otherwise, you just you bring people in. They go, oh, it's smelly in here, and you walk out the back door.”
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Full transcript
It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.
And today is episode 159 with the title, the science of let's start that again. And today is episode 159 with the title, the science of workplace equity. And I feel absolute honor and privilege to welcome doctor Liz Wilson. Liz is a behavioral scientist and strategic inclusion expert dedicated to transforming workplaces, data, and research driven frameworks and organizational change. And when I asked Liz to describe her superpower, she said that it is turning personal adversity into a global mission for workplace equity and inclusion. Hello, Liz. Welcome to the show.
Hi, Joanne. I think that sounds my superpower makes me sound like I'm some kind of wild idealist thinking one person can change the world, but I guess you gotta start somewhere.
Well, I'm a great believer that as much as I want to change the world, I know all I know is I can change me. I think changing me, showing up the best person I can be is my mission and hopefully between us, we can influence by another person. And that's what we were that's what we're trying to do with, isn't it?
Yeah. And I've been well, before I even moved into working in inclusion, one of the things when I was focused on culture change was my career for twenty years before inclusion was I would say to people, you carry your organizational culture with you. So think of it, but sort of like your four square meters around you. That's your organizational culture and you have the influence over those four square meters. And so I think that's the same thing here that we can talk about. We take that culture with us, then those that step into that space, we can influence them to be our organizational culture.
Oh, I love that. I love that. Because I remember when we're coming out of COVID, you know, all those years ago, it's like seems like a lifetime ago, COVID. Oh, yes. I remember organizations, when they're trying to cram people back into the office, they're trying to crowbar them and this, this, wow. You know, the culture of the organization is this. We need you back in the office. We can give you our culture, and we can buy you in.
My my debate was I want my culture like my pension. I can take it with me from place to place to place. I don't need you to give me my culture. And so I want you to absorb or recognize my own culture and allow me to develop my my personal culture at home, my friends, my family, my community, and not expect me to drive two hours each way, just to have a bit of your call.
And if you're, and I'm looking up, cause I'm like drawing from like all of the experiences of organizations. Cause I've been a freelance consultant since I was 26. So I've not been an employee, a technical employee, but it means I've seen and been in a lot of different organizations. And for the most part, I could only name two or three of the dozens of organizations that would have cultural values that align with mine. So this values alignment thing, we could go deep into values alignment or not. But in terms of, we know how toxic some cultures can be and those cultures aren't necessarily organizations like you're saying about coming to the office and we can give you our culture. Organizations are nice in theory or conceptually is having a whole culture, but we all know it comes down to the manager that we're working with. Right? So T it starts at the team culture level level, and that can be created remotely.
Anyway, there we go. Duane, I didn't wanna hijack. We can
No. No. No. That's good. I I think let's let's go down there. I mean, you're so you're so right. It it does it does completely come down to the your point of contact here, your supervisor, your manager, the team you're in. Because I I'm I'm a great fan of a an author called Rutga Bregman if you've ever come across him.
He's, two books. One is, Eutopia for Realists, and the other one is Humankind. And I subscribe to his his belief system, and I think he's a he really sings to me. And what it it says is inherently people are good. We don't wake up to be bad people. So I I also believe that organizations believe they're good. And as we both know, perspective is everything. You know? Just just because I believe I'm good doesn't mean so that you believe I'm good.
So I think organizations do start off believing they're good as somehow that message gets diluted or gets lost through people. Because people, you can't predict them, can you? They're just they're just people.
When we look, I'm a, I'm a cultural transformation expert. Right? Like it's what I do for a living. So it's almost sounds like I'm talking contradictory to what I do and help organizations do, but hear me out on the theory on this one, because this is how it works in practice. So let's say you have organization a and organization a is currently culturally this. Now, if you're listening and not watching, I'm doing like the inverted commas funny you use in the air because really culture is made up of behaviors and actions. Okay. So you can say your behaviors are X, Y, and Zed, but it's, what's demonstrated. What do we behaviorally do and what are the actions and decisions that we make? So we can, it's more about how do we change behaviors and actions? Cause you know what, if we're going to try to move an organization or that organization from a to b, the point is you actually can't change people's beliefs or values.
And in fact, you shouldn't be trying to, that is in complete contrast to the desire to create diversity in an organization that enhances its ability to be creative and innovative and high performing. All you're trying to do is ensure there's an alignment of behaviors and actions to what are those principles or values. Is that true conceptual? I I don't know if I'm No.
No. I I buy into that completely. I think I think you're right. And, I simplify that down to there's a difference between fitting in and being embraced for who you are. Fitting in is is changing you for the organization. So what you're talking about there is you're embracing my culture and values, and hopefully they align, or we can find some alignment between this, but you're not forcing me into yours.
Now I'm going to bounce off what you've said. The yes, and on forcing. Where, you know, the title I think he gave us today was the science of workplace equity. So here's a bit of the behavioral science bit behind it. Okay. So the doctor in me, so is the PhD in behavioral science and in organizational culture. That's literally what my PhD was. So what hurts my feelings as a behavioral science person is that, you know, you can't actually start with developing people's behaviors.
I know, hang with me here. We actually have to create systems and architectures, which is the behavioral economics of things. We have to put systems and processes in place that force loosely. I don't mean with a stick, but just require. So I'll soften that word, a certain action to be demonstrated to go past go. I always, in my mind, I'm visualizing a monopoly board. If you want to succeed in this organization and get past go and continue around the board, you have to complete this step. And so that step, whatever that is, if you were trying to create more inclusive organization, for instance, since we're on an inclusion bites podcast, we put an inclusive step in that is required to continue on that pathway, whether that's in a process in a talent acquisition cycle, or if it's in the business case and project cycle, whatever it is, that is the system.
And then that means we don't have to change anyone's beliefs. It's just, if you want to succeed in this organization, you need to do this action. And then the more times you do that action, it turns into a behavior. And the the great stuff for me is as a cultural transformation person is the more things the actions turns into behaviors, the accumulation of those behaviors then become your culture. And that's the science of workplace equity by putting that button on the keyboard that requires you to go enter for inclusion.
So you're rewarding. So below training a puppy, you're, you're rewarded behavior. And that behavior is alignment with your corporate values. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah. So if inclusion is part of your own principles of your organization, there's pillars of success for your organization, you weave it into your ways of working across the organization. Like I said, whether it's and it's not just talent acquisition. I want to be really clear on for people is when we're transforming organizations to be inclusive. I do talent acquisition last. Right. This is, and that might hurt some people's feelings because that's where people tend to start because it makes sense. Right.
We need to get more diverse people in the organization. But I wholeheartedly believe that if all you do is focus on getting more diverse people into the room, you're just giving them another experience to have another, another opportunity to have a shit experience. We have to get our ducks on a row first and then create an inclusive environment systems, processes, architectures, so that when we do then get to talent acquisition and they come in, then they can bloody stay and thrive. Joanne.
Oh, I don't know if you're reading my mind or you've or I'm reading yours or whatever happened. But whenever I talk about, building equity and inclusion bike rides, I always talk about starting with retention in mind. We got what we gotta do is sort as you say, sort out our culture, clean the tank, making sure that, the organization is fit for purpose because that otherwise, you just you bring people in. They go, oh, it's smelly in here, and you walk out the back door. On all your investment in in the term acquisition, the training, the onboarding, just go straight out the window because you
And that's been the problem with if you think about the immediate in this point in time pushback politically and socially on, and I'm going to use the acronym because that's what people are using the DEI. So that's become woke was the bad word. Now we've got woke and DEI, which has become its own word. The people that are anti DEI think that it's just affirmative action and the recruitment process, right? That's in their mind. They're pushing back on that. When in fact, if we're creating inclusive organizations across the whole organization system, everyone's benefiting. And we can talk about the science bit that I've developed to help people understand that a bit more. And that's part of the problem.
If we create an environment that everyone can thrive, that the barriers are removed for everyone, that everyone can fulfill their potential. We wouldn't be having this problem where people think it's about someone else and not me, because in fact, we all have inclusion needs.
I'll keep going, keep going. I love it. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah.
I'm on a soapbox. If I go back to don't tell my professor, it was about a year prior to graduating my PhD. And I was, if anyone else listening has done a PhD, you get to a point I did a part time. So it was an eight year vlog and that that's me not swearing, but it's like, you're stabbing yourself in the eye. You want to give up. It's a horrendous journey. And if yours wasn't horrendous, then I'm jealous. So basically I went down a rabbit hole of researching about inclusion because what had happened is I'd heard that statistic at the world economic forum released, two zero eight years to gender pay equity.
Now I wasn't. Yeah. All right. So this is a while. I don't know. Maybe it was eight, ten years ago. I don't know.
It hasn't got any better. It hasn't got, if you've read the latest one, it's still no better.
Great. Anyway, so let's, let's call it ten years ago to be safe because COVID stole us our years and I don't know, everything's blown now, but I heard the number and I'm like, so I work in organizational change and I get hired by organizations to take them from here to here, whatever that here to here is. And invariably dependent on that gap between current and future state, we're looking at eighteen months, three to five years, right? So they're the three time average timeframes. And I'm like, but pay equity, like from a change point of view, this is, this is me naively not knowing anything about DEI. Right. Well, you know, I could do the data analysis within forty eight hours and then, you know, within a week, I could pretty much make sure all of the pays are rectified and then give me a, I don't know, a few months to change processes and procedures that whole system to ensure it doesn't flex back. I don't know. Then we've got to work on behaviors to make sure people actually put into place.
So maybe eighteen months, because I'll tell you, no organization is going to pay me for two zero eight years to fix pay equity. Figured if I knew how I could do that, like I knew it was just made. I just, I know exactly in my head, how I would do that. I need to look into how the world's doing diversity equity and inclusion. And literally that is what sparked my research into going into why aren't we getting the change we want? Why is it what's being done isn't working. That was my naive mind going into it. And that's how I started my research in inclusion.
So breaks it down. Why isn't it working? Yeah. That's what I wanna know. That isn't that the fundamental challenge with the anti woke DEI pushback? Because it it hasn't seen that the rewards, it was promising because people aren't tackling it the right way. So what's what's the headlines? Why isn't it working?
It's multi layered. Which one will I start with? Let's go with just purely because you were saying this immediate pushback at the moment. From behavioral science point of view, when we do change, whatever that change is in an organization. If I came into the organization and said, you know, Joanne, everything you've been doing up until today was wrong. I'll try to do that in a different time. When everything you've been done, you should feel bloody guilty for it because it's shit. You've been doing it wrong your whole life. So from today onwards, you're going to do it my way.
And do you know what that person or group of people or organizational teams would do for those not watching? They stick their fingers up at you. Right? It is like the behavioral science of it is no, I'm gonna push back that will not affect change. So that could be anything from your, the software you've been using to inclusive ways of thinking and working. Right. So we can't come back at you with an activist approach. Number one. So the change management approach hasn't been correct. Now, what I will say and acknowledge for those that are working in the space particularly is that I understand to look at me.
I walk into a room with a visual privilege of presenting as white in The United States. So let's park that. But the thing is we need to be able to see ourselves in the inclusion solution. So when someone comes into the room, my contemporary, my peer, that's also working on inclusive change and they've lived their life without the same privilege that I have as I walk into a room. There's frustration, the barriers they're fought, like invariably, I understand why they are coming at it with an activist approach. So please don't feel like I'm dismissing your emotion and lived experience, but unfortunately we have to park aside our emotion and approach it with a more understanding the science behind the neuroscience as to how it can affect the change. Does that make any sense, Joanne? I hope I'm explaining it okay.
It does. I've got my own metaphor, which I'll have you share in a minute. You carry on, you carry on going.
That's number one. Now in terms of seeing ourselves with any change, again, taking inclusion out of the conversation, there has to be a WIFM. And if anyone hasn't heard of that term before, it's an acronym for what's in it for me. Now, when we talk about the women's program, let's just use that. Right. Cause that was kind of the first movement, right? Like women vote, would think suffragettes. So if we take the women's program, Firstly, if we're giving women more opportunity to learn how to lead within an environment that isn't inclusive, you're actually not changing a system. You're just teaching them how to navigate a shit system.
What we need to do is actually change the system now to change the system in that if we use a very binary, just to make it an easy explanation on a binary scale of gender, or for men that need to change, not the women, but the science will say, as soon as you say women, do you know who doesn't listen? Because their brain is programmed. We've all only got a small amount of program, like processing space or RAM in our brains. So we're not going to listen because it's not relevant. There's the other problem. Then if we take that layer, that label approach, right? So you look at a change across an organization, and if you're doing a program on women, which is very common, LGBTQI plus, disability, race or ethnicity, religion, veteran, neurodiversity, right? There's only so much airspace. You end up overwhelming people with the communications and ultimately you're trying to achieve the same thing. You're all trying to create inclusion. So then the next layer Joanne, and I feel like you're nodding because in inside we're doing this confirmation bias of what you already know, but it's also, then we are all more of a one label.
So if you're doing a women's program. Sure. And I'll just use myself as an example, because that's the safest place to be. I know myself better than anyone. If you do a women's program. Great. But what about my neurodiversity, my ADHD, like how's that fitting into things? And then my chronic pain, which really presents itself as a disability, like how's that layering into the women's program? And then what about as a parent? And then when I lost my son and the grief of that, like, how does that fit into that women's program? Doesn't, it's not approaching people from a whole person perspective, the intersectionality of humans. And so that's where, once I identified all those things, all those barriers, I then developed the eight inclusion needs of all people.
And that's based on research and practice. It works globally across social, legal, cultural norms. Even across Asia, I tested it in countries where it's illegal even to be gay. So there you go. There's my big lecture. I hope I haven't watched.
I'm I'm just nodding in agreement. You're singing the same tune, the same hymn seat. So, yeah, it's, let me show you what my metaphor, and it it doesn't work in The US. Unfortunately, it's more of a it's more of an English British thing because the way I look at it is, I treat the people of privilege as a as a as a as a stereotype, as a group, as people in their castle. So we talk about the the knights of the round table, the people in their castle. In in ancient England, they they were living in their castle. Outside the castle, you had the peasants that for various different backgrounds, and the peasants were revolting because peasants are always revolting. They're not happy with things.
They want something different. But the people in the castle are going, it's fine in here. We've got enough fire, pigs, and sheep. We're gonna keep on living here. We don't need those pests. If the peasants start getting a bit bit feisty, they just start shooting them or doing what they're gonna do. They don't need the peasants. They're they're firing their castle.
Then one day, the peasants had enough. So they all storm the castle. They've got their ladders. They've got their their pitchforks. They come out the castle, People in the castle just pull the drawbridge up, stand on the ramparts, shoot arrows, and pour boiling water and oil over. And the peasants just end up running away feeling disillusioned. Still hate the privilege, but they're still they're running away. The trouble with this thing is this is what we're doing today.
You as an activist, you end up running up to the castle, banging your fist on the wall. We came black and blue, and all privilege is doing it, pulling the drawbridge up. So that what we're gonna do in the the first thing you're saying is, how do we lower that drawbridge? How do we get conversation? How do we have the centrist conversations where what's in it for me? We disarm. People approach the open mind where they say, actually, if I involve the peasants in my conversations, I'm gonna get better food. I'm gonna get better service. Yeah. Yeah. All the things I've, I don't have enough resource for.
I've got more people to help me though. And, I love
the knowledge. I have, I'm very visual. So I was, I had the whole visuals going with the bows and arrows with fire on the end of it. Like, I mean, I had the whole story going inside my hand then.
But that's what's happening in the world, isn't it? The privileged shore themselves up in their castle, and they're scared to let people in because they're worried about what's gonna happen to them. They think, well, hang on a minute. If I let you have some of what I've got, I won't have any left. You know, the zero sum game that we keep talking about.
So if that brings true things to mind for me, where you were talking about that castle analogy, I'm sure I don't know. I'm filtering in my mind. I'm like, no, just say it as you see it Liz. So I was in the shower the other day, and I know that might sound like too much information, but I don't know about anyone else. My brain, I think has a way of you plant a seed and then for a week or two, it does some kind of processing when I, I don't know when it's doing it. And then I'll be in the shower in the morning and boom, I'll have an answer or a solution to something. But this was me one morning of the past two weeks since the change in administration in The United States. And it's been really rough for lots of reasons, but I was in the shower imagining if I was being interviewed by Fox news.
Right. So I'm not, I have really thin. Yes. I have really thin skin. Right. I'm not good with conflict. Like, so, you know, it, it is one of my weaknesses. So I was imagining what would happen if I was interviewed? Like, how would I approach it knowing it would be coming at me with a conflict like conflict approach.
Anyway, I won't take you down the dialogue that I had in my head. However, what did come to mind is that really what I'm able to leverage is I look like them. That this analogy where we're talking about castles, I imagine myself, like I'm a sheep in Wolf's clothing instead of a Wolf in chief's chief's clothing. Right. And then me giggling to myself in the shower. Well, I'm a sheep in Fox clothing. But I think that is a privilege that I bring into a room that I'm quite disarming for those that perhaps don't believe in inclusion or the DEI acronym. So that in itself is something that I'm able to leverage.
And then once that's disarmed, I create safety around, well, they look at me and think I'm one of them. And then when I start to disclose my identities, they're like, so inclusion and diversity is about more than race or a color of a skin. Okay. So now we're just lowering that and they say, oh, I've got chronic pain too. Or like I had a learning difficulty at school and, you know, so it was, you know, you start to get to that point and then I go, right, let's look at these eight inclusion needs of all people. And when I take them through them, anyone can Google them. And, I don't want to have do a big lecture on it, because I could talk about it underwater for eight hours, but these eight inclusion is everyone can see themselves in them. And when they realize they need every single one of them for them to have them, then everyone else can have them too.
Pretty simple, really.
You think so? You think so? But that's that's the problem with with we're not translating the mission into language that people understand. And I think you talked about the activist model and I talked about the the peasants revolting against the castle. We need a different strategy, and I it frustrates me sometimes because I I've realized over the last ten years, I suppose, you can't change people with ingrained views and opinions that aren't willing to be open minded. So the only place you can engage is slightly left or right of center. You can make maybe influence people who are just just off kilter. And then once you've got them, you can then use that as a foothold to influence the next group, and then the next group, then the next group. You can't go straight into the the far right or the far left or whatever whatever analogy you wanna use. So we gotta try and work in the center, but I I often get accused of selling out because the center ground can't make change, and it's it's it's too liberal.
We should be standing up against fascist standing up against Marxists standing. I think my, hang on a minute. We could, that sounds like pitchforks and burning bushes and things.
Kind of
have to find that influence. Isn't it?
I say you can't put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour and train my beliefs out of me. It's never going to happen. So if we think a training course is going to change someone's beliefs, and in fact, you shouldn't be trying to change people's beliefs. You just shouldn't. Right. So, but if we lay over some education and understanding, find the what's in it for me for inclusion, if they want it for themselves, they're going to give it, will they by default have to give it to others, under this framework, we put systems and architectures in place and I'm just, it comes to mind, which might be worth sharing in case anyone hasn't heard of the behavioral economics study. That was basically about buffets, you know, the all you can eat style. And it was a controlled study of a conference group over two days.
And on the first day they put all the unhealthy food first and then all of the salads and healthy stuff second. And people filled their plates with all the unhealthy stuff first. And when they got to the end, a little bit of green stuff on the side. Then the next day they flipped the order of the food and they forgot the healthy stuff first. And then the unhealthy stuff. I'm not good at remembering exact statistics. One of my other weaknesses, but the calorie consumption change just from that economics or that systems and architectures change was astronomical. Okay.
You can Google it, go find the paper it's then that's what we're talking about here. We need to put systems in place that create inclusive action. Even if you don't realize you're doing it, you just do it because that's part of the process. We've got to make it the easiest option, not the add on or afterthought. So that's what I do with my clients. So globally, I've been doing this now for ten years, I think, where we apply the inclusion needs across the whole organizational system. And what I admitted to say before Joanne, I wanted to make it really clear when I mentioned the space, space, the inclusion needs of all people framework, I've made that complete open access. So that wouldn't be inclusive otherwise.
You can Google it, find the actual papers or Google it. And you'll find some explainer videos that I've got there. You can take that framework and use it and apply it in your work and creating inclusion at a team level, at a systems level for customers. I mean, it works across government decision making in the, in law and in education. Like it's completely applicable across everything.
I'll put the links in the show notes. So thank you. Yeah. Well, I'll have a dive into that later myself.
So there you go. I don't know. I was, I, did I go up on a tangent? I kinda remember now.
Yeah. I've I've I've followed you and I'm I can't remember what the start line was. So Liz, you've, your accent, we were chatting the agreement before we went live. You're in The States. Is it Denver, Colorado right now?
Yeah. Correct. Yes. So, yeah,
Canyon sort of,
so Rocky Mountains. So you hear of Dale and Breckenridge and Aspen, they kind of like an hour or two hours away. I'm pointing with my arm because that walks me out my window in that direction. And so, yeah, we moved here three years ago and really it was for my work and the purpose, you know, when we started off by saying the beginning, you know, through adversity, which we haven't really tapped into just yet, but through adversity, on a mission to create a world where everyone can thrive. And my original research and practice was based on Kimberle Crenshaw's research on intersectionality. I felt from little old Australia while I was working right across the Asia Pacific region. A lot of the times I was working with organizations that had headquartered organizations in The United States. And I figured if I'm gonna make a bigger impact, I've gotta move here.
And so that's why I'm here. Yeah. It's a new change.
Because Australia, Australia, New Zealand has its own challenge with the indigenous Aboriginal first first nation people and also Pacific Islanders. So it's a it's a it's a challenging space as well. In fact, it's more intersectionally diverse from a racial perspective than anywhere else in the world, I guess, as well, isn't it?
Look, New Zealand, if we were to use case studies on inclusion for indigenous populations, New Zealand have nailed that one. They're doing a great job, of including and respecting their indigenous population. You know, Australia is on its path. My best friend is Aboriginal and she's a CEO of an indigenous organization. And, of forty years, don't tell anyone that we've been friends for forty years. It really adds years to our lifetime. Doesn't it? So she it's, I mean, this is going down a rabbit hole, but she came and visited me the last year or maybe the year before Australia had a vote on a referendum since, you're coming from a Commonwealth country as well. You know what a referendum is, but it's just, it's not, you're not voting for a politician for those that are listening outside of Commonwealth country, you're voting for a decision.
So you're just basically walking into a booth and voting yes or no on something. And this was for something. I think they, the nickname for, and I was here while it was happening. So I'm not really up on the whole social discussion around it, but it was in principle for the indigenous population to have a voice when the government was making decisions that impact the indigenous population. And so it went to the popular vote for a yes and no. And my best friend was here when, the announcement was made that Australia voted no. That no. Our indigenous population should not have a voice when decisions are being made that impact them.
And I'm paraphrasing here. Right. But that's really disappointing in 2020. Well, that was 2023, I think. Right. But far out, there's still so far to go and look, intersectionality, the indigenous population in Australia have that laid experience of being both the indigenous population where genocide occurred. So So if we compare them to United States, that would be similar to the indigenous populations here. However, they're also laid with the black identity of which, the, black or African Americans experience here too.
So that they have an extra layer. Joanne, you know, that I could talk about all of them to stop forever, but across what I found most interesting though, And I will say when I was developing the eight inclusion needs, working, presenting it into the indigenous population, into Aboriginal Australians, I was super nervous. I was like, I need, if this doesn't work with them, this isn't going to work globally. And so I, you know, went with trepidation. Absolutely. When you start delivering the inclusion needs, there's a bit of resistance. You can see it physically. And there are other questions until you get to the end, they realize that they are more than just indigenous.
And once, once they realize there's more to that, they go, yes, we can use this to shape policy. You know, so then when you start then working your way up through Asia and other countries where really we're talking about it's illegal to be people. Like you can't even legally be yourself and it becomes, you can't actually talk about creating an inclusive environment by using the words. So you can't say, yay, or let's just use that to see, I could use LGBTQI plus or any of those terms or queer. You can't use those terms because it's illegal to be that. So when we're able then to use the inclusion needs, we are talking about whole people and that whole inclusion needs rather than diving into one specific, specific label as well. So, yeah, it's an interesting space and where we then flick back to The United States. I've worked with global organizations, very famous ones, and I have worked with them to create their five year inclusion strategy, spend several days with them.
Like I did a lot of homework and data analysis and stuff, and then do some in person stuff. Then I go lock myself in a room and do analysis and then come back and we do some more co creation work. And I have got to the end of multi days working with chief diversity officers, their strategy teams, their C suite. We've developed it. They've been part of it. And I literally walked out of the room on this particular client and a very senior person in that room said, so it can't just be about race. Five days of working with them in person. And I'd been doing work with them for a long time.
And that's the barrier that I'm facing here in The United States is that in a lot of people's minds, inclusion is only about the color of your skin. So very interesting.
All your fairness, if you look at what's going on at the moment is calorie, skin and queerness. It seems to be the, the big pushback at the moment is people aren't focusing yet on neurodiversity or disability. That's that's kind of the acceptable side of inclusion, isn't it? It's the racial and sociality.
Yeah. The politicization of it where we've got, because in my experience in Australia, actually in the rest of the world, human rights, isn't politicized. He, that was actually one of the biggest culture shocks for me, really a big jarring how human rights is politicized. And, there is this, I would say they've taken race and trans. So not even LGBTQI plus right? Like the politicization of it is the far right taking, one identity out of that community and black. And then, I don't know, the black fear is about fighting the inequity of affirmative action, which obviously impacts women as well. And then the trans bit is obviously attacking people's healthcare needs. Like it's just, and then fear mongering.
Oh, I'm just anyway, I'm sorry, Joanne. Now, now I start to get my ADHD brain starts to go off in all tangents and getting all emotional about how horrid the last couple of weeks have been for my friends who are trans. I'm sorry. I'll lose my track.
Yeah. No. No. You're you're not the first guest I've had on the show. Some just before I I was I had I was with a an American lady on the day of the election, and by the she was running a training course. And by the end of the day, she was head hand head of her hands, and she was gonna have the worst day of my life sort of thing. And it was, and I've interviewed other people since. And it it's it's one of these.
We had a similar we had a referendum. I don't know if you've heard of this, about Brexit leaving the European Union back in, I think, 2016 or whatever it was. It just highlights the idea of group think and affinity and those sort of things, you know, because if you're on one side of the fence, you've actually got no idea how people on the other side of the fence can even believe what they're hearing. I mean, probably the same as your, story about the the indigenous vote in in Australia. How can anybody not think this is a good idea? And then the vote goes against you. You think, well, clearly, the majority of the population do think it's a bad idea. So why did I how did I miss that? That's that's part of the problem I've had is Yes. Whatever happens in The US, I have to look at myself and say, well, 73 or million people voted for that person and they got more votes.
So who who's wrong? Is it me? Should I question myself?
So it's been as of recording today, so clearly we'll go live with this at a different time, but it's been two weeks and one day since the new administration came in. So let's just put this in a time context. In week one, immediately following I had three federal contracts cancel their work with me. Obviously I won't name them, but one of them in particular, when they, they scheduled the call. I just saw the zoom meetings going, right. They had my calendar. And I saw the zoom meetings go in and I knew what they were going to be. Why else are they special meetings that week? And it was the Friday and I get on the call with them and there's two of them.
And they're not diversity equity or inclusion practitioners. They are people that lead businesses or government departments. The one of them was actually hearing, as she was telling me that we have to stop the work. We have to cancel it. And I found myself consoling them. But to the point I was only due to deliver the work two weeks later. Right. So it would have been this next week or this week that I would have been delivering the work.
And they said, we don't even know how we're going to be able to pay you for the work that you've done so far, because we don't know if we'll be able to get that invoice paid. Right. So that was crushing around me on that Friday. That following weekend was my son's anniversary of his death, two weeks, two years after his death. So I have that compounding as well. Right. So your resilience is lowered already. I've got all of that.
Then last week, two of my smaller organizations, but still in, in The US small organizations have thousands of employees have postponed their inclusion work just because they just want to need to find their feet and where they sit with everything. And I'm like, this ripple effect, isn't just, you know, the stopping in federal departments, small businesses. So in my example, might not get paid for work that they've they've done. And this is just on the GI stuff, right? These two weeks I've had such a significant flight response. And I really do mean that, you know, there's this fight or flight. No, I really, I was Googling because we have a dog. And my husband's English, just to listen as how do I move my dog to The UK with us? We've decided we will get on the Queen Mary because he can come with us on the Queen Mary and we can ship everything else. Right.
So I already know how we'll do it. But then on self reflection, I have had a bit of pity party for myself. Not because it's bad for me. I mean, it's because of my mission for global change. Right. And then I realized I have this privilege of not having an employer. I don't have a brand I had to tow the party line for. So I have decided to make a little bit more controversial noise.
I mean, I already told you that I have a thin skin, so I haven't gone really bold, but I have been a little more honest about some of the issues that we're facing. So anyway, I'm sharing those on my LinkedIn. And if anyone wants to go see those feel free to, but, Joanna, I want to share one observation about the far right. And, when I started the blog, the trolls, they came out from everywhere. Right. And the trolls will either go publicly or in your comments or in straight into your message box. Now I figure if you're brave enough to put your comments publicly on my post, then we should have a public conversation about it. So I went to the trouble of looking up who their employer was on their profile.
And then I went to see if their organization had the values of inclusion and had it plastered on their website. So then I would come back to the message that they'd left and go. So I just, I'm curious really just out of curiosity, I can see your organization says this about diversity inclusion on their web. How does it work for you working in an organization when your values don't align with your organization? And of course I tagged their organization as well. No trolls have commented on a single post since. So maybe I've achieved something. They're still dropping into my inbox though, unfortunately.
I've said that once and someone was trying to troll me about something and, I got a warning from LinkedIn because they'd accused me of bullying them by exposing their views to their employer. So they, tend not to take that approach anymore because, as I say, I've been reported to sabotage.
Well, you could argue it and I cannot not you. They could argue it. And I would say, no, I haven't take I haven't screenshotted people's private messages in LinkedIn. You had a public conversation with me. I'm having a public one back with you. Like, oh, yeah. Okay.
So they don't like being called out is is is what you're saying. People people wanna hide with anonymity or believe the conversation they're having. They've blinkered. They don't they don't see what they're doing. And I I see that a lot. And as a transgender woman, I get a lot of, hate mail, hate comments by by YouTube as a of a badge of honor sometimes. What people comment on?
Joanne, the YouTube thing, because I've been putting these same vlogs on YouTube. So my podcast the last two years has been on YouTube. And I wanna come back to that for a second where you're saying there. And people are much braver on YouTube because it's way more anonymous on their, on their hatred comments. You can't, you don't really know who they are. But out of my, all my seasons, all the episodes across my seasons, I think there's like 50 or so episodes. And all I do is interview people that are different to me so I can learn how to better meet their inclusion needs. Now, one of my friends here in The United States, her daughter is trans.
And so we had two episodes, one with Olivia, the mother, talking about her experience as a parent of, a trans teen who is transitioning. And then the second interview was with their child. And so those episodes have a lot of hits and, it's really interesting. There's a lot of hate on it, but I had to on the teens episode, so I feel it's okay. I think I'll leave it because Olivia, the parent is a grown up. And so whatever commentary is made there, we can deal with, but I had to delete and block comments on the Trans Teens episode because the comments were horrid. So I'm sorry, Joanne, for the population that are assholes at anything that they write or more content.
I think we said earlier, either on air or or before that, all engagement is boost boosts engagement. It's a so I I think I do a lot of these Fox News type interviews, but they're on a channel in The UK called GB News. And one of their shorts of me went, as far as I'm concerned, viral by my standards, at 1,600,000 views and 50,000 comments and reactions and loads of shares. So I just thought, well, I I I looked at the maths and thought, hang hang on a minute. It's 1,500,000 views or 1,600,000 views. It's got something like, I don't know, four or 5,000 comments, and all the comments are toxic. But it's got something like 40 or 50,000 likes. So I'm assuming that most people who like it Yes.
Were in favor and the people who commented, the ratio of likes to comment was actually the other way around. I I very rarely delete comments. I leave them I leave them for for educational purposes.
I agree. Because as soon as people say, oh, no. There's no real problem. It means they actually don't have
the choice.
And that's a good point. But what I was gonna say is one of the giggles I have to myself, it's just an internal giggle that we'll share outside with everybody else right now, is that these anti trans people, the more they comment on trans content, the algorithm provides them with more trans content. So I'm like, I giggled because I'm like, you're doing it to yourself. You're you're being anti trans, but you're getting more trans content because you're commenting on trans content. I think it's brilliant. If I mean, algorithms have a lot of things wrong with them, but that one on social media, I think, is fabulous.
Yeah. And, yeah, we just need to educate people. Just jog on by, scroll on. You know, you don't need to stop and get angry for
Yeah. Well, that's
what what you wanna do.
Right. I mean,
a lot of them are bots and and trolls and things like this that are are not real people or they're they're just automation. So, yeah, it's hard to tell what the, because it the same comments are echoed again and again and again. And it's either they're so ingrained in their ideology and thinking that they've got this playbook that that's how they wanna comment or or they are, as I say, bots or trolls that that will automate, say, I don't.
If people are LinkedIn users and they do, you can follow a bit of a trail that when you see someone post a hate comment, and you go onto their profile and you see their most recent activity, you just see a whole consistency of hate. So that's all they do. They just go on there and post the, rhetoric that, you know, it's hurtful and not helpful.
Yeah. I, I dunno if, I dunno if I should be puzzled or whatever it is. I I don't get much hate on LinkedIn. I don't know what it is.
Right.
I suppose I I approach LinkedIn with a very inclusion, balanced sort of perspective. I don't I don't go for the activist stance. I go for the, I speak from the eye. As you said earlier, you know, if I speak from my from my message, I can always speak my own truth. So I I don't tend to post things that are kind of worthy of fee or if they are, people don't wanna be called out on it because, you know, I've got, what, 27 and a half thousand followers is enough to most of the people these people you're talking about have got five, six hundred or less than a thousand followers. Their amplification is, is, yeah, they'll be exposed a lot wider. They're no longer speaking in the dark, if you like.
And so it's, it's interesting how you say, I also held myself to a standard where I didn't want to step into any controversy. I wanted to make sure that as a professional leading a very different way of thinking around inclusion and transformation in organizations, I just wanted to protect that to prevent any reason that an organization wouldn't hire me. And it really has only been over these last two weeks where I went, yeah, I think you need to make a bit more noise because there are some people that can't. So there you go.
I've I've said this a number of times on other interviews on various various times that I go for the, the Marmite approach. If you've not heard of Marmite, then Australia's Vegemite or whatever. It's kind of
Marmite's better than Vegemite. I will, I will admit it.
Yeah. So it it's you gotta polarize your audience. You know, if you gotta you gotta mean something and say something. So I'm a great believer in that. You know, if I polarize the audience, at least people who love me will come and talk to me. People who don't wanna deal with me, they, they keep away, which is brilliant. So I didn't have to throw in my followers down.
As any Vegemite or Marmite, consumer will agree. It's about the quantity of Marmite balanced with the amount of melted butter on the piece of toast. Right. It's to be very clear. So if it's about the recipe and how we present it, maybe that's part of the another analogy for you as with your castle analogy.
Yeah. So, yeah. So you're, I'm delivering Marmite, the acceptable taste of Marmite is what you're saying, rather than just being the raw.
Let's go, oh, I've tried veggie. I took a spoonful of it. I went, oh my God, that's disgusting. You don't eat it like peanut butter. Right. It's a scraping over copious amounts of melted butter on a hot toast. If we deliver inclusion like that, then everyone will eat it.
Yeah. And I'm not a big Marmite fan. I do eat something called twiglets. I don't know if you have twiglets, but they're they're basically little Christmas snacks that are coated in Marmite. So twiglets, I can I can just keep eating these? It's just saying it's how it's delivered. It's delivered in a package that is thin and tangy, not capturing your entire mouth. Yeah. So I can I can do it?
You're in the face. So there we go. We've just come up with a new analogy on how we deliver culture change on inclusion.
So you have to bread it thinly enough so people still get the taste of the butter and the bread without overpowering them with the the full veggie bite mom might experience, isn't it what we're saying?
Yeah. That's gross on a teaspoon.
Yeah. Force feed it like, like some sort of chartered medicine that we get used to with our parents. Absolutely. So this year, you were saying earlier that, you've had a few traumas in your life and something you put the show notes was, hey, you got expelled in your eight. It's great. Do you wanna Yeah, sure. Expand on when you were a bad girl?
No, very strange. So I went to a little, little tiny Catholic primary school, K to six. I didn't realize it, but I was a smart kid. I didn't know that. And, I did some exams and got into a, what we call selective schools, here in Australia. And, there's three of them in Sydney. They're girls schools. They're public schools though, as in Australian, you call public schools a different thing over in the, in The UK.
But anyway, they're the ones that don't cost any money to go to. Okay.
So, date school, a date school.
There we go. So, right. So it's just all girls selective. So everyone was, had, had to pass exams to get in. And turns out I didn't feel very smart at all there. The culture wasn't great for me at all. And as soon as teachers were telling me I was bad at things, I believed them. So I'm very heavily influenced by my external environment.
Tell me I'm shit at something. I'll believe you. I'm not one of those I'll prove you wrong. Wish I was. And so the, layer over that in the 1980s, girls didn't have ADHD. There was no such thing. Only boys did because it was presented in a certain way, you know, swinging on chairs and throwing shit in classrooms. That wasn't me.
Like I was, I wanted people to like me. So I wanted, so I didn't present the way someone with ADD or ADHD would have. I got diagnosed in my forties. It makes a whole heap of sense why I rebelled in the classroom. Okay. I was disruptive, chatty. And then I just, the way they taught was auditory and I'm not, I'm not an auditory learner. Like there's a whole heap of compounding effects.
What I got expelled for, should we tell people, Joanne?
Oh, just between you and me, forget to say I want to listen, just go
for it. No, I actually literally got expelled for something I didn't do. And people go, oh yeah, sure. I think no, no, no. True story. 03:12 train. Right. Every afternoon, the bell would go at three.
If you ran really quickly to the station, you could get on the 03:12 train. Me and five of my friends bolted to the station to get the 03:12 train. We're on Platform 2. So now seems like it's late. You hear the announcement over the overhead speaker, you know, really unclearly, but the three twelve has been canceled. The three eighteen will be coming in on Platform 4 next. Four of my friends decided to jump down Mission Impossible style, run across the tracks up onto Platform 4. And I'm like, excuse my language, fuck that.
So I've walked around because I'm not, none of a death wish. So I walk around. These girls were getting in trouble from our school captain and their names are getting taken down. And I'm like, well, for the first time ever, this it's not me getting in trouble. So I'm safe here. Two days later, I get called into the principal's office. Now, when you're naughty as I was, I was regularly in the vice principal's office because he's the person that does the discipline. Going to the principal's office was net.
You knew it was next level. And when I went into that room, my mum was in there and now I'm like, here, this is really bad. And I'm like, I didn't even know what I've done at this point. It turns out that those girls completely colluded, threw me under the bus all the time, you know, that analogy and said, I told them to do it, tell them to do it. Why would I tell people to do something I wouldn't do myself, but because of who I had been and the behaviors that I demonstrated prior, I had been put in a box and they didn't believe me. And so I was expelled. So that's the expulsion story. But if we translate that across to sure, how does someone that got expelled in when they're 13 years old, who was failing everything? Cause I'd given up once I was behind on stuff, I just went, I'm not, I'm not going to bother.
Then my mum found a new school for me to go to. And I swear to you, Joanne, it was on the first day. You're still nervous. You're in front of, this is a big school. So each grade had about 200 kids in it. So at the beginning of grade nine, standing there at the front of the whole view and, I had the coordinator or whomever it was said, okay, we have a new student joining us this year. Elizabeth. She comes from this school.
So we expect great things from her because everyone knows it's a selective school. And I swear to you, I'm looking I'm looking over my shoulder. Is there another Elizabeth? Because no one expects great things from me. Well, at least they haven't for the last two years. And literally my life changed within weeks. I had teachers giving me great feedback and telling me I was doing a great job. And then you know what happened? Just, I got better and better and better and better until I was a great student. I covertly might've been a little bit rebellious, but nothing too bad after that.
Your imposter syndrome is reinforced by, by people telling you you're, you're not good. So you don't, you don't, as you say, you don't fight back. You just go, oh no, I can't I'm rubbish. I'm rubbish. It was just like a death spiral from.
And I've learned of, of over the last ten years through this ADHD diagnosis is that's part of that when you get criticism that you're hypersensitive to it. So you just don't have the, the normal resilience that someone else would have to criticism. Makes a whole percent. I mean, or anyway, like, ah, there's just so much stuff that when you, like, it might seem like nothing. I'm still the same person with ADHD, but once you get, and I, people call it, I don't like to call it a label, but once you get to understanding something more about yourself, you go, that is why I don't feel so bad about myself now because I know what is happening. And in fact, it makes it easier. Say for instance, my husband who is, on autism spectrum and has OCD and a whole bunch of other things. We talk about what, what else is wrong with us in this, in this house? But, because we're so different, but he understands why this is happening for me now.
It makes it so much easier because he used to think I would do things out of spite. Like I'll give you a really good example. Let's say he emptied all the little small bins in the rooms on bin day, rubbish collection day. And then he would leave the empty one, this in my office at the door for me to put back it back in under my desk. And then I'd be back at my computer working and the bin would still be at the door. He goes, he thought I was doing it to spy him. I went, no, I didn't see it. He goes, you had to step over it.
I go, didn't see it. My task was to get to my computer and work. And now he knows it's not me going, you didn't put my bin under my desk. It was me just, I just didn't see it. So anyway, there's a bit about that. I part of my identity, which is also a superpower because I can sit at my desk for eight hours straight and forget to eat and go to the toilet. So there is some great benefits to it as well.
I love that. I love that. I suspect that I have some tendencies and I've never bothered exploring it. Because by the time I'd realized it, I was invested in my transgender identity. I didn't need another diagnosis for anything else. So I I just mixed the whole thing up, and I find I kind of understand myself now that, not the examples you give, I also would resonate with and, hyperfocus, get stuck into things. And also I'm a person I'm either a % in or a % out. If I'm not interested, if I get behind, I can't be, but I've done it.
I've read it. I'm out. How can I play? I used to play darts and pool. And once I myself just feel as if I wasn't in the mood, I just wasn't interested in playing, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't care about winning. I didn't care about losing. I just want, well, do not play anymore. Whereas another day.
I'm out. I get bored. So, yes, I hear you. And in fact, one of the things, so two things come to mind when you share that with me is that, you know, when you will go somewhere new and they'll go, what's your name? And some, some, some, what's your hobby. And my whole life, I didn't have something to share as a hobby. So I didn't have one. Right. Like I do things, but it's because I like to do all different things because they get bored with one thing.
And I only realized that that's why I never had a hobby of late was because I just like to do new things all the time. So that's the getting bored or, you know, to always doing something new. But when we're looking at, when we talk about diagnoses of something, that's, it's not something that you've only just got. And people keep saying in the news or in the media or social media is that all these women in their forties are suddenly coming out and saying they've got ADHD. It's like this wave of like popularity. No, no. It's just because all the research was based on boys and diagnosis was focused on a certain set of behaviors. And then only of late has that research changed to include another gender.
So that's where we're, that's why that's happening. But why it became so valuable to me is in my thesis, my anxiety had got out of control. So to a point that it wasn't just manifesting in its panic attacks, it actually was affecting me physically, physiologically. I was losing my hair. I had heart palpitations and it affected my cycles. I was seeing so many different specialists and doctors until someone, a GP, a general practitioner for those listening to primary care doctor for those in The US translating said to me, I think maybe we should try some antidepressants. I was just pressed. He goes, I think let's just, let's just see, trust me.
And I just went on over and he gave me what I've researched now is the lightest dose of sertraline on the planet. And after two weeks of taking it, my brain. So forget about all the other stuff that was wrong with me physically. My brain, I went, is this what normal people feel like? Like I just went, it just took these layers off the top of my brain. And now in my forties, I've done the research. Sertraline is a treatment for people with ADHD. It's one of the options. And so suddenly we weren't just treating all of those other things and it wasn't depression or anxiety.
That was a symptom of my ADHD had taken over control of my life. So that's why diagnosis just helped a lot.
Yeah, I get it. I, I found that what cured my head of spinning around out of control was was estrogen. Once I started functioning on estrogen, were my or were my brain confusions sort of settled down? And, I still have some of the other issues, but it's all manageable. But, yeah, estrogen was the, the cure for me.
Hormones are so important. And particularly if we soapbox for a little bit, X generation women entering into their perimenopause, later perimenopause years now and menopause, we were raised when the research was out there that says HRT or hormone replacement therapy was bad because it caused all these cancers. Well, in fact, that was a paper that got published that wasn't accurate. So putting it off is not the right thing to do. We need HRT, and that's not necessarily, it could be just hormones on estrogen and or progesterone, but we shouldn't avoid testosterone either. We need to make sure covering, we
have to have a trace of that as well. Yeah, for sure.
Anyway, well, that's not possible.
We could, we could start this podcast again and, and, and do our whole thing on ADHD and, and, and hormones and things. So, yeah, we've both got, probably a a lift lived experience PhD in those. Liz, it's been absolutely fascinating. We've been yacking on now for over an hour, and it's been fascinating to get to know you and hear your story. And I love your energy. And and as we predicted, we've got so many things that we resonate with and so many, shared thoughts. So it's been it's been fascinating for me, and I hope for listening, it's been fascinating for you as well. So just a quick rundown.
How we get hold of you?
Well, we've talked about LinkedIn a lot. LinkedIn is I have often said when I've been in workshops or keynotes, if you send me an email, you're fighting with a lot of emails, but if you message me on LinkedIn, I come from the Blackberry era. So if there's a red dot on my messages on LinkedIn, I go and find them and I answer. So if you wanna find me on LinkedIn, Doctor. Liz Wilson, I'm there. Let's have a chat. I'm always open to having the conversation.
And I'll put stuff in the show notes around your strategic inclusion practitioner and your strategic inclusion playbook programs.
Yeah, absolutely. I only just launched the strategic inclusion practitioner program last week, just so that everybody across the world who's working in inclusion has access to what I do. So it's just not me doing it. I wanna just give everybody the capability to do strategic inclusion transformations.
So you wanna put, Pennsylvania Avenue, bloke in charge, and chuck it in the first year?
And do say, I I would be a good running ticket in The US. I'm just not a citizen.
Yeah. That's true. And we know how the we know how the the current incumbent gets really upset if anyone's not a citizen.
Correct. Well, you know, we we could be on the line here too. We're in limbo right now with our visa. So we may be coming to The UK to a venue near you soon.
Wow. You know, there's a a lot of great places. Yeah. There's Cotswolds and other places around that beautiful. Scotland's nice.
I've already voted for Paul. Sorry.
Paul. South coast. I'm not far from there. So in Portsmouth, so about hour and a half from Paul on the South Coast. Yeah. It's a good place to live. Dorset's good. Jurassic coast.
Lots of dinosaur bones.
It was an absolute joy to have a conversation with you today. I and I actually hope that we can keep in contact. I, I think we could talk underwater for three days straight.
Yeah. And well, you said you got podcasts. Let's get me back on and I can talk about, some of my lived experience and, see if we can get trolled for a laugh.
Yeah. I think we could make it our goal. Thanks so much for your time today.
Liz, thank you.
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time.
Catch you on the next bite.
Also generated
More from this recording
Episode Category
Primary Category: Workplace Equity
Secondary Category: Cultural Transformation
🔖 Titles
Demystifying Workplace Equity: Behavioural Science and the Eight Inclusion Needs with Dr Liz Wilson
Beyond Recruitment: Building Lasting Inclusion Through Organisational Culture and Strategic Behaviours
From Activism to Action: The Science Behind Effective Workplace Equity and Systems Change
Why Inclusion Efforts Falter: Unpacking Organisational Barriers and Cultural Transformation
Shifting Organisational Culture: Practical Science-Driven Approaches to Workplace Equity
Inclusion for All: Exploring Intersectionality and the Eight Universal Needs in the Workplace
The Behavioural Blueprint for Meaningful Workplace Equity and Sustainable Inclusion
Moving Beyond DEI Buzzwords: Creating Real Change in Organisational Culture
Sustaining Workplace Equity: Systems, Structure, and the Power of Inclusive Behaviours
Changing the Narrative: How Science and Systems Drive Belonging and Retention in Workplaces
A Subtitle - A Single Sentence describing this episode
Dr. Liz Wilson unpacks the behavioural science underpinning workplace equity, exploring how systems, culture, and inclusion needs converge to create environments where everyone can thrive, challenge, and reshape the status quo.
Episode Tags
Workplace Equity, Behavioural Science, Organisational Culture, Inclusive Leadership, Intersectionality, Systems Change, Neurodiversity, Change Management, Employee Belonging, Strategic Inclusion.
Episode Summary with Intro, Key Points and a Takeaway
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood invites Dr. Liz Wilson to explore the science underpinning workplace equity. The discussion moves beyond surface-level diversity initiatives, investigating how behavioural science and systems thinking can drive sustainable inclusion. Liz and Joanne challenge the conventional notion that changing minds is at the heart of equity work, instead focusing on establishing organisational architectures and everyday practices that reinforce inclusive behaviour. The conversation is both practical and provocative, offering listeners a fresh perspective on why so many DEI initiatives falter and what truly makes change stick — all illustrated through lively anecdotes and relatable metaphors, from medieval castles to the humble Marmite.
Liz is a behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert whose career has spanned two decades of organisational culture transformation. With a PhD focused precisely on behavioural science and cultural change in the workplace, as well as a wealth of global consulting experience, Liz has dedicated her life to designing evidence-based frameworks that help organisations turn equity from aspiration into practice. Her unique superpower lies in transforming personal adversity into a global mission, drawing from a lived experience that includes navigating ADHD and chronic pain. Currently based in Denver, Colorado, Liz’s pragmatic yet empathetic approach resonates with teams and leaders worldwide, equipping them to foster environments where everyone can thrive.
The episode unpacks the pitfalls of tackling inclusion through a fragmented, label-by-label approach, advocating instead for a universal framework: the eight inclusion needs of all people. Liz explains why recruitment should never be the first step and how overlooked systems shape whether diverse talent stays and succeeds. Both Joanne and Liz tackle the recent backlash against DEI efforts, dissecting the psychology of resistance and the importance of reaching “centrist” ground for sustainable progress. Metaphors about buffets and castles bring humour and clarity to complex dilemmas, while candid discussion about lived experience, intersectionality, and resilience makes the science of equity feel both urgent and utterly human.
A key takeaway from this episode is that genuine workplace equity is neither accidental nor achievable through goodwill alone. It requires robust systems, everyday behavioural reinforcements, and a universal, intersectional lens. Listeners will leave with practical insight into making inclusion tangible—whatever their starting point—and the sense that, with the right tools, meaningful cultural transformation is truly within reach.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Values alignment is rare in organisations; true culture is shaped by team dynamics, often led by immediate managers, and can be fostered remotely.
05:39 Culture transformation focuses on changing behaviours and actions, not beliefs or values, to move an organisation.
12:38 Implementing pay equity involves quick data analysis, rectifying salaries, changing processes, and behavioural adjustments over a few months to ensure sustainability.
17:23 Focus on systemic change for inclusion, avoiding overwhelming with labels.
24:32 Engage people slightly left or right of centre to influence change gradually; direct approaches towards extreme views are ineffective.
28:32 Moved to the US for work three years ago to make a bigger impact, inspired by Kimberle Crenshaw’s intersectionality research; aims to create a thriving world.
32:43 Realising the potential to shape policy, global organisations must address inclusion without specific labels, especially where LGBTQI+ identities are illegal, to create comprehensive strategies.
39:07 Two small US organisations postponed inclusion work to stabilise operations, causing ripple effects in payments and services. This led to significant stress, prompting research into relocating to the UK with their dog via the Queen Mary.
46:43 Approach LinkedIn inclusively and personally without an activist stance, sharing personal truths with a larger audience.
53:11 Wrongly blamed and expelled at 13 due to reputation; led to giving up on academics.
55:21 ADHD diagnosis reveals hypersensitivity to criticism, offering self-understanding and easing self-perception. Knowledge aids relationships, as with a husband on the autism spectrum.
01:04:19 Join the Inclusion Bites community to support inclusion. Subscribe, share, and contribute to the cause at jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Joanne Lockwood aims to inspire and unite through future episodes.
01:05:14 See you later.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 "Team Culture Over Company Values"
05:39 Cultural Transformation: Behaviours Over Beliefs
12:38 Achieving Pay Equity in Organisations
17:23 Rethinking Inclusion in Organisations
24:32 Centre Strategy Over Extremism
28:32 "Moving to U.S. for Impact"
32:43 Inclusive Policy Challenges Worldwide
39:07 Inclusion Work Postponed Amid Uncertainty
46:43 Balanced LinkedIn Engagement Approach
53:11 Expulsion and Misunderstanding Story
55:21 Understanding ADHD and Sensitivity
01:04:19 "Join Inclusion Bites Community"
01:05:14 "Catch You on Next Bite"
Custom LinkedIn Post
🎙️ 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗪𝗲𝗲𝗸 𝗼𝗻 𝗜𝗻𝗰𝗹𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗕𝗶𝘁𝗲𝘀: 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗦𝗰𝗶𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝗪𝗼𝗿𝗸𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗘𝗾𝘂𝗶𝘁𝘆 🎙️
💡 Can workplace culture be changed by science, not slogans? Discover the evidence-based secrets behind true equity in just one minute! 💡
This week, I'm delighted to be joined by Dr. Liz Wilson, behavioural scientist, strategic inclusion expert, and cultural transformation powerhouse. Her mission? Turning personal adversity into a global movement for genuine workplace equity.
Together, we uncover:
🔑 𝗖𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗖𝗮𝗻 𝗕𝗲 𝗣𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗮𝗯𝗹𝗲 – How carrying your own four square metres of “culture” shifts the paradigm of inclusion, even in remote work.
🔑 𝗦𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺𝘀 𝗢𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝗦𝗹𝗼𝗴𝗮𝗻𝘀 – Why lasting change begins with robust systems and processes, not trying to “train” beliefs out of people.
🔑 𝗘𝗾𝘂𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗙𝗼𝗿 𝗔𝗹𝗹 – The eight core “inclusion needs” that underpin truly inclusive environments, regardless of label, background, or geography.
Why Listen?
“If you think equity is only for someone else, think again. Every single one of us has inclusion needs—and this episode is packed with practical steps to bring genuine transformation to your team and culture.”
As the host of Inclusion Bites, I bring you new episodes every week—challenging mindsets, busting myths, and sharing real-life hacks for building workplaces where everyone belongs.
What’s your take? 💭 Tell us which of the eight inclusion needs speaks to you, or share how your organisation makes inclusion more than a buzzword below 👇
🎧 Listen to the full episode: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#PositivePeopleExperiences #SmileEngageEducate #InclusionBites #Podcasts #Shorts
#WorkplaceEquity #CulturalTransformation #BehaviouralScience #InclusionNeeds #TeamCulture
with SEE Change Happen and Dr. Liz Wilson
TikTok/Reels/Shorts Video Summary
Focus Keyword: Culture Change
Title:
Unlocking Real Culture Change for Positive People Experiences | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags:
culture change, positive people experiences, workplace inclusion, inclusion podcast, organisational culture, behavioural science, belonging at work, workplace equity, inclusion strategy, cultural transformation, equity in the workplace, team culture, D&I, inclusion needs, leadership development, employee wellbeing, intersectionality, diverse teams, workplace transformation, inclusive leadership, retention strategy, diversity champion, modern workplace, inclusive culture, SEE Change Happen
Killer Quote:
"You carry your organisational culture with you… think of it like your four square metres around you. That's your organisational culture and you have the influence over those four square metres." – Dr. Liz Wilson
Hashtags:
#CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #InclusionBitesPodcast, #Inclusion, #Belonging, #Equity, #Diversity, #TransformWorkplace, #Leadership, #TeamCulture, #SEEChangeHappen, #WorkplaceWellbeing, #InclusionFramework, #BelongingAtWork, #InclusionNeeds, #CultureTransformation, #WorkplaceInclusion, #InclusionJourney, #BehaviouralScience, #InclusiveLeadership
Summary Description:
On this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, I sit down with Dr Liz Wilson to delve into the science behind real Culture Change and how it fuels Positive People Experiences. We break down why effective cultural transformation starts with individual influence and scalable behaviour change, not just headline commitments. If you're passionate about making workplaces truly inclusive—not just in policy, but in daily action—you'll discover practical tips on shaping organisational culture, building belonging, and embedding inclusion into everyday systems. Listen now to learn how you can champion equity that lasts, drive culture change from the ground up, and foster a people-centric workplace. Ready for action? Tune in and be part of the movement!
Outro:
Thank you, the listener, for tuning in! If you found value in today’s insights on Culture Change and Positive People Experiences, don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share this video. For more inspiration and resources, visit SEE Change Happen at https://seechangehappen.co.uk or listen to the full episode and more at The Inclusion Bites Podcast: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive – Joanne Lockwood
ℹ️ Introduction
Welcome back to Inclusion Bites, the podcast that dives deep into the heart of belonging and societal transformation. In this episode, “The Science of Workplace Equity,” host Joanne Lockwood welcomes Dr. Liz Wilson, a behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert whose personal journey has fuelled a global mission for workplace equity.
Together, Joanne and Liz tackle the pressing question: What truly makes a workplace equitable and inclusive? Drawing from decades of experience in organisational culture and change, Liz unpacks the distinction between organisational values and lived behaviours, challenging the notion that culture is a top-down prescription. Instead, she explores how authentic inclusion takes root at the team level, shaped by everyday actions rather than lofty intentions.
From Rutte Bregman’s ethos of inherent human goodness to the science behind systemic change, the conversation moves through practical frameworks and candid reflections—including why focusing only on recruitment without first addressing retention is a recipe for failure. Liz challenges the audience to reconsider traditional DEI efforts, advocating for the creation of systems that hardwire inclusive behaviour, rather than attempting to rewrite individuals’ beliefs.
Brimming with lived experience and research-backed insight, this episode delivers both challenge and inspiration—inviting you to rethink what meaningful equity looks like and how each of us can contribute to cultures where everyone not only fits in, but truly thrives.
If you’re ready for a refreshingly bold take on workplace inclusion—infused with humour, authenticity, and actionable ideas—you’re in the right place. Settle in as we bring you another bite-sized conversation that disrupts, enlightens, and ignites lasting change.
💬 Keywords
workplace equity, inclusion, belonging, organisational culture, behavioural science, diversity, equity, inclusion needs, intersectionality, culture change, values alignment, remote teams, privilege, neurodiversity, ADHD, retention, talent acquisition, organisational systems, inclusive leadership, human rights, anti-DEI pushback, culture transformation, pay equity, gender pay gap, systems and processes, bias, lived experience, change management, team culture, authenticity, advocacy, activating allyship
About this Episode
About The Episode:
In this dynamic conversation, Dr. Liz Wilson brings behavioural science to the fore, exploring the building blocks of true workplace equity. Drawing from her personal mission and expertise, she unpacks why organisational attempts at inclusion often falter, and shares proven, research-driven frameworks for sustainable culture change. Listen in for strategic, actionable guidance on turning good intentions into measurable impact—while navigating the complexities of identity, activism, and global workplace realities.
Today, we’ll cover:
The pivotal role of systems and organisational architecture in creating and sustaining inclusive behaviours.
Why culture is determined by local teams and managers, not simply by organisational statements or office presence.
The dangers of focusing only on recruitment without first ensuring retention and psychological safety for all.
How intersectionality and the “eight inclusion needs” framework reveal universal requirements for genuine belonging.
The need for centrist, pragmatic approaches to influence and drive inclusion, rather than polarising activism.
How to counteract pushback and politicisation of DEI by showing “what’s in it for me” and fostering shared understanding.
Practical ways to weave inclusion into every process, developing behavioural norms that shape culture organisation-wide.
💡 Speaker bios
Joanne Lockwood is the passionate host of Inclusion Bites, a podcast dedicated to sparking bold conversations around inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Guiding listeners through meaningful explorations, Joanne invites others to challenge the status quo and share stories that inspire connection and change. Through her work, she aims to create a world where everyone can truly belong and thrive. Joanne encourages listeners to engage with the show—whether over a morning coffee or at the end of a busy day—believing that collective reflection can lead to real action. She welcomes new voices and insights, inviting all to join her on this ongoing journey towards greater inclusion.
💡 Speaker bios
Certainly! Here’s a short British English bio for Dr. Liz Wilson in a summarised, story-driven style:
Dr Liz Wilson has spent over twenty years dedicated to culture change within organisations, long before specialising in inclusion. Throughout her career, she has encouraged people to view organisational culture as something they personally carry and influence—likening it to the four square metres surrounding each individual. Dr Wilson believes that as we each embody our organisation’s culture, we have the power to shape and share it with others, creating a lasting impact wherever we go. Today, she applies this philosophy to her work in inclusion, inspiring others to actively cultivate inclusive environments within their own spheres of influence.
❇️ Key topics and bullets
Certainly! Here’s a comprehensive sequence of topics covered in the transcript of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, episode titled "The Science of Workplace Equity," hosted by Joanne Lockwood with guest Dr. Liz Wilson. Included are primary topics and their sub-topics for a clear overview of the conversation’s journey.
1. Introduction and Setting the Scene
Podcast’s mission: challenging the status quo on inclusion and belonging
Invitation for listener engagement and participation
Introduction of Dr. Liz Wilson: behavioural scientist, strategic inclusion expert
2. Personal Adversity as a Catalyst for Inclusion
Dr. Wilson’s ‘superpower’: transforming adversity into a global equity mission
The power of individual action for broader organisational change
3. Culture and Inclusion in the Workplace
The portability of organisational culture ("four square metres" concept)
Tension between personal and organisational culture post-COVID
The myth of values alignment and the reality of team-level cultural influence
Impact of managers and supervisors on local workplace culture
4. Organisational Behavioural Change
The science behind cultural transformation in organisations
Differentiating between beliefs/values and behaviours/actions
Why changing behaviours is more effective than forcing values alignment
The importance of allowing individuals to be embraced for their own identities
5. Systemic Approaches to Inclusion
Utilising behavioural economics to influence workplace behaviours
Example: The Monopoly board analogy for organisational progress
The role of systems, processes, and ‘architectures’ in enabling inclusion
Moving inclusion from talent acquisition to embedded organisational systems
The risk of hiring for diversity without preparing a genuinely inclusive environment
Starting with retention and inclusive culture before recruitment
6. Societal and Organisational Pushback against DEI
Current backlash against DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) efforts
Misconceptions: equating DEI solely with affirmative action and recruitment
The need for DEI initiatives to benefit everyone by addressing universal inclusion needs
7. Behavioural Science of Organisational Change
Resistance to change when framed as accusation or blame
Importance of ‘What’s In It For Me’ (WIIFM) for driving engagement
Flaws in single-label (e.g., ‘women-only’) programmes
Overlapping identities (intersectionality) and the whole-person approach
The eight inclusion needs framework as an inclusive solution
8. Conceptual Metaphors and Change Management
Joanne’s “castle and peasants” analogy for privilege and activism
The challenge of bridging divides and lowering barriers to meaningful conversations
Strategic focus on influencing centrists rather than polar extremes
9. Practical Mechanisms for Inclusion
The role of systems design: making inclusive actions automatic
Behavioural economics example: reshuffling a buffet’s food order
Open access to Dr. Wilson’s ‘eight inclusion needs’ framework
10. Inclusion across Cultures and Borders
Dr. Wilson’s global perspective: living and working in Australia, New Zealand, USA, and Asia
Unique inclusion challenges among indigenous populations and legality of identity
New Zealand as a positive example of indigenous inclusion
Adapting inclusion frameworks for different socio-legal environments
11. Political Context and the Impact on DEI Work
Real-world consequences: Projects cancelled following political change in the USA
Emotional and professional toll on practitioners
Dr. Wilson’s approach to public engagement and handling online trolls
12. Navigating Social Media and Public Discourse
Experiences with hate and online trolling, particularly regarding trans and intersectional content
The paradox of algorithmic amplification: hate engagement boosts inclusive content
13. Experiential Narratives: Identity and Neurodiversity
Dr. Wilson’s personal journey: ADHD diagnosis and impact on academic and professional life
The influence of school experiences on self-concept and resilience
Interaction between neurodiversity and organisational/inclusion work
14. Hormones, Mental Health, and Lived Experience
Candid discussion on hormone replacement therapy and its impact
Parallels between gender transition, menopause, and brain chemistry
The importance of self-understanding in navigating life and professional challenges
15. Closing Reflections
Mutual respect and synergy between host and guest
Contact details and ways to connect for further learning or collaboration
Final encouragement for a nuanced, actionable, and whole-person approach to inclusion
This sequence captures both the breadth and the depth of the discussion, reflecting topical flow and sub-themes with clarity.
The Hook
What if everything you’ve been told about changing workplace culture... is wrong? Imagine building equity not with slogans or guilt, but by transforming what people actually do. Ready to unlock the real science behind inclusion—without forcing anyone to “fit”?
Ever feel as if workplace inclusion is just empty words and tick-box training? You’re not alone. There’s a reason equity efforts stall (and it’s not what you think). Curious how you could spark real, lasting change—from the inside out?
Picture this: behaviours become culture. Not beliefs. Not posters on the wall. What if you could embed true equity—practically—across your business, without losing yourself (or your team) in the process? Intrigued yet?
Why settle for surface-level “diversity drives innovation” mantras, when you could actually re-wire how people experience belonging—at every level? If you’re craving something deeper (and more effective), this is for you.
Are you dragging people into “culture fit” or empowering them to bring their best selves—every day? There’s a smarter way to build equity…and it starts where most people never look: your systems, not your slogans. Want in?
🎬 Reel script
Ready to ignite change in your workplace? On this episode of Inclusion Bites, I dove deep with Dr. Liz Wilson, behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert, exploring the science behind workplace equity. We unpacked why real culture change starts with systems, not slogans; how inclusion is about shifting behaviours—not forcing beliefs; and why authentic organisational values depend on actions, not just words. If you want your people to belong and thrive, make inclusion everyone’s business. Let’s spark progress—tune in to Inclusion Bites and be part of the change.
🗞️ Newsletter
Subject: The Science of Workplace Equity – Insights from Inclusion Bites
Hello Inclusion Bites Community,
Welcome back to your go-to space for thought-provoking conversations on inclusion, belonging, and transformational change! This week’s episode, “The Science of Workplace Equity,” brings you a vibrant and eye-opening discussion between our host, Joanne Lockwood (she/her), and behavioural scientist Dr. Liz Wilson.
Unpacking Workplace Culture: What Really Drives Equity?
Too often, workplace “culture” is treated as something static or defined solely by organisational values posters on the wall. But as Dr. Wilson eloquently shares, culture is created by everyday actions—the behaviours and systems that shape our environment. Real change starts not at the top, but in those crucial four square metres around each of us. As she puts it, “You carry your organisational culture with you” wherever you go.
Systemic Change: More Than Just Hiring Differently
Are organisations getting equity wrong by focusing solely on recruitment? Dr. Wilson doesn’t hold back: meaningful inclusion isn’t just about hiring more diverse talent. If the environment isn’t genuinely inclusive, new starters are more likely to have a “smelly” experience and walk straight out the back door. That’s why Dr. Wilson advocates starting with retention in mind—transform the systems and processes so everyone can thrive from the moment they arrive.
The Science Bit: Actions Shape Culture
Behavioural science shows that you can’t simply train people out of long-held beliefs—nor should you. Instead, change thrives on creating systems that “require” inclusive actions. Like arranging the salad first at a buffet, organisations can design processes so the inclusive choice is the easy one. Over time, repeated actions turn into inclusive habits, and those habits become your culture.
Practical Wisdom: What Can You Do?
Focus on Behaviours: Culture is what you do, not just what you say.
Build Inclusion Into Systems: Start by improving processes before turning to recruitment.
Find the ‘What’s In It For Me': Help everyone see their own inclusion needs for truly engaged transformation.
Thinly Spread Change: Avoid overwhelming; instead, integrate inclusion as you would spread Marmite—just enough to be palatable yet effective!
Tools & Frameworks
Dr. Wilson generously offers her open-access “Eight Inclusion Needs of All People” framework, rigorously tested across the globe (including environments where being oneself isn’t always legally protected). Find the framework and more via the links in our show notes.
Close to Home, Broad in Impact
Joanne and Dr. Wilson also dig into personal stories—ranging from overcoming adversity to navigating neurodiversity and the power of believing in yourself when others do not. These lived experiences, paired with expert insight, make this episode an essential listen for anyone committed to shaping a genuinely inclusive workplace.
Listen & Share
🔊 Tune in to Episode 159 – The Science of Workplace Equity
📬 Want to be part of the conversation? Reach out to Joanne directly at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk – your voice matters.
Stay bold, stay kind, and keep igniting the spark of inclusion!
Warm regards,
The Inclusion Bites Team
#InclusionBites #PositivePeopleExperiences #WorkplaceEquity #InclusiveLeadership
🧵 Tweet thread
🚨 THREAD: The REAL Science of Workplace Equity — Inclusion Isn’t What You Think! 🚨
1/ 💥 Start with disruption:
Why do so many equity programmes stall or fail? Dr. Liz Wilson & @JoLockwoodUK on Inclusion Bites get REAL about why many D&I efforts lack lasting impact—and what must change.
2/ 🤯 PAS: Problem
Organisations say they value inclusion, but what happens in reality? Too often, cultures are defined by surface-level initiatives. Dr. Liz: “If all you do is focus on bringing diverse people in, you’re just giving them another opportunity to have a terrible experience.”
3/ ⚠️ Agitate
Sound familiar? “Sort out your culture, clean the tank, make sure the place is fit for purpose,” @JoLockwoodUK warns. Diverse hiring without real change = people walking straight out the door. ALL that investment, GONE.
4/ 🔬 The SCIENCE
You can’t just train people out of their beliefs. “We have to create systems and architectures,” says Dr. Liz. Genuine change is about shifting BEHAVIOURS, not enforcing values. Make inclusive actions part of the process — not an afterthought.
5/ 🔄 Behavioural Economics in Action
Simple changes to systems—like putting healthy food at the start of a buffet—lead to different outcomes. So, too, inclusive steps required in corporate processes fundamentally shift workplace culture, one behaviour at a time.
6/ 🎯 DEI isn’t One-Size-Fits-All
Forget slapping labels or rolling out endless “programmes”. Dr. Liz’s research emphasises INTERSECTIONALITY: “We’re all more than one label.” Solutions must work for ALL—not just tick boxes.
7/ 🧩 What Actually Works?
Dr. Liz’s “Eight Inclusion Needs” are OPEN ACCESS and globally tested, even in countries where inclusion is taboo. Inclusion isn’t about guilt or top-down activism—it’s about ENVIRONMENTS where everyone thrives.
8/ 🚦 Stop Treating Inclusion as a Zero-Sum Game
Inclusion isn’t taking the castle from the privileged. It’s lowering the drawbridge, having honest conversations, and building something better—for everyone.
9/ 🛠️ Solution
Start with retention, not recruitment. Embed inclusive steps into every business system. Make it easier to “do the right thing” than to ignore equity. “You can’t train beliefs out of people, but you can require inclusive actions,” says Dr. Liz.
10/ 📢 Final thought
If DEI feels stuck, shift the approach: Less finger-wagging, more actionable, system-wide steps. Inclusion needs to be like Marmite—distinct, present, and integrated into every bite. Spread it thin but everywhere!
🎧 Curious? Listen to the full #InclusionBites podcast:
🔗 https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#Inclusion #DEI #WorkplaceEquity #CultureChange #Belonging #BehaviouralScience
Guest's content for their marketing
Reflecting on My Time as a Guest on The Inclusion Bites Podcast
I recently had the pleasure of joining Joanne Lockwood on the “Inclusion Bites Podcast” for episode 159, titled The Science of Workplace Equity. This appearance offered me the opportunity to delve deep into behavioural science, explore the nuances of workplace culture, and challenge prevailing perceptions about diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI).
As a behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert, I have spent many years working with organisations to create environments where everyone can thrive. Joanne invited me on as a guest to shed light on how scientific frameworks and evidence-based organisational change can drive meaningful and lasting equity at work.
Key Conversation Highlights:
Four Square Metres of Influence:
We discussed the idea that each individual has the power to influence their immediate environment—their own ‘four square metres’. Rather than waiting for the top-down rollout of culture, it’s about understanding that we collectively shape the day-to-day culture through our behaviours and micro-actions.Systemic Change vs. Fitting In:
A central theme was the distinction between systems that require conformance and those that enable true inclusion. Rather than pressuring people to ‘fit in’ and conform, effective organisations build coherent systems and architectures that encourage inclusive behaviours—without forcing anyone to surrender their values or lived identity.The Science Behind Lasting Inclusion:
Drawing from both my research and practical experience, I challenged the notion that simply recruiting for diversity is enough. Real equity requires hardwiring inclusive practices into organisational processes—making inclusion an integral part of everyday operations, not an afterthought. As I shared, getting the “ducks in a row” and fixing the organisational environment must always precede efforts to attract diverse talent.Intersectionality and the Eight Inclusion Needs:
Joanne and I unpacked the complexity of diversity, moving away from labels towards recognising the whole person and their intersectional identities. I revealed my eight inclusion needs framework, grounded in global research and practice, which goes beyond tick-box labels and directly addresses what it means to belong, be valued, and contribute at work—no matter your background.Challenging the DEI Backlash:
We also examined the current climate of opposition to DEI, emphasising that lasting change comes not through activist confrontation but through systems thinking, empathy, and making the benefits relevant to all. By demonstrating the universal value of inclusive practices, we invite even the sceptics into the conversation.
Personal Reflections:
Joanne’s style is deeply collaborative, open, and honest—qualities that energised our conversation and made space for authentic storytelling. Together, we navigated topics from change management to lived experience, even sharing our personal journeys of facing—and transforming—adversity.
I would highly recommend this episode to anyone interested in taking a scientific, practical, and human-centred approach to workplace culture change. The Inclusion Bites Podcast consistently provides a platform for the real talk our sector needs—eschewing jargon and empty platitudes in favour of substantive, actionable dialogue.
Listen to the episode:
You can catch my conversation with Joanne on SEE Change Happen’s Inclusion Bites Podcast: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
If you’d like to dive further into the Eight Inclusion Needs framework or explore how your organisation can move beyond performative DEI, connect with me on LinkedIn at [Dr. Liz Wilson].
Let’s continue to foster environments where everyone can truly thrive—for the benefit of individuals, teams, and society at large.
Pain Points and Challenges
Certainly! Here’s a curated analysis of the key pain points and challenges raised in this episode of Inclusion Bites, followed by actionable solutions tailored to those challenges:
Pain Points and Challenges Highlighted
Misalignment of Organisational and Individual Values
Employees bring their own cultural values to work, but organisations often possess a monolithic idea of ‘culture’ that doesn’t always accommodate individuality or the reality of remote/hybrid work.
Toxic Microcultures at Team Level
Despite top-down organisational values, the behaviour and attitudes of immediate supervisors/managers often dictate the real ‘culture’ experienced by staff, leading to uneven experiences of inclusion or exclusion.
The Futility of “Fitting In” Versus True Belonging
Pressure on individuals to conform can undermine inclusion, as fitting in is fundamentally different to being embraced for one’s authentic self.
Belief-Driven Resistance to Change
Efforts to ‘convert’ belief systems directly are not only ineffective but can provoke resistance and disengagement, particularly if positioned in an activist or accusatory manner.
Systemic Lack of Infrastructure to Support Inclusion
Organisations often focus on ‘diversity’ at the point of recruitment without ensuring systems/processes are inclusive to begin with, resulting in poor retention and ongoing negative experiences for diverse hires.
Fragmented, Label-Based Approaches to Inclusion
Initiatives tend to silo people into categories (e.g. “Women’s Networks”, “LGBTQ+ Programmes”), which is reductive and ignores the reality of intersectionality and whole-person experiences.
Political and Cultural Backlash Against DEI Efforts
The ‘anti-woke’ or anti-DEI backlash is fuelled by misconceptions that inclusion is zero-sum, identity-based, or solely about affirmative action, rather than systemic improvement for all.
Lack of Personal Relevance (‘What’s In It For Me?’)
Many employees or managers fail to see how inclusion initiatives benefit them personally, making engagement superficial at best.
Emotional Fatigue and Professional Risk Faced by Inclusion Leaders
Accelerated pushback, loss of funding, and personal/professional tolls for those championing inclusion, especially during major political shifts.
Addressing the Challenges: Actionable Content
Embed Inclusion into Systems, Not Just Slogans
Solution:Shift from one-off training to embedding inclusion systematically: recruitment, talent management, performance reviews, and decision-making must all require an inclusive action or check.
Practical Example: As suggested by Dr. Liz Wilson, inclusion should be a required ‘step’ in processes, just as mandatory as compliance or health and safety, making it an everyday investment, not an afterthought.
Focus First on Retention and Environment, Not Just Recruitment
Solution:Prioritise cleaning up the ‘cultural tank’ before inviting more people in.
Assess current lived experiences—use pulse surveys, exit interviews, and focus groups—to uncover microaggressions, cultural toxicity, or policy gaps before scaling up hiring drives.
Cultivate Micro-level Culture Champions
Solution:Empower team leaders and managers with tools and training to model inclusive behaviours, recognising that they shape daily culture more than headquarters do.
Recognise and reward managers who demonstrate inclusive leadership, using incentives aligned with core organisational values.
Avoid Boxing Employees Into Labels
Solution:Abandon one-dimensional networks in favour of whole-person approaches, such as Dr. Wilson’s “eight inclusion needs” framework—accessible to all, applicable across intersections.
Review inclusion activities through the lens of intersectionality: does every programme allow space for more than one aspect of a person’s identity?
Shift the Narrative—From Activism to Shared Benefit
Solution:Translate inclusion into universal organisational benefits (enhanced creativity, psychological safety, talent retention, better customer service), not just the “right thing to do” for minorities.
In communications, employ the “What’s In It For Me?” (WIIFM) principle at every touchpoint and showcase case studies where inclusion led to measurable personal or team gains.
Build Resilience and Support for Inclusion Practitioners
Solution:Create safe, peer-support networks for those on the front lines of inclusion work.
Offer access to external mental health resources and formalise risk/misconduct reporting channels—especially for those facing hostility or trolling.
Educate to Dismantle Zero-sum Thinking
Solution:Host facilitated debates and story-sharing moments illustrating how removing barriers uplifts everyone, not just specific groups.
Use evidence and behavioural economics, as Dr. Wilson notes, to show the advantages of system-level inclusion: inclusive buffets get better results than restrictive menus.
Create “Drawbridges” Not Walls—Emphasise Dialogue
Solution:Disarm defensiveness by inviting those in positions of privilege into the conversation, ensuring messaging doesn’t centre on guilt but on collective opportunity.
Summary
True workplace equity emerges not from rhetoric or surface-level interventions, but from courageous, evidence-based system redesign, honest assessment, and a relentless focus on belonging-for-all. By addressing these pain points directly, organisations can avoid common pitfalls and move toward genuine, sustainable inclusion that benefits every member of the workforce.
For further tools and frameworks, explore Dr. Liz Wilson’s “eight inclusion needs”—shared in the episode and freely available via open access. And to connect, suggest, or contribute further, Joanne Lockwood warmly invites you to join the ongoing conversation at Inclusion Bites: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.
Feeling inspired to act? Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and take an active role in shaping inclusive workplace futures.
Questions Asked that were insightful
Absolutely—there are several instances in this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast that generated particularly nuanced, thought-provoking responses from Dr. Liz Wilson. These exchanges are ideal for framing a series of FAQs, offering listeners both clarity and deeper exploration of workplace equity and inclusion science. Here’s a selection of compelling questions and the key themes or insights that could anchor your FAQ series:
1. How do individual values and organisational culture interact in shaping inclusion?
Insight:
Dr. Liz Wilson and Joanne Lockwood explored the notion that organisational culture isn't monolithic; rather, it’s the sum of microcultures around individuals and teams. Liz discussed how people “carry organisational culture with them”—suggesting every employee contributes to the overall dynamic, and that values alignment at individual and team level is often more influential than corporate values statements.
2. Can you actually change people’s beliefs and values to foster inclusion, or is it more effective to focus elsewhere?
Insight:
Dr. Liz was adamant: you shouldn’t attempt to change people’s beliefs or values directly—in fact, it’s counterproductive and risks undermining diversity. Instead, the science points to altering systems, architectures, and required behaviours: change the ways of working, demonstrate inclusive behaviours, and culture will follow. This “behaviour-first” approach forms the backbone of sustainable change.
3. Why does simply recruiting for diversity often fail to deliver on inclusion outcomes?
Insight:
A particularly impactful answer from Liz highlighted that focusing first on recruitment—bringing in diverse talent—without first building genuinely inclusive systems only results in new hires experiencing the same exclusionary culture. She advocates for “retention first”: design processes, systems, and microcultures to be inclusive before ramping up diverse hiring, or risk high attrition and deep disillusionment.
4. Why do many organisations’ inclusion and equity efforts stall or encounter backlash?
Insight:
Dr. Liz unpacked this by drawing from behavioural science and change management. She highlighted that change efforts framed as finger-pointing or “activist” can alienate those with privilege or majority status. Instead, meaningful change requires a “What’s In It For Me?” approach, helping everyone see themselves in the solution. This is especially true when combatting the perception that inclusion efforts only benefit select groups.
5. How can intersectionality and “whole person” inclusion be embedded in policy and practice?
Insight:
Liz offered a robust critique of programme-based approaches (women’s networks, LGBTQ+ sessions, etc.) for failing to recognise intersectional identities. Her research led to the “Eight Inclusion Needs of All People”—universal themes that transcend labels and resonate cross-culturally. FAQs here could highlight what these needs are and how to apply them.
6. How should systems and structures be redesigned to make inclusion the default, rather than an exception?
Insight:
Using examples from behavioural economics, such as the order of food in a buffet altering eating behaviours, Dr. Liz illustrated how subtle systems “nudges” can make inclusive behaviours a norm. FAQs might offer practical, step-by-step ideas for embedding inclusion into everyday processes and decision-making.
7. What’s the impact of societal and political context on inclusion, and how can practitioners build resilience?
Insight:
Responding to recent setbacks in US federal and organisational support for DEI, Liz described the ripple effects—loss of work, uncertainty, and personal impact—while reinforcing the importance of activism, strategic engagement, and global knowledge-sharing, in spite of political tides. She also addressed handling backlash and trolling online, offering real-world tactics.
Each of these could be used as the basis for a standalone FAQ, with sub-questions, practical examples, and pointers to further resources—including Dr. Liz Wilson’s open-access frameworks and explainer videos, as referenced in the episode.
For a ready-to-use FAQ resource tailored to your audience, you could rephrase these insights into direct questions and concise, actionable answers. If you want the full series written as a ready-made FAQ, just let me know!
Blog article based on the episode
Is Your Workplace’s DEI Journey Stuck? The Science of Workplace Equity May Hold the Key
What if everything we think we know about changing workplace culture is backward? Picture this: you’ve invested in DEI training, revamped your hiring practices, and formed committees—yet people still leave, inclusion feels cosmetic, and “culture” remains stubbornly out of reach. If this scene feels familiar, you’re not alone—and according to Dr Liz Wilson, behavioural scientist and featured guest on Inclusion Bites Podcast (“The Science of Workplace Equity”), it may be time to rethink your entire approach.
Welcome to a revelatory episode that shakes the foundations of “business as usual” diversity initiatives. Hosted by the inimitable Joanne Lockwood, The Science of Workplace Equity goes well beyond slogans. Dr Wilson offers hard-earned wisdom, global perspective, and practical frameworks that turn the rhetoric of inclusion into tangible, science-backed progress.
The Hard Truth: Good Intentions Aren’t Enough
Many organisations start their DEI journey believing themselves to be inherently “good.” After all, most people and leaders don’t wake up intending to foster exclusive or toxic environments. Yet, as both Dr Wilson and Joanne Lockwood highlight, a disconnect exists between intention and impact.
Here’s the problem: values may be espoused on walls and websites, but in reality, “culture” is carried and enacted at the local, human scale—managers, teams, day-to-day behaviours. “You take your culture with you,” Dr Wilson notes. “Think of it as your four square metres. That’s your influence.” In other words, corporate manifestos are powerless if the lived experience on the ground doesn’t reflect them.
Moreover, many organisations fall into the trap of focusing on recruitment first—seeking to diversify the workforce—without ensuring the in-house experience supports genuine inclusion. “If all you do is focus on getting more diverse people into the room, you’re just giving them another opportunity to have a bad experience,” warns Dr Wilson. “We have to get our ducks in a row first.”
Why Is Progress So Fleeting?
Let’s diagnose the core issues:
Systemic Stagnation: Organisations hope that DEI workshops will magically shift beliefs and attitudes. But you cannot “train out” deep-seated cultural challenges or ask people to overhaul their intrinsic values overnight. Attempting to do so often results in pushback and disengagement.
“One-Size-Fits-One” Initiatives: Tackling inclusion through siloed, label-based approaches (e.g., women’s programmes, disability networks) can leave people feeling they must “fit in” rather than be embraced for who they are in all their complexity—a concept Joanne refers to as “being embraced for who you are, not forced to fit in.”
No Universal WIFM (What’s In It For Me): Change efforts frequently fail to articulate how all employees benefit. When inclusion feels like it’s “for someone else,” a natural sense of resistance emerges. To shift the narrative, people need to clearly see themselves within the solution and feel an authentic stake.
The “Retention Gap”: Neglecting to build an inclusive culture before ramping up recruitment means new hires quickly sense the incongruence, resulting in churn, poor engagement, and wasted investment.
Rewiring Workplace Equity: Science Not Slogans
So—how do we disrupt the inertia? Dr Wilson’s answer is clear: Start with systems, not sentiment.
Create Systems and Architectures that Require Inclusive Behaviours
Drawing on behavioural science, Dr Wilson advocates for embedding inclusive actions directly within organisational processes. “You can’t start with developing people’s behaviours—you have to create systems and infrastructures,” she explains. Consider how a seemingly simple adjustment—like the order in which food is presented at a buffet—influences choices. “We need to make inclusive action the easiest option, not the afterthought or add-on.”
Actionable Steps:
Hardwire Inclusion Into Workflows: From project cycles to performance reviews, introduce “stop-gate” checks or requirements that make inclusive behaviour a must for progress.
Review Systems End-to-End: Focus on retention and internal experience before recruitment. Assess whether onboarding, promotions, feedback mechanisms, and support structures actually foster belonging.
Measure Actions, Not Attitudes: Instead of demanding an attitudinal revolution, focus on observable behaviour and its consistency with the organisation’s stated principles.
Move Beyond Labels: The Eight Inclusion Needs
Real, sustainable inclusion means acknowledging the multiplicity of identities each person brings—what Dr Wilson calls the “whole-person perspective.” Her framework of the Eight Inclusion Needs (which she has made open access and freely available) encourages organisations to adopt a universal language for inclusion, encompassing everyone across labels, roles, and lived experiences.
Practical Applications:
Audit Policies and Spaces: Use the Eight Inclusion Needs as a lens to review everything—from physical environment to team rituals—ensuring everyone’s multifaceted identity is considered.
Equip Managers: Since culture is carried at the level of the immediate supervisor, train managers to actively demonstrate and champion these inclusion needs.
Customise, Don’t Commoditise: Recognise that intersectionality means people’s needs and barriers intersect and collide in unique ways—one-size solutions rarely fit all.
Navigating the Pushback: A New Narrative
As DEI becomes increasingly politicised, there’s a tendency for backlash—accusations of “wokeness” or “affirmative action” run rife. The science, however, shows that universal design for inclusion benefits all. Dr Wilson’s strategy? Sidestep the zero-sum mentality and make inclusion “what’s in it for everyone, including you.”
“The more times you do the action, it turns into a behaviour… The accumulation of those behaviours then become your culture,” she explains. “That’s the science of workplace equity—putting that button on the keyboard, the process step that requires you to hit ‘enter’ for inclusion.”
From Problem to Action: What Organisations Must Do Differently
Start with Culture, End with Recruitment: Retain first. Build your internal inclusivity muscles before you bring more people in.
Redefine the Language: Move from “diversity is for others” to “inclusion meets all our needs.”
Engineer for Behavioural Change: Actions, not attitudes, make the difference. Design your systems to make inclusion the default.
Empower At Every Level: Equip managers and teams—not just HR or leadership—to own culture within their sphere of influence.
A Call to Action: Reset, Rebuild, and Inspire
It’s time to reframe our thinking. The business case for DEI is clear, but outcomes remain elusive until inclusion is treated as a system, not a sentiment. As Dr Liz Wilson’s insights remind us, “We all have inclusion needs. For me to have them, you must have them too.” The future of workplace equity lies in universal frameworks, not exclusive silos; in systemic design, not just interpersonal goodwill.
Feeling inspired by this episode? Dive deeper into Dr Wilson’s frameworks and resources—all freely accessible—and challenge your team to audit your existing culture, processes, and approaches.
Tune into Inclusion Bites: The Science of Workplace Equity to hear the full conversation and join a growing community ready to turn inclusion from aspiration into everyday reality.
Take the first step: Audit your systems, rethink your starting point, and commit to building cultures where everyone can genuinely thrive. The science is here—are you ready to act?
Listen to this episode and many more at: Inclusion Bites Podcast. For comments, ideas, or to join the conversation, contact Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #BehaviouralScience #DiversityAndInclusion #TheScienceOfWorkplaceEquity
The standout line from this episode
The standout line from this episode is:
"We have to get our ducks in a row first and then create an inclusive environment—systems, processes, architectures—so that when we do then get to talent acquisition and they come in, then they can bloody stay and thrive."
❓ Questions
Certainly! Here are 10 engaging discussion questions based on the episode “The Science of Workplace Equity” from The Inclusion Bites Podcast, hosted by Joanne Lockwood with guest Dr Liz Wilson:
Dr Wilson emphasises that true workplace culture is defined by behaviours and actions, not just stated values. In your experience, how do these differences manifest, and what impact do they have on inclusion efforts within organisations?
The conversation touched on the importance of bringing your own culture to work, rather than being expected to assimilate completely. How can organisations better recognise and accommodate individual cultural identities while maintaining cohesion?
Dr Wilson argues that it is neither possible nor desirable to change people’s core beliefs or values in the pursuit of workplace equity. Do you agree? How should leaders aim to align diverse teams around inclusivity without forcing conformity?
The concept of building equity and inclusion by starting with retention—'cleaning the tank' before diversifying hiring—was discussed. Why do so many organisations focus on recruitment first, and what practical steps can reverse this thinking?
Behavioural science suggests that ‘architecture’—the systems and structures in place—greatly influences whether inclusive behaviours become the norm. Can you share an example where a change in process led to improved inclusion?
Intersectionality emerged as a critical theme. How can organisations ensure their inclusion strategies do not simply address one label or characteristic at a time, but genuinely reflect the full complexity of employees’ identities?
The episode explored resistance to DEI initiatives, particularly when seen as only benefiting certain groups. How can practitioners effectively frame and communicate the 'what's in it for me' (WIFM) for all employees, including those who view themselves as unaffected?
Drawing from Dr Wilson’s analogy of influencing your 'four square metres' and the Marmite metaphor, what are some practical tips for making inclusion more palatable and less overwhelming for sceptical colleagues or leaders?
Referring to Dr Wilson's experiences of significant organisational and political pushback against inclusion efforts, especially in the US and Australia, how would you maintain momentum and personal resilience in such environments?
The episode touched on the limitations of traditional change programmes and the importance of addressing systems, not just individuals. In what ways can organisations audit their own systems to uncover hidden barriers to equity and inclusion?
These questions invite thoughtful exploration of both the practical and philosophical aspects of workplace equity, grounded in the themes discussed by Joanne Lockwood and Dr Liz Wilson.
FAQs from the Episode
FAQ: The Science of Workplace Equity – Inclusion Bites Podcast, Episode 159
1. What is meant by ‘workplace equity’ and how does it differ from diversity and inclusion?
Workplace equity refers to creating systems and structures that ensure fair treatment, access, opportunities, and advancement for all. Unlike diversity, which addresses representation, and inclusion, which tackles belonging, equity is about removing barriers and restructuring environments so everyone can thrive. Dr. Liz Wilson emphasises that workplace equity is not about forcing everyone to adopt the same beliefs, but about shaping behaviours and actions through systemic change.
2. Why does Dr. Liz Wilson argue that changing beliefs isn’t the starting point for equity and inclusion?
Dr. Wilson explains that you cannot and should not attempt to change people's core beliefs or values as part of inclusion work. Instead, cultural transformation starts by creating systems, processes, and architectures that embed inclusive behaviours into everyday actions. Over time, these actions become habits and contribute to the development of an inclusive organisational culture.
3. What role does organisational culture play in workplace inclusion, according to the discussion?
Both speakers highlight that culture is shaped by daily actions and is most tangibly experienced at the team level, frequently influenced by individual managers. Effective workplace inclusion is about enabling each person to bring their ‘four square metres’—their individual culture and values—with them, rather than forcing employees to fully assimilate to a prescribed organisational norm.
4. Why is it problematic to focus purely on recruitment or ‘diverse hiring’ as a DEI strategy?
Dr. Wilson stresses that organisations must establish inclusive environments before expanding diverse hiring. Simply recruiting more diverse employees without first fixing culture and systems results in new starters experiencing the same barriers as their predecessors—leading to dissatisfaction and high turnover. She insists on the principle of ‘start with retention in mind’ and only move to recruitment once the environment is ready to support everyone.
5. What are the ‘eight inclusion needs of all people’ mentioned in the episode?
Dr. Wilson has developed a globally researched framework—'the eight inclusion needs of all people'—which provides a universal, intersectional approach to inclusion. These needs apply regardless of cultural, legal, or social context. While the specifics of the eight needs are not detailed in the transcript, they are designed to ensure that everyone can see themselves in the inclusion conversation, moving beyond single-identity or ‘labelled’ approaches. The framework is openly available online for leaders and practitioners.
6. How should organisations use systems and structures to promote inclusion?
Drawing on behavioural economics, Dr. Wilson recommends restructuring processes so inclusive actions are the default—just as changing the order of food at a buffet influences healthy eating. By mandating inclusive steps in decision-making, talent processes, and day-to-day business, organisations can reliably shift behaviours in an inclusive direction without relying on individual goodwill.
7. How does the episode address current political and social backlash against DEI initiatives?
Both Joanne and Dr. Wilson discuss the recent political rhetoric and policy shifts in countries like the United States and Australia, which have challenged progress in inclusion and equity. Dr. Wilson warns that polarising and activist approaches can trigger resistance and recommends centrist, benefits-focused strategies framed around ‘what’s in it for me’ to broaden buy-in and prevent entrenchment of opposition.
8. What is the importance of intersectionality in Dr. Wilson’s approach?
Dr. Wilson argues that traditional DEI programmes often fail because they treat people's identities as one-dimensional—such as focusing only on gender or race. In reality, individuals embody multiple identities and experiences (e.g., gender, neurodiversity, disability, parenthood, grief), which intersect to influence their inclusion needs. Her framework seeks to address people as whole individuals, rather than ‘tick-box’ categories.
9. How can those working in inclusion and equity maintain resilience amidst resistance or setbacks?
Dr. Wilson shares her personal experiences of facing both overt opposition and systemic challenges, emphasising the value of connection, mutual support, and self-compassion for those undertaking this work. She reminds listeners that true change is incremental and that progress is achieved through influencing those closest to us and steadily expanding impact, rather than relying on radical overnight shifts.
10. Where can listeners learn more or access Dr. Wilson’s inclusion frameworks?
Listeners can connect with Dr. Liz Wilson on LinkedIn for further conversation or access to her materials. Her eight inclusion needs framework and associated resources are freely available online—searchable by name and explainer videos. Joanne Lockwood will also include relevant links in the show notes at seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.
For more in-depth discussions about fostering inclusive cultures, visit the Inclusion Bites Podcast, or contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or participate in future episodes.
Tell me more about the guest and their views
The guest for this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast is Dr. Liz Wilson—a behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert with substantial experience in transformational change within organisations. Her academic credentials include a PhD focusing on behavioural science and organisational culture. Dr. Wilson’s self-described superpower is transforming personal adversity into a global mission for workplace equity and inclusion, highlighting her commitment to turning lived struggles into collective progress.
Key Views and Approaches:
1. Culture as Behaviour and Action
Dr. Wilson debunks the notion that organisational culture is simply a set of stated values. She insists that true culture is defined by collective behaviour and decisions. According to her, “…culture is made up of behaviours and actions…what’s demonstrated. What do we behaviourally do and what are the actions and decisions that we make?” She emphasises that shifting belief systems isn’t the goal; focus should be on nudging observable behaviours that align with inclusive values.
2. Systems and Processes Before Beliefs
Central to her philosophy is the idea that true inclusion starts at the systemic level—not with superficial training or by trying to change people’s beliefs. Drawing from behavioural economics, Dr. Wilson advocates for deliberate organisational structures that require inclusive actions as a condition of progression. She likens this to placing healthier food first at a buffet: if you want to change outcomes, alter the system so that inclusive behaviours become the default, not the afterthought.
3. Talent Acquisition Comes Last
A distinctive and perhaps controversial stance Dr. Wilson takes is her prioritisation of structural and cultural readiness before recruitment. Rather than focusing on ‘diversifying the pipeline’ as a first step, she argues for fixing the organisation’s environment so that when underrepresented people join, they encounter a genuinely inclusive workplace: “…if all you do is focus on getting more diverse people into the room, you’re just giving them another experience to have another…opportunity to have a shit experience. We have to get our ducks in a row first...”
4. Inclusion is Universal—Not Just for Minoritised Groups
She pushes back against the habit of viewing inclusion as something for ‘others’ by creating frameworks—such as her “Eight Inclusion Needs of All People”—that are universally relevant. Her approach is heavily intersectional, going beyond single labels and acknowledging complex, overlapping identities.
5. Intersectional, Evidence-Based, and Pragmatic
Dr. Wilson’s research led her to challenge fragmented, label-based approaches to DEI (e.g., ‘women’s programmes’). She found that these often failed to address people’s whole lived experience—such as neurodiversity, disability, parental responsibilities, or bereavement—alongside gender or race. Her global research and consulting praxis have shaped a strategic framework that’s applicable “at team level, at a systems level, for customers…across government…in law, and in education.”
6. Critical of Activism-Only Tactics, Favouring Allied Influence
Dr. Wilson is pragmatic about effecting systemic change, noting that confrontational, activist approaches can provoke defensiveness and pushback (“…the change management approach hasn’t been correct…”). Instead, she recommends engaging those in positions of privilege to understand “what’s in it for me” and leveraging their influence for broader, sustainable change.
7. Personal Adversity as Professional Motivation
Her own lived experiences—including expulsion from school, ADHD diagnosis as an adult, and personal grief—inform her empathetic and systems-driven approach. She’s forthright about mental health, neurodiversity, and overcoming stigma, stating how understanding these aspects of herself has been empowering, both personally and in driving her mission.
In Summary:
Dr. Liz Wilson argues that to achieve true workplace equity, organisations must focus less on slogans and more on systemic change, such as embedding inclusive actions into everyday processes. Inclusion is not just a matter for underrepresented groups—it must be universal and intersectional. Dr. Wilson’s philosophy is underpinned by robust research, practical experience, and a refreshingly unvarnished take on what works (and what doesn’t) in cultural transformation.
Her views challenge the status quo and provide a roadmap for organisations serious about embedding equity beyond performative measures. If you want to explore her framework, she has made it open access—demonstrating her commitment to widereaching and practical impact.
Ideas for Future Training and Workshops based on this Episode
Certainly! Drawing inspiration from “The Science of Workplace Equity” (Inclusion Bites Podcast, ep. 159), here are workshop and training ideas—rooted in the episode’s discourse between Joanne Lockwood and Dr. Liz Wilson—that can enable real transformation in workplace equity, inclusion, and cultural change:
1. The Science of Inclusion: Behavioural Change in Organisations
Focus: Equip participants with practical frameworks for embedding inclusive behaviours, not merely shifting attitudes.
Examine Dr. Liz Wilson’s evidence-based approach: start with systems and architecture, not with trying to change beliefs.
Use behavioural economics studies (e.g., the buffet experiment) to illustrate structuring choices towards inclusion.
Hands-on: Map current systems and identify opportunities to “design in” inclusive actions at key decision points.
2. Beyond Labels: The Eight Inclusion Needs of All People
Focus: Explore and apply Dr. Wilson’s ‘Eight Inclusion Needs’ framework to participant teams and organisational challenges.
Identify how intersectionality impacts employee experience and policy effectiveness.
Workshop case studies where multiple identities overlap (e.g., race and neurodiversity; gender and chronic illness).
Create team action plans utilising the framework to deliver more holistic, intersectional inclusion.
3. Managing Change: Moving from Activism to Sustainable Culture Shift
Focus: Investigate why inclusion initiatives sometimes falter and how to counter resistance effectively.
Dissect why activist or adversarial approaches trigger backlash (the “castle and peasants” metaphor).
Skill-building: Coaching participants in centrist, persuasive language that secures incremental change.
Practice translating “inclusion” into the ‘What’s In It For Me?’ for various stakeholders.
4. Inclusive Leadership in Action: Championing Behaviour Not Beliefs
Focus: Train leaders to model and reinforce inclusion through observable action, not just values statements.
Explore challenges and privileges in shaping “team culture” especially across hybrid/remote contexts.
Coaching: Role-play difficult conversations where leaders must intervene on behaviour rather than intent.
Develop leader toolkits to sustain change in everyday workflows, including checklists and inclusive decision-making matrices.
5. Retention-Focused Equity: Building Cultures People Stay For
Focus: Reverse-engineer retention through equity—preparing organisations before ramping up diverse recruitment.
Assess readiness for diversity through “culture tank audits.”
Simulation: Help teams design systems where inclusion is woven into retention, onboarding, and progression pathways.
Use lived experience stories to spotlight why “leaky bucket” recruitment is costly without cultural healing.
6. Neurodiversity and the Spectrum of Needs
Focus: Normalise conversations around neurodiversity and invisible disabilities, inspired by both speakers’ lived experiences.
De-bunk gender and behavioural stereotypes around ADHD, autism, and more.
Create practical adjustments and microactions leaders can take to include neurodiverse team members.
Encourage team members to co-design “user manuals” for their working styles.
7. Responding to Pushback: Navigating Social and Political Tensions
Focus: Prepare D&I practitioners and leaders to respond constructively to waves of resistance, “anti-woke” sentiment, or legislative change (ref. US/UK/Aus examples in podcast).
Train participants in risk assessment and scenario planning.
Develop scripts and FAQs for handling common challenges, including online harassment or policy roll-backs.
8. Employer Brand and Values: When Inclusion Gets Personal
Focus: Bridge personal and organisational values, minimising the mismatch that often causes exclusion.
Explore exercises such as “carrying your culture with you” (the four square metres metaphor).
Facilitate team dialogues to identify shared and divergent values, aiming for behavioural contract alignment, not assimilation.
9. Creating Safe Spaces for Difficult Conversations
Focus: Techniques in psychological safety, especially useful for marginalised or intersectional voices.
Practice responding to microaggressions, structural inequalities, or ‘castle ramparts’ defensive mindsets in real time.
Develop action steps for managers to help lower the “drawbridge”—enabling open dialogue and meaningful change.
All sessions can be accompanied by practical toolkits, reflection journals, and ongoing support materials to embed learning beyond the workshop setting.
To maximise engagement and customisation, each could include pre-session diagnostics and post-session accountability check-ins.
For show notes, frameworks, or further resources mentioned in this episode, visit the Inclusion Bites Podcast page, or contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
🪡 Threads by Instagram
True organisational culture isn’t something imposed from above—it lives in the four square metres around you. Every behaviour matters. Carry your culture with you and watch your team’s environment transform from within.
You can’t change people’s beliefs, nor should you try. Lasting inclusion comes from embedding inclusive actions into systems—making equity the routine default, not an afterthought.
Focusing on recruitment first in diversity drives doesn’t work. Fix retention, nurture a truly inclusive culture, then diverse talent will stick—and thrive. It’s about more than just opening the door.
Inclusion isn’t exclusive—everyone benefits when barriers are removed. When people see “what’s in it for me,” they’re more likely to leave the drawbridge down and build belonging for all.
You can’t train bias away in an hour. For real change, align systems, set expectations, and meet people where they are—one inclusive behaviour at a time. Culture change is a marathon, not a sprint.
Leadership Insights - YouTube Short Video Script on Common Problems for Leaders to Address
Leadership Insights Channel
Struggling to create genuine workplace inclusion? Here’s the truth: many leaders believe their organisation’s culture is good, but real culture lives within day-to-day behaviours—not in catchy values on the wall.
Here’s the common pitfall: leaders focus on changing people’s beliefs. The reality? You can’t—and shouldn’t—force everyone’s values to align. Instead, create systems that make inclusive behaviours the norm.
Three key actions you can take:
Design Processes That Require Inclusion: For any decision-making or project cycle, embed an inclusive step. This isn’t about policing values; it’s about shaping action.
Model Everyday Behaviours: Your team mirrors your actions more than your intentions. Show up as the leader who welcomes diverse perspectives—consistently.
Build for Retention Before Recruitment: Prioritise a culture where everyone can thrive before you focus on hiring. If you don’t, new talent simply won’t stay.
Positive change comes from practical shifts in behaviour, not grand declarations. Start small, make inclusion a daily requirement, and watch your culture improve from the inside out.
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8 Inclusion Needs That Drive Equity | The Science Behind Workplace Change | Liz @ The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Why 208 Years to Pay Equity? The Data Science Behind Equity Transformation | Liz @ The Inclusion Bites Podcast
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Subject: Workplace Equity Decoded!🎙️ Five Game-Changers from the Latest Inclusion Bites Episode
Hello Inclusion Bites Family,
Ready to spark big change in the way you think about workplace culture? The latest episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, The Science of Workplace Equity, is out now—and it's packed with eye-opening moments and fresh ideas for anyone passionate about transforming work environments.
This time, Joanne Lockwood welcomes Dr. Liz Wilson, a behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert, for an energetic chat that’s clever, challenging, and full of practical wisdom.
Here are 5 keys you’ll discover from this episode:
Culture Isn’t Just Corporate—It’s Personal: Learn how every individual contributes to organisational culture through their daily behaviours, and why dragging everyone "back to the office for the sake of culture" might backfire.
Changing Minds? Start with Structures, Not Lectures: Dr. Liz dives into why changing organisational systems and processes matters more than trying to overhaul people’s core beliefs—and how this leads to real, lasting behavioural change.
Diversity Programmes: Why Retention Must Come First: Find out why focusing solely on hiring diverse talent misses the mark, and why building inclusive systems before bringing new people in is the key to success.
Inclusion Is For Everyone: Dr. Liz introduces her research-backed "Eight Inclusion Needs of All People," a framework that works globally—even in the most challenging environments—and truly puts intersectionality at the heart of the conversation.
The Importance of ‘What’s In It For Me?’: Discover how effective change begins when everyone sees themselves as part of the inclusion story, not just ‘doing it for someone else.’
A unique gem from this episode:
Dr. Liz shares the story of being expelled from school in Year 8—not for something she’d done, but because of others’ assumptions about her behaviour. It’s a powerful reminder of the lifelong effects of culture, labels, and inclusivity (or the lack of it)—and how quickly a new, supportive environment can turn things around.
Time to take action!
Don’t just listen—join the movement. After the episode, ask yourself: What’s one system or behaviour in your own workplace you could nudge towards equity and inclusion? And don’t be shy—share your ideas or stories with Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, or connect on LinkedIn. You might just feature on a future episode!
Catch the full episode here:
Inclusion Bites Podcast – The Science of Workplace Equity
Thanks for being part of the Inclusion Bites family. Together, we can turn bold conversations into real change—one workplace at a time. Let’s keep the drawbridge down and make inclusion everyone’s business.
Catch you on the next bite,
The Inclusion Bites Team
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #SeeChangeHappen
Potted Summary
Episode Intro
Join Joanne Lockwood as she converses with Dr Liz Wilson on the science underpinning workplace equity. Together, they explore the behavioural and systemic levers needed for true organisational inclusion, challenge common DEI approaches, and candidly share personal stories of navigating adversity and transformation. This episode dismantles myths around culture change, examines inclusion through a behavioural science lens, and reveals how everyone can benefit—making inclusion not just a value, but a measurable, actionable outcome.
In this conversation we discuss
👉 Culture & Behaviour
👉 Inclusive Systems
👉 Intersectional Needs
Here are a few of our favourite quotable moments
“All you're trying to do is ensure there's an alignment of behaviours and actions to what are those principles or values.”
“If all you do is focus on getting more diverse people into the room, you're just giving them another, another opportunity to have a shit experience.”
“We need to put systems in place that create inclusive action. Even if you don't realise you're doing it, you just do it because that's part of the process.”
Summary & Call to Action
This insightful episode cuts through complexity to reveal why old DEI strategies often fall short, and shows the science behind sustainable workplace equity. Joanne and Liz highlight practical steps for making inclusion genuine and enduring. Want a new perspective—and tangible strategies—for driving change in your workplace? Listen now to Inclusion Bites: The Science of Workplace Equity and take your understanding to the next level.
LinkedIn Poll
LinkedIn Poll Framing (Opening Summary):
In Episode 159 of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, "The Science of Workplace Equity", Dr Liz Wilson and Joanne Lockwood delve into how meaningful culture change starts with behaviours and systems—not just recruitment or labels. They discuss the power of everyday actions, systemic design, and why genuine inclusion requires intentional effort at every level. We’d love your thoughts on what you believe is the most effective lever for creating a truly equitable workplace.
Poll Question:
What’s the most important driver for workplace equity?
Poll Options (each ≤ 30 characters, with emoji):
🌱 Everyday Behaviours
🏗 Inclusive Systems
🗣 Leadership Mindset
🤝 Aligned Values
Hashtags:
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #Belonging #InclusionIgnited
Closing (Why Vote):
Your input will help further the conversation on what really creates sustained equity and inclusion at work. Cast your vote to spotlight what matters most—and see how your perspective aligns with others in our community!
Highlight the Importance of this topic on LinkedIn
Just listened to the latest episode of Inclusion Bites Podcast: The Science of Workplace Equity with Joanne Lockwood and Dr. Liz Wilson. 🎧✨
This conversation cuts straight to the heart of what real workplace culture transformation requires—moving beyond performative values to embedding inclusive behaviours throughout every process.
Key reflections:
🔍 True organisational change isn’t about forcing beliefs—it’s about reshaping systems so inclusive actions become the norm.
👥 Retention before recruitment! As Dr. Wilson shares, bringing in diverse talent without fixing the culture is a wasted effort. “Get your ducks in a row before you open the door.”
🧭 Everyone has inclusion needs. When our frameworks shift from ticking boxes to thinking whole person, we create environments where all individuals can thrive—across every identity and lived experience.
🌐 Especially in today’s climate, when DEI is under scrutiny, this episode is a reminder: the way forward is strategic, evidence-driven, and human.
Highly recommend for senior leaders, HR, and EDI professionals serious about raising the bar. Let’s build workplaces where everyone can belong and succeed.
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #EDI #HRLeadership #CultureChange #Belonging
🔗 Listen here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
L&D Insights
Certainly! Here’s a punchy L&D expert’s debrief for Senior Leaders, HR, and EDI (Equality, Diversity & Inclusion) professionals, drawing on the key themes and "aha moments" from this episode of Inclusion Bites, “The Science of Workplace Equity” with Dr. Liz Wilson and Joanne Lockwood.
✨ Key Takeaways for Senior Leaders, HR & EDI Pros
1. Culture is Hyper-Local — Not Just Organisational
Dr. Liz Wilson highlights that, contrary to the traditional belief that organisations have a monolithic "culture", real influence happens at the micro (team/manager) level. "You carry your organisational culture with you," she says. Aha moment: Leadership should recognise that culture is experienced most keenly in the immediate 4 square metres around each individual, largely shaped by direct supervisors and small teams.
2. Alignment of Behaviours over Forced Values
You cannot and should not change employees’ core beliefs or values in the name of inclusion. Instead, build systems and incentives that align behaviour with your organisation's values. Create required inclusive actions—make inclusion a habit, not an afterthought or a box-ticking exercise!
3. Start with Retention, Not Recruitment
Stop making “diversity hiring” your headline EDI initiative. Liz advises sorting out your workplace culture prior to focusing on recruitment. Otherwise, you risk bringing diverse talent into an unreceptive environment—resulting in attrition and poor experiences. Think: Retention-first, not recruitment-first.
4. Inclusion Isn’t Piecemeal—It’s for EVERYONE
Addressing intersectionality, Liz asserts inclusion initiatives are ineffective when siloed by labels (e.g., women's programmes, LGBTQ+ focus, etc.). Fundamentally, everyone has inclusion needs—roll out frameworks that address the whole person, not just one dimension.
5. Change Management: Avoid the Activist Trap
If you push for EDI by telling people “everything you’ve done is wrong—change now!”, you trigger resistance. Instead, show the “WIIFM” (What’s In It For Me) for inclusion, and approach the conversation with empathy and shared benefit. Aha moment: You can’t train away bias in one session or force belief shifts via activism.
🔄 Recommendations for Practice
Diagnose Team-Level Culture: Don’t assume your culture is cascaded from the top. Measure, understand, and intervene at the team level.
Systemic Inclusion Over Training Alone: Prioritise redesigning processes, policies, and signals (think: “Monopoly board” steps) to embed inclusion in daily decision-making.
Retention Metrics First: Before you set ambitious hiring targets, audit your attrition, exit interviews, and thrive rates of marginalised groups.
Adopt Universal Inclusion Frameworks: Explore tools like “The Eight Inclusion Needs of All People” (Google it!) for a scalable, non-siloed approach.
Communicate WIIFM Clearly: Position inclusion as a value-add for all employees, not a niche interest. Build narratives and dialogue that reduce anxiety around “loss of privilege” and highlight collective benefit.
💡 “Aha!” Moments to Remember
Culture migrates with people—it’s not just what happens at HQ.
Sustainable behavioural change stems from systemic nudges, not belief-policing.
Retention-focused inclusion makes recruitment sustainable.
“Activist” approaches to change management alienate—shared narratives engage.
Everyone has a stake and need in inclusion; one-size programs miss the mark.
What Should Leaders Do Differently Now?
Shift your focus from what’s written in the Values Statement to how people behave and make decisions every day.
Prioritise cultural hygiene before increasing headcount of underrepresented groups.
Leverage frameworks that allow everyone, especially those in "privilege", to see themselves in the inclusion journey.
Communicate change empathetically, and make processes your main levers—not isolated training events.
Engage the “moveable middle” and build momentum incrementally, instead of aiming straight for ideological extremes.
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #CultureChange #RetentionFirst #InclusiveLeadership 🚀🌍
Feel free to share these insights with your leadership teams and EDI committees to spark the next wave of meaningful, actionable change!
Shorts Video Script
Title for Video Post:
Why Workplace Equity Fails: The Science Behind Real Inclusion #WorkplaceEquity #InclusionMatters
Hashtags:
#EquityInAction
#InclusiveWorkplace
#BehaviouralScience
#CultureChange
#BelongingAtWork
[Text on screen: The REAL Science of Workplace Equity 🧬]
Ever wondered why so many diversity and inclusion initiatives just don’t deliver? Let’s get to the science of what actually works—and what doesn’t.
[Text on screen: Drop the “activist” approach 🚫]
First, if you come in telling people their whole way of working is wrong and they should feel guilty—well, human nature kicks in. People dig in their heels, the drawbridge goes up, and change won’t happen. Real behavioural change in the workplace doesn’t start by trying to manipulate beliefs or values.
[Text on screen: Focus on Actions, Not Attitudes 🏗️]
It all comes down to how we shift behaviours and actions. Rather than trying to get everyone to believe the same thing, what if we build systems and processes that require inclusive actions as a default? Think about it: if you want your organisation to be inclusive, you design the process so that everyone has to take purposeful, inclusive steps to move forward.
[Text on screen: Build Inclusion into Systems 📝]
Inclusion must be embedded in everyday practices—across recruitment, progression, decision-making, and team culture. Don’t just focus on bringing diverse people in; focus on building environments where they can actually thrive.
[Text on screen: Start with Retention, not Recruitment 🔄]
Don’t just bring new people into a broken system. Start by fixing your culture and processes first—otherwise, you’ll just repeat the cycle of exclusion.
[Text on screen: See Yourself in Inclusion 🪞]
And here’s the key: everyone has inclusion needs, no matter their background. If people can see what’s in it for them—if inclusion becomes about all of us, not “just” a labelled group—that’s when real buy-in happens.
[Text on screen: Lasting Change is Systemic 🌍]
The science is clear: sustainable change requires everyone to act inclusively, because the system is designed for it. It’s not about policing beliefs; it’s about making inclusion the obvious, easy, and expected choice at every step.
Thanks for watching! Remember, together we can make a difference. Stay connected, stay inclusive! See you next time. ✨
Glossary of Terms and Phrases
Certainly! Here is a list of specialised words and phrases from this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast (“The Science of Workplace Equity”), along with the definitions as implied in the conversation. These terms are either technical, sector-specific, or nuanced ways of discussing workplace inclusion and equity that most people wouldn’t use in daily conversation:
1. Behavioural Scientist
A professional who studies and applies knowledge about human behaviours—particularly how organisational, psychological, and social factors influence actions and decision-making within the workplace.
2. Strategic Inclusion Expert / Practitioner
Someone focused on designing and implementing long-term, data-driven strategies that embed inclusive practices into every aspect of an organisation, rather than relying on ad hoc initiatives.
3. Data and Research-driven Frameworks
Methodologies or structures for organisational change that are grounded in empirical research and quantifiable data, rather than anecdotal evidence or intuition.
4. Organisational Culture
Not just company values as written, but the lived behaviours and unwritten social norms shaping how employees act day to day—often described as “what happens when no one is looking.”
5. Four Square Metres (of Culture)
A metaphor introduced by Dr Liz Wilson signifying the immediate sphere of influence each person carries within an organisation; the idea is that you can actively shape the culture within your own personal space and interactions.
6. Culture Carrying / Culture Portability
The notion that individuals bring their personal and community cultures into the workplace, rather than entirely absorbing or conforming to a company’s prescribed culture.
7. Values Alignment
Refers to the degree to which an individual’s personal values match those espoused by the organisation, contributing to how one experiences authenticity and belonging at work.
8. Cultural Transformation
A systematic and strategic process to shift the collective behaviours, beliefs, and practices within an organisation, aiming to create an environment where diversity and inclusion are genuinely prioritised.
9. Talent Acquisition Cycle
The end-to-end hiring process, including attracting, selecting, and onboarding employees. The episode highlights how inclusive change should be embedded here, but not start and end with recruitment.
10. Retention in Mind
A principle that sustainable inclusion requires building organisational systems to retain, support, and allow underrepresented groups to thrive—not just hiring for diversity.
11. Inclusion Needs / The Eight Inclusion Needs of All People
A framework developed by Dr Liz Wilson, outlining eight core requirements necessary for all individuals to experience true inclusion, transcending labels such as gender, race, or disability. (Not detailed in full in the transcript, but alluded to as fundamental to her science of equity.)
12. Intersectionality
A concept describing how aspects of a person’s identities (e.g., gender, race, neurodiversity, parenting status, disability) intersect and interact, impacting how they experience inclusion or exclusion.
13. Systems and Architectures
Structural or systemic elements—ranging from policies and processes to digital tools—that guide and sometimes “force” inclusive behaviours by making the desired action the easiest or default one.
14. Behavioural Economics (as applied to Inclusion)
Drawing on the study of how behavioural principles (such as default options and system design) can nudge people toward more inclusive actions, often without needing to alter deep-seated beliefs.
15. The “WIFM” (What’s In It For Me?) Principle
A change management term referencing the need to connect any initiative to the personal interests and motivations of stakeholders, for effective engagement and behavioural change.
16. Activist Approach vs. Systems Approach
Contrasts an urgency-driven, sometimes confrontational change style (“activist approach”) with a structural, systemised pathway to inclusion (“systems approach”), arguing that the latter is more effective for lasting impact.
17. Affirmative Action
Mentioned as a misunderstood part of DEI, this refers to proactive policies or initiatives designed to address historic or systemic inequalities by prioritising underrepresented groups in recruitment or promotion.
18. Zero Sum Game
A term from game theory, discussed here in the context of privilege—expressing the fear that sharing resources or opportunities with underrepresented groups means a loss for those currently in positions of power.
These concepts, articulated throughout the conversation, provide a richer, more precise vocabulary for discussing the science and practice of workplace equity than is typically encountered outside diversity and organisational psychology spaces.
SEO Optimised YouTube Content
Focus Keyword:
Workplace Equity
Title:
The Science of Workplace Equity: Driving Culture Change for Positive People Experiences | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags:
workplace equity, culture change, positive people experiences, inclusion, belonging, diversity, DEI, strategic inclusion, behavioural science, organisational change, inclusion podcast, inclusive culture, intersectionality, retention, team culture, inclusion frameworks, workplace transformation, corporate values, leadership, inclusive workplaces, see change happen, behaviour change, equity strategy, inclusion needs, psychological safety, Joanne Lockwood
Killer Quote:
"You can't put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour and train my beliefs out of me. It's never going to happen. So if we think a training course is going to change someone's beliefs, and in fact, you shouldn't be trying to change people's beliefs. You just shouldn't." – Dr. Liz Wilson
Hashtags:
#WorkplaceEquity, #CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #InclusionBites, #InclusionPodcast, #SeeChangeHappen, #DEI, #InclusionNeeds, #StrategicInclusion, #Belonging, #BehaviouralScience, #OrganisationalCulture, #Intersectionality, #PsychologicalSafety, #InclusionFrameworks, #Leadership, #Retention, #InclusiveWorkplace, #EquityStrategy, #HumanExperience
Why Listen
Are you seeking genuine insight into workplace equity and how it can revolutionise culture change within your organisation? In this compelling episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, I, Joanne Lockwood, team up with Dr. Liz Wilson—a leading behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert—to dig deep into the science and societal impact of workplace equity. Our rich conversation pulls back the curtain on the challenges, misconceptions, and bold strategies that can transform not just your company's structures but the very lived experiences of every individual.
From the outset, Dr. Liz shares her expertise honed over decades, illuminating the pivotal difference between surface-level initiatives and transformative change. We explore why workplace equity is not merely a question of recruitment or diverse hiring, but fundamentally about embedding inclusive behaviours, principles, and systemic adjustments across every touchpoint—cultivating Positive People Experiences that resonate at every level.
Why is culture change so tough, and why do so many DEI strategies falter? Dr. Liz responds candidly: you cannot and should not try to alter people's core values through blunt-force training or overzealous activism. Change emerges when systems and processes scaffold, model, and reward the behaviours that underpin inclusivity—making inclusive action the effortless, default state rather than an afterthought. Together, we reflect on how culture isn’t just a corporate catchphrase dispensed from on high. It’s lived, local, and personal—a sum of micro-environments, shaped by managers and teams, and carried forth by every employee.
We also tackle the perennial issue of “values alignment”—recognising that most people bring unique cultural identities and expectations with them, often at odds with canned corporate values. This blend of organisational culture and individual authenticity is where the rubber truly meets the road. As we both agree, culture change is not about forcing employees to assimilate or fit in. Rather, it's about embracing, nurturing, and integrating varied personal cultures for a richer, more creative and dynamic collective experience.
Dr. Liz astutely draws from her research to argue that if diversity and inclusion efforts focus solely on entry points, such as recruitment, without addressing the underlying culture, behaviours, and systems, all you've succeeded in doing is inviting difference into a toxic environment—resulting in quick exits and wasted investment. Instead, she highlights a retention-first mindset: sort out your house before inviting people in.
You'll also learn about the "eight inclusion needs of all people"—a practical, research-driven framework that Dr. Liz has made open access. This robust tool reimagines inclusion not as a checklist of categories but as a set of universal human needs. Across geographies, identities, and legal backdrops, this framework ensures inclusion strategies are holistic, intersectional, and sustainable—allowing everyone to see themselves not as a diversity label but as a whole, complex person.
Perhaps most memorable are our honest reflections on the societal resistance and political pushback to DEI, especially in polarised times. Dr. Liz and I cut through the noise, arguing for centrist, pragmatic engagement over anger or performative activism. We agree: to generate sustainable culture change, influence is best cultivated within reach—amongst those who may be just off-centre and open to empathy, rather than at the far, immovable fringes.
Through captivating metaphors (yes, including castles, Marmite, and peasants revolting!) and personal stories—from neurodiversity and expulsion at age 13 to navigating executive resistance and global intersectional realities—this episode offers an actionable, humanising perspective on what true workplace equity requires. And at every turn, we return to the consistent thread: the ultimate goal is to create a workplace not just where people stay, but where they thrive. That’s the heart of Positive People Experiences.
If you're an HR professional, people leader, DEI advocate, or simply someone passionate about building better organisations, this episode is a masterclass in navigating the genuine challenges—and celebrating the profound rewards—of meaningful culture change. Listen in for practical wisdom, a few laughs, and a reinvigorated belief in the power of inclusion, one behaviour, and one person at a time.
Closing Summary and Call to Action
Let’s distil today’s learning and insights into key actionable points for embedding workplace equity and realising Positive People Experiences through purposeful culture change:
1. Start with the System, Not Just the People
Focus on designing policies, procedures, and processes that make inclusive behaviour obligatory and natural, not optional.
Recognise that you cannot train or guilt people into changing their beliefs; create frameworks where inclusive actions are rewarded and embedded in everyday routines.
2. Centre Retention Before Recruitment
Avoid the pitfall of “diverting difference into dysfunction.” Build a genuinely inclusive, psychologically safe environment before investing energy in diverse hiring.
If new hires enter a “toxic tank,” no onboarding or training will mask poor culture—they’ll leave rapidly, undermining your efforts and resources.
3. Embrace Whole-Person Inclusion (Intersectionality)
Move beyond siloed “diversity groups.” Recognise that every individual is more than any single label—they have layered, overlapping identities, needs, and lived experiences.
Use frameworks (like Dr. Liz’s eight inclusion needs) to understand and plan inclusion strategies that are universally relevant, not just for “target groups.”
4. Champion Team and Local Cultures
Culture is lived locally. Empower and educate line managers and supervisors to role-model and drive inclusion daily—it’s their micro-cultures that most deeply influence each employee’s experience.
Recognise that organisational values are only effective when demonstrated in team behaviours and decisions, not just printed on posters.
5. Don’t Mistake Activism for Change
Real, sustainable culture change does not spring from confrontation or by shaming “the opposition.” It’s fostered through centrist, empathic, and persistent engagement.
Find common ground; focus your influence where minds are open and ready, not where resistance is strongest.
6. Apply Behavioural Economics to Culture Change
Small system “nudges”—such as making inclusive steps mandatory in processes—lead to big changes over time.
Make inclusion the default, not the exceptional or additional step.
7. Translate the Why: What’s In It for Me?
Remember the WIFM: People need to understand their personal stake in workplace equity.
Help colleagues see how inclusion meets needs for everyone, not just for certain categories.
8. Open and Transparent Communication
When pushback or backlash to DEI arises, stay transparent about the benefits, back your initiatives with clear data, and communicate the advantages to all stakeholders.
Use stories and metaphor to make concepts relatable—don’t be afraid to bring in humour or real-life analogies, as we did with castles and Marmite.
9. Extend Your Learning and Leverage Open Resources
Investigate open-access tools like the Eight Inclusion Needs framework to bolster your strategy.
Reach out to experts—both Dr. Liz and I are available on LinkedIn for further discussion or support.
10. Commit to Continuous Change and Self-Reflection
Inclusion and culture change are ongoing journeys, not tick-box events. Encourage iterative feedback, regular reflection, and adapt your approaches as your organisation evolves.
By harnessing these principles, you can break free from the cycle of performative DEI and create a workplace where everyone is empowered to contribute, innovate, and flourish—transforming not just HR strategy, but the whole fabric of your organisation. That’s the essence of culture change and Positive People Experiences.
Ready to ignite change and foster lasting workplace equity?
Subscribe to the Inclusion Bites Podcast for monthly episodes with practical strategies and real-world stories.
Visit SEE Change Happen and the Inclusion Bites Podcast page for further resources and show notes.
Share your own insights and join the conversation by emailing me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Together, let’s challenge the status quo, upend outdated thinking, and truly reimagine what it means for every single person to belong and thrive at work.
Outro
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast. I truly appreciate you joining our journey towards workplace equity, culture change, and Positive People Experiences. Please like, subscribe, and share this channel to keep the conversation moving, and don’t forget to explore more episodes and resources at SEE Change Happen and the Inclusion Bites Podcast.
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive - Joanne Lockwood
Root Cause Analyst - Why!
Certainly, let's approach this episode—"The Science of Workplace Equity"—as a Root Cause Analyst. Drawing directly from the transcript, I'll pinpoint a central problem, interrogate it using the 'Five Whys' methodology, and then offer both a summary and actionable solutions.
Key Problem Identified:
Efforts to advance workplace equity and inclusion often fail to deliver meaningful or lasting change.
First Why:
Why do workplace equity and inclusion efforts often fail to deliver meaningful or lasting change?
Because organisations commonly focus on surface-level interventions, like recruitment (talent acquisition), without addressing deeper systemic, cultural, and behavioural issues.
Second Why:
Why do organisations focus on recruitment rather than deeper systemic change?
Because there is a misconception that simply increasing diversity in representation will automatically resolve equity and inclusion challenges, without recognising the importance of retention, inclusive systems, and a supportive culture.
Third Why:
Why do organisations believe that more diversity alone will solve equity and inclusion challenges?
Because there is a lack of understanding, frameworks, and practical expertise within leadership regarding how inclusion operates behaviourally and structurally. Many assume diverse individuals will ‘fit in’ rather than requiring change from within the organisation’s systems and practices.
Fourth Why:
Why is there a lack of understanding and practical frameworks among organisational leadership?
Because there is heavy reliance on generic, activist, or ideological approaches to inclusion, such as unconscious bias training or label-specific initiatives, which don’t translate into actionable systemic change. There’s also a disconnect between what’s researched, what’s proven effective, and what actually gets implemented.
Fifth Why:
Why do organisations rely on generic or activist-led approaches rather than evidence-based, structural interventions?
Because of discomfort with challenging the status quo, limited scholarship dissemination from behavioural science into practical HR and management processes, and a desire for quick wins or visible results, such as hiring targets, over the more rigorous and sustained work of systemic transformation.
Summary of Root Cause Analysis
The failure of workplace equity and inclusion efforts is rooted in a recurring cycle of superficial interventions—primarily recruitment—aimed at increasing representation without altering the underlying systems, cultures, or behaviours that perpetuate exclusion. This results from a profound misunderstanding: equity and inclusion are perceived as one-off training programmes or compliance exercises, rather than as ongoing, organisation-wide transformations. The complexity and discomfort associated with real system change lead to shortcuts, further reinforced by leadership’s lack of exposure to behavioural science and its methods.
Potential Solutions
1. Adopt Systems Thinking
Make inclusion and equity part of all organisational systems and processes, not just recruitment or ‘add-ons’. As Dr Liz Wilson explained, “we have to put systems and processes in place that require a certain action to be demonstrated.” For example, embedding inclusive practices into decision-making, project management, and performance review processes.
2. Start with Retention and Culture
Prioritise retention and the internal culture before attempting to increase diversity through recruitment. Establish supportive processes and an inclusive environment, as otherwise “you just give people another opportunity to have a poor experience.”
3. Implement Evidence-Based Frameworks
Utilise research-driven frameworks such as the “eight inclusion needs of all people”, ensuring initiatives are holistic, intersectional, and adaptable across all identities—moving beyond single-label approaches.
4. Build Leadership Capability
Invest in upskilling leaders and managers on the behavioural science of inclusion. Educate them about the distinction between values/beliefs and organisational behaviours/actions. Leaders must understand that “you cannot train beliefs out of people”, but you can require and reinforce inclusive behaviours.
5. Enable Organisational Buy-In
Frame inclusion in terms of “what’s in it for me?” for all employees. By identifying shared needs and making inclusion relevant for everyone, resistance can be reduced, and a broader coalition of change agents created within the workforce.
6. Systematically Remove Barriers
Regularly audit systems and processes for bias and exclusion, with the aim of proactively removing structural barriers rather than reacting to symptoms as they arise.
7. Make Resources and Frameworks Open Access
As Dr Wilson notes, tools like the “eight inclusion needs” framework should be made available organisation-wide to demystify inclusion work and support a bottom-up, as well as top-down, transformation.
In Summary:
Lasting workplace equity requires organisations to shift from piecemeal or cosmetic initiatives to systemic, evidence-based interventions that start with inclusion, adapt to genuine behavioural change, and are woven into the very fabric of the organisational culture. Only by addressing these root causes will change efforts move from performative to genuinely transformative.
Canva Slider Checklist
Episode Carousel
Slide 1
🚨 What REALLY holds back workplace equity? Is it the people… or the system itself?
Slide 2
Culture isn’t just a lofty “vision”—it’s shaped by everyday behaviours and your four square metres of influence. How are you impacting the culture around you, even remotely?
Slide 3
Here’s the science: You can’t (and shouldn’t) force people to change their beliefs. True inclusion starts by designing systems and processes that make inclusive actions the norm, not the exception.
Slide 4
Ready for the kicker? If you rush to ‘diversity hiring’ before fixing your culture and retention, you’re just setting new talent up to walk out the door. Start by creating spaces where EVERYONE can thrive first.
Slide 5
🎧 Want to learn the real strategies behind workplace equity? Tap the link in our bio to hear Dr Liz Wilson break it all down in “The Science of Workplace Equity” on the Inclusion Bites Podcast. Don’t just join the conversation—help drive real change.
#InclusionBites #EquityAtWork #Inclusion #Belonging #Podcast #ListenNow
6 major topics
The Science of Workplace Equity: Six Transformational Conversations with Dr. Liz Wilson
Meta description: Explore the science of workplace equity through six powerful conversations between Joanne Lockwood and Dr. Liz Wilson, delving into culture, inclusion frameworks, systemic change, intersectionality, activism pushback, and neurodiversity. Discover tangible ways to nurture workplace belonging and advance true workplace equity.
I recently sat down with Dr. Liz Wilson, a behavioural scientist and true champion for strategic inclusion, to dig deep into what the science of workplace equity really looks like. Our conversation was brimming with sharp insights, lived experiences, and bold challenges to the status quo. Here, I want to share the six core themes that emerged, each one brimming with food for thought and—yes—a fair amount of healthy debate. My hope is to spark your curiosity and perhaps get you reflecting on your own spheres of influence when it comes to nurturing workplace belonging.
Carrying Culture in Your Four Square Metres
(And Why Organisational Culture Is Personal)
From the outset, Liz had me captivated with her notion that we all “carry our organisational culture” within our own four square metres. That power to shape micro-cultures, regardless of grand corporate value statements, is a quiet revolution in workplace equity. We reminisced about post-pandemic days, with leaders trying to lure (or, let’s be honest, sometimes drag) people back to offices in the name of culture. But as Liz and I agreed, culture isn’t something you’re handed in a boardroom or forced to absorb along with tea from chipped mugs; it’s what each of us radiates in our team interactions, our values, and our daily behaviours—wherever we are.
This idea opens several questions: How do you influence your space, especially when your own values don’t neatly align with those plastered on the walls? Is culture ownership a subtle act of resistance or simply self-preservation? For many, it’s a blend of both.
Systems, Not Sermons: Behaviours Build Workplace Equity
(Why Changing Processes Trumps Persuasion)
The science of workplace equity, as Liz so elegantly put it, is not about trying to “train” people into new beliefs. In fact, it’s counterproductive—and possibly unethical—to try and engineer people’s core values. Instead, she spoke about designing architectures and processes, from recruitment right through to project management, that require inclusive actions in order to progress. As we laughed, it’s not unlike training a puppy: reward the desired behaviour, and embed that behaviour until it becomes culture.
Liz’s evidence-based approach was clear—don’t start with recruitment. If your workplace “tank” is still smelly, you’re simply inviting diverse talent in, only for them to leave by the back door. True workplace equity begins with retaining and nurturing everyone in an environment that is already inclusive. So, what’s lurking in your office processes that might still exclude? The answer might surprise you.
Activism, Resistance, and the WIFM Dilemma
(What’s In It For Me and Why Activist Rhetoric Can Backfire)
We waded into tricky waters: why do so many so-called “DEI” initiatives falter or invite backlash? Liz explained that behaviour change theory cautions against coming in hot with accusations or guilt. When we approach someone with “everything you’ve done until now was wrong,” the reflex is to double down and dig in.
Instead, effective workplace equity change comes from crafting a compelling “What’s in it for me?” narrative, where everyone sees themselves reflected in the change. As Liz pointed out, label-centric initiatives—whether around gender, race, or sexuality—often fail to reach those who don’t identify with that label, or who see it as “not my problem.” Can you make a case for inclusion that rings true for every listening ear?
Curious to know: Which arguments or drivers actually land with the “unconverted” in your workplace?
The Power (and Pitfalls) of Intersectionality
(Beyond Labels Towards Whole-Person Inclusion)
Liz’s research led her through the complexities of intersectionality: the insight that people are more than a single label or identity. The traditional women’s leadership programme, she argued, overlooks the unique overlays of neurodiversity, disability, parenthood, or grief that shape lived experience.
What’s more, Liz created an open-access framework—the Eight Inclusion Needs—that identifies core requirements for true belonging, regardless of societal or legal context. This framework resonated everywhere from First Nations communities in Australia to corporate giants in the US, spotlighting the importance of seeing the whole person.
Could your workplace equity initiatives be leaving some of your people out in the cold due to a focus on only one aspect of identity? What intersectional needs are hiding in plain sight?
Change Fatigue and the Pushback Against “Woke”
(Why Inclusive Work Needs New Strategies)
Our discussion confronted the rising cultural and political backlash against “DEI” and “wokeness.” Liz outlined how the mischaracterisation of workplace equity as “affirmative action” or special treatment for others stokes social division and undermines progress. We reflected on how inclusive system design isn’t about “taking away” from the majority but removing barriers so everyone can thrive.
Deploying inclusive systems strategically—across policy, talent, and operations—sidesteps ideological fights and creates environments where all feel safe to belong. The challenge? Translating the workplace equity mission into language and practicalities that every pocket of an organisation can understand and own.
A point of curiosity: How can your day-to-day communications reframe inclusion so it’s seen as a net gain for all, rather than a zero-sum game?
Lived Experience, Neurodiversity, and Unconventional Journeys
(Why Your Path to Workplace Equity Matters)
Liz and I both bared our souls about our own winding journeys—hers through ADHD diagnosis, expulsion from school, and the cross-continental pursuit of belonging; mine through navigating life and leadership as a woman with a transgender identity. We spoke about the power of openly owning your story—neurodiverse, disabled, queer, or anything else—in creating a culture where difference is normalised, rather than merely tolerated.
It begs the question: How can managers and colleagues both honour and practically support the unique ways people flourish or struggle? Might your team’s “misfit” be tomorrow’s innovation catalyst?
The Workplace Equity Imperative—Everyday, Everywhere
The science of workplace equity isn’t a glossy slogan or a one-off campaign. It’s a series of daily, cumulative choices—personal, behavioural, procedural—that result in a culture where everyone can truly thrive. When you next look round your “four square metres,” ask yourself: Are you carrying, shaping, or challenging the culture around you? What systems, stories, or beliefs could you shift, just a little, today?
To explore more, join the conversation at Inclusion Bites—and if you’ve got a reflection or story, I’d love to hear from you: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Let’s keep advancing workplace equity together.
TikTok Summary
Ready to shake up workplace culture? Dive into “The Science of Workplace Equity” with Dr Liz Wilson and Joanne Lockwood on Inclusion Bites! ⭐️ Unpack the real, research-driven secrets behind inclusion, debunk the buzzwords, and discover why changing systems—not just people—leads to true progress. Perfect for changemakers, HR pros, and anyone tired of surface-level diversity talk. Curious for more? Listen to the full episode 👉 https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen #InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #Belonging #ChangeMakers
Slogans and Image Prompts
Absolutely, here’s a curated selection of memorable slogans, soundbites, and quotes taken directly from this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, complete with bespoke AI image generation prompts for merchandise and sharable hashtags. Each one is designed to encapsulate the spirit of workplace equity and inclusion, making your merchandise both inspirational and visually engaging.
Slogans, Soundbites, & Quotes with Image Prompts
1.
Quote:
“It’s time to ignite the spark of inclusion.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A vibrant illustration of a lit match held over a diverse group of people forming a circle, where the spark transforms into a glowing multicoloured flame that symbolises unity, diversity, and belonging. Soft, positive lighting. Suitable for a mug or t-shirt design.
Hashtag:
#IgniteInclusion
2.
Quote:
“You carry your organisational culture with you—think of it as your four square metres.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A graphic showing an individual outlined in light, standing at the centre of a softly glowing four-metre square. Around the person, icons representing teamwork, respect, world, and home merge. Inviting pastel palette; clean, modern lines for a sticker or tote bag.
Hashtag:
#CultureSquare
3.
Quote:
“Fitting in is changing you for the organisation. Inclusion is being embraced for who you are.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
Two contrasting visuals side by side: one silhouette squeezed uneasily into a rigid, grey corporate puzzle, the other warmly welcomed by puzzle pieces morphing to fit them, all in bright, inclusive colours. Minimal, bold design for t-shirts.
Hashtag:
#BeEmbraced #InclusionIsBelonging
4.
Quote:
“Everyone has inclusion needs.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A joyous collection of stylised people, each unique in appearance, abilities, and expression, surrounded by floating icons representing different needs (speech, heart, ramps, neural symbols, ears, etc.) in a celebratory, accessible art style.
Hashtag:
#InclusionNeeds
5.
Quote:
“Start with retention in mind—sort out your culture before you diversify the room.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A brightly coloured fish tank illustration: the water is being cleaned and the environment arranged, ahead of new fish being introduced. Cheerful, metaphorical with gentle humour. Great for mugs, stickers.
Hashtag:
#RetentionFirst #CleanTheTank
6.
Quote:
“If you want to succeed in this organisation and get past go, you have to complete this step: inclusion.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
Inspired by a Monopoly board, the ‘Go’ square replaced by a vibrant ‘Inclusion’ step, with miniature figures of diverse people moving forward together. Playful, recognisable, yet empowering; perfect for t-shirts or notebook covers.
Hashtag:
#InclusionStep #PastGoTogether
7.
Quote:
“We all have more than one label—we are whole people.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A collage of diverse, smiling faces, each overlaid with colourful icons and words like “parent”, “neurodiverse”, “creative”, “leader”, “friend”, etc. Joyful, energetic style; ideal for stickers and t-shirts.
Hashtag:
#WholePeople #MoreThanOneLabel
8.
Quote:
“Make inclusion the easiest option, not the add-on.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A visual metaphor: two paths—one steep and rocky with a sign ‘Diversity add-on’, and the other wide, smooth, welcoming with a bright ‘Inclusion—This Way’ sign. Clean graphic art, uplifting tones.
Hashtag:
#InclusionFirst #NotAnAddOn
9.
Quote:
“You can’t put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour and train my beliefs out of me—don’t try to change people’s beliefs, change the system.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A wise, diverse group of adults in a training setting. The true focus is a large, intricate system of cogs and gears being carefully adjusted. Subtle, thoughtful style suitable for mugs or posters.
Hashtag:
#ChangeTheSystem
10.
Quote:
“Foster a more inclusive world, one episode at a time.”
AI Image Generation Prompt:
A globe wrapped in vibrant podcast soundwaves, interlaced with diverse silhouettes holding hands. Modern, positive, and dynamic—perfect for stickers or t-shirts.
Hashtag:
#InclusiveWorld #InclusionBites
Brand-Specific Sign-offs
“Inclusion Bites into the Status Quo”
Bold chomping bite over a traditional corporate pie chart or hierarchy, with rainbow colours bursting out.
#InclusionBites #BiteTheNorm
Use these compelling lines and visuals to spark conversation, spread the mission, and bring a bold, positive energy to your merchandise! If you need further customisation or a deeper focus on a particular quote, just let me know.
Inclusion Bites Spotlight
Dr Liz Wilson joins Joanne Lockwood in this month’s feature episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, “The Science of Workplace Equity,” offering an incisive, research-driven analysis of how we can engineer authentic equity and inclusion inside organisations. A behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert, Dr Wilson draws upon her extensive expertise in organisational culture transformation, wielding both lived experience and academic rigour to unpack the true levers of systemic change.
Dr Wilson’s philosophy is grounded in the conviction that workplace culture is not dictated from the top down but is constructed through the collective behaviours and micro-cultures shaped by each individual. She challenges the prevailing narrative that culture is something ‘given’ by the organisation and instead champions the concept of portable, personal culture—one which travels with us, shaped by our values, communities, and personal histories.
Rather than focusing on recruitment alone, Dr Wilson underscores the critical importance of retention—advocating for organisations to first “clean the tank” and create the enabling conditions for all employees to thrive. Her framework, built on the eight inclusion needs of all people, equips organisations to move beyond tokenistic initiatives and instead embed inclusion in systems, processes, and everyday decision-making. Dr Wilson demystifies the science behind behaviour change: it is not about forcibly rewriting beliefs, but about designing environments that make inclusive action the default, gradually building a genuinely inclusive culture from the ground up.
This conversation also boldly addresses the current sociopolitical tensions surrounding diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) work. Dr Wilson’s insights dismantle myths and help us appreciate the intersectional nature of inclusion—showing how genuine systemic change benefits everyone, not simply the ‘other’. She calls for a shift away from activist confrontation towards strategic, centre-ground influence—meeting people where they are and moving the inclusion agenda forward with evidence, empathy, and practical advocacy.
In this illuminating episode, Dr Wilson invites us to reflect: How can we personally embody the culture we wish to see—and how might small, intentional actions, layered over time, shape the very DNA of our workplaces? Her thought-provoking approach turns the lens inward, emphasising that sustainable workplace equity begins not with mandates or slogans, but with systems that value the whole person and meet universal human needs.
Tune in to discover Dr Liz Wilson’s transformative vision of workplace equity—one where every individual, regardless of background or identity, is empowered to belong and flourish. This is inclusion not as a box-ticking exercise, but as a science—and an everyday act of leadership.
Listen to “The Science of Workplace Equity” and immerse yourself in a truly actionable blueprint for building fairer, more human-centred organisations.
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #BehaviouralScience #Belonging
YouTube Description
Opening Hook:
Think workplace equity is just a trendy buzzword? Think again—what if you discovered that most organisations are doing inclusion all wrong, and it’s holding everyone back?
Description:
Dive into Episode 159 of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, "The Science of Workplace Equity," where host Joanne Lockwood (she/her) is joined by Dr Liz Wilson, an organisational behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert. In this game-changing conversation, they dismantle the myths behind workplace equity and get to the heart of what truly creates transformative, inclusive cultures.
You'll hear why trying to “fix” people is far less effective than re-engineering your organisational systems—and why real inclusion starts long before the talent acquisition stage. Dr Wilson shares how focusing on systems, processes, and behaviour-driven frameworks paves the way for authentic equity, and explains her globally-proven Eight Inclusion Needs framework. Explore the difference between fitting in and being embraced for who you are, and discover how inclusive actions, not forced beliefs, build a workplace where everyone thrives.
Key Insights:
True inclusion is embedded in systems, not surface-level training or recruitment pushes.
Culture is carried by every individual—your four square metres of influence matters.
The path to sustainable change comes from aligning organisational processes and everyday behaviours with inclusive values.
Everyone has inclusion needs; when these are met, performance and wellbeing soar for all.
Takeaways & Actions:
Rethink DEI strategies: Start with retention and culture, not just recruitment.
Challenge your own bias—how might your systems exclude, rather than include?
Identify practical entry-points for transformation using Dr Wilson’s Eight Inclusion Needs.
Reflect: How will you show up differently to spark genuine inclusion in your space?
Be ready to rethink, realign, and truly ignite inclusion—because the ripple starts with you.
#InclusionBites #WorkplaceEquity #InclusiveCulture #Belonging #BehaviouralScience #ChangeLeadership #OrganisationalDevelopment #DiversityAndInclusion #DEI #TransformWorkplaces
Listen to more bold conversations: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
For guest insights or to get involved: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
10 Question Quiz
The Science of Workplace Equity – Quiz
Based solely on the host’s contributions from “The Inclusion Bites Podcast” – Episode 159
1. According to Joanne Lockwood, what is her primary mission regarding change?
A) Changing society as a whole
B) Changing herself as a catalyst for wider influence
C) Transforming government policy
D) Training all managers in unconscious bias
2. Joanne likens organisational culture to what personal concept during her introduction?
A) A pension you transfer from job to job
B) A secret recipe passed down through generations
C) An employee handbook
D) Family traditions
3. When speaking about workplace inclusion, which of the following best describes Joanne’s view on 'belonging'?
A) It means simply fitting in with others
B) It is about being embraced for your authentic self
C) It is only relevant when working remotely
D) It requires abandoning personal values
4. How does Joanne suggest organisations should approach retention in inclusion efforts?
A) By focusing solely on diverse recruitment
B) By beginning with retention and ensuring an inclusive culture
C) By increasing benefits and salaries
D) By creating more management positions
5. What metaphor does Joanne use to describe privilege and exclusion in social structures?
A) Office hierarchy
B) Peasants and castles
C) Sports teams and their fans
D) Navigating a maze
6. Which author does Joanne mention as influencing her belief in people's inherent goodness?
A) Simon Sinek
B) Rutger Bregman
C) Brené Brown
D) Kimberlé Crenshaw
7. How does Joanne recommend making change happen in the 'castle and peasants' analogy?
A) By storming the castle with anger
B) By lowering the drawbridge and seeking conversations
C) By replacing the occupants with new ones
D) By isolating the castle further
8. What is Joanne’s position on changing people's beliefs through one-off training?
A) It is highly effective
B) It cannot be done and shouldn’t be attempted
C) It depends on the trainer’s ability
D) It takes less than an hour
9. Which approach does Joanne advocate for achieving lasting inclusion?
A) Working only with senior leaders
B) Finding influence with those close to the centre and expanding from there
C) Focussing strictly on policy documents
D) Implementing strict uniform codes
10. Regarding online engagement, what does Joanne claim about polarising audiences?
A) It should always be avoided
B) It is vital to have an audience that both loves and dislikes you
C) It doesn't matter how people feel about your message
D) Only positive engagement is useful
Answer Key with Rationale
1. B – Joanne states that her greatest impact is in changing herself and being the best she can be, using her example to influence others (“I know all I know is I can change me…hopefully between us, we can influence by another person”).
2. A – She jokingly debates organisational culture as something she wants to be able to “take…like my pension…from place to place to place.”
3. B – She draws a distinction between “fitting in” and “being embraced for who you are,” indicating belonging is embracing authenticity, not mere conformity.
4. B – Joanne explicitly highlights starting “with retention in mind,” sorting culture before increasing recruitment for better inclusion outcomes.
5. B – She introduces a metaphor of “people in their castle” and “peasants,” using it to explain privilege and exclusion dynamics.
6. B – Joanne references Rutger Bregman and his books “Utopia for Realists” and “Humankind,” mentioning how much she resonates with his viewpoint of innate human goodness.
7. B – She states the need for “lowering the drawbridge” and opening up conversations rather than confrontation, advocating dialogue over attack.
8. B – Joanne makes clear that beliefs, especially deeply held ones, cannot be trained out of someone in a brief session nor should such an effort be the focus (“you can't put me at 50 years old into a room for one hour and train my beliefs out of me…”).
9. B – She points out that influencing “slightly left or right of centre” is practical, since one cannot reach the extremes, but may expand inclusion by working stepwise out from the centre.
10. B – Joanne espouses the “Marmite approach,” encouraging polarisation so you attract those who love your message and avoid wasting energy on those who don’t.
Summary Paragraph
Joanne Lockwood, host of "The Inclusion Bites Podcast", frames workplace equity as fundamentally rooted in personal transformation—emphasising that the most powerful lever for change begins with oneself. She elucidates culture as portable, likening it to a pension, and champions an approach to inclusion based on authentic belonging rather than enforced conformity. For meaningful equity, she insists organisations must build inclusion by ensuring a healthy internal culture first, prioritising retention over mere recruitment. Through her vivid castle and peasants metaphor, Joanne illustrates how dialogue and open conversation—symbolised by lowering the drawbridge—are essential to bridging privilege and driving progress. Drawing inspiration from Rutger Bregman’s optimistic view of humanity, she is sceptical about the value of one-off training to change entrenched beliefs, advocating instead for stepwise influence from the centre outwards. Joanne's approach to engagement is unapologetically polarising; she values building a following rooted in resonance and authenticity over bland universal appeal, demonstrating that true inclusion is as much about who is drawn in as who is left unmoved.
Rhyme Scheme and Rhythm Podcast Poetry
Title:
The Science of Workplace Equity
In offices vast, where cultures blend,
We dream of spaces that transcend—
Not boxes built where we must “fit”,
But rooms where each may truly sit.
For culture’s not a gift to give—
It’s something we each bring and live.
Through personal four-square metres drawn,
Our influence carries, dusk to dawn.
Not managed down from distant heights
Nor forced as if our birthright’s right;
Instead, it’s built, behaved, and known
In daily acts and seeds we’ve sown.
Systems shape the way we act:
A process tweaked, an old contract,
Rewarding ways that let us see
Inclusion thrive in company.
Let’s not just start with who we hire—
Retention first must light the fire.
What good to draw fresh faces near
If nothing’s changed from yesteryear?
Don’t seek to mould the core belief
Or fix the mind with dogma brief.
Set structures fair where all belong—
In practice here, inclusion’s strong.
No single label tells our tale,
Nor fits us all within its scale—
Neurodiverse, a parent’s pain,
Grief and gender, loss and gain.
We all have needs for voice and place,
For safety, purpose, time and space.
For dignity, for being seen,
For difference valued, not demeaned.
When politics paints every fight
And trolls arise from left or right,
Recall the method, calm the storm:
With empathy, new bonds are formed.
So ripple on, let kindness grow,
Embrace fresh views, and learn to show
That cultures blend and hearts unite
When we build belonging, day and night.
For more bold truths and lessons wise,
Share the word and subscribe—
Together let’s transform and rise.
With thanks to Dr. Liz Wilson for a fascinating podcast episode
Key Learnings
Key Learning & Takeaway from the Episode:
The central insight from “The Science of Workplace Equity” is that meaningful and sustainable workplace inclusion and equity are not achieved by simply “changing people’s minds” or focusing narrowly on diversity recruitment. Instead, genuine transformation is driven by embedding inclusion into systemic processes, organisational architectures, and everyday behaviours—shaping culture through intentional design, not accidental happenstance. Dr. Liz Wilson’s evidence-based framework emphasises the importance of system-first interventions, behaviourally anchored frameworks, and a whole-person lens, reminding us that true inclusion benefits everyone, not just those typically labelled as underrepresented.
Point #1: Inclusion Requires More Than Good Intentions
Most organisations believe they are “good” and want to be inclusive, but intentions alone don’t change entrenched behaviours. Lasting equity stems from aligning daily actions, processes, and workplace systems with inclusive values, rather than expecting individuals to constantly adapt or “fit in.”
Point #2: Systems Shape Behaviour, Not the Other Way Round
Attempting to change beliefs through training is ineffective and can prompt resistance. By contrast, adjusting organisational systems—such as recruitment criteria, project workflows, and feedback mechanisms—to “require” inclusive actions results in those behaviours becoming the cultural norm over time, as illustrated by Dr. Wilson’s use of behavioural science.
Point #3: Intersectionality and the Eight Inclusion Needs
One-size-fits-all programmes (“women’s leadership”, “BAME initiatives”, etc.) can be reductive. People carry multiple, intersecting identities—neurodiversity, disability, parenthood, race, sexuality, and more. Dr. Wilson’s eight inclusion needs framework enables organisations to address individuals holistically, regardless of societal labels, and is proven effective across global, legal, and cultural norms.
Point #4: Start with Retention, Not Recruitment
Jumping straight to diversifying talent pipelines can be counterproductive if workplace systems are still exclusionary. Organisations must “clean the tank” by focusing on retention—ensuring the environment is inclusive and equitable—before attracting new talent, thereby enabling everyone to thrive rather than merely survive or exit.
These takeaways underscore that workplace equity is a science, not guesswork, and requires intentional, systemic change fuelled by data, research, and a commitment to everyone’s wellbeing.
Book Outline
Certainly! Below is a robust, publisher-level book outline derived solely from the guest’s contributions in the podcast “The Science of Workplace Equity” (Inclusion Bites Podcast, Episode 159). This outline is shaped to provide a compelling, practical book for leaders, DEI professionals, and those interested in organisational change, with suggested visual aids, interactive elements, and supplementary depth for each section.
Book Title Suggestions
The Science of Workplace Equity: Building Inclusive Cultures Through Behavioural Change
Making Inclusion Work: The Eight Human Needs That Transform Organisations
Beyond Tick-Box Diversity: Scientific Pathways to Workplace Equity
From Theory to Practice: Engineering Real Change in Inclusive Workplaces
Book Outline
Introduction: From Adversity to Action
The personal journey: Transforming adversity into a mission for workplace equity and inclusion
The rationale for a scientific approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI)
Overview of the book’s aims and structure
Chapter One: Rethinking Workplace Culture
Rethinking organisational culture as lived experience, not corporate statements
“You carry your organisational culture with you, like a four-square-metre zone of influence.”
Why culture is local: The primacy of team and manager over corporate ‘values’
The myth of universal values alignment
Example: Consulting in diverse organisations—minimal true alignment with personal values
Suggested Visual Aid: Diagram of concentric influence zones (self, team, organisation)
Reflective Exercise: Define your own ‘four-square-metre culture’—what do you carry into work?
Chapter Two: The Limits of Behaviour Change in Inclusion
The distinction between beliefs, behaviours, and values in cultural transformation
“You cannot and should not try to change people’s values to create innovation and creativity.”
Why focusing on visible behaviours, not beliefs, unlocks sustainable change
Systemic versus individual change—leveraging behavioural economics for inclusion
Analogy: The Monopoly board and systemic nudges
Suggested Visual Aid: Flowchart mapping behaviours, systems, and culture evolution
Action Step: Audit your workplace for moments where systems nudge (or fail to nudge) inclusive behaviours
Chapter Three: Systemic Design for Inclusion
Moving beyond recruitment: Inclusion must be designed into every organisational system
The paradox of increasing ‘diversity’ without systemic readiness—retention as the first strategy
“If all you do is bring diverse people into the room, you give them another opportunity for a [negative] experience.”
The importance of embedding inclusion before talent acquisition
Example: The ongoing failure of ‘diversity hiring’ without systemic inclusion
Suggested Visual Aid: Flow of inclusion interventions across employee lifecycle (onboarding to retention)
Interactive Element: Checklist—Is your organisation ‘retention ready’ for diversity?
Chapter Four: The Activist Trap—Why Change Management Fails
The behavioural science of resistance: Why activist approaches provoke pushback
“If you tell someone everything they’ve done is wrong and they must do it your way, they’ll stick their fingers up at you.”
Understanding WIFM (‘What’s in it for Me?’): The key to engagement
Navigating emotion and lived experience versus systemic strategy
Rhetorical Question: How do we disarm resistance and foster allyship?
Interactive Element: Write your own “WIFM” statement for inclusion in your work context
Chapter Five: The Eight Inclusion Needs—A Universal Framework
Critique of label-driven and siloed DEI programmes (e.g., ‘women’s leadership’, ‘LGBTQ+ initiatives’)
“If all you do is focus on one label, people cannot see their whole selves.”
Introduction to the Eight Inclusion Needs—what they are, how they work across all structures and geographies (including restrictive contexts)
Research foundation: PhD insights and global pilot studies
Real-Life Example: Testing the framework in countries where queerness or minority status is criminalised
Suggested Visual Aid: Table introducing the Eight Inclusion Needs, with international application notes
Interactive Element: Self-assessment—Which of the Eight Inclusion Needs do you feel are met at work?
Chapter Six: Intersectionality in Practice
Understanding intersectionality as more than identity categories—approaching humans as multifaceted selves
Personal anecdotes: Living with neurodiversity, disability, and grief
Realisation for individuals and teams: “There is more to me than just one label”
Application in policy, team, and customer experience design
Suggested Visual Aid: Venn diagrams showing overlapping identities and needs
Reflective Exercise: Map your intersections—What complex factors shape your experiences of inclusion?
Chapter Seven: The Politics of Inclusion—Navigating the Culture Wars
How ‘DEI’ and ‘woke’ get weaponised: The US and global context
The impact of political environments on inclusion initiatives—case studies in the US and Australia
The risk of making inclusion about a zero-sum game and the castle analogy
Methodologies for disarming opposition and reframing for universal benefit
Example: Using ‘personal similarity’ and disclosure to foster empathy among majorities
Suggested Visual Aid: The ‘castle and peasants’ model (privilege, threat perception, and bridging the gap)
Interactive Element: Scenario—role play reframing inclusion for a sceptical audience
Chapter Eight: Institutionalising Change—Systems, Rewards, and Resistance
How small process changes (like buffet food order) shift collective outcomes—behavioural economics in practice
Making inclusion “the easiest option, not the afterthought”
The importance of open-access frameworks for equity change
Countering resistance: Naming and addressing trolls and workplace antagonists
Example: Calling out misalignment between public values and personal behaviour
Suggested Visual Aid: Case study—before-and-after outcomes when systems reward inclusion
Action Step: Identify an existing process and redesign it for inclusive outcomes
Chapter Nine: Lessons from Loss and Lived Experience
The role of adversity as fuel for mission
Personal story: Navigating grief, neurodiversity, mental health, and accompanying stigma
Reframing ‘labels’ as tools for understanding and resilience
The importance of self-compassion and support networks (family, work peers)
Suggested Visual Aid: Timeline of adversity and turning points leading to mission
Reflective Exercise: Narrative therapy—invite readers to analyse and write about their lived challenges
Chapter Ten: Scaling Impact—From Teams to Societies
Case studies in global inclusion: Australia, New Zealand, the US, Asia
Adapting frameworks for local context, legality, and cultural sensitivity
Comments on the universal applicability of the Eight Inclusion Needs
Strategies for enabling broader, structural impact—government, education, and law
Interactive Element: Plan a pilot application of the Eight Inclusion Needs in your own team or organisation
Suggested Visual Aid: Map showing global reach and adaptability of inclusion practice
Conclusion: A Call to Collective Action
Recap: The difference between performative and systemic change
The rationale for science and empathy as dual engines of progress
Final reflection: “If everyone has inclusion needs, everyone should benefit.”
Call to Action: Identify one action you will take to build equity in your sphere of influence
Resources: Open-access inclusion frameworks, recommended further reading, and professional communities
Appendices
A: The Eight Inclusion Needs: Definitions and Diagnostic Tools
B: Sample Inclusion Checklists and Audit Templates
C: Further Reading and Research Summaries
Chapter Summaries
Chapter 1: Argues that true culture is portable and lived at team/individual level, challenging monolithic corporate narratives.
Chapter 2: Articulates why focusing on practical behaviours over values/beliefs is crucial for sustainable transformation.
Chapter 3: Provides a roadmap for embedding inclusion into all organisational systems, cautioning against the pitfalls of superficial diversity hiring.
Chapter 4: Explores why emotional, activist strategies provoke backlash, advocating for science-based engagement.
Chapter 5: Introduces the universal Eight Inclusion Needs and their applicability across cultures, including in restrictive regimes.
Chapter 6: Demonstrates intersectionality as lived reality, sharing practical examples and tools for holistic inclusion.
Chapter 7: Analyses the political push-and-pull impacting inclusion and offers tools for navigating resistance.
Chapter 8: Delivers actionable frameworks for making inclusion systemic, measurable, and rewarding—plus handling trolls and naysayers.
Chapter 9: Shares deeply human insights from adversity, showing how lived experience strengthens inclusive leadership.
Chapter 10: Offers guidance on scaling frameworks for truly global, multi-sectoral impact.
Points for Further Refinement & Review
Solicit feedback from practitioners, activists, and behavioural scientists on clarity and depth.
Pilot selected frameworks/exercises with real teams for refinement.
Cross-reference with open-access materials to maintain practical value and citation integrity.
This outline ensures the essence of the guest’s insights is captured in a reader-friendly, practical, and actionable structure, primed both for supplementary research integration and for further development with illustrative, reflective, and participatory elements.
Maxims to live by…
Maxims for Advancing Workplace Equity and Inclusion
Lead with Empathy and Humanity
Recognise that everyone is trying to do their best. Assume goodwill, both in individuals and institutions, and remember that systemic issues may dilute good intentions.Carry Your Culture with You
You are both a bearer and a creator of culture. Influence your immediate environment and align your actions with your values, no matter where you work.Value Behaviour Over Mere Words
Culture is defined not by slogans but by daily behaviours and actions. Align what is said with what is done.Don’t Force Values—Align Behaviours
Seek alignment of behaviours rather than expecting everyone to share identical beliefs and values. True diversity flourishes when actions are inclusive, not merely the rhetoric.Systemic Change Starts with Architecture, Not Individuals
To create lasting equity, build inclusive systems and processes. Shape environments that naturally foster desired inclusive behaviours, regardless of individual beliefs.Retention Before Recruitment
Before diversifying your workforce, ensure your environment is truly inclusive. Otherwise, new talent enters only to exit quickly.Focus on Team Culture
The culture that most strongly affects people is the one closest to them—their team. Empower managers and team leads to create inclusive microcultures.Unpack the ‘What’s In It For Me’
Everyone seeks belonging and inclusion. Articulate the benefits clearly, showing that inclusive environments help all, not just select groups.See the Whole Person—Honour Intersectionality
Acknowledge people’s multiple identities. Don’t reduce individuals to single labels—every person brings a tapestry of experience and needs.Change Requires More Than Training
One cannot ‘train out’ beliefs or unconscious biases in a single session. True change emerges from adjusted systems, ongoing education, and deliberate practice.Challenge the Zero-Sum Game Fallacy
Equity is not about loss for the privileged but shared gain for all. More equality and inclusion uplifts the entire workplace.Meet People Where They Are—Start from the Centre
Progress comes by engaging those just left or right of centre. Influence grows by finding common ground, not by shouting from the extremes.Disarm Through Respect, Not Aggression
Create safety and dialogue by disarming defensiveness, not attacking. Transformation follows conversation, not confrontation.Be Transparent About Lived Experience
Share your story with honesty—doing so fosters trust and reveals the diversity within all of us. Vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness.Reward and Reinforce the Right Behaviours
Shape culture by incentivising inclusive actions. Normalise inclusion so it is as routine as any other valued organisational behaviour.Find your Anchor in Adversity
Transform personal challenges into purpose and wider mission. Individual adversity can fuel collective progress.Keep Learning and Embrace New Perspectives
Stay open to learning and unlearning. Approach inclusion work as an evolving journey, not a finite task.Amplify Voices—Don’t Dominate the Narrative
Listen deeply before speaking. Give space for stories and experiences beyond your own.Use Systems Thinking for Sustainable Change
Apply frameworks and processes—such as the eight universal inclusion needs—to embed inclusion at every organisational level.Act Boldly, but Thoughtfully
Be courageous in disrupting the status quo, but anchor your actions in evidence, reflection, and respectful engagement.
Live by these maxims, and you’ll foster environments where everyone can thrive—a truly inclusive and equitable workplace.
Extended YouTube Description
The Science of Workplace Equity | Dr. Liz Wilson & Joanne Lockwood | Inclusion Bites Podcast
Welcome to another transformative episode of Inclusion Bites! In Episode 159, host Joanne Lockwood (she/her) of SEE Change Happen sits down with Dr. Liz Wilson – renowned behavioural scientist and strategic inclusion expert – to dig deep into the science of workplace equity. This enlightening discussion is essential viewing for HR professionals, D&I champions, business leaders, and anyone eager to create inclusive workplaces that truly allow everyone to thrive.
Timestamps
00:00 – Introduction: The Mission of Inclusion Bites
01:14 – Meet Dr. Liz Wilson: Turning Adversity into Global Inclusion
03:45 – Culture: Organisational vs. Personal Values
06:30 – Behaviours, Beliefs & Building True Inclusion
09:54 – Systems, Architectures & The Science of Behavioural Change
13:34 – Why DEI Efforts Often Fail & How to Do Better
18:39 – Intersectionality: Addressing Whole-Person Inclusion
24:31 – Overcoming Resistance and The ‘Castle’ Metaphor
34:29 – Inclusion in Australia, the US, and Globally
41:12 – Tackling Online Hate: Personal Stories & Strategies
50:16 – Dr. Wilson’s Lived Experience: ADHD, Adversity, and Resilience
1:03:05 – How to Connect & Free Access to The Inclusion Needs Framework
1:05:14 – Wrap Up and Call to Action
Video Description
What does it actually take to create workplace equity that’s real, practical, and rooted in science?
In this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Dr. Liz Wilson, who shares her journey from overcoming personal adversity to becoming a global leader in behavioural science, organisational culture, and true workplace inclusion.
They break down:
The role of behaviours versus beliefs in shaping workplace culture, and why focusing on systems and behaviours (rather than forcing values) is key to sustainable equity.
The science behind driving inclusive action using frameworks informed by behavioural economics – including practical examples and insights backed by Dr. Wilson’s own PhD research.
Why many DEI/EDI strategies fail: common pitfalls such as overemphasis on recruitment, not prioritising retention, and miscommunications that breed resistance.
How intersectionality moves beyond ‘label-based’ inclusion, addressing the complex, whole-person needs that make every employee unique.
Strategies for overcoming resistance, engaging those in positions of privilege, and creating dialogue that bridges divides.
Global perspectives: Inclusion across Australia, the US, and beyond, including lived experiences of systemic barriers, neurodiversity, and tackling online hate.
Practical tools: How to leverage Dr. Wilson’s free, open-access Inclusion Needs Framework to build more equitable organisations—starting today.
If you’re ready to disrupt the status quo, drive true change, and make inclusion everyone’s business, you’ll find actionable insights and inspiration throughout this episode.
How Will This Episode Benefit You?
Equip yourself with research-driven tactics to drive organisational change.
Discover methods to embed inclusion into your systems and day-to-day processes.
Learn how to manage resistance, engage sceptics, and create a culture where belonging is more than a buzzword.
Gain practical frameworks you can immediately apply in your team, department, or enterprise.
Ready to drive real workplace equity?
👉 Subscribe for more leading-edge insights from change-makers in inclusion: [SUBSCRIBE BUTTON]
👉 Visit our website for more resources and episode archives: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
👉 Share your thoughts or join the conversation: Email Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Don’t miss:
Watch another episode on driving psychological safety in the workplace
Learn more about the Inclusion Needs Framework here (free resource)
Join the community of listeners dedicated to meaningful, actionable inclusion!
Relevant Hashtags:
#WorkplaceEquity #InclusionBites #DiversityandInclusion #BehaviouralScience #OrganisationalCulture #DEI #EquityAndBelonging #StrategicInclusion #Intersectionality #PsychologicalSafety #TeamCulture #InclusiveLeadership
Whether you’re seeking new strategies to build better workplaces or want to deepen your understanding of equity and inclusion science, this episode will leave you empowered to act. Press play, and ignite the spark of change.
Substack Post
The Architecture of Equity: Shifting Behaviour, Not Beliefs
If you’ve ever found yourself wrestling with the seemingly unyielding challenge of building genuine equity in the workplace, you’re not alone. Time and again, I’m asked: “Why do so many DEI initiatives flounder—despite all the policies, training sessions, and good intentions?” Is it really possible to create a culture where everyone belongs—and, crucially, thrives?
This week on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, I dive into these thorny questions with Dr Liz Wilson, an accomplished behavioural scientist and renowned strategic inclusion expert. In our conversation, we journey to the root of workplace equity—unpacking why so many efforts falter, and how a robust, scientific approach to inclusion can transform the fabric of our organisations.
Building Workplace Equity: Science, Systems, and Small Steps
Episode 159, “The Science of Workplace Equity”, is a timely exploration for anyone grappling with the complexity of cultural and systemic transformation in the workplace. Dr Liz Wilson brings not only academic rigour—a PhD in behavioural science and organisational culture—but also a global practitioner’s lens, having guided countless organisations through culture change across sectors and continents.
Together, we unravel key issues relevant to:
HR professionals and DEI leads navigating the pressure to demonstrate impact while wrestling with resistance.
Talent and Recruitment partners keen to avoid the revolving door effect—hiring for diversity, but then failing to retain or advance talent.
L&D and organisational development specialists seeking practical strategies for embedding equity into the very bones of organisational life.
Dr Wilson’s central proposition is deceptively simple: True cultural change is never a matter of “teaching beliefs out of people.” Instead, it’s about constructing environments where inclusive behaviours are the norm—delivered through systems, structures, and processes that nudge everyone, whatever their personal values, towards equity and inclusion.
From Theory to Practice: Highlights from Dr Liz Wilson
I’m continually inspired by Liz’s approach, which asserts that every one of us carries our own “four square metres” of culture wherever we go. Rather than force-fitting everyone into a singular corporate mould, the goal is to shape an environment where diverse values can breathe, so long as the resulting behaviours align with shared principles.
Some of the most stimulating themes from our discussion include:
The myth of a monolithic organisational culture (spoiler: it lives and dies at team level).
The importance of process design—the “architecture” of equity—over one-off anti-bias training or headline-hungry hiring drives.
The risk of DEI being reduced to tick-box recruitment quotas, missing the deeper need to remake the experience beyond onboarding.
The eight universal inclusion needs identified by Liz’s research, which cut across identity categories and legal boundaries—including geographies where ‘inclusion’ itself is a loaded or dangerous term.
Practical Wisdom for Catalysing Change
Here are the actionable insights I took from our conversation that I believe every leader and advocate should keep firmly in their toolkit:
Build Equity into the System, Not Just the Story
Lip service and glossy values statements won’t shift the dial. As Liz reminds us, it’s systems and what she calls “architectures” that drive behaviour. Make inclusion a prerequisite—bake it into decision-making, project cycles, and talent processes. If getting past “go” in your organisation requires concrete inclusive actions, those actions will become habits, and habits will weave your cultural DNA.Start with Retention, Not Just Representation
Welcoming diverse talent is only half the journey. If the underlying culture remains unchanged, new joiners rapidly become ex-employees. Focus first on retention: create an environment where all staff can thrive, and the rest will follow.Don’t Police Beliefs—Align on Behaviours
It’s neither possible nor desirable to wring difference out of people’s beliefs and values; that would stifle the very diversity we’re trying to harness. Instead, define and reinforce shared behavioural expectations aligned with your inclusion principles. Clarity and consistency here are what actually move the needle.Design for Intersectionality and Whole-Person Inclusion
Beware the trap of “label-centric” approaches—women’s programmes, neurodiversity initiatives, LGBTQ+ networks in silos. Instead, ask: What do all people need to thrive? Liz’s eight inclusion needs framework is adaptable across cultures and identities—look for ways to meet people as whole human beings, not just bundles of labels.Engineer a ‘What’s In It for Me?’ for Everyone
For change to take root, every individual—especially those currently ‘in the castle’—must see how inclusion benefits them, not just ‘others’. When everyone’s needs and agency are affirmed, a sense of belonging is far more likely to take hold.
A Window Into the Conversation
Curious to experience a snapshot of what’s in store? Here’s a one-minute audiogram that teases out some of the most thought-provoking moments from my dialogue with Liz. It’s a sneak peek you won’t want to miss.
[Click here to watch the audiogram]
Watch as we delve into the reality of system-led change, why mandates must evolve into genuine culture-shifts, and how a “puppy training” approach to reward and reinforcement can trump old-school compliance models.
Take the Next Step Towards Equity
If you’re ready to roll your sleeves up and rethink how your organisation approaches equity and inclusion, listen to the full episode for a practical, no-nonsense take that balances research, real-world examples, and lived experience.
👉 Listen to the full episode here
This is a discussion for everyone who is ready to move DEI from the “nice to have” pile to the “how we do things here” standard. Feel free to share the episode with leaders, peers, and colleagues—let’s spark a wider conversation and begin shifting those everyday habits together.
What Will You Change Tomorrow?
As you reflect on Liz’s insights and our conversation, ask yourself: If inclusion really does start with systems and behaviour, not just belief—what is one process, ritual, or habit in your sphere of influence that you could adjust this week to smooth the path for belonging?
After all, culture is not built in boardrooms but in the daily choices we make. How will you help lower the drawbridge of the castle, so that every “peasant”—to borrow our tongue-in-cheek metaphor—can bring their best to the table?
Let’s make equity more than a good intention—let’s embed it into the architecture of our organisations.
Stay Connected
Let’s keep this important conversation going. Here are the best ways to get involved:
YouTube – For more episode highlights and expert interviews.
TikTok – Where we share bite-sized wisdom and community stories.
LinkedIn – Connect with me to join regular dialogue and access fresh resources.
Website – Discover articles, speaking engagements, and resources to help your organisation advance inclusion.
If you’d like to chat about how I can support your leadership team, design an inclusive playbook, or facilitate powerful learning, just drop me a line at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Together, let’s move beyond mere words and start building the equitable workplaces of tomorrow.
What small shift will you make today to build a culture where everyone belongs?
Until next time,
Joanne Lockwood
Host, Inclusion Bites Podcast
The Inclusive Culture Expert at SEE Change Happen
[Ready to listen? Tune in here: https://url.seech.uk/ibs159]
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