Foreign.
Something went wrong!
Hang in there while we get back on track
Equity by Design
The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Equity by Design
CW
Speaker
Celeste Warren
JL
Speaker
Joanne Lockwood
Joanne Lockwood hosts Celeste Warren, a DEI strategist with over thirty years of experience, discussing equity by design. Celeste shares how her father's pioneering role as the first black principal shaped her passion for inclusion, highlighting resilience, trust-building, and the burden minorities carry to prove their worth.
✨ Magic Chat
Don't have time for the full episode?
Ask anything about this conversation — get answers in seconds, sourced from the transcript.
Try asking
Featured moments
Highlights
“The Heart of Inclusion "Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within.”
“Making Equity Actionable Quote: "My superpower is my ability to connect heart and and strategy, turning complex ideas about equity and inclusion into clear, actionable models that leaders can implement today.”
“Life Before Social Media "And I think growing up, we had the opportunity to think things through, at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, think about the consequences of your actions.”
“Respectful Conversations "But you have to be able to have productive conversations about those different perspectives in a way that respects other people's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm other people in a way that doesn't belittle other people in a way that doesn't say that because you believe that or you feel that you're less than and you don't count and you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything.”
“the first thing that's going through their head is that you're lowering the standard of performance or quality of a role that that person is gone into.”
Timeline
How it unfolded
Read along
Full transcript
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show.
So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 212 with the title Equity by Design. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Celeste Warren. Celeste is a diversity, equity and inclusion strategist, an author, speaker and the founder of Celeste Warren Consulting, with over three decades of experience helping organisations embed equity and build inclusive cultures that drive meaningful and sustainable outcomes. When I asked Celeste to describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability to connect heart and and strategy, turning complex ideas about equity and inclusion into clear, actionable models that leaders can implement today. Hello, Celeste, welcome to the show.
Thank you. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm glad to be here, absolute pleasure.
We're having a quick chit chat earlier in the. In the green room. And whereabouts in the world are you now?
I am in, outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's about two and a half hours from New York City and on the east coast of the United States and it is absolutely freezing here. We've had a very, very cold snap that is a little bit unusual for this part of the country but, but we're hanging in there, trying to stay warm. But I'm originally from, from Pennsylvania, the state of Pennsylvania, but western Pennsylvania, which is a small steel mill town. And my father was the first black teacher, black principal in that area. And, and so, you know, my, I guess we call it origin storey or backstory. I grew up in a household. There were five kids, mom and dad, and as I said, my dad was the first black teacher, first black principal in that area.
And every day that he would come home, my mom would say at the dinner table, you know, hey honey, how was your day? And that would start a conversation that really was ingrained in me as a child. I all the way through my adult journey and he would talk about the challenges that he faced being the first black man, you know, in this area. And, you know, what he had to go through, some of the obstacles, some of the barriers, and then he didn't just sit there at the dinner table and complain. He then would say, and here's what I did about it. Because he wanted to teach us, his children, that the colour of your skin, your gender, how you identify is. It may cause you problems throughout life, challenges throughout life, but don't let that stop you from being able to achieve whatever it is that you desire to achieve. And that was sort of. I got a front row seat to that my entire childhood and teenage years.
And that just was, if you can imagine, just ingrained in me throughout my formative years. That's sort of what's grounded me into the work that I am doing today.
Wow, that's a fascinating backstory in origin. It's. I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I think you've had what sounds like a really good foundational upbringing around some of the good principles of what it is in the world. And I sometimes wonder whether our modern generation are being brought up with that level of resilience and robustness to be able to challenge and stand up. And maybe it's our social media world, maybe it's the way we're bringing people up now. We seem to be very quick to react and weaponize our particular characteristic rather than actually say, I've got this now, how can I make.
Yeah, yeah, you know, well, we, you know, coming up for those of us that are on that other side of 50, we didn't have social media, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have, you know, email, we didn't have the technology that could connect people like they do today, like my children do today. And also, too, is that sort of, you know, you talked about that reaction, being able to, I mean, just reacting to stuff immediately without sort of thinking about it and that. And sometimes, you know, you get that keyboard courage and you put stuff out there without really filtering it and thinking through it. And I think growing up, we had the opportunity to think things through, at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, think about the consequences of your actions. And that sort of just sort of just stayed with us. And we didn't have a choice because there was nothing sort of quick in the moment that from a technology standpoint that would, that would put things out there across the globe, you know, like the Internet does now. And like social media, you might react in the moment, but the only person that would see it is people that are around four or five people, maybe that are around you. So it was a very different time than it is right now.
You know, there's good and there's also, you know, opportunities as well. But I just think that growing up the way I did, when I did, where I did, with those circumstances, really helped me from a foundational standpoint, because it really taught me, okay, you are a black woman in the world today, and there are going to be challenges, there are going to be obstacles. You know, he didn't paint the world as rosy, you know, but he also said, I don't ever want you to use that as an excuse as to why you can't achieve throughout your life. That's kind of the lesson that he. That he taught us by the conversation that he would have at the dinner table. And I thought that was really, really important. I remember one story that he told me that just has always stuck with me. I was in.
I was home for college, and he was telling me a story about how when he. After he got his master's degree in education and he. He got his master's degree in English, and so he was hired at the school, but they didn't hire him as an English teacher. They hired him as a gym teacher in the gymnasium, and they didn't have a gymnasium. That's the sad thing about it. And so he had to teach the students in the parking lot of the school. And so he's teaching the kids, you know, physical education and all of that. And.
And when he would be out there, the. The kids that he was teaching, the parents of those children would come and park their cars in the parking lot and watch him as he was teaching these kids, and he's telling me the story. And I was kind of like getting angry, like, well, what did they think you were going to do to their children? And he said, well, I don't know. He said, you know, I was a black teacher. They. They weren't used to black teachers. And so they. I said, did you get angry? Did, like, what did you do? And he said, no, I didn't get angry.
I just taught the kids. I did my job. And then he said, you know what happened? One by one, those cars went away till it got to a point where no parents felt a need to come and park their cars and watch me teach their kids. They. They then, they finally built a gymnasium. And then eventually he ended up an opening occurred in the English department and he was able to teach English and then, you know, his career throughout administration as well. That story kind of stuck with me because he overcame the adversity of those parents not trusting him to teach their kids by just doing his job and doing it well until they eventually, probably the kids probably went home and told their parents, like, why are you coming and parking there and watching, you know, Mr. Phillips, that's, that's crazy.
He's a nice teacher, he's very good. And we're learning a lot from him about physical education and how to stay healthy and etcetera, etcetera. And so he had, in that process, he's built the trust of those students and then ultimately built the trust of the parents as well. And that story has stuck with me for decades. And it's been a lesson around how I go about doing what I do and have done throughout my career.
In a way, that's building your own affinity bias, isn't it? Because if we don't know people, they're in and out group, we don't trust them, we don't want to communicate with them, we don't engage with them, we don't value them. But as soon as you start to become comfortable and know someone's story, no one's capability, then they become part of your in group and then you can start to trust and engage. It sounds like that's what happened in that scenario where at first this person was an Other. They're on the outside, there's no trust. And it took that pattern of this person seems to be, okay, I'll trust them, you trust them, we're all trusting them. No, there's no story here, we can move on. And it's building that affinity bias, if you like, proactively to bring that person into your circle of trust, isn't it?
That's exactly it. And he didn't do anything differently. He didn't, you know, because I can, you know, you can imagine someone with a different temperament might have walked up to those parents in the car and banged on the window. What are you doing? And why are you watching me? And that, that definitely was not the temperament of my dad, but he just did his job and, and instilled trust and with, with everyone. And you're exact, you're exactly right to the point when he passed away in 20, about. Well, it's been close to eight years now. When he passed away, they lined the streets when we were going from the, the church to the cemetery. They Lined the streets, the students lined the streets in front of the school to say goodbye to him.
And he had been retired from the school system for many, many years at that point. And they actually named, they renamed the elementary school after him. And so, yeah, and so it's, it's, you know, when you talk about legacy, when you talk about that, that the characteristics and the behaviours and the mindset of someone who, in his own way, he was bringing about change, he was bringing about societal change, organisational change throughout his career, because he was paving the way for others to be able to come in after him and do what he did in that. In that school district and in, in the community as well.
I'm just trying to phrase this into, into the thinking that it seems such a. It's a burden on people who are from marginalised, minority, voiceless backgrounds. However you want to describe individuals, it's incumbent upon them to behave in a way that makes them acceptable to others in order so they can get the change acted. Whereas if you were from a majority background, you would just be you and not have to think about all this, not carry the weight of responsibility or whiteness on your shoulders. You just are. Whereas as soon as you've got a characteristic, you then represent. And that's a real burden that minority people face. Is it? Is it?
Oh, yeah, it was hugely that way for decades, well, probably centuries, but. But it was very much that was sort of the weight that we carried. And, you know, you fill in the blank of marginalised group, whatever identity that. That was the weight. I think now what we're trying to teach individuals is be you don't try to carry that weight because that, that's unfair. You know, one of the things that I know, my father knew, my grandfather knew and grandmother and mother was that was unfair for us to have to carry that weight throughout our lives. You know, life is. Can be hard enough without having to have to carry that weight of.
You have to make sure you're doing, especially in this day and age, at least in the United States, Black women are really, you know, it's just very challenging right now with the, the job situation being what it is. Black women are the ones that are losing the most as far as jobs in the United States. And there's that, there's that tightrope that you're walking regardless of your identity, if you're in a minority group. But it's tightrope of, well, I want to be respected for who I am. I can't act in a certain way because Then I will fall into the stereotype of that they have for people who identify as I do. And so I need to make sure I'm, like, walking this thin line. And it's very exhausting. It's so exhausting.
And so, you know, taking the time to say, this is me, this is who I am, and, you know, not in a way that's disrespectful to yourself or to others, but just basically saying, this is what I bring to the table. This is the value that I bring. This is who I am. And I bring a value that will benefit, whether it be an organisation or a team or whatever the entity is. But I bring a value because of who I am. And we need to kind of flip the switch a bit. I have a T shirt that I just got. I saw it.
Where did I see it? I think I saw it on Instagram and I was like, I got to have that. And it has be you. The world will adjust. And I thought, oh, how nice is that? That? And it's just. That's the lesson that I like to teach young, young people when I talk to students at universities and my own children who are, you know, in their 20s, is be you. Because if you try to be somebody else, especially in an organisation, you know, you come to a company and you. You sort of act like you think they want you to act, that is exhausting. You can't do that for a sustained period of time.
It's just not sustainable. And so make sure that you are yourself because you bring a value to whatever entity, organisation, group, team that you're. That you're entering in. And if you didn't, then they wouldn't have brought you in. And so make sure that you always understand that and hold your head up high and contribute in the best way that you know how to contribute.
You're so right about this being yourself. And I think we talk a lot these days about authenticity, don't we? The. The fact that there's a fine line between being authentic and being unfiltered, isn't there? You see, you need to be accountable for your authenticity as well.
Oh, absolutely. You know, I. When I talk with folks, I was 10 years as a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer with a Fortune 50 company, and one of the things that I would get challenged sometimes by folks is like, well, I want to be my true self. I want to be my authentic self. And I said, it's, yes, we want you to be your authentic self because you bring value to the organisation, but understand that you are in an organisation. And that organisation, the foundations of that organisation, is treating people with dignity and respect. And if the true you isn't someone who can treat people with dignity and respect, well, that you needs to go somewhere else, because that's not foundationally the culture that we, that we nurture within the organisation. And so there's a difference between, I like to say there's a difference between business casual wear and come as you are.
And business casual is, you know, still, still professional, but it, but it's, it's, it's comfortable for you. So you can think, you know, in the workplace and be productive, but come as you are. As you walk out of bed and you come work with flip flops and shorts on. That's not the same thing. And so it's exactly what you said about the filter. You have a responsibility and accountability to, yes, speak your mind, but do it in a way that you still maintain dignity and respect of your colleagues.
One of the challenges I see in the world at the moment is the DEI pushback or the DEI must die type type sort of rhetoric that's out there, that what seems to be happening is the people who are the majority, the incumbent, the monoculture, whatever it may be, are now saying, well, hang on a minute, people keep telling me I can't do this, I can't behave that way, I've got to behave in a certain way and why can't I be authentic? Why can't I be myself? Why can't I have my views? Everybody I know has similar views to me. I'm not in a minority. And what we, what we seem to be doing here is that in the situation where we're almost competing with whose views are palatable in our organisations, in society, how do we rationalise those two perspectives? Where does the power and the culture lie there?
Well, I think that, first of all, people have different perspectives and different views. That's the world that we live in and we've always lived in that world. Everybody has different perspectives, different ideas, different beliefs, and that's fine. But you have to be able to have productive conversations about those different perspectives in a way that respects other people's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm other people in a way that doesn't belittle other people in a way that doesn't say that because you believe that or you feel that you're less than and you don't count and you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything. And that's where I think sometimes people Sort of lose perspective because you and I can have a great discussion about something and we can decide, agree to disagree and walk away and still be colleagues and associates. And that's the piece that I think that we've forgotten. And another thing too is, you know, with diversity, equity, inclusion, they just, they have looked at this as something that it isn't. So diversity is simply differences in people.
Those you can see and those you can't see. Organisations are not run by robots, most of them, but robots were created by humans. So the human element is in every organisation, every ecosystem. And so that's diversity. The differences in all those, in all those people. Inclusion is, you have to surround them with this culture that all of those differences can be leveraged in a way that gets you to this collective purpose. And if we were talking about an organisation, that collective purpose would be the mission or the vision of that organisation. But equity then is, okay, how do I take all of these people with all these different skills, capabilities, identities, backgrounds, life experiences, how do I take all of these people with all these differences and get them to this collective purpose? Well, you do that through acts of equity.
You meet people where they are, understand all of those differences that are embodied in that person. What are some of the obstacles and barriers that get in the way from them being able to aspire to whatever it is that they aspire to get to. And then once you understand that, then you build the steps to get them to that collective purpose. And some of those steps are going to be such that they're going to benefit 80% of the people. And then some of those steps have to be sort of tailored a bit so you can meet a person where they are and get them to that collective purpose. And that's kind of how I pragmatically try to explain diversity, equity, inclusion. It's not about preferential treatment for one group over another. It's simply about giving people what it is they need to have access to opportunities.
And that's where the, the, the rub gets. Because if one person's getting something and another person's not getting it, then it's like, oh, okay, you're getting something and I'm not. And it's, it's in the spirit of getting to this access and these opportunities and everybody doesn't come from the same place. And so you got to look at people individually as individuals and help them to get to where it is that, that, that they, they want to get to. And I think that's, you know, that's one thing and then another Thing, Joanne, is when, when people say, you know, DEI, the first thing that's going through their head is that you're lowering the standard of performance or quality of a role that that person is gone into. You know, I always, I used to get in conversations if I'm sitting in a room and there's the recruiter and then there's the hiring manager, and the recruiter would inevitably say something like, well, I want to make sure that you have a qual. A diverse candidate slate. So I'm bringing you candidates from all different walks of life to choose from for your role.
And then the hiring manager might say something like, well, I want to make sure that they're, you know, they're qualified for the role. And I would politely stop the conversation there and say to the manager, well, why did you feel a need to say that? After the recruiter said, I want to make sure that I'm bringing you a slate of candidates that are from all different walks of life, all different identities, et cetera. And they would, you know, him and haw and sort of not really answer the question. And I said, because, first of all, would you. After you sat. Because, you know, usually this is halfway through the meeting. It's like after you sat through this meeting and you've given the recruiter the skills, the capabilities, the years of experience, the type of capabilities and competencies that you need that they need to have years of experience that they need to have for the role, we've had this, this conversation. And then you say, well, I want to make sure that the person's qualified after they said that.
And so your, your assumption and your bias is because they said they wanted, they're going to bring in diverse candidates that they're, they're inferior and they're. But they're or not qualified for the role that you have. That's an insult to the recruiter because their job is to bring you candidates for your role that meet the qualifications that you've outlined in your conversation. But the thing that you don't realise is those skills, those capabilities, those experiences, they can be embodied in all kinds of different identities. And a lot of times, depending on the, the, the hiring manager, I'll say, well, close your eyes. And I want you to envision the perfect candidate for your role. What, what do they look like? And they, and they stop. Because then it's like, okay, well, they're picturing this white male, 40 to 60 years old, and it's like that's when it starts to dawn on them that, okay, okay, I get what you're saying.
I get what you're saying, Celeste. And it's like you need to understand that, you know, number one, you're insulting the recruiter. You're trying to say that they don't know how to do their job. Number two, the skills and capabilities and experiences that you identified. Look. Can be embodied in people that have all different types of identities. And three, the perfect person doesn't necessarily look the way you do. And having that conversation with them really helps.
It's a teaching moment, it's a learning moment. But. But it's necessary because otherwise they'll continue doing that in other roles that they have. And then other people are watching them too, you know, maybe watching them within earshot of the whole. The whole.
I hear that all the time. This is belief that hiring for diversity means hiring for second best because you're hiring somebody who is perceived to be less competent because they're diverse.
Yes.
And that is exactly what you're describing there. And there's this almost like this. If it wasn't for this diversity hiring, the white guy would get it. Now we're having to say, Hank, why can't the white guy have it? He must be the best person for the job. This incumbency still plays out in many, many organisations. And what you're describing there, and you're right, it's how do we get this across and how do we. How do we get people to see past those default demographics and say. Because often when you're developing the job spec and doing your recruitment marketing, as you say, you've got this avatar of the perfect candidate in your head, and that's often based on the demographic of the person who's thinking about it at the time.
It's, how do we reevaluate the ideal candidate where we're valuing some of those lived experience traits and that you maybe don't get with another characteristic. And you almost like saying, well, actually, if we're doing some balanced metrics here, empathy, compassion, lived, experienceable to communities, whatever it may be, is actually more important than pure technical skill, because actually, I need some personality in there as well. So we've got to try and rebalance the job spec, haven't we?
Yes. Yeah. And you know, the example that I like to use is we've all seen that illustration by Deloitte where there's three individuals and they're all. In the first illustration, three individuals and they're all standing on one rock and they're. They're in front of the fence the person on the right cannot see over the fence with the one rock. The person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence. Then you go, and they all have one rock.
So hey, everything is good, right? But still the two people to the right can't see over the fence. And so then you get to the second illustration. The person on the right has been given two additional rocks, the person in the middle has been given one additional rock, and the person on the left still has the one rock because they were still able to see over the fence. Those rocks in my analogy that I use with that illustration, those rocks are the acts of equity that I was talking about to give them opportunity to be able to have the same access that the person has on their left. And the fence in my analogy are all of those, I call them the isms, those things that didn't crop up overnight. And it's going to take longer term strategy to sort of pull them apart from institutions, from organisations, from society like isms, like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, et cetera. And so we have to be doing both in order to, to get to that third illustration where the rocks are gone and the fence is gone. But what is happening, the acts of equity are causing disruption because the person who was standing on one rock in the first illustration and still standing on one rock in the second, but they're looking to their right and they're saying, well, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocks and I still have one.
That's not fair, that's not equitable. And the challenge is because they don't see the fence that's in front of them because they've always been able to see over it. They don't know how that fence manifests itself and behaviours to his colleagues on the right. They don't know about marginalisation, they don't know about bias, they don't know about the obstacles and the barriers that get in the way that are embedded into that, that the isms in that fence and so those of us that are doing the work of diversity, equity, inclusion, creating more inclusive cultures and belonging, we have to put the acts of equity in place, put the rocks in place. So, so we can still still have. Those are sort of the short term midterm strategies, we have to tear the fence down, that's the longer term strategy. And then we also have to have a conversation with that person standing on one rock and say, okay, here's some things that you need to Understand, you've always been able to see over that fence. That fence is there.
And here's how it manifests itself in behaviour. Give them things to read and articles to read or books to read or training to take or, you know, give them thing resources to educate themselves and then have a conversation with them and help them to understand how that fence, first of all, that's there, second of all, they have always been able to see over it for whatever number of reasons. And then third, how. What it manifests itself to his colleagues on the right and why it's necessary for those acts of equity while we're tearing down the fence. And then lastly, we don't want you to just intellectualize it, we want you to be active allies. We want you to get in the boat, we want you to grab an oar and we want you to row with us and help us to get up the river so we can get to that third illustration where the rocks are not needed, the fence is torn down and then everybody can see the beautiful mountains and even that person that could see over the fence the whole time with a fence torn down, their aperture has been widened and broadened because now they're able to see not just the top, but they're able to see other things that maybe that fence was obstructing and they didn't even realise it. And that's why, you know, I say everybody wins when we get it right. Equity.
You know, right now we're at a stage where we're putting the rocks of equity in place and we're trying to tear down the fence and that individual. Those conversations still need to be had with the individual standing on the one rock, as painful as they can be sometimes. But we're not going to get to that third illustration if we're not all working together. It's. It's just going to. It's going to be very, very difficult.
Yeah. Was it JFK said a rising tide floats all boats equally or whatever. So what we're trying to do here is we're not trying to float your boat higher or lower than my boat. We're just trying to raise the tide so we're all floating and we're all off the rock, if you like. Yeah.
And that's the reason why, you know, the myth about preferential treatment, because the individual, all they see is the rocks. The fact that they have three, they have two and they only. They only have one and they don't see the fence, they don't see the larger ecosystem of what's happening.
You know, it's all very well and I just play with your analogy and your, your, your model here. So we've achieved justice, which is the final box. There's no fence, we don't need the rocks. We can all see, we can all, we can all participate fairly neatly in society. But part of the challenge at that point there is the internalisation, the ingrained mindset of somebody who has been brought up in a marginalised community, experienced marginalisation, discrimination themselves. How do we re. Engage them? Because I think sometimes we look at the mindset of people. Whereas people who are used to succeeding and having everything their own way have a certain mindset.
But people who are used to being knocked back go into situations where less belief, less confidence, less support network, all these things. So it's all very well removing some of the barriers, but we've also got to help enable people. There's even more equity. We've got to give them, give them self belief, isn't it?
Oh yeah, there, there's a, it's about mindset shift, a shift in mindset shift in behaviours. And you talk about a tightrope having conversations with individuals that it, so that individual that was standing on one rock when they grew up, just like I grew up around the table with what my conversation with my parents, they grew up around the table with certain conversations. And so you're telling them that, okay, if we want, want an inclusive society, you have to forget about or rewire what mom and dad and Auntie and Granddad told you coming up. That's not an easy conversation by any means, but it's one that's necessary in order for us to get to that third illustration. And, and, and on the, on the other side too, to your point, of the marginalised group that has always been those behaviours have manifested to them of the obstacles and the barriers getting in their way and that's the way their life has been and their journey has been. Unfortunately, it's the same thing as, you know, domestic violence and the woman who, her husband's been beating her for years. And then one day he says, well, I'm not going to do it anymore. And all of a sudden she's just supposed to flip and be this different person when every single time he raises his hand she flinches.
And for years afterwards. So all of this mindset and behaviour change needs to occur as well for everyone, for us to really, truly benefit from that third illustration. Because once we tear the fence down, once we, the rocks are, and we don't need the rocks we simultaneously need to be working on ourselves.
Yeah. So the people who needed the rocks, they need to believe they don't need the rocks anymore. And that's half the battle as well.
Trust. It's all about trust. It's all about trust. And that's a hard thing to overcome when there's been centuries and centuries of behaviour that has been against you and your. And your.
Have you ever come across the story or the anecdote? I don't know how true it is, but apparently someone did some research and they put five monkeys in a cage with a ladder and some bananas at the top of the ladder. And the monkeys used to climb the ladder, eat the bananas, and then every day they put more bananas on the ladder. Then one day they started. Every time a monkey climbed the cage, they started squirting the monkey who's getting the banana with water. So the monkey learned, if I got the ladder, grab the banana, I'm going to get wet. So it stopped doing it. Then the other thing they started doing was if a monkey did go up the ladder, instead of squirting the monkey who was up the ladder, they squirted the monkeys who weren't on the ladder. So when the monkey came down, the monkeys at the bottom who were being squirted then beat up the monkey.
Oh, wow.
The ladder to reinforce it. And then as this experiment, they swapped the monkeys out and put new monkeys in and the new monkeys learned the behaviour of the. Of the group.
Yeah.
And eventually, after a year, there was no monkeys in the cage who had ever been squirted with water or ever had a problem. So they, they'd always attack a monkey who went up the ladder to grab a banana, because that's what they did. And that's kind of the belief system you end up reinforcing, as you say, for generations and generations of oppression or marginalisation. This is the way it is. I've internalised this. I can't succeed, I won't succeed. You're not going to like me, you're going to reject me. This person's always going to get the job, whereas the person who is in that incumbent never been squirted with water.
Getting bananas is going to be gung ho going, I see no barriers. And that's often why they succeed more, because they're not constrained by their history.
Yeah, there's a. There is. It is. All of this is not going to be something that is going to happen like that. And the cornerstone of trust is this hard. It is hard for all the reasons that that we talked about the experiment that you just talked about, all of it. You know, it's, it's sort of in an organisation, you come into an organisation and someone trained you. That person who's trained you has been with that organisation for 20 years.
The person who trained them 20 years prior to that had been with the organisation for 20 years. And, and they're thinking, well, why do you, why do we do it that way? Because that's the way that we've always done it and they're training them the same way when that might be antiquated, an antiquated way of doing it. Especially when you think about the technology that has evolved over 20 or something years. And so, you know, that's, that's one of the, it's a, it's another example of how organisational culture becomes so ingrained. It's beyond the HR policies and procedures and the rules and the this and the that, but it's, it's the people and how they behave with the unspoken rules and the behaviours and it's so funny, but what I've seen from a generational standpoint, what I've seen with young people this generation Z and you know, to a degree with Y too, as they were coming into the workforce, but they asked the question, well, why do you do it like that? Well, why? That doesn't seem like, well, do you know that you can download this app and that can be done in two seconds? Right? So the reason why I have hope, one of the reasons why I have hope is as I look and I talk with this generation, this new generation, they courage to be able to say and ask questions, why? Why? Why? Like a five year old toddler, why? Well, why? Well, why? Why? And then when you can't answer the question, then you have to think to yourself, well, why do we do this? And as, as the new generations come into the workplaces, they have this perspective that is so refreshing because they're not afraid to ask the question why, which is, which is good because that helps us to sort of break that cycle of doing it, because that's the way that we've always done it and be able to think about new. Because we're only going to survive if we, if we nurture innovation and creativity, that's the only way that, that societies survive and thrive. Innovation, creativity. And if we stomp on that, then that's going to be very, very problematic for our future.
Any future, any country, any organisation.
You said earlier a statistic around in the US and probably other parts of the World around, the number of layoffs affecting black women are disproportionately higher. What's the hypothesis around that? What's the why? You know, it can't just be because they're black women. It must be a circumstance or an inequity or something in the social constructs of society that because they're black women, they're therefore more likely. But it's not because. Just because they're black women, is it?
Yeah, you know, so data would say that there's been a lot of layoffs in the United States, especially in the federal government, in those type roles, which a large percentage of folks that work in the federal government are black women, women of colour in roles across different industries. The roles that seem to be being diminished are roles in. That are inhabited and the incumbents are largely black women or women of colour. So there's. The data would tell you that if you talk with some of these black women, they will tell you that also in some cases too, some are just opting to, to just drop out because of the kind of. What we were talking about earlier about that, that the feeling of, you know, I. I feel marginalised. It's impacting my, my psyche.
It's impacting my health. It's not worth it. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna. I need to just stop and I need to leave and do something else or leave this environment. So there's also that aspect as well. Many the, the articles and the things that I've read sort of talk about the data and then they talk about how some of these women have been feeling that have opted to, to. To just make a decision that this isn't the place for me and I need to leave for the reasons I talked about.
But one of the things. So there's the. There's all of those things I think wrapped up together. But one of these things, one of the things that I will tell you that I believe is true is what we're seeing with black women. It's like the canary in the coal mine, because it's the tip of the iceberg. What you see happening to black women is just a. For of a foretaste of what's going to happen in the economy and generally to everybody. And it's sort of, like I said, a canary in a coal mine type type thinking.
And I've seen articles, I've seen articles and heard, you know, different news talk shows and things like that where they talk about that and they talk about it from a historical perspective, but that's saying that, you know, what happens to the minorities in the country is sort of a pre telling of the way the country's going to go and it'll be happening to everybody. And we're starting to see, at least in the United States, starting to see that in other countries as well. Because back in 2024-2024-2025-2024, there were a lot, there was like overwhelmingly large amount of countries that were having elections. I think it was like in the 80s and for whatever reason it was just a large number in one year. And there those, those elections, the outcomes of those elections, there was a large percentage of them where they hired in government officials that were more conservative. And so you see that, that there's this pendulum that swings, right? And whenever there is a rise in social activism like we saw in 2020, then all of a sudden the pendulum starts swinging to conservatism. And that's kind of what we, what we saw with all of the elections in 2024, what we've seen in 2025 in many, many, many countries. And so now in, you know, history says that there's going to be a pendulum and it's going to swing back again too in future years.
So that it's just, it's just sort of this historical anomaly that, that just happens throughout the world. And so, you know, that's why I think that we have to pay attention to what's happening to women of colour and start saying, okay, how do we prevent this from happening holistically, not just to them and what do we need to put in place to help black women, but what do we need to put in place to help overall as well? Because this is something that it's leading us down a path that isn't good for this particular country.
Who's next then? Is it, is it more around the low paid workers? Is what we're losing hospitality we're losing. She's a government workforce. And the symptom is that here, that in this particular case black women, women of colour have filled those vacancies and never progressed to higher echelons or more skilled work. We're looking at it and AI and all these kind of technologies here where traditionally that's not where black women and women of colour have gravitated in their career trajectory.
Yeah, there's definitely. That's absolutely true, Joanne. And whenever I'm talking with especially university students and different groups, I always tell folks from a career standpoint, understand your discipline and what's needed not today, but five and Ten years from today, where is your discipline, your industry going? What are some of the changes that are going to be happening? And understand that and then how does that translate to skills and capabilities that are needed and you go after those skills and capabilities because you know, think about it, there, there are jobs that exist today that five and 10 years ago did not exist at all.
You know, social media, marketing, Uber driver, you know, they just didn't exist, did they?
Influencers.
Influencers, yeah. YouTube influencers. Yeah, they didn't exist.
They just didn't exist. And so the world is just changing and so you have to try to stay ahead of it and that's really, really critical. And you're right. AI, Artificial Intelligence, you know the coin coined the phrase is AI going to take jobs? And it's like, no, it's not going to take jobs, all jobs it's going to take. It's going to replace people who don't understand AI and how to leverage it in their jobs. But you're absolutely right, there are certain industries and certain disciplines that people of colour, women of colour don't migrate to, but that's not because they don't have the intelligence to be able to migrate to them. There are a lot of different barriers in the STEM fields that, that get in the way of people of colour, especially women of colour being able to, to get STEM field, to get into STEM field that start early in education.
Yeah, I was going to say the issue here is going back to someone who's, when they're five or six years old or even back to before the parents conceived them. Yes, to try and educate the parents on how to inject aspiration into their future offspring and how to nurture them to want to succeed and remove those psychological self imposed barriers of limiting mindset that many people grow up with. It's almost like we're going to start that education process now for future parents to bring to their future children.
And in the, in the education systems the teachers, you know that right, wrong or indifferent, they have their own biases. And when Sally raises her hand versus Joe raising their hand to answer a question, you know, there are all kinds of studies around early bias in early education that starts in, you know, boys being encouraged for math and girls being encouraged for other, you know, thing English or whatever. There's all kinds of studies around that have been around for decades. But it starts, you're absolutely right, it starts with the parents, it starts with the teachers. It starts early, early on in the systems to be able to rectify those gaps that you see, in these different disciplines as adults, so we use the.
Phrase DEI is broken. We see the rhetoric going on by our political leaders around the world, not just in one particular country. How do we rebrand dei, diversity, equity and inclusion, so that it's more understandable? Because I think it's become kind of a toxic phrase, it's become kind of a misunderstood, a misquoted motives have been misquoted and misunderstood. How should we relaunch the essence of what DEI is in a way that the people who only have one rock can understand?
Well, I am not a proponent of rebranding it. I'm more of a proponent of helping people to understand it in a way that makes sense to them. And like I said, meeting them where they are because, you know, the way that I look, the way that I in this, again, this is the world according to Celeste. But the way I look at it is you are. If you're offended because I'm a black woman and you say to me, well, I don't want to call you black woman, can I call you something else? And my answer is no, I'm a black woman, I'm proud of being a black woman. How I identify. And no, you can't call me something else. Put another label on me.
You need to understand me for who I am and what I bring to the table. And that's kind of how I feel about diversity, equity and inclusion. I don't like using the acronym DEI because it has been bastardised, the acronym. But when I say the words diversity, when I say differences in people, when I say the word inclusion and inclusive society, where everyone feels a sense of belonging and feels valued for who they are, however they identify. And when I use the word equity, which basically is Management 101, Leadership 101, Business 101, meeting people where they are understanding those differences and then helping them to remove obstacles and barriers that are getting in the way for them being able to have access to opportunities that everybody is has a right to have. When I explain it to them in those very simple, pragmatic terms, then the light bulbs go off. And I think at that point it helps people to understand what it is, what diversity, equity, inclusion truly is. And so, you know, I just think it's just confusing people and you try to call it something else.
Oh, and by the way, this too shall pass. Because, you know, a lot of this is this anti diversity equity inclusion rhetoric. A lot of it is, again, it's part of that, that pendulum, if you will, that keeps swinging Back and forth and I say, you know, maintain, help people understand, help people to see the benefit in it. Help people to see that when we do it right, everybody is going to win and it'll be be something that can be done for everyone.
Absolutely, Celeste, absolutely. You're right. And we shouldn't have to apologise and change the names of things to make them more palatable to somebody else. We even have to over explain. But you're right, we're in a world now where we've got some challenges and DEI is as important as it ever has been and will continue to be. We need to work on that. So how could people get a hold of you? We've had a fantastic hour and a bit together. I'm sure other people want to engage and have a chat.
So how do people get ahold of you?
Well, you can reach me on my website, crwdiversity.com or you can reach me on LinkedIn. Celeste Warren, she her. Or you can reach me on Instagram, crwdiversity. And they're all interesting ways to stay engaged with me. And I say interesting because I'm a little bit less, I'm more engaging on Instagram and LinkedIn. And you know, when you put your contact information, your email and in my website, then we can engage there as well. So please, please. And also too, the book, the Truth About Equity, what it really Is, what it isn't and why everyone wins when you get it right, is on Amazon as well.
So if you want to continue the conversation and educate yourself a little bit like we talked about, pick up the book and, and I'd love to hear what you think about it.
Well, I'm going to dive over to Amazon right now and take a look, see if I can find it. Is it, is it just on hard copy or is there a Kindle or is there a audible?
There's audible as well.
Audible as well. Ah, my favourite. So when I take our puppy for a walk, I can, I can listen to you in my ears as I'm going for the walk. That's what I do.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to head over there and spend one of my credits on it. So let's do that. So let's. Thank you so much.
Thank you. I've enjoyed talking with you.
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude, gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all.
Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
Also generated
More from this recording
Episode Category
Primary Category: Cultural Diversity
Secondary Category: Overcoming Adversity
🔖 Titles
Designing Equity: How Acts of Inclusion Tear Down Barriers and Build Belonging
From Affinity Bias to True Equity: Insights on Building Inclusive Cultures
Turning Lived Experience into Strategy: Equity by Design in Modern Organisations
Equity Explained: Dismantling Myths and Creating Opportunities for Every Individual
Unpacking DEI Pushback and Creating Justice Through Pragmatic Inclusion Models
Marginalisation, Trust, and the Power of Mindset Shift in Equitable Workplaces
Navigating Authenticity and Accountability: Redefining Professionalism for Lasting Inclusion
Meeting People Where They Are: The Real Meaning of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
The Rocks and the Fence: Visualising Equity Beyond Preferential Treatment Narratives
Bridging Generational Perspectives: Why Innovation Requires Courage, Equity, and Honest Conversation
A Subtitle - A Single Sentence describing this episode
Celeste Warren illuminates the complexities of equity by design, exploring barriers, bias, and the urgent need for authentic inclusion—advocating a paradigm where individual differences are not only recognised, but leveraged for collective organisational success.
Episode Tags
Equity by Design, Inclusive Leadership, Overcoming Barriers, Diverse Workplaces, Acts of Equity, Authenticity at Work, Marginalised Voices, Generational Change, Breaking Bias, Societal Transformation
Episode Summary with Intro, Key Points and a Takeaway
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood invites Celeste Warren to explore the concept of “Equity by Design” and its transformative power in embedding inclusion and belonging within organisations. Celeste draws from her wealth of experience in diversity, equity, and inclusion, reflecting on her formative years as the daughter of the first Black teacher and principal in her Pennsylvania hometown. Together, Joanne and Celeste dissect the societal burden placed on marginalised groups and challenge the persistent misconception that equitable practices lower standards. They examine affinity bias, share stories of resilience, and discuss how acts of equity must be tailored to meet individual needs, ultimately fostering an environment where all can thrive.
Celeste Warren is a respected strategist, author, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting, bringing over three decades of experience in building inclusive cultures. Formerly a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer at a Fortune 50 company, Celeste’s superpower is her capacity to connect strategic models with human experiences, making complex concepts approachable and actionable for leaders. Her pragmatic approach is rooted in the lessons learned during her upbringing, as she witnessed first-hand both the struggles and triumphs of her father's journey against adversity in education. Celeste’s insights blend practical expertise with heart, striving to cultivate workplaces where authenticity and dignity are fundamental, regardless of background.
Throughout their conversation, Joanne and Celeste address the ongoing pushback against diversity and inclusion, emphasising the necessity of meaningful dialogue and education to challenge ingrained biases. They discuss the persistent myths around diversity hiring and explain, through relatable analogies, how equity is not about preferential treatment but about breaking down unseen barriers. The episode offers practical guidance for leaders and change-makers, highlighting the importance of aligning opportunity with lived experience and supporting individuals to believe in themselves as those barriers are dismantled.
The key takeaway from this episode is that achieving true equity is a collective journey, requiring both acts of equity and the dismantling of historic obstacles. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their role in driving change and to recognise that when equity is practised effectively, everyone wins. This conversation is essential listening for anyone committed to inclusion, as it imparts wisdom, challenge, and inspiration for building genuinely equitable workplaces.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 The speaker's father shared daily lessons at dinner on overcoming racial barriers, emphasising resilience and action to achieve one's goals, regardless of challenges.
04:40 Life before social media and instant technology encouraged more thoughtful, deliberate communication and actions.
09:06 Affinity bias is reduced by knowing and trusting others, bringing them into one's in-group.
12:39 Black women in the US face disproportionate job losses and must navigate exhausting stereotypes and societal expectations.
15:14 Authenticity at work is valued, but must align with an organisation's culture of dignity and respect.
20:25 Fair opportunities require recognising individual needs without lowering standards, while embracing diverse candidate selection.
21:33 The hiring manager questioned candidate qualifications despite prior discussions outlining requirements, prompting clarification on their reasoning.
25:45 Equity ensures fair access by addressing systemic barriers ("isms") with tailored support, though it may cause perceived inequality during the process.
27:55 Educate, engage, and act as allies to dismantle barriers, achieve equity, and ensure everyone benefits.
35:02 Organisational culture can stagnate due to outdated practices, but younger generations challenge norms by asking "why," driving innovation and progress.
39:52 The text discusses a historical pattern where social activism leads to a conservative shift in politics, evidenced by global elections in 2024-2025, with a pendulum effect expected to reverse in future years.
43:11 AI won't replace jobs but people who fail to adapt. Barriers, especially for women of colour, persist in STEM fields, hindering access from an early stage.
46:37 Diversity, equity, and inclusion mean recognising differences, fostering belonging, valuing individuals, and removing barriers for equal opportunities.
50:01 Joanne Lockwood thanks listeners for supporting inclusion, encourages subscribing to Inclusion Bites, sharing, and engaging via email to amplify voices and drive change.
50:52 Promoting inclusion, episode by episode.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Lessons in Overcoming Adversity
04:40 Life Before Social Media
09:06 "Building Proactive Affinity Bias"
12:39 Black Women Navigating Workplace Challenges
15:14 Authenticity vs Organisational Respect
20:25 Equity, Opportunity, and Diversity Misconceptions
21:33 Challenging Bias in Hiring Practices
25:45 Equity, Access, and Removing Barriers
27:55 "Equity: Tearing Down Barriers"
35:02 "Questioning Tradition Fuels Innovation"
39:52 Global Political Pendulum Shift Trends
43:11 AI, Barriers, and STEM Diversity
46:37 Understanding True Diversity and Inclusion
50:01 "Inclusion Bites: Join Us"
50:52 "Fostering Inclusion, One Episode"
Custom LinkedIn Post
🎙️ 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗪𝗲𝗲𝗸 𝗼𝗻 𝗜𝗻𝗰𝗹𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗕𝗶𝘁𝗲𝘀: 𝗘𝗾𝘂𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗯𝘆 𝗗𝗲𝘀𝗶𝗴𝗻 🎙️
💬 Ever wondered why equity can’t just happen by chance? How do we deliberately design workplaces where nobody is left behind? Find the answer in this essential 60-second audiogram! 💬
This week, I’m joined by Celeste Warren, a renowned Diversity, Equity & Inclusion strategist, author, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting. She’s spent over three decades transforming organisations, making equity practical—not just aspirational.
Together, we explore:
🔑 𝘊𝘰𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘏𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘵 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘚𝘵𝘳𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘨𝘺 – Why the best inclusion work blends lived experience and tangible action.
🔑 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘙𝘰𝘤𝘬𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘌𝘲𝘶𝘪𝘵𝘺 – How acts of equity can break down invisible barriers and rebalance opportunity for all.
🔑 𝘉𝘦 𝘠𝘰𝘶, 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘞𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥 𝘞𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘈𝘥𝘫𝘶𝘴𝘵 – Embracing your authentic self, and why true belonging lifts us all.
Why Listen? "Inclusion is about understanding, and this episode is packed with insights to help you create more #PositivePeopleExperiences."
As the host of Inclusion Bites, I release episodes every week to inspire, educate, and challenge perspectives on inclusion and belonging. Dip into this short clip for your weekly spark—there’s plenty more where that came from.
What’s your take? 💭 Share your thoughts below 👇 or tell us how you’re driving equity where you work.
🎧 Catch the conversation and more at: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#PositivePeopleExperiences #SmileEngageEducate #InclusionBites #Podcasts #Shorts
#EquityByDesign #DEIStrategy #AuthenticityAtWork #InclusiveLeadership #BarrierBreakers
Don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, and share with your network. Let’s spark action—one bite at a time!
with SEE Change Happen, Celeste Warren
TikTok/Reels/Shorts Video Summary
Focus Keyword: Equity by Design
Video Title:
Equity by Design: Positive People Experiences through Culture Change | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags:
equity by design, culture change, positive people experiences, inclusion, diversity, belonging, Joanne Lockwood, Celeste Warren, inclusive leadership, workplace culture, DEI, equity in action, business transformation, inclusive workplaces, organisational change, psychological safety, social change, workplace inclusion, diversity champions, inclusion podcast, professional growth, allyship, leadership development, community building, change management
Killer Quote:
Killer Quote: "Be you. The world will adjust." – Celeste Warren
Hashtags:
#EquityByDesign, #CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #InclusionBitesPodcast, #Inclusion, #Belonging, #Diversity, #DEI, #InclusiveCulture, #WorkplaceInclusion, #Leadership, #PeopleFirst, #Podcast, #SeeChangeHappen, #Equity, #InclusionMatters, #Authenticity, #Trust, #ChangeMakers, #SocialImpact
Summary Description:
Dive into this empowering episode of Inclusion Bites as I explore “Equity by Design”—unpacking how true Culture Change creates Positive People Experiences that empower everyone to belong and thrive. Joined by Celeste Warren, a renowned strategist and advocate for inclusive workplaces, we unravel why equity is not about lowering standards, but about ensuring everyone gets the opportunity to excel. This conversation challenges the status quo and offers practical models you can implement today to spark genuine transformation in your organisation and community. If you’re driven by Positive People Experiences and real societal change, listen in for bold insights and actionable strategies.
Ready to rethink inclusion? Like, share, and bring Equity by Design into your world!
Outro:
Thank you for tuning in to Inclusion Bites. If you found this conversation inspiring, please like, subscribe, and share the episode with those who believe in Positive People Experiences and true Culture Change.
For more insight and resources, visit SEE Change Happen at https://seechangehappen.co.uk.
Catch the full episode and more at The Inclusion Bites Podcast.
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive – Joanne Lockwood
ℹ️ Introduction
On this episode of Inclusion Bites, titled "Equity by Design," Joanne Lockwood welcomes Celeste Warren, a renowned diversity, equity, and inclusion strategist, speaker, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting. With over three decades of experience shaping organisational culture, Celeste Warren brings compelling personal insight into what it means to embed equity from the inside out.
From sharing powerful anecdotes rooted in her own upbringing—having watched her father break barriers as the first Black principal in his region—to analysing contemporary challenges like DEI pushback and the changing workplace, Celeste Warren offers a clear, pragmatic framework for understanding diversity, inclusion, and equity. Together, Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren dissect the burdens marginalised individuals navigate, while also challenging us all to create cultures where everyone truly belongs and thrives.
This episode isn’t just about conversation; it’s a call to lean into courageous dialogue, rethink our assumptions, and champion change at every level. Whether you’re grappling with organisational transformation, or seeking a deeper human perspective on allyship and equity, this episode promises honest reflections and actionable wisdom to ignite your commitment to inclusion.
💬 Keywords
equity by design, diversity, equity and inclusion, inclusive cultures, belonging, marginalised groups, organisational change, affinity bias, trust, authenticity, resilience, workplace diversity, intersectionality, hiring bias, recruitment, unconscious bias, lived experience, leadership, allyship, systemic barriers, empowerment, identity, privilege, societal transformation, DIN backlash, adaptability, generational differences, career progression, mentoring, psychological safety, inclusion strategy, legacy
About this Episode
About The Episode:
In this episode, Celeste Warren joins to explore how intentional, equity-driven practices can dismantle structural barriers and foster authentic organisational inclusion. Drawing on her deep expertise in diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy, she shares pragmatic insights, lived experiences, and actionable frameworks for embedding equity by design. Listeners will gain a revitalised understanding of how meaningful change is forged through trust, allyship, and tailored equity interventions.
Today, we'll cover:
The distinction between diversity, inclusion, and equity, and why acts of equity are imperative for moving from access to belonging.
How lived experience and resilience shape approaches to challenging bias and driving sustainable DEI outcomes.
The consequences of affinity bias and strategies for transitioning individuals from "otherness" into trusted in-groups.
The invisible psychological tax of being from a marginalised group and how to foster environments that support authenticity without sacrificing respect or professionalism.
Reframing perceptions of DEI—from tokenism and preferential treatment to recognising equity as foundational to organisational success.
Practical methodologies for addressing systemic barriers, using analogy and storytelling to engage and educate those in positions of privilege.
The evolving landscape of workplace inclusion, considering current social and economic challenges, and why a mindset shift is essential for lasting change.
💡 Speaker bios
Joanne Lockwood is the passionate host and creator of Inclusion Bites, a podcast and safe space dedicated to bold conversations around inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. As a natural storyteller and thoughtful guide, Joanne invites listeners to connect and reflect as she uncovers hidden narratives and challenges the status quo. With a commitment to ensuring everyone not only belongs but thrives, Joanne inspires her audience to take meaningful action and be part of the ongoing conversation for change. Eager to welcome new voices, she encourages anyone to share insights or join the show, making Inclusion Bites a true community for those seeking to spark real impact.
💡 Speaker bios
Celeste Warren grew up in a small steel mill town in western Pennsylvania, where her father blazed a trail as the first Black teacher and principal in the area. The eldest of five children, Celeste credits her upbringing in a vibrant, hardworking household—anchored by her pioneering parents—with shaping her worldview. Now based outside Philadelphia, just a couple of hours from New York City, Celeste reflects on her journey from her family’s close-knit community to the larger world, drawing inspiration from her roots amid the region’s ever-changing seasons.
❇️ Key topics and bullets
Certainly! Here’s a comprehensive sequence of topics covered in this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, “Equity by Design”, with sub-topic details for each key theme:
1. Introduction to Inclusion Bites and Guest Welcome
Purpose and ethos of the podcast
Joanne Lockwood as the host and her role as an inclusion advocate
Introduction of Celeste Warren, her background, and her expertise
2. Celeste Warren’s Personal and Familial Backstory
Growing up in Pennsylvania in a Black family
Influence of her father—the first Black teacher and principal in the area
Dinner table conversations about facing and challenging discrimination
Ingraining resilience, perseverance, and problem-solving as life skills
3. Generational Reflections on Resilience and Social Change
Comparison of upbringing without social media vs. today’s digital landscape
Growth of “keyboard courage” in modern interactions
The impact of slower, more considered reactions in earlier generations
4. Lessons from Marginalisation and Building Trust
Celeste Warren’s father’s story: overcoming community suspicion as a Black teacher
The evolution from outsider to trusted leader within his school and community
Legacy: lasting impact, including a school named in his honour
5. The Extra Burden on Marginalised Groups
Discussion of “representation tax”: marginalised people’s responsibility to act as ambassadors for their communities
Navigating stereotypes, expectations, and respectability politics
The exhaustion of walking a “tightrope” to avoid negative stereotypes
6. Embracing Authenticity and the Limits Thereof
Advocacy for being one’s true self within professional expectations
The distinction between authenticity and unfiltered behaviour
The need for accountability and treating others with dignity and respect
7. Addressing Pushback Against Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI)
Rise of anti-DEI rhetoric and the perception of “DEI pushback”
Navigating majority discomfort and perspective clashes within organisations
Creating a culture of productive, respectful disagreement
8. Pragmatic Breakdown of DEI Concepts
Diversity as encompassing visible and invisible differences
Inclusion as the active leveraging of these differences for collective purpose
Equity as meeting individuals where they are to remove unique obstacles
Dispelling myths: DEI is not about preferential treatment or lowering standards
9. The Recruitment Paradigm and Unconscious Bias
The problematic assumption that diversity hiring equates to reduced quality
The importance of broadening the definition of the “ideal candidate”
Embedding empathy, lived experience, and community awareness into recruitment
10. The Equity Illustration: Rocks and Fences
Utilising analogy: rocks as acts of equity, fences as systemic barriers (“isms”)
The challenge of perceptions of fairness when not everyone sees systemic barriers
The necessity of both short-term supports and long-term systemic change
11. Mindsets and Internalised Limitations
Impact of generational and community narratives on self-belief and success
The psychological legacy of marginalisation and how it persists even as barriers are removed
12. The Role of Organisational Culture
How entrenched behaviours and “the way it’s always been done” hold back inclusion
The disruptive power of Gen Z and Millennials in questioning norms and championing change
The crucial link between creativity, innovation, and inclusive culture
13. Disproportionate Impact of Layoffs on Black Women
Data indicating higher rates of job loss among Black women, especially in the US
Structural issues leading to this, including occupational segregation and bias
The “canary in the coal mine” effect: what happens to marginalised groups often signals broader trends
14. Preparing for the Future: Skills, STEM, and Aspirations
The changing jobs landscape and the need for future-proof skills (e.g., AI, technology)
Early educational biases in STEM field access for women and people of colour
Parental and educational roles in fostering aspiration and breaking cycles
15. The DEI "Brand" and Effective Communication
Questioning whether renaming or rebranding DEI is the answer
The importance of clear, pragmatic communication to demystify DEI
Staying the course through cultural and political pushback—“this too shall pass”
16. Wrap-up and Call to Action
Reinforcement of the value of DEI for everyone, not just marginalised groups
How to contact Celeste Warren and access further resources (book, website, social channels)
Closing thoughts on fostering inclusion and the ongoing journey
This sequence reflects the full thematic journey of the episode, providing a comprehensive guide to the discussion’s depth and progression.
The Hook
Ever felt like you’re walking a tightrope—balancing who you truly are with who the world expects you to be? What if “success” isn’t about fitting in… but about standing out? Dive in for the mindset shift that makes authenticity not just possible, but PROFITABLE.
Are you tired of settling for “business as usual”—where barriers look invisible but feel unbreakable? Here’s the twist: Real change starts at your dinner table, not the boardroom… (Curious yet? Oh, the lessons no one ever teaches…)
Why do some people glide over obstacles while others wrestle with invisible fences? Imagine if the rules could be rewritten—and the gates swung wide open. This is how you ACTUALLY design equity, instead of just talking about it.
“Be you. The world will adjust.” Provocative—or dangerous advice? If you’ve ever worried that authenticity could cost you opportunities, wait until you see how flipping the script can unchain your potential + ignite collective ambition.
Ever questioned whether equality really means everyone gets the SAME break? Spoiler: True success isn’t about identical rocks—it’s about tearing down the fences, for good. Ready to see the world (and your own impact) with fresh eyes?
🎬 Reel script
Unlock the power of equity by design with fresh insight from Celeste Warren on Inclusion Bites. Dive into bold conversations about breaking barriers, challenging bias, and reimagining workplace inclusion so everyone thrives—no matter where they start. We’ll explore how trust, authenticity, and a culture of belonging transform not just leaders, but entire organisations. Ready to move past tick-box diversity and embrace true opportunity for all? Tune in now and ignite change with every action.
🗞️ Newsletter
Subject: Equity by Design: Building Lasting Inclusion – Key Lessons from Celeste Warren
Hello Inclusion Bites Community,
This week’s Inclusion Bites Podcast serves up one of our most compelling conversations yet. In Episode 212, “Equity by Design,” Joanne Lockwood sits down with none other than Celeste Warren—acclaimed DEI strategist, author, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting. If you missed it, you’re in for a masterclass in how inclusion truly comes to life when it’s intentionally woven into the organisational fabric.
What Shaped Celeste’s Vision?
Celeste Warren opens the episode by sharing powerful and moving memories of her father—the first Black teacher and principal in his area of Western Pennsylvania. Dinner-table stories of resilience in the face of prejudice left an indelible mark, teaching Celeste that “the colour of your skin, your gender, how you identify may cause you problems, but never let it stop you from achieving what you desire.” This foundational lesson became the bedrock of her work, illustrating that inclusion starts with lived experience and courage.
The Myth of Mere Representation
Throughout their conversation, Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren tackle the common misconception that hiring for diversity means lowering standards. Celeste Warren addresses this head-on, emphasising that diversity is simply the reality of difference, inclusion is the embrace of those differences, and equity means meeting each person where they are to remove barriers. The challenge, Celeste Warren notes, is helping those in positions of privilege recognise the “fence” others face—one they’ve perhaps never encountered.
Building Affinity, Trust, and Lasting Change
There’s an inspiring tale in this episode about how Celeste Warren’s father, despite being met with suspicion, quietly and consistently did his job—ultimately winning trust and changing minds. “Affinity bias isn’t overcome overnight,” reflects Joanne Lockwood, “but it can be rewired when we choose to engage and empathise.”
Equity Is Not Preferential Treatment
Celeste Warren is clear: equity isn’t about giving unearned advantages, but ensuring everyone has a fair opportunity to succeed. Using the familiar “fence” illustration, she explains why some need more support (more rocks) to see over obstacles that others have never faced. “Everyone wins when we get equity right,” she says; the aim is for a future where the barriers themselves come down.
A Time for Honest Dialogue, Not Euphemism
For those weary of DEI being weaponised as a buzzword, Celeste Warren advocates for reclaiming the language: “Don’t rebrand, educate. Meet people where they are. Inclusion and equity benefit everyone.” Dismantling systemic problems means facing tough conversations—and also nurturing hope, especially as younger generations ask “why?” and challenge the status quo.
Recommended Listening
If you haven’t yet, listen to Episode 212: Equity by Design. Share it with colleagues, friends, and those in your network who shape culture at work and beyond.
Get Involved
Like what you hear? Or perhaps you have a story or perspective to share? Email Joanne to join the conversation.
Resources and Next Steps
Connect with Celeste Warren via her website, LinkedIn, or Instagram.
Pick up her book The Truth About Equity—available on Amazon and Audible.
Catch up on past episodes or subscribe at seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
Let’s keep pushing for an equitable world—one bold conversation at a time.
Warm regards,
The Inclusion Bites Podcast Team
#InclusionBites #EquityByDesign #SeeChangeHappen
🧵 Tweet thread
🧵 How do we design equity so that everyone wins? Dive into wisdom from Celeste Warren & Joanne Lockwood on the Inclusion Bites Podcast 👇 #InclusionBites #EquityByDesign
1️⃣ Ever felt like you had to carry your entire community’s hopes on your shoulders? Celeste Warren recounts her father’s journey as the first Black teacher & principal—a legacy of resilience and action, not just words.
2️⃣ “Be you. The world will adjust.” This mantra isn’t just inspirational—it’s a pragmatic call for authenticity. But Celeste Warren reminds us: authenticity thrives when it’s paired with dignity and respect for others.
3️⃣ Let’s talk about bias in recruitment. Why does “diversity candidate” still trigger knee-jerk doubts about competence? Celeste Warren challenges hiring managers to confront their subconscious default—what does your “ideal candidate” REALLY look like?
4️⃣ Equity means meeting people where they are. Imagine a fence blocks your view: If you’ve always had the vantage point, you might not see what others are missing. Celeste Warren brilliantly uses rocks and fences to explain: equity isn’t about “extra”—it’s about enabling fair access.
5️⃣ The cost of not getting it right? Talented Black women are leaving the workforce or being pushed out. This isn’t just a demographics problem—it’s a canary in the coal mine for deeper societal flaws.
6️⃣ The solution isn't new jargon. Celeste Warren's view: Don’t rebrand DEI; explain it better. Diversity = difference. Inclusion = belonging. Equity = access. Everyone benefits when we get this right.
7️⃣ If we want real change:
Break down the barriers (the “fence”)
Give people what they actually need (the “rocks”)
Educate those with privilege to see the whole picture
8️⃣ So—are you just watching the world go by, or are you ready to roll up your sleeves and make equity by design?
Catch the full conversation & fuel your inclusion journey: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#DEI #Leadership #Inclusion #SocialChange
Guest's content for their marketing
Certainly! Here’s an article written for Celeste Warren to use for her own marketing, reflecting in her own voice on being a guest on the Inclusion Bites Podcast, and drawing from the actual transcript.
Stepping into Change: My Conversation on the Inclusion Bites Podcast
I recently had the pleasure of joining Joanne Lockwood on her thought-provoking show, Inclusion Bites—a podcast that has swiftly become a vibrant forum for transformational conversations around diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). The episode, entitled Equity by Design, gave me an incredible platform to share my journey, my philosophies, and the lessons I’ve gathered over three decades of work as an equity and inclusion strategist.
Rooted in Story: Why Equity Must Be Proactive
My appearance began with a reflection on my upbringing in Pennsylvania, where my father broke barriers as the first Black teacher and principal in our region. I recounted the profound dinner table conversations that shaped my ethos—not just to face adversity, but to ask, “What can I do about it?” This mindset, ingrained from childhood, has been pivotal to how I approach institutional change and strategy: it’s not about accepting marginalisation, but building systems in which everyone can actively and authentically contribute.
Dismantling Myths Around Inclusion
During my discussion with Joanne, I emphasised that diversity, equity, and inclusion are often misunderstood. There’s a persistent myth that equity is about lowering standards or providing preferential treatment. Instead, I explained DEI as simply the pragmatic recognition of difference. Diversity means all the myriad ways in which we are different—both visible and invisible. Inclusion is crafting spaces where all those differences are valued. And equity is the act of recognising that not everyone needs the same type of intervention to reach the same opportunity.
When we cater solutions to individual needs instead of defaulting to one-size-fits-all, we simply allow everyone the access to thrive. This message, I believe, is more vital now than ever.
The ‘Rocks and Fence’ Metaphor: A Pragmatic Visual for Equity Work
One analogy that resonated with listeners and with Joanne alike was the “rocks and fences” story. Borrowed from widely-shared visual equity models, this metaphor explains that to reach true fairness, we need short-term interventions (“rocks”) to overcome visible barriers (“fence”) while we systematically work to dismantle those barriers altogether. Crucially, those accustomed to advantage may not even perceive barriers at all until the landscape begins to shift—an insight vital for inclusive leadership.
Mindset, Legacy, and the Importance of Authenticity
I also reflected on the tremendous psychological burden that marginalised groups often carry—the sense of being a perpetual representative for their whole community. We discussed why building authentic cultures, where everyone can be themselves, isn’t just lip service: it’s foundational to dignity, resilience, and sustained performance.
Why We Must Not Shy from 'Diversity, Equity, Inclusion'
Despite recent rhetoric and polarisation around DEI, I argued for embracing these terms with clarity instead of rebranding to soothe discomfort. Just as I assert my identity as a proud Black woman, I believe society benefits from candid conversations that don’t obfuscate the reality or importance of inclusion work. As I shared in the episode, when we get equity right, everybody wins—it's never a zero-sum game.
Connect with Me
The conversation with Joanne on Inclusion Bites wasn’t just an interview—it was an opportunity to model what honest, developmental dialogue looks like. For anyone who missed it, the episode is available to play now on the Inclusion Bites website. I also encourage you to read my book, The Truth About Equity: What It Really Is, What It Isn’t and Why Everyone Wins When You Get It Right, available on Amazon and Audible, where I delve deeper into these themes.
I welcome ongoing connections—find me at crwdiversity.com, or reach out via LinkedIn or Instagram. Let’s keep the inclusion conversation bold, actionable, and human.
If you want to listen to the full episode, visit Inclusion Bites Podcast. To share your reflections or continue the dialogue, please reach out—these conversations move us all forward.
Pain Points and Challenges
Certainly! Drawing from the conversation between Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren in the “Equity by Design” episode of Inclusion Bites, several pain points and challenges around equity and inclusion were explicitly highlighted. Here’s a focused breakdown, along with content suggestions addressing each issue:
Pain Points and Challenges Identified
Burden of Representation and Behavioural Expectation
Minoritised individuals, especially Black women, often carry the burden of behaving in a way to make themselves “acceptable” to the majority, amplifying stress, exhaustion, and self-censorship.
Affinity Bias and Trust Barriers
Lack of trust and “Othering” stem from ignorance and unfamiliarity. Overcoming in-group/out-group dynamics is a persistent challenge.
Assumptions Around Competence in Diverse Hiring
The pervasive myth that diversity hiring equates to lowering standards, with default assumptions that candidates from minoritised backgrounds might be less competent.
Resilience vs. Reactive Culture in the Modern Age
The speed and permanence of social media reactions hinder reflective, constructive dialogue and resilience-building in younger generations.
Pushback Against DEI and Perception of Reverse Discrimination
DEI efforts often face resistance from majority groups who feel alienated or believe their own views and needs are being sidelined.
Structural and Institutional Barriers
Entrenched “isms” (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.) continue to operate in subtle, systemic ways, impeding true equity.
Confidence and Mindset of Marginalised Groups
Removing visible barriers is not enough; past experiences of discrimination and exclusion have lasting impacts on confidence, self-efficacy, and aspiration.
Early-Life and Educational Barriers
Bias and the reinforcement of limited expectations occur early, particularly in education systems, shaping life-long trajectories.
DEI Fatigue and Toxic Branding
The term “DEI” has itself become polarising, sometimes misunderstood or weaponised, which risks diminishing the work’s credibility and effectiveness.
Content Addressing These Challenges
1. Shifting the Burden of Representation
Content Strategy: Feature case studies and interviews where leaders have actively tackled institutional cultures, spotlighting those creating environments where being “yourself” is standard for all, not just the majority.
Practical Guide: “How to Share the Responsibility for Inclusive Culture: Steps for Majority Leaders and Allies.”
Workshop Template: “Moving from Representation to Participation—Empowering All Voices Without Emotional Taxation.”
2. Building Trust and Dismantling Affinity Bias
Podcast Segment: “From Other to Us—Practical Ways to Build Trust Across Difference” (including story-sharing exercises).
Resource List: Top five methods for fostering meaningful relationships in the workplace, moving past ‘getting to know you’ tokenism.
3. Combating the ‘Lowering the Bar’ Myth in Hiring
Explainer Video/Article: “Competence and Diversity: Why Both Are Non-Negotiable.”
Recruiter Toolkit: Equipping hiring managers to challenge internal biases and redefine what ‘qualified’ really means.
4. Navigating the Social Media and Reactive Culture
Interactive Workshop: “Pause Before You Post—Building Constructive Dialogue Online and Offline.”
Youth Engagement Piece: Advice from different generational perspectives on reflective response vs. instant reaction.
5. Responding to DEI Pushback with Clarity
Town Hall Format Podcast: Invite listeners to share their queries and fears regarding DEI. Respond with clarity about equity vs. equality, and the purpose of removing systemic barriers.
Infographic: “What DEI Is (and Isn’t): Busting Myths for the Sceptical Majority.”
6. Tackling Systemic and Institutional Barriers
Deep Dive Episode: “The Fence and The Rocks”—using the episode’s analogy, explore real-life examples of removing institutional barriers while supporting those impacted.
Action List: “Small Changes, Big Impact—How Everyday Acts of Equity Reshape Culture.”
7. Rekindling Confidence in Marginalised Groups
Mini-Series: Stories of individuals overcoming doubt and reclaiming self-belief after years of marginalisation.
Resource Guide: “From Surviving to Thriving—Support Pathways for Rebuilding Workplace Confidence.”
8. Redesigning Early Education for Aspiration
Panel Discussion: Involve educators, parents, and students discussing strategies to inject aspiration and resist early pigeonholing of future talent.
Toolkits for Parents and Teachers: “Spotting and Overcoming Early Bias.”
9. Reframing DEI Without Diluting Its Essence
Host Commentary: “Why We Won’t Rename DEI—But How We’ll Make It Make Sense.”
Digestible Definitions Series: Break down ‘diversity,’ ‘equity,’ and ‘inclusion’ with accessible stories and analogies to restore trust and clarity in the language.
Closing Note:
The voices and experiences highlighted by Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood in this episode underscore the need for ongoing, practical, and genuinely transformative action in inclusion work—not just new slogans, but new strategies. Through authentic storytelling, myth-busting resources, and actionable frameworks, we can dismantle barriers, build lasting trust, and reignite belief in the power and purpose of equity by design.
For more in-depth resources or to share your own story with the community, visit the Inclusion Bites Podcast or email jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Questions Asked that were insightful
Absolutely—there are several moments throughout this episode that lend themselves brilliantly to an FAQ format, offering deep, practical answers on equity, inclusion, and the real-life experiences that shape these concepts. Here are some potential FAQs, each reflecting specific questions or themes explored during the interview, along with the type of responses given by the speakers:
1. How did Celeste Warren’s upbringing influence her approach to equity and inclusion?
Celeste Warren shared that her formative years were deeply shaped by her father's experiences as the first Black teacher and principal in his area. Through dinner table conversations, she learned both about the challenges of marginalisation and, crucially, the importance of taking agency rather than using identity as an excuse to not achieve. This perspective profoundly underpins her pragmatic, resilient approach to DEI work.
2. Is it unfair for people from marginalised backgrounds to carry the burden of representational responsibility?
Joanne Lockwood raised the question of why those from minority or marginalised groups must behave "acceptably" in order to gain trust or drive change. Celeste Warren affirmed this has long been a reality, describing it as an unfair and exhausting burden. She went on to assert that today, there's a greater emphasis on empowering people to be themselves, value their differences, and encourage organisations to recognise their unique contributions—rather than compelling them to conform.
3. What is the difference between authentic self-expression and unfiltered behaviour at work?
Celeste Warren offered a nuanced view: while authenticity is celebrated, it comes with the responsibility to show dignity and respect for colleagues. She illustrated her point with the analogy of "business casual" versus "come as you are", highlighting the importance of professional context even as we value individuality.
4. How should organisations respond to the perception that diversity hiring means compromising on quality?
Both Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren tackled this common misconception. Celeste Warren explained that true DEI is not about lowering standards, but about ensuring candidate pools are diverse and that skills and experience come in all identities—challenging organisational biases about who "looks like" the ideal candidate and advocating for seeing the full range of someone's abilities beyond demographic assumptions.
5. Why do some in majority or incumbent groups feel threatened by DEI initiatives, and how should this be addressed?
Joanne Lockwood touched on the current backlash and the sentiment of "DEI must die," noting some majority group members now feel their authenticity or views are being policed. Celeste Warren responded that productive conversations are possible when all perspectives are respected. She reframed DEI not as a zero-sum game, but as about providing equitable access to opportunities, recognising difference without favouritism, and focusing on collective purpose. She also urged for candid education and honest dialogue to bridge perception gaps.
6. What are 'acts of equity' and how do they address systemic barriers?
Celeste Warren utilised the Deloitte 'rock and fence' analogy to describe acts of equity as targeted interventions that help individuals overcome obstacles unique to their background or identity. She stressed that equity is not about preference, but about enabling equal access by addressing specific disadvantages—a message which demystifies the intent and practice of equitable action.
7. How do societal or generational attitudes influence inclusion and resistance to change?
Both speakers referenced generational differences, with Celeste Warren expressing hope in younger generations who are more likely to question established practices ("why do we do it this way?") and less willing to accept exclusionary systems, fostering innovation and positive disruption in organisational cultures.
8. Why are Black women in the US disproportionately impacted by workforce layoffs?
Celeste Warren discussed data and personal testimonials highlighting that Black women and women of colour are overrepresented in roles vulnerable to layoffs (e.g., federal government, admin roles), and sometimes leave toxic environments voluntarily due to chronic marginalisation. She referred to this as a "canary in the coal mine," signalling broader structural problems that eventually impact everyone if not addressed.
9. Should 'DEI' be rebranded given the recent backlash?
Celeste Warren argued against rebranding, stating that the challenge is not with the terminology but with misunderstanding. She advocates for clear, pragmatic explanations and reinforcing the collective benefits of diversity, equity, and inclusion, rather than diluting the message by changing the name.
These questions and their in-depth answers could offer real value as an ongoing FAQ resource for your Inclusion Bites audience, helping address misperceptions, encourage self-reflection, and guide organisations towards more effective and empathetic DEI practice.
Blog article based on the episode
Equity by Design: Reimagining Inclusion, One Conversation at a Time
In a world surging with technological advances, changing demographics and global crises, the call for equity is louder than ever. Yet, progress seems elusive, hampered by misunderstanding, pushback, and fatigue. What does it truly mean to create “equity by design”, not just as a philosophical ideal but as an actionable approach in our workplaces and communities?
On a recent episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast entitled "Equity by Design", host Joanne Lockwood welcomed Celeste Warren—a globally recognised diversity, equity and inclusion strategist—to illuminate this critical topic. Drawing on her lived experience, professional journey and pragmatic wisdom, Celeste Warren provided transformative insights into what it takes to move beyond token inclusion towards genuine, sustainable equity.
The Problem: Are We Still Misunderstanding Equity?
Equity has become a buzzword—and often a battleground. Too many see it as a zero-sum game, believing that giving to one means taking from another. In the business world especially, there’s a persistent myth that hiring for diversity equates to lowering standards; that equity initiatives are a form of “preferential treatment”. As Joanne Lockwood observes, incumbency bias and a narrow definition of ‘competence’ often means that those from marginalised backgrounds must continually prove themselves worthy, carrying an undue burden not faced by the majority.
Celeste Warren shares a personal anecdote—her father, the first black principal in his district, experienced daily scrutiny simply for being ‘the first’. Instead of reacting with anger, he chose dignity and excellence. Over time, trust was earned, legacy built, and institutional barriers ever so slightly shifted. But the lesson remains stark: marginalised individuals are not only forced to be excellent but must also perform acceptability for others—a psychological tax laden with exhaustion and self-doubt.
This is compounded in the workplace by structural and ingrained biases, as Celeste Warren points out. She describes the infamous “candidate slate” meeting, where the mere suggestion of considering diverse applicants often triggers anxious queries about “qualification”. This scenario encapsulates the distrust that still permeates talent management and leadership pipelines.
Agitating the Status Quo: Why Authenticity Isn’t Enough
It's tempting to talk about ‘bringing your whole self to work’, but Celeste Warren cautions that authenticity must be tethered to respect and accountability. Yes, we each contribute unique value; but that contribution must coexist with an organisational culture founded on dignity. The challenge is to create a climate where neither majority nor minority groups feel threatened, diminished, or compelled to hide their true selves—provided mutual respect prevails.
And yet, as workplaces face tightening budgets, layoffs, and economic uncertainty, the disproportionate impact on black women and women of colour becomes a clear ‘canary in the coal mine’. It signals deeper, systemic vulnerabilities in organisational design and talent strategy. Are we truly designing for equity, or are we tinkering with symptoms?
Solution: Equity as Design, Not Charity
What then is the solution? Celeste Warren proposes a refreshingly pragmatic framework:
Meet People Where They Are: Leveraging differences isn’t about dilution nor preferential treatment; it’s about recognising individual starting points. Her metaphor of the “rocks and the fence”—borrowed from Deloitte—brilliantly demonstrates this: real equity means some will need more stepping stones to see over systemic walls, not because they lack merit, but because those obstacles were never erected for—and by—them.
Remove Systemic Obstacles: Acts of equity aren't just short-term patches. They’re designed interventions to remove deeply embedded isms—racism, sexism, homophobia, and beyond. This is long, methodical work that requires not only revising policies but actively interrogating cultural myths about who “belongs” and who is “best”.
Open Conversations, Not Defensiveness: Echoing her late father’s legacy, Celeste Warren underscores the power of conversation and trust-building. The person who has always seen over the fence needs to recognise the barrier—not just enjoy the view. Education, training, and open dialogue are not optional extras but necessary tools for dismantling bias and unlocking collective purpose.
Rethink Qualification and Value: As Joanne Lockwood notes, empathy, community engagement, and lived experience are undervalued competencies. Rebalancing job specifications and recruitment criteria to genuinely reflect the breadth of value that difference brings is imperative.
Mindset Shift—For All: Removing barriers is only half the battle. Those who have been historically marginalised must be supported to believe in their own value, to shed internalised limitations and to flourish once the "rocks" are no longer needed. Mindset work and trust-building are essential complements to structural change.
Future-Proofing with Education: As digital transformation and AI reshape the skills landscape, we must proactively ensure equity in emerging fields. That journey begins not just at the career entry point, but with early education and socialisation—parents, teachers, and communities sowing the seeds of aspiration from the outset.
Actionable Items: Putting Equity into Practice
Audit Your Organisation: Examine recruitment, selection, talent development and advancement processes for systemic bias. Who gets promoted? Who gets mentored? Where are the bottlenecks?
Facilitate Candid Dialogue: Establish spaces for story-sharing, learning, and allyship. Don’t just talk about DEI in acronyms—humanise it with narratives and practical illustrations.
Invest in Education and Mindset: Diversify access to stretch assignments, leadership development and skills training—especially for those historically excluded.
Champion Inclusive Metrics: Update performance and potential ratings to incorporate values such as empathy and community impact.
Be “You”—Organisationally and Individually: Embrace the ethos on Celeste Warren's T-shirt: Be you. The world will adjust. But always with an accountability for respect and mutual dignity.
Call to Action: Join the Movement, Not Just the Conversation
The clarion call of “Equity by Design” is more than an invitation—it's a demand for change. We must abandon the comfort of one-size-fits-all and reject myths of deficit and threat. Equity is not lowering standards; it is unlocking collective value. When we design for equity, we create spaces where belonging turns into innovation and difference becomes our strongest asset.
Inspired by Celeste Warren's courageous wisdom and transformative examples, let us commit not only to talking about inclusion, but to architecting it—strategically, holistically, and sustainably.
Ready to start?
Subscribe to the Inclusion Bites Podcast at seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.
Reach out to Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your story or join an upcoming episode.
Connect with Celeste Warren directly, and discover her book "The Truth About Equity" for practical strategies and inspiration.
Let’s refuse performative inclusion and instead design workplaces—and communities—where equity is built into the very foundations. The world doesn’t merely need more talk; it needs bold, collective action.
Equity by Design is the future. Will you help build it?
The standout line from this episode
The standout line from this episode is:
"Be you. The world will adjust."
This was shared by Celeste Warren as a powerful reminder on authenticity, belonging, and the true meaning of equity by design.
❓ Questions
Certainly! Here are 10 discussion questions inspired by the episode "Equity by Design" of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, featuring Celeste Warren and hosted by Joanne Lockwood:
How did Celeste Warren's childhood experiences, particularly her father's role as the first Black teacher and principal in his area, shape her understanding of equity and resilience?
In what ways does the pace and nature of modern communication, such as social media, impact our approaches to addressing injustice compared to previous generations as discussed by Celeste Warren?
Celeste Warren describes overcoming adversity by "doing the job well" and building trust over time. To what extent do you think this approach is still effective or fair in today's landscape of diversity and inclusion?
Joanne Lockwood raises the notion that members of marginalised groups often carry a “burden” to be constantly exemplary. How can organisations ease this burden without placing additional expectations on those individuals?
Reflecting on Celeste Warren’s t-shirt message “Be you. The world will adjust.” — what are the risks and rewards of such an approach in professional settings?
Where should the line be drawn between authenticity and professionalism in the workplace, especially for those with protected characteristics, as explored by both speakers?
The episode uses the “rocks and fence” metaphor to describe equity and systemic barriers. How effective do you find this analogy for sparking productive conversations about equity in your own context?
What strategies could help leaders recognise and move beyond biases when hiring from a diverse candidate pool, as highlighted by Celeste Warren's recruiter example?
The speakers mention the importance of educating both marginalised and majority groups about systemic barriers and internalised limitations. What practical steps can organisations take to facilitate this dual educational process?
How can we maintain momentum for equity and inclusion when facing political and cultural pushback, and what lessons can we draw from the cyclical nature of progress as discussed by Celeste Warren?
These questions are designed to prompt deep reflection, robust dialogue, and actionable thought around the themes raised in this episode.
FAQs from the Episode
FAQ: Equity by Design – Inclusion Bites Podcast, Episode 212
1. What does “Equity by Design” mean in the context of inclusion?
“Equity by Design” refers to intentionally embedding equity principles into the structures, policies, and everyday practices of organisations. As discussed by Celeste Warren, it means recognising individuals’ varying circumstances and proactively addressing barriers that might hinder access, participation, or advancement. It is not about offering preferential treatment, but about ensuring everyone has what they need to thrive.
2. How do diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) differ, and how are they connected?
Diversity is the presence of differences among people, both visible and invisible—such as race, gender, background, or experiences.
Inclusion involves creating a culture where those diverse individuals feel they belong, are valued, and their voices are leveraged.
Equity bridges the gap by recognising that people start from different places and need different support to gain equal access to opportunities.
As Celeste Warren explained, inclusion creates the environment, diversity brings differences into the room, and equity ensures everyone reaches the collective goal.
3. Why do some people feel threatened by equity initiatives or DEI work?
Resistance often arises from misunderstandings about what DEI is and isn’t. As discussed, some assume equity means “lowering standards” or giving special favours, particularly when hearing about equity initiatives in recruitment or progression. However, as Celeste Warren pointed out, equity is about removing systemic barriers so all qualified people—including those from historically marginalised groups—can succeed, not about compromising quality or fairness.
4. What is the difference between “authenticity” and being “unfiltered” at work?
While openness and authenticity at work are encouraged, Celeste Warren noted that authenticity must be balanced with accountability. Being one’s true self doesn’t mean disregarding mutual respect or professional standards. Authenticity should never come at the expense of others’ dignity.
5. How can organisations move beyond their default view of “ideal candidates” based on stereotypes?
Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren highlighted that job specs and recruitment processes are often unconsciously shaped by the demographics or experiences of hiring managers. Organisations need to value competencies beyond technical skills, such as lived experience and empathy, and should challenge implicit assumptions about who fits best in a role. Structured awareness and education are key to broadening these mindsets.
6. What’s the impact of historic marginalisation on confidence and engagement?
Systemic barriers and generational messages can embed a sense of limitation or reduced self-belief in marginalised individuals (Joanne Lockwood, Celeste Warren). Removing structural barriers is important but not sufficient—organisations also need to offer support and encouragement so individuals from marginalised groups can believe in, and seize, new opportunities.
7. Why are black women particularly impacted by workplace layoffs and underrepresentation, for example in the US?
Layoffs are often more prevalent in sectors or roles where black women are overrepresented, such as government or lower-paid work. In addition, longstanding inequities in access to higher-paying or technical fields, along with systemic biases throughout the pipeline, mean black women may be more vulnerable to economic downturns or organisational change (Celeste Warren).
8. Should we rebrand DEI to make it more palatable?
Both Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood agreed that rebranding isn’t the answer. Instead, it is crucial to explain and contextualise the terms, using clear, practical language and emphasising that genuine DEI benefits everyone. “Diversity” means recognising difference, “equity” means support tailored to individual needs, and “inclusion” means valuing belonging and voice.
9. How can individuals and organisations foster a culture of equity and inclusion?
Challenge unexamined assumptions about talent and “fit”
Educate themselves and others on systemic barriers
Value diverse lived experiences and perspectives
Encourage respectful conversation about differing views
Support those from marginalised backgrounds in building confidence and self-belief
Focus on removing structural “fences” rather than just adding short-term fixes (“rocks”)
10. Where can listeners learn more or get in touch with the speakers?
Listeners can connect with Celeste Warren via her website (crwdiversity.com), LinkedIn, or Instagram, and can read her book, "The Truth About Equity," which is available on Amazon in print and audio formats. For more episodes and resources, visit Inclusion Bites Podcast or contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Tell me more about the guest and their views
The guest for this episode, Celeste Warren, is a seasoned Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) strategist, author, speaker, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting. She brings over three decades of experience working to embed equity and build inclusive cultures within organisations. In her work, Celeste Warren emphasises the practical realities of enacting equity—she describes her superpower as connecting heart and strategy, turning complex concepts into clear and actionable models for leaders.
Her views on equity are rooted in her formative experiences growing up in Pennsylvania: her father was the first Black teacher and principal in his local area, and the family’s daily conversations instilled an understanding of the obstacles faced by marginalised groups—and the importance of perseverance and action in overcoming those barriers (00:02:04 onwards). Celeste Warren recounts a powerful story of her father: despite facing distrust as a Black educator, he built trust through relentless professionalism and integrity, eventually inspiring community change. She reflects that adversity need not be a deterrent—rather, it can fuel achievement and legacy, challenging the status quo and fostering generational resilience (00:06:44 onwards).
Throughout the conversation, Celeste Warren addresses the burden often placed on those from minority or marginalised backgrounds: the expectation to represent their entire group and behave in ways that make them “acceptable” to the majority. She points out the exhaustion and unfairness of carrying that weight, and advocates that authenticity should not require self-erasure or constant modification to fit into monocultural norms (00:13:30). Her philosophy: “Be you. The world will adjust.” She’s passionate about flipping the narrative so organisations value the unique perspectives that different identities bring.
In addition, Celeste Warren tackles the contentious pushback against DEI initiatives—debunking misconceptions that equity means lowering standards (00:21:33). She explains equity using a pragmatic analogy: giving everyone the support they need so they can have genuine access to opportunities, rather than assuming everyone begins from the same starting point. She’s clear that this isn’t preferential treatment, but rather recognising individual obstacles and tailoring support accordingly.
She is also candid about structural inequalities and persistent biases, such as the disproportionate job losses impacting Black women in the US. For her, this trend is a “canary in the coal mine”—a warning of wider systemic issues requiring urgent attention (00:38:51). She encourages young people and professionals to anticipate the future, upskill themselves in line with shifts such as AI and technology, and not to rely solely on traditional pathways, which often exclude marginalised talent.
Ultimately, Celeste Warren believes in retaining the terminology and clarity of diversity, equity, and inclusion rather than rebranding, but advocates explaining the concepts in simple, operational terms so they resonate more widely. She asserts that when DEI is done right, everyone benefits—the collective tide lifts all boats, and “everybody wins.”
If you wish to explore her perspectives further, Celeste Warren invites listeners to connect via her website, LinkedIn, Instagram, or to read her book, The Truth About Equity: What It Really Is, What It Isn't and Why Everyone Wins When You Get It Right.
Ideas for Future Training and Workshops based on this Episode
Absolutely, here are several actionable training and workshop ideas inspired by this episode of Inclusion Bites, “Equity by Design,” featuring insights from Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood:
1. Equity by Design: Making Equity Pragmatic for Leaders
A highly practical workshop aimed at senior leaders and HR teams, leveraging Celeste Warren’s model for embedding acts of equity. This session would explore:
Understanding individual barriers and meeting people “where they are”
Designing step-by-step equitable processes in recruitment, progression, and retention
Real-world scenarios and exercises to practice identifying and dismantling institutional ‘fences’ (barriers)
2. Affinity Bias, Trust, and Legacy: Lessons from Personal Experience
A reflective workshop using storytelling as a tool. Drawing from the story of Celeste Warren’s father, activities could include:
Exploring how affinity bias forms and is disrupted
Techniques for building trust as both an ‘in-group’ and ‘out-group’ member
Group discussions and case studies to recognise trust-building behaviours
3. The Emotional Tax: Navigating Identity and Belonging at Work
Based on the profound conversation about the ‘burden’ carried by those from marginalised identities (09:06–14:02):
Exercises to surface internalised narratives about belonging, safety, and “fitting in”
Strategies for allies to lighten the emotional load, including reimagining organisational norms
Role-play encountering and challenging stereotypes professionally
4. Challenging the “DEI Pushback”: Clean Communication and Constructive Debate
Using the DEI pushback segment (16:45–23:55), this workshop would address:
How to engage majority group members without defensiveness or dilution
Tools for hosting respectful, solutions-focused conversations on difference
Practice responding to common DEI-must-die tropes and misperceptions
5. Recruitment Reboot: Diversifying the Candidate Avatar
Exploring Celeste Warren’s narrative about recruitment bias:
Identifying the “default candidate” and the hidden standards in our job specs
Redesigning recruitment marketing to value empathy and lived experience alongside technical skills
Simulation exercises balancing technical competence with cultural and lived-experience-based competencies
6. The Fence and the Rocks: Visualising Acts of Equity (Deloitte Model)
A hands-on, highly visual session using the “fence and rocks” analogy (25:18–30:01):
Group mural/visual journey mapping of the ‘fence’, ‘rocks’, and what justice looks like
Identifying short, medium, and long-term actions for incremental and systemic change
Allies workshop: How to “grab an oar and row” together
7. Mindset and Behaviour Shifts: Breaking the Cycle of “How Things Have Always Been Done”
Inspired by reflections on generational change and workplace culture:
Activities encouraging participants to identify, question, and re-engineer inherited workplace norms
Empowering marginalised voices to reimagine ‘success’ and build self-belief (the monkey ladder story/analogy)
Intergenerational dialogue sessions between senior leaders and Gen Z/Y
8. Future Skills: Preparing Marginalised Communities for Tomorrow’s Workforce
Workshop for early talent, parents, and educators, based on the discussion of AI, STEM, and the next wave of layoffs:
Motivational content around aspiration-setting for children and young people of colour
Actionable skills and mindset strategies to access future industries and de-risk job displacement
9. Reframing DEI: Language, Narrative and the Path Forward
A communication and leadership lab, eschewing acronyms and focusing on what Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion genuinely mean. Includes:
Practice articulating DEI without jargon in plain, relatable terms for different audiences
Exercises on “meeting people where they are” and moving hearts and minds
Storytelling mini-lab: Sharing one’s “why” for DEI with authenticity and impact
Each of these workshops draws from and extends the stories, models, and practical wisdom in this episode. Sessions can be tailored for different audiences, from C-suite executives to early-career talent or grassroots ERG groups, always keeping the focus on courageous conversation and tangible next steps.
🪡 Threads by Instagram
Equity isn’t preferential treatment—it’s meeting people where they are and removing barriers to opportunity. As Celeste Warren says, diversity and inclusion are about unlocking everyone’s potential, not lowering standards.
“Be you. The world will adjust.” Authenticity and self-value are vital. Celeste Warren urges us to be ourselves within organisations, reminding us the right culture values what each unique voice brings.
The default candidate isn’t always the best fit. Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren challenge us to rethink hiring stereotypes—skills, empathy and lived experience enrich an organisation far beyond any demographic.
Systemic change takes time. We must both build acts of equity and tear down barriers. Celeste Warren shares: education, mindset shift and allyship are needed so everyone benefits as inclusion grows.
The DEI backlash isn’t the demise of progress. Celeste Warren believes clarity and honest conversations—rather than rebranding—can help us reconnect with the human value at the heart of inclusion.
Leadership Insights - YouTube Short Video Script on Common Problems for Leaders to Address
Leadership Insights Channel — Creating Equity by Design
Are you a leader frustrated by the resistance around diversity, equity, and inclusion? You’re not alone. A common challenge leaders face is the misconception that equity means giving preferential treatment or lowering standards. This can lead to pushback, doubt, and a fractured team culture.
Here’s how to flip the narrative and foster true inclusion:
First, recognise that equity is about giving people what they need to access opportunities – not about lowering the bar. It means meeting your team members where they are, understanding individual obstacles, and helping everyone reach their full potential.
So what actions can you take?
Have open, respectful conversations. Listen to your team’s lived experiences.
Challenge your own assumptions about what the ‘ideal candidate’ looks like.
Review your recruitment and development processes. Ask, are you valuing only technical skills, or also the unique perspectives and empathy your team brings?
Be transparent about the steps you’re taking to remove barriers—and invite feedback.
Educate yourself continuously. Read, reflect, and stay curious.
With these behaviours, you’ll build trust, encourage belonging, and drive better outcomes for your organisation. When every individual can thrive, your team’s creativity and engagement soar.
Lead with equity—your organisation and your people will thank you.
SEO Optimised Titles
Breaking the Equity Myth: Why Diverse Hires Aren't Second Best | Insights from 8 Years of Legacy | Celeste @ CRW Diversity
The Truth About DEI Pushback: 2020 Activism, Conservative Pendulums, and Who Loses Out | Celeste @ CRW Diversity
Unlocking Equity by Design: Lessons from 30+ Years in Inclusion Strategy and the One Rock Analogy | Celeste @ CRW Diversity
Email Newsletter about this Podcast Episode
Subject: Equity by Design: 5 Powerful Insights from Inclusion Bites 🎧
Hello Inclusion Bites family,
Are you ready to take a deeper dive into what equity really means in modern workplaces — and society at large? This week’s episode, “Equity by Design,” features an absolutely enlightening conversation between Joanne Lockwood and powerhouse DEI strategist Celeste Warren. There’s something special about hearing real, lived experiences woven together with actionable advice, and this episode serves up both in abundance!
Here are 5 key things you’ll learn when you tune in:
How True Equity Goes Beyond ‘Fairness’: Celeste Warren breaks down equity in the workplace, showing it’s not about giving everyone the same resources, but meeting people where they are and removing barriers.
The Weight of Representation: Hear about how marginalised individuals often carry the heavy responsibility of “representing” their group, and why it’s time to flip that narrative.
Building Trust in Adversity: Through her father’s powerful story as the first Black principal in his area, Celeste Warren shares how trust and resilience can create lasting change.
The Myth of ‘Lower Standards’ in Diverse Hiring: This episode dismantles the misconception that diversity means compromise, revealing how the right person for the role may not look like who you expect.
Why Mindset Shifts Are Essential: Equity is more than just policy — it’s about changing perspectives from the ground up, both for those who have always had access and those who’ve faced barriers.
A unique fact you’ll hear:
Did you know that when Celeste Warren's father passed away, students lined the streets to say goodbye, and the local school was renamed in his honour? If that’s not legacy, what is?
Ready to get inspired and informed?
Listen to the full episode of Inclusion Bites – “Equity by Design.” Share it with friends, colleagues, or anyone craving authentic conversation about inclusion, belonging, and real societal transformation. If you want to join the next conversation or have some thoughts, you can always reach Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Take Action:
→ Hit play now on seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
→ Forward this newsletter, and help us ignite change, one dialogue at a time.
Strong finish:
Let’s not just talk about inclusion — let’s design it into everything we do. Thanks for being part of a community that’s not afraid to challenge the status quo and drive real change.
Catch you on the next bite!
The Inclusion Bites Team
Potted Summary
Episode Introduction
In episode 212 of Inclusion Bites, host Joanne Lockwood welcomes Celeste Warren to explore “Equity by Design”. Drawing on Celeste’s extensive experience as a DEI strategist, the conversation investigates how equity initiatives can be woven into the very fabric of organisations. With insightful anecdotes and practical advice, Joanne and Celeste examine the real-world impact of inclusive cultures, the challenge of bias, and the power of authenticity in creating lasting change.
In This Conversation We Discuss
👉 Affinity bias
👉 Authenticity at work
👉 Equitable opportunities
Here Are a Few of Our Favourite Quotable Moments
“Be you. The world will adjust.” – Celeste Warren
“It's not about preferential treatment for one group over another. It's simply about giving people what it is they need to have access to opportunities.” – Celeste Warren
“You have a responsibility and accountability to, yes, speak your mind, but do it in a way that you still maintain dignity and respect of your colleagues.” – Celeste Warren
Summary and Call to Action
This episode delivers a meaningful conversation on designing equity deliberately and handling the burdens facing marginalised groups. Joanne and Celeste unpack the reality of workplace bias, authentic leadership, and practical steps for fostering inclusion. For actionable insights and bold perspectives, listen now at Inclusion Bites and join the movement for real change.
LinkedIn Poll
LinkedIn Poll Context
In our latest episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, “Equity by Design”, Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood interrogate what real equity looks like in organisations—and how historic barriers and the myths about preferential treatment still shape opportunities for diverse talent. Are equitable practices widely misunderstood? Does our collective mindset need shifting to recognise the value of lived experience as much as technical skill? As DEI pushes forward amid backlash and misinformation, we’re curious how leaders and colleagues actually perceive equity in the workplace.
Poll Question
What do you believe is the biggest challenge to achieving equity by design in organisations?
Poll Options
🧑🤝🧑 Bias in recruitment #Inclusion
📚 Misunderstanding equity #DEI
💬 Lack of open dialogue #Belonging
🏗️ Outdated workplace culture #Equity
Why Vote?
Your opinion matters! By sharing what you think stands in the way, you’ll help highlight the practical barriers—and open new conversations for lasting change. The Inclusion Bites Podcast is all about real talks that drive progress. Cast your vote, add your thoughts in the comments, and join us in pushing the equity debate forward. #InclusionBites #EquityByDesign #PositivePeopleExperiences
Highlight the Importance of this topic on LinkedIn
🌍 Just finished listening to "Equity by Design" on Inclusion Bites Podcast by Joanne Lockwood & Celeste Warren — and wow, what a powerful, necessary conversation for anyone in HR or EDI leadership!
🎙️ This episode cuts to the heart of inclusion: not just diversity for diversity’s sake, but true equity–acts and mindsets that level the playing field. Celeste Warren brilliantly reframes the equity narrative, busting the myth that it’s about lowering standards. Instead, it’s about removing barriers and delivering opportunity, ensuring everyone can thrive and organisations can harness the full spectrum of talent.
🧠 The stories shared on marginalisation, resilience, and trust highlight exactly why we must keep pushing for workplace cultures where every voice is valued and every difference is leveraged.
⚖️ As HR and EDI professionals, we are architects of organisational culture. This is a call to actively design systems that foster belonging, not just compliance. When we do, everyone wins.
💬 If you missed it, listen here: https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#EquityByDesign #InclusionBites #DEI #HRLeadership #Belonging #PositivePeopleExperiences
L&D Insights
Absolutely! Here’s a focused summary of key insights for Senior Leaders, HR, and EDI professionals drawn directly from the "Equity by Design" episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, featuring Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood:
Strategic Takeaways for Leadership & HR 🚀
1. Reframe Recruitment and Talent Conversations
The episode highlights that often, when diversity is mentioned in recruitment, there’s an implicit assumption about skill and suitability (Celeste Warren). Leaders should be vigilant about unconscious biases, particularly the myth that "diverse hiring means second-best". Instead, diversity is about surfacing equally qualified talent from a variety of identities and backgrounds.
"Aha Moment:
Recruiters often get unfairly challenged with “are they qualified?” when diversity candidates are presented. That bias must be surfaced and tackled head-on.
What to do differently:
Audit and recalibrate your interview and candidate selection language.
Challenge hiring managers to articulate and confront their assumptions.
Broaden the lens around what “qualified” means: lived experience, empathy, and resilience are as vital as technical skills.
2. Equity Means Meeting People Where They Are
Celeste Warren explains equity using the rocks-and-fence metaphor: not everyone begins in the same place, so acts of equity may look like tailored support, not "preferential treatment". Ensuring all team members have access – not equality of inputs, but of outcomes – must be deliberately designed.
"Aha Moment:
People who already have access to opportunity seldom see the invisible barriers others face. The discomfort some feel is often simply because they do not see “the fence” holding others back.
What to do differently:
Implement focused outreach and support programmes that uplift those facing greater barriers.
Communicate openly about why different supports are needed and how they dismantle structural obstacles.
3. Psychological Safety Through Authenticity (with Accountability)
The podcast noted the nuanced difference between “being your authentic self” and disregarding organisational values. Authenticity must align with respect and dignity for all (see Celeste Warren on business casual vs. come-as-you-are).
"Aha Moment:
You can encourage authenticity and still uphold standards and respect. Do not conflate unfiltered behaviour with authentic contribution.
What to do differently:
Train line managers to support psychological safety, ensuring all voices are valued but boundaries are respected.
Facilitate conversations about authenticity without slipping into permissiveness.
4. Marginalised Groups Carry Extra Weight
Powerful stories from Celeste Warren’s upbringing demonstrate that individuals from marginalised groups often feel forced to over-perform or “represent”, unlike majority peers who enjoy a presumption of competence.
"Aha Moment:
Recognise the invisible load of under-represented colleagues, especially around “code-switching” or proving worth.
What to do differently:
Adapt leadership programmes to proactively support confidence and self-efficacy in those from marginalised groups.
Do not expect under-represented staff to teach or lead on EDI; make space for their authentic growth.
5. Rethink How EDI Is Framed & Communicated
Celeste Warren argues for clear language: don’t rebrand EDI, teach what it really means. The pendulum swing in public discourse will pass; stay the course and articulate equity and inclusion in business terms.
"Aha Moment:
People only benefit when they truly understand the why of equity and inclusion—explain, don’t obfuscate.
What to do differently:
Ditch the jargon: use stories, metaphors, and plain English to explain EDI concepts.
Host “lunch & learn” or open forums to tackle myths and build new narratives.
In Summary
This episode makes it clear: equity is a journey, not a tick-box. Harness stories to drive change. Challenge biases in real time. Meet people where they are, not where you assume them to be.
Hashtags for Social Media:
#EquityByDesign #InclusionLeadership #BreakBias #ActForEquity #InclusionBites
🪨🔥✨🗣️🤝
Ready to spark change in your organisation? Start here.
Shorts Video Script
SOCIAL MEDIA VIDEO TITLE:
Equity Isn’t Preferential Treatment—It’s How We All Win! #BelongingForAll #EquityInAction
Text on screen: Equity by Design 💡
Have you ever wondered what real equity looks like in everyday life? I want to talk about how building inclusive cultures isn’t about preferential treatment, but making sure everyone has genuine access to opportunity.
Text on screen: Breaking Down Barriers 🚧
Here’s the thing. Equity means recognising that not everyone starts from the same place. Imagine three people trying to see over a fence—one can see easily, two can’t. It’s not fair to give everyone the same support if their starting points differ. True equity is about meeting people where they are and giving them what they need so they can reach their potential.
Text on screen: Equity Isn’t Lowering Standards 📊
If you’ve ever felt that diversity hiring means second best, it’s time to rethink. Skill and talent exist in people of all backgrounds. Let go of default stereotypes and picture the perfect candidate based on real skills, not just demographics. Equity is about removing barriers so everyone gets a fair shot, not making exceptions.
Text on screen: “Be You. The World Will Adjust.” 🌈
Authenticity matters. Being your true self shouldn’t mean carrying the burden of proving your worth or fitting into someone else’s idea of acceptance. When cultures value every voice, we all thrive. Helping one group doesn’t take away from others. In fact, it raises the tide for everyone.
Text on screen: Change starts with mindset 💬
The hard part? Changing mindsets that have been shaped by generations of bias and exclusion—on both sides. It takes patience, education, and a willingness to challenge old habits. But when we get it right, everyone benefits, and the environment becomes more productive, innovative, and just.
Thanks for watching! Remember, together we can make a difference. Stay connected, stay inclusive! See you next time. ✨
Hashtags:
#EquityByDesign
#InclusionMatters
#BelongingForAll
#ChallengeBias
#InclusiveCulture
Glossary of Terms and Phrases
## Less Commonly Used Concepts from "Equity by Design" — Definitions
- **Affinity Bias**
The tendency to favour people who share similar backgrounds or characteristics, leading to in-group preference and out-group marginalisation. Discussed in the episode as an unconscious mechanism whereby increased familiarity shifts “the Other” into the circle of trust.
- **Acts of Equity**
Deliberate actions or interventions designed to remove obstacles and address individual barriers, ensuring access to opportunities and fair treatment. Often exemplified metaphorically as “giving people the rocks they need to see over the fence”.
- **Incumbency**
The position of existing dominance or advantage enjoyed by individuals from majority or established groups, which is unchallenged until questioned by DEI efforts. Frequently linked in the episode to default expectations in recruitment and workplace culture.
- **Keyboard Courage**
A phrase describing the phenomenon where individuals say or do things online or on social media platforms that they might not in face-to-face situations, owing to a sense of relative anonymity and immediacy.
- **Avatar of the Perfect Candidate**
A metaphorical construct referencing the mental image or demographic assumptions hiring managers have when envisioning the “ideal” person for a job, which often mirrors their own or pre-existing norms, thus influencing recruitment biases.
- **Rocks and Fence Analogy**
An illustrative framework (adapted from a Deloitte infographic) to explain equity:
- *Rocks*: represent acts of equity (supportive interventions or resources distributed unevenly to address varying needs)
- *Fence*: symbolises structural barriers, biases, or “isms” (racism, sexism, etc.) that impede equitable access
- **Isms**
A collective shorthand for systemic forms of discrimination and bias (e.g., racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia) that are embedded structurally within institutions and society and contribute to unequal outcomes.
- **Tightrope (of Identity)**
The precarious balancing act faced by individuals from marginalised backgrounds, who must perform or behave in specific ways to avoid negative stereotyping or backlash while attempting to be authentic and succeed.
- **Pendulum of Social Change**
The concept that social and political climates oscillate over time between periods of progress (e.g., social activism or increased inclusion) and retrenchment (e.g., increased conservatism or backlash).
- **Active Ally**
Not merely intellectual support for inclusion but the proactive participation ("grab an oar and row with us") in dismantling barriers and advocating for equity, going beyond passive agreement.
- **Internalised Marginalisation**
The psychological adoption of limiting beliefs or lower confidence by individuals from historically excluded groups, as a result of repeated exposure to bias, discrimination, or lack of opportunity.
- **Aperture (Widening/Broadening)**
A metaphor for expanded perspective and understanding; when barriers are removed, all individuals—including those from the majority—gain new insights and visions previously blocked by their privileged position.
- **Canary in the Coal Mine**
Used metaphorically to describe black women or other marginalised groups as early indicators of future, broader societal or economic shifts. If adverse trends affect these groups first, others may soon follow.
- **Management 101/Leadership 101 (in the context of Equity)**
The principle that a fundamental aspect of organisational leadership is to understand, address, and support the diverse needs of individuals to ensure everyone can realise their potential—a practical, not preferential, approach to equity.
- **Business Casual vs. Come As You Are (Authenticity)**
An analogy to describe the balance between personal authenticity and professional accountability. One must remain true to oneself while respecting the boundaries and expectations of organisational culture.
---
These concepts, thoroughly discussed by Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren, form the nuanced language around equity, inclusion, and the lived experience of marginalisation explored in this episode.SEO Optimised YouTube Content
Focus Keyword: Equity by Design
Video Title
Equity by Design: Driving Culture Change for Positive People Experiences | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags
Tags: equity by design, culture change, positive people experiences, diversity and inclusion, inclusion podcast, Joanne Lockwood, Celeste Warren, organisational equity, DEI strategy, inclusive leadership, workplace equity, social justice, belonging at work, inclusive culture, equity in organisations, DEI podcast, breaking bias, lived experience, equity action, allyship, inclusive recruitment, removing barriers, trust and belonging, DEI transformation, equity education
Killer Quote
Killer Quote: "Be you. The world will adjust." – Celeste Warren
Hashtags
Hashtags: #EquityByDesign, #CultureChange, #PositivePeopleExperiences, #InclusionBites, #InclusionPodcast, #DEI, #DiversityAndInclusion, #Belonging, #InclusiveCulture, #WorkplaceEquity, #Leadership, #Allyship, #Trust, #LivedExperience, #EquityEducation, #OrganisationalChange, #BreakingBias, #SocialJustice, #JoanneLockwood, #CelesteWarren
Why Listen: Unlocking Equity by Design for Positive People Experiences and Culture Change
Welcome to this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, where I, Joanne Lockwood, join forces with renowned diversity, equity, and inclusion strategist Celeste Warren to confront the realities and transformative potential of “Equity by Design”. If you’re driven by the promise of culture change and passionate about creating Positive People Experiences, this is an unmissable conversation.
Right from the outset, Celeste’s story captivates. She paints a vivid picture of her upbringing in Pennsylvania, where her father, the trailblazing first Black teacher and principal in his town, demonstrated the daily challenges—and triumphs—of being a pioneer. Through his example and the candid conversations at their family table, Celeste absorbed the resilience, perspective, and hope necessary to navigate a world that wasn’t always designed for belonging or equity.
As our discussion unfolds, we get under the skin of what equity by design truly means. It’s not just about ticking the right boxes or virtue signalling; it’s a conscious, strategic approach that deliberately redesigns systems and behaviours for inclusion to flourish. We unpick why simply inviting diversity into the room isn’t enough—you must construct a workplace, a community, even a society, where every voice is not only heard, but valued and empowered to thrive.
A hallmark of the episode is our exploration of how social and organisational norms condition both those in the “in group” and those on the margins. Together, Celeste and I shine a light on the profound burdens placed on minoritised individuals—how they are too often expected to reshape themselves merely to be accepted. We examine why shifting this paradigm, so that authenticity and trust replace conformity and caution, is at the heart of sustainable culture change.
You’ll hear Celeste challenge the dangerous misconception that equity is equivalent to lowering standards or favouring some over others. We unpack her rock-and-fence analogy—a powerful image illustrating how acts of equity (the “rocks”) are necessary to overcome deeply ingrained barriers (the “fence”). The real triumph, she notes, comes once these obstacles are removed and everyone is enabled to participate equally. This resonates at every level—leader, team member, or aspiring change agent—reminding us that Positive People Experiences can only truly be achieved when no one is left standing on pebbles, peering over fences others can’t even see.
Throughout the episode, the Positive People Experiences are woven inseparably with the case for culture change. We tackle the backlash against DEI work, the temptation to dilute messages for mass appeal, and the critical need to help everyone—from recruiters and leaders to the person standing on “one rock”—grasp how inclusion benefits all. Drawing on personal anecdotes, academic research, and decades of lived experience, Celeste and I offer listeners not just theory, but practical, actionable insights to drive the change your organisation and society need.
We also address the impact of generational shifts, the pitfalls of historical conditioning, and the essential role of allyship in moving beyond merely intellectualising equity to actively rowing together towards progress. In sharing real-world examples, from the invisible barriers that see Black women disproportionately affected by redundancies, to the empowering mantra “Be you. The world will adjust,” we invite you to rethink how equity is understood, achieved, and sustained.
If you’re looking for an in-depth guide on making equity foundational to your strategy, or simply want inspiration on forging Positive People Experiences that ripple through every layer of your culture, this conversation is for you. Expect authenticity, challenge, and plenty of actionable wisdom—all with a generous spirit that sees inclusion not as a box to tick, but as a call to action.
Closing Summary and Call to Action
Before you go, let’s distil the key takeaways and learning points from this thought-provoking episode—a resource hub you can return to or share to ignite culture change where it’s most needed:
1. Equity by Design Is Strategic, Not Accidental
Creating truly inclusive cultures demands intentionality—designing policies, systems, and behaviours that remove structural barriers, rather than assuming diversity will thrive naturally. Begin by auditing your workplace: what are the visible and invisible “fences” that hinder participation?
2. Value Lived Experience as a Strategic Asset
Don’t just invite diverse voices to the table—build trust, learn their stories, and treat lived experience as an essential organisational asset. Representation unlocks fresh perspectives, innovation, and resilience.
3. Acts of Equity Are Essential—and Personalised
The “rock and fence” analogy highlights how different people need different support to reach the same opportunities. Generic measures aren’t enough; identify where tailored intervention is needed to dismantle systemic isms (racism, sexism, ableism, etc.).
4. Trust, Belonging, and Allyship Power Culture Change
Culture change is sustained when trust is built from the inside out. Foster a climate where team members feel safe to be themselves, contribute authentically, and challenge the status quo. Allies must do more than listen—they must row alongside those who’ve been marginalised.
5. Purposeful Recruitment and Retention Break Old Patterns
Challenge the default candidate avatar. When hiring and promoting, evaluate not just technical skill, but also empathy, cultural fluency, and leadership potential. Recognise that bias often hides in job specs, interviews, and “culture fit” language.
6. Rethink Progress: Removing Barriers and Healing Mindsets
Removing external obstacles is not enough; you must also nurture confidence and self-belief in those previously excluded. Invest in coaching, mentorship, and psychological safety as ongoing threads in Positive People Experiences, especially for those emerging from historically marginalised groups.
7. Acknowledge and Address Backlash With Education
DEI is facing backlash. Don’t rebrand or apologise; instead, increase people’s understanding using clear, pragmatic language. Replace defensive jargon with compelling stories and real-world evidence, as Celeste and I demonstrate.
8. Embrace Generational Change and Fresh Challenges
Younger generations are more willing to ask “why” and challenge outdated habits—nurture this curiosity, encourage innovation, and make questioning a valued part of your evolving culture.
9. Use Data to Anticipate Broader Shifts
Understand the significance of trends, such as the disproportionate impact of layoffs on women of colour, as signals of wider systemic risk. Don’t wait for inequity to hit the majority before acting—start preventative, holistic cultural interventions now.
10. Celebrate Authenticity Without Abandoning Accountability
Embrace authenticity, but also emphasise respect and dignity in every interaction. Create spaces where everyone feels empowered to be themselves, but understands the value of collegiality and collaboration.
11. Positive People Experiences Start with You
You hold power to influence culture change, starting in your sphere of influence—team meetings, recruitment panels, or feedback sessions. Model the leadership behaviours you wish to see: openness, self-reflection, and proactive allyship.
12. DEI: A Business Imperative, Not a Trend
Equity, inclusion, and belonging are fundamental drivers of organisational performance, not just social justice. Make the business, moral, and cultural case for DEI at every opportunity.
Action Steps:
Start a dialogue in your organisation about barriers to inclusion.
Conduct a “rock and fence” audit: who needs more support, and which fences need tearing down?
Encourage personal stories—host listening sessions or forums for lived experience to be shared.
Equip leaders and managers with practical tools for inclusive decision-making and hiring.
Sign up for DEI workshops or align your personal development plan with culture change objectives.
Read Celeste’s book, “The Truth About Equity,” for further actionable guidance.
Challenge yourself: what “fences” have you never noticed before?
And most of all: Be you—the world will adjust.
By embedding equity by design, you’re championing Positive People Experiences and seeding a culture change that benefits everyone—now and for generations to come.
Outro
Thank you, dear listener, for tuning into The Inclusion Bites Podcast and our journey into Equity by Design, Positive People Experiences, and the realities of culture change. Your ongoing support drives these bold conversations forward.
To stay updated, please like this video, subscribe to our channel, and share your thoughts below. For more inspiration and resources, visit:
Let’s build a more equitable, inclusive world together—one bite at a time.
Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive - Joanne Lockwood
Root Cause Analyst - Why!
Certainly. Let us apply the ‘Five Whys’ root cause analysis to a major problem raised in this episode: The widespread misconception that diversity hiring equals lower standards and preferential treatment, leading to DEI pushback and organisational resistance.
1. Problem Statement
Organisations frequently perceive diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts—especially around hiring—as lowering standards or giving unfair advantage to certain groups.
2. Why Does This Problem Exist?
Because many hiring managers and employees believe that hiring diversely means selecting candidates who are less qualified compared to traditional or incumbent profiles.
3. Why Do People Believe Diversity Candidates Are Less Qualified?
This stems in part from biases and assumptions about what the ‘ideal’ candidate looks like—often unconsciously shaped by past hiring patterns where the successful candidates fit a majority demographic.
(As described by Celeste Warren, when recruiters present a diverse candidate slate, managers often interject “I want to make sure they’re qualified”, presuming that diversity somehow compromises quality.)
4. Why Are These Biases and Assumptions being Perpetuated?
Because organisations have not sufficiently challenged or reframed traditional success profiles, and there is a lack of intentional education regarding the value of difference. Job specifications frequently reflect the avatar of the dominant group, and criteria are implicitly skewed toward traits held by incumbents.
5. Why Haven’t Organisations Challenged Traditional Success Profiles and Educated on the Value of Difference?
There is an ingrained organisational culture, shaped over years or even decades, that prioritises conformity and past success over innovation and inclusivity. This is reinforced through unspoken rules, habitual behaviours, and a lack of courageous questioning from leadership. Additionally, diversity, equity, and inclusion themselves have become ‘toxic’ or misunderstood terms, facing rhetorical opposition in political and social spheres.
Summary of Root Causes
Implicit Bias: Deeply held beliefs about what a qualified candidate looks like.
Historical Hiring Patterns: Success models based on the demographic of previous incumbents.
Unspoken Organisational Culture: Reluctance to challenge legacy thinking and systems.
Inadequate Education: Poor efforts to explain the true purpose and benefits of DEI, as outlined by Celeste Warren.
Societal Narratives: Anti-DEI rhetoric that confuses or misleads about the aims of such initiatives.
Suggested Solutions
1. Facetious Education and Reframing
Implement foundational, ongoing education for all staff on unconscious bias, the spectrum of diversity, and evidence-based benefits of inclusivity.
Use practical analogies such as the “rocks and fence” illustration ([see transcript]) and explain equity as acts that address barriers, not as preferential treatment.
2. Transparent, Evidence-led Recruitment Processes
Design candidate specifications around competencies, values, and potential, not just on historical demographic success patterns.
Encourage hiring managers to articulate what ‘qualified’ means objectively, and refer every candidate against those standards alone.
3. Culture Change Initiatives
Facilitate open forums for exploring the ‘Five Whys’ regarding resistance, allowing teams to air and challenge assumptions in psychologically safe settings.
Encourage young talent (especially Gen Z) to keep asking ‘Why?’ about inherited practices, as their courage can drive evolution.
4. Leadership Modelling
Senior leaders must visibly support and model equity by design, recognising and calling out outdated or exclusionary thinking.
Managers should engage with diverse candidates and colleagues, building affinity and trust beyond demographic boundaries.
5. Communication and Transparency
As Celeste Warren states, rebranding DEI is not the answer; instead, articulate its true meaning plainly: diversity as difference, inclusion as belonging, and equity as opportunity.
Address anti-DEI rhetoric with facts and pragmatic explanations, demonstrating that properly implemented DEI benefits everyone (“a rising tide floats all boats”).
In summary: The misconception around diversity hiring is a surface symptom of entrenched organisational and societal bias. If we dig deep, its roots lie in unchallenged legacy systems, poor education on equity’s true meaning, and lack of courageous leadership. The solution is not to rebrand, but to clarify, educate, and role-model DEI as genuine levers for fairness and sustainable organisational success.
Canva Slider Checklist
Episode Carousel
Slide 1:
Are we designing equity… or just talking about it?
What does true inclusion look like when barriers go deeper than policies?
Slide 2:
Growing up as the daughter of the first Black teacher and principal in a steel mill town, Celeste Warren learned not just to survive, but to change systems — one courageous conversation at a time.
Slide 3:
Imagine if organisations nurtured talent by meeting people where they are, not just ticking boxes. Real equity isn’t about lowering standards; it’s about removing hidden fences so every person can thrive.
Slide 4:
Why do some still believe hiring for diversity means choosing “second best”? Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren break down the myths and reveal how legacy thinking shapes who gets opportunity — and who doesn’t.
Slide 5:
Ready for bold insights and honest answers on building equity by design?
Tune in to Inclusion Bites Podcast, Episode 212 — Equity by Design.
Listen now: seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#InclusionBites #EquityByDesign
6 major topics
Equity by Design: Six Inclusion Insights from My Conversation with Celeste Warren
Meta Description: Discover six enlightening views on equity by design, marginalisation, authentic belonging, recruitment bias, generational shifts, and rebranding DEI, through a rich dialogue rooted in lived experience and pragmatic solutions.
When I sat down with Celeste Warren, our conversation travelled far beyond the surface and deep into the heart of creating equity by design. We explored not only the challenges, but also the operational realities of building truly inclusive environments from both personal and organisational perspectives. In this meeting of minds, “equity by design” emerged not merely as an abstract principle, but as a practical, actionable mission—one capable of transforming systems and individuals alike. Here are six major topics we navigated with curiosity, candour, and the determination to drive change.
The Power of Origin Stories: Identity, Resilience, and Equity by Design
Celeste’s childhood in Pennsylvania provided my curiosity with a vivid tapestry—her father, trailblazing as the first Black teacher and principal, transformed family dinner into lessons in dignity, strategy, and resilience (02:04). As Celeste relayed her father’s drive to overcome adversity by example rather than complaint, I was struck by how equity by design is often seeded in lived experience. How do these domestic narratives fuel the courage required in professional settings? What might we risk losing if we neglect intergenerational wisdom while building resilience in today’s fast-paced, social media-driven age? Equity, here, is stitched not only through policies but also through the personal stories that instil grit and possibility.
Navigating Marginalisation: The Burden and Blessing of Representation
The conversation turned to the stark realities for those from marginalised or minority backgrounds—how equity by design can feel like an endless negotiation between one’s true self and societal acceptance (11:14). Celeste described the tightrope she and others must walk, constantly vigilant not to fulfil negative stereotypes yet determined not to shrink. This balancing act is exhausting, but also reflective of an unjust extra load borne by those outside the “majority.” Can true equity ever be achieved until these systemic burdens are lifted from minoritised individuals? What would happen if everyone, regardless of identity, could step into spaces with the same confidence and freedom to be themselves?
Authentic Belonging: Navigating the Fine Line Between Self and Accountability
A major theme was authenticity—how equity by design isn’t simply about “bringing your whole self,” but understanding the accountability that comes with it (15:00). We dissected the challenge of being authentic without disregarding the responsibility to treat all colleagues with dignity and respect. I found myself pondering: Where does the boundary lie between self-expression and professional decorum? When does authenticity become self-indulgence? In a world yearning for authenticity, we must also reckon with the collective norms and values that hold equitable cultures together.
Bias in Recruitment: Challenging Default Demographics and “Second Best” Myths
Our discussion of hiring practices laid bare the insidious biases embedded in recruitment processes (24:03). Celeste illustrated how requests for “diverse slates” often trigger assumptions that candidates from different backgrounds are less qualified—a myth that undermines the entire premise of equity. How do we recalibrate our view of the “ideal candidate” to genuinely value lived experience, empathy, and belonging alongside technical expertise? Is it time to shift criteria away from default demographics and towards deeply inclusive metrics that benefit organisations in more meaningful ways?
Generational Shifts: Innovation, Organisational Culture and Systemic Change
As our conversation drifted toward generational perspectives, I revelled in Celeste’s optimism about the younger cohorts’ willingness to question, reimagine, and innovate (37:24). Equity by design is challenged by ingrained organisational culture, but Generation Z and Millennials bring boldness, constantly asking “why” and refusing to accept the status quo. Could their persistent curiosity be the lever that finally shifts outdated norms? If we encourage questioning and nurture innovation, might we finally rewrite the rule book on belonging and inclusion for good?
Rebranding DEI: Understanding Equity by Design Beyond Acronyms
Celeste and I tackled the controversial idea of “rebranding” diversity, equity, and inclusion (45:52). Rather than changing the terminology, Celeste advocates helping people deeply understand equity by design in clear, pragmatic terms. Why should we mask or dilute the very essence of inclusion simply because it has become politicised? If we stay true to the foundational meaning—celebrating differences, fostering belonging, and providing opportunities—could the pendulum of public opinion swing back towards genuine, collective benefit?
Conclusion: Igniting Change with Equity by Design
My meeting with Celeste Warren reinforced just how central “equity by design” is to meaningful change. From origin stories and recruitment biases to generational innovation and the honest reckoning with authenticity, the path towards inclusion requires both bold ideas and everyday actions. If we wish to drive sustainable transformation, we must recognise that equity by design is not just a policy—it is a living practice rooted in empathy, courage, and relentless questioning. Are we ready to make every conversation count? Let’s connect, reflect, and inspire action—one story, one challenge, one act of inclusion at a time.
For more, join our movement at https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen and reach me directly at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Together, we’ll amplify inclusion and foster genuine equity by design in every sphere.
TikTok Summary
🚀 Ready to rethink inclusion and equity? Dive into #InclusionBites with Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren as they spill all on building cultures where everyone thrives – no shortcuts, no excuses! From breaking down barriers to owning your story, this episode is packed with real talk, bold truths, and actionable insights you won’t want to miss. Tap the link and catch the full episode 🎧👇
https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen
#EquityByDesign #DiversityMatters #InclusionPodcast #RealChange #HereToDisrupt
Slogans and Image Prompts
Certainly! Drawing from the compelling dialogue and insights within this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, here are memorable slogans, soundbites, and quotes perfect for merchandise, branded content, or hashtag campaigns. Each item is accompanied by a detailed AI image prompt to maximise its desirability and emotional resonance.
1. "Be You. The World Will Adjust."
AI Image Prompt:
A confident, diverse person standing tall in a vibrant urban setting, with the slogan “Be You. The World Will Adjust.” boldly overlayed. The character radiates authenticity and resilience, surrounded by subtly faded silhouettes representing societal norms, which appear to be shifting to accommodate the individual. The style should be modern, inclusive, and empowering, featuring warm, welcoming colours and an air of optimism.
Hashtag Recommendation: #BeYouTheWorldWillAdjust
2. "Everyone Wins When You Get Equity Right."
AI Image Prompt:
A dynamic illustration of a group of people of different backgrounds standing on equal ground, with sun rays breaking through a symbolic barrier in the background. Above the gathering, the phrase “Everyone Wins When You Get Equity Right” gleams in bold, elegant type. The people are exchanging high-fives and smiling, embodying unity, collective achievement, and hope.
Hashtag Recommendation: #WinningWithEquity #EquityByDesign
3. "Ignite the Spark of Inclusion."
AI Image Prompt:
A stylised matchstick or torch being lit, with tiny sparks radiating outward morphing into icons representing diversity (genders, ethnicities, abilities, pride flag). The phrase “Ignite the Spark of Inclusion” swirls around the flame in bold, hopeful lettering. The scene should be bright and evocative, using glowing yellows and warm oranges to symbolise the catalysing effect of inclusivity.
Hashtag Recommendation: #SparkInclusion #InclusionIgnited
4. "Build Trust. Break Barriers. Belong."
AI Image Prompt:
Three hands of different skin tones clasping together over a broken concrete wall, sprouting green vines and flowers to signify new growth and connection. Above the hands, in powerful type: “Build Trust. Break Barriers. Belong.” The image should evoke a feeling of transformation and collaboration, using earthy but vibrant tones.
Hashtag Recommendation: #TrustBreakBelong #BarrierBreakers
5. "Legacy Is Change You Leave Behind."
AI Image Prompt:
An evocative image of a shadowed figure walking a path through a school or community space, with footprints morphing into blooming flowers and growing trees. Emblazoned in the sky above: “Legacy Is Change You Leave Behind”. The illustration should blend realism with a touch of magic, inviting reflection and inspiration.
Hashtag Recommendation: #LeaveALegacy #LegacyOfChange
6. "Meet People Where They Are."
AI Image Prompt:
An open field with diverse individuals standing at various vantage points, each spotlighted with gentle light beams as they take steps toward a shared horizon. The words “Meet People Where They Are” drift above in soft, welcoming script. The composition reflects empathy, support, and collective movement.
Hashtag Recommendation: #MeetThemWhereTheyAre #EquityInAction
7. "This Too Shall Pass."
AI Image Prompt:
A serene river meandering through a changing landscape — winter on one side, blossoming spring on the other — with the phrase “This Too Shall Pass” gently floating above the water. Include diverse figures on the banks, contemplating, moving forward, signifying endurance and hope for social change.
Hashtag Recommendation: #ThisTooShallPass #EnduranceForInclusion
8. "A Rising Tide Floats All Boats."
AI Image Prompt:
Stylised boats of many colours and shapes on a bright blue sea, steadily being lifted by a shimmering tide. Each boat carries joyful, diverse passengers, and above, the phrase “A Rising Tide Floats All Boats”. The image should radiate optimism, solidarity, and growth.
Hashtag Recommendation: #RisingTideForAll #FloatAllBoats
9. "Equity By Design."
AI Image Prompt:
Blueprint-style illustration overlaying a diverse group of people collaborating on constructing a bridge labelled “Equity”. Elegant architect’s diagrams and gears are woven into the background, with “Equity By Design” as the centrepiece in crisp lettering. The overall effect is modern and purposeful.
Hashtag Recommendation: #EquityByDesign #BlueprintForInclusion
10. "Foster A More Inclusive World, One Conversation At A Time."
AI Image Prompt:
A round table with people of all backgrounds engaged in lively discussion, surrounded by glowing, interconnected speech bubbles. The phrase “Foster A More Inclusive World, One Conversation At A Time” is woven through the bubbles in a thoughtful, friendly font. The illustration should evoke warmth, openness, and progress.
Hashtag Recommendation: #EachConversationCounts #InclusiveWorld
All of these quotes derive directly from the spirit and language found in the episode, ensuring authenticity and resonance with both podcast listeners and those seeking a bold statement of inclusion, equity, and positive change. Each is designed to be visually striking and to create genuine connection both on merchandise and in digital campaigns.
Inclusion Bites Spotlight
Celeste Warren joins host Joanne Lockwood in "Equity by Design," this month's featured episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, bringing decades of insight at the intersection of strategy, accountability, and belonging. As a renowned Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion strategist, author, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting, Celeste’s work is defined by her commitment to connecting heart and strategy—translating complex ideas about equity into practical, actionable models that leaders can utilise today.
Through candid conversations, Celeste shares a deeply personal backstory, charting her journey from growing up in a pioneering Black family in Pennsylvania—with her father as the area's first Black teacher and principal—to her own career advocating for systemic change and authentic representation. Her wisdom is rooted in lived experience, resilience, and an unwavering belief in the power of designing equity intentionally, rather than leaving it to chance.
This episode invites us to re-examine the nature of bias, affinity, and inclusion—exploring how marginalised voices have historically borne the burden of representation, and why authenticity must be grounded in dignity and respect, rather than unfiltered expression. Celeste dismantles myths about DEI, challenging assumptions that diversity hiring equates to lowering standards, and reframes equity as a foundational, pragmatic approach for organisational excellence. Her vivid analogy of the "rocks" and "fence" illuminates the need for tailored support whilst striving to remove systemic barriers, ensuring all individuals can truly participate and thrive.
Celeste’s call to "be you—the world will adjust" resonates throughout the conversation, encouraging everyone to bring their fullest selves to work and life, without the exhausting need to conform to narrow expectations. Her discussion underscores the critical importance of mindset change across the spectrum, from those empowered by legacy to those still overcoming historical limitations, and insists that building trust, allyship, and future-focused perspectives is integral to sustainable progress.
Tune in to this episode for a nuanced exploration of how equity can be not just a principle, but a pragmatic design—one that benefits all. Whether you lead teams, support DEI efforts, or simply wish to deepen your understanding, Celeste Warren's insights offer timely guidance for fostering true inclusion and advancing positive transformation.
Read more and listen at Inclusion Bites Podcast.
YouTube Description
YouTube Description – Inclusion Bites Podcast: "Equity by Design"
Are you still clinging to the idea that treating everyone exactly the same will build a fair world? Challenging that myth head-on, this episode of Inclusion Bites with Celeste Warren exposes why “equity by design” is the true game-changer for diversity, inclusion, and belonging—destroying the status quo and reshaping how we all think about opportunity and justice.
Host Joanne Lockwood welcomes diversity, equity, and inclusion strategist Celeste Warren to reveal why progress for marginalised groups isn’t just “preferential treatment”—it’s strategic, vital, and beneficial for everyone. Through vivid personal stories, including the moving legacy of Celeste’s father, and sharp business analogies, the discussion unpacks why simply putting everyone on the same starting line misses the invisible obstacles faced by many due to race, gender, or background.
Key Insights:
Understand the difference between equality and equity—and why embracing individual needs is essential for genuine inclusion.
Discover how legacy systems and cultural bias keep people marginalised, and why tearing down these "fences" benefits entire communities and organisations.
Learn from real-world examples of recruitment bias and why hiring for “fit” unconsciously perpetuates exclusion.
Find out why the rhetoric against DEI is short-sighted and how a pragmatic, human-centred approach builds resilient, thriving businesses and societies.
Takeaways & Actions:
Feeling inspired? Reflect on your own biases. Challenge how “business as usual” limits access for others. Recognise the hidden advantages you might not even see—and become a genuine ally by helping dismantle those systemic barriers. If you’re a leader, rethink your recruitment frameworks to value lived experience alongside technical skills. Most importantly, remember: be yourself—the world will adjust.
Expect to leave this episode seeing equity work not as a threat, but as a necessary rebalancing that lifts everyone up. How will you act differently to foster true inclusion?
#EquityByDesign #InclusionBites #DiversityMatters #Belonging #DEI #LeadershipDevelopment #InclusiveCulture #UnconsciousBias #SocialChange #LegacyOfInclusion
Subscribe for more bold conversations that disrupt, inspire, and equip you to drive real inclusion. Explore all episodes: Inclusion Bites Podcast
Connect with Joanne at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Continue the conversation with Celeste: book link, website, and contact details inside the episode.
10 Question Quiz
Inclusion Bites Podcast – Episode 212: "Equity by Design" Quiz
(All questions are based on the comments and insights provided by the host, Joanne Lockwood)
1. What does Joanne Lockwood describe as the primary aim of the Inclusion Bites Podcast?
A) To entertain listeners with stories
B) To challenge the status quo and drive change
C) To provide technical training
D) To share celebrity gossip
2. According to Joanne Lockwood, what is essential for listeners to do as they engage with the podcast?
A) Compete for prizes
B) Passively listen
C) Connect, reflect, and inspire action
D) Submit advertisements
3. In the introduction, Joanne Lockwood mentions inclusion involves creating a world where participants not only belong but also __?
A) Travel
B) Eat together
C) Thrive
D) Compete
4. What does Joanne Lockwood encourage listeners to do to join the ongoing conversation?
A) Post on social media
B) Write letters to politicians
C) Reach out via her email
D) Comment on YouTube
5. Joanne Lockwood suggests that challenging norms requires us to __?
A) Avoid discussing difficult topics
B) Weaponise our characteristics
C) Uncover the unseen and share stories
D) Focus only on business results
6. When discussing generational changes, what concern does Joanne Lockwood express about the current generation compared to previous ones?
A) They are too focused on sports
B) They lack resilience and robustness
C) They don’t care about education
D) They have better technology
7. When referencing affinity bias, how does Joanne Lockwood suggest people build trust?
A) By ignoring differences
B) By sharing personal stories and getting to know people
C) By hiring only similar individuals
D) By enforcing strict rules
8. What does Joanne Lockwood identify as a major burden on people from marginalised backgrounds?
A) Needing to behave in ways that make them acceptable to others
B) Access to sports clubs
C) Opportunity to travel abroad
D) Learning new languages
9. According to Joanne Lockwood, what misconception exists about diversity hiring?
A) It avoids hiring white candidates
B) It means hiring the second-best as diverse candidates are perceived as less competent
C) It leads to higher salaries for everyone
D) It reduces the workload
10. What does Joanne Lockwood assert is important when creating job specifications for recruitment?
A) Focusing only on technical skills
B) Considering lived experience, empathy, and compassion
C) Avoiding personal traits
D) Hiring the fastest candidates
Answer Key and Rationales
1. B – The primary aim is to challenge the status quo and drive change, as stated in multiple introductions (Joanne Lockwood welcomes listeners “to spark change” and “uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo”).
2. C – Joanne Lockwood emphasises connecting, reflecting, and inspiring action as essential listener behaviours (“let's connect, reflect and inspire action together”).
3. C – The host states the aspiration that participants not only belong, but thrive (“create a world… everyone not only belongs, but thrives”).
4. C – Joanne Lockwood encourages listeners to reach out to her via email, jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk (“Reach out to... to share your insights or to join me on the show”).
5. C – Challenging norms involves uncovering the unseen and sharing stories (“uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within”).
6. B – She worries if newer generations possess the resilience and robustness to challenge and stand up for themselves ("I sometimes wonder whether our modern generation are being brought up with that level of resilience and robustness").
7. B – Building trust, according to Joanne Lockwood, is achieved by knowing people's stories and capabilities (“…when you start to become comfortable and know someone's storey, no one's capability, then…you can start to trust”).
8. A – The major burden is the need for marginalised people to behave in ways acceptable to others (“it's incumbent upon them to behave in a way that makes them acceptable to others”).
9. B – The misconception is that diversity hiring means hiring 'less competent' or 'second-best' candidates (“belief that hiring for diversity means hiring for second best because you're hiring somebody who is perceived to be less competent because they're diverse”).
10. B – Joanne Lockwood highlights the importance of empathy, compassion, and lived experience in crafting job specifications (“...empathy, compassion, lived, experienceable to communities... is actually more important than pure technical skill”).
Summary Paragraph
Drawing from Joanne Lockwood’s guidance in the “Equity by Design” episode, listeners are invited to challenge the status quo and drive positive action within their organisations and communities. The podcast is founded on the principles of connection, reflection, and sparking change, aiming to create environments where people don’t just belong—they thrive. Joanne Lockwood encourages direct engagement through dialogue and sharing stories, emphasising the role of resilience and the importance of understanding others to build trust. She candidly points out the burdens faced by marginalised individuals and calls for recognising the true value they offer, beyond superficial diversity metrics. By dispelling misconceptions around diversity hiring and focusing on holistic recruitment approaches—valuing lived experience, empathy, and compassion—the episode sets a framework for genuine inclusion and equitable opportunity.
Rhyme Scheme and Rhythm Podcast Poetry
Equity by Design
In wintry towns where steel once shone,
A household gathered, tales were sewn,
A father, first to cross the line,
Brought wisdom home, intent to shine.
He faced the stares, the parents parked,
Yet trust replaced their hearts once marked.
Adversity, with patient care,
Was met with action, never despair.
From stories shared across the board,
Resilience deep within was stored.
The world may test, may draw divide,
But strength resides where hearts confide.
Be proud, be true, in values stand,
Let dignity guide every hand.
“We shape the rocks beneath our feet,
So all may rise, so all compete.”
For equity, a vision clear:
Not preference, but access near.
A fence may block so many eyes,
Yet fairness builds and barriers rise.
Some see beyond, some need more stone,
Each act of trust is deftly honed.
Meet people where they start their quest,
Then lift together, do your best.
The myths that say “second best” apply—
Dismantle them, let truth reply.
Skills and worth, in every frame,
Not shaped by faces nor by name.
From job spec dreams to lived insight,
A tapestry of worth takes flight.
Authenticity must blend with care—
Respect and value, always fair.
Layoffs loom, the tide can shift,
Minority voices lost adrift,
Let history speak, the warning clear—
A pendulum swings year to year.
The lessons learnt at kitchen’s side,
Become the pulse of changing tide.
So who will thrive when fences fall?
Empower minds, uplift us all.
Let every voice and talent blend,
Justice and trust: on these depend.
Be bold, disrupt, let action grow,
Challenge tradition, let new flow.
To see inclusion reach its height,
We join as one, each day and night.
If these words inspire your view,
Share the journey—subscribe anew.
With thanks to Celeste Warren for a fascinating podcast episode.
Key Learnings
Key Learning and Takeaway
The central insight of this episode, "Equity by Design," is that equity is not about preferential treatment, but about removing barriers and meeting individuals where they are—so everyone can access opportunities and thrive. True equity requires both practical acts (or “rocks”) and the simultaneous dismantling of systemic obstacles (“fences”), paired with a shift in mindset and behaviours across society. It’s not enough to focus solely on short-term fixes; sustainable inclusion demands deeper changes in attitudes, legacy biases, and organisational culture—for both marginalised and majority groups.
Point #1:
The Weight of Representation
Individuals from marginalised backgrounds often shoulder the burden of having to “prove” themselves and make themselves palatable for acceptance in majority settings, whereas those from majority groups typically enjoy a freedom to simply “be.” This imbalance is exhausting and must be addressed through better understanding and inclusive practice.
Point #2:
Acts of Equity versus Systemic Barriers
Using the metaphor of rocks and fences, Celeste Warren illustrates how equity involves pragmatic steps to level the playing field today (acts of equity), alongside the longer-term strategy of dismantling institutional barriers (systemic isms). Both are necessary to move towards genuine justice and inclusion.
Point #3:
Mindset and Behavioural Change Are Critical
Even after barriers are removed, lingering mindsets (both among the marginalised and the privileged) continue to shape outcomes and reinforce inequity. The episode highlights the necessity of rewiring beliefs and encouraging active allyship—not just passive tolerance—if organisations and society are to realise the full benefits of inclusion.
Point #4:
DEI Is Not Broken—It’s Misunderstood
Rather than rebranding or apologising for diversity, equity, and inclusion, Celeste Warren advocates for a simpler, more pragmatic explanation and better education around its meaning. When explained in terms of meeting people where they are and providing what they need to succeed, it resonates with everyone and shows that getting equity right benefits all.
Book Outline
Book Outline: Equity by Design — Insights from the Inclusion Bites Podcast
Title Suggestions
Equity by Design: Building Trust, Overcoming Barriers, and Creating Change
The Colour of Resilience: Navigating Equity by Design
Beyond Barriers: Equity, Inclusion, and the Path to Belonging
Acts of Equity: Design Principles for Inclusive Success
Book Structure
Introduction
Setting the Scene
Introduce the concept of equity by design as a guiding principle for modern organisations.
Open with formative experiences of growing up in a household where witnessing adversity and systemic barriers was normalised, but resilience and positive action were emphasised.
Highlight the value of integrating personal history with practical strategy to challenge inequity.
Chapter 1: Foundations of Resilience
Subheadings:
Early Lessons from Adversity
The Dinner Table Doctrine: Turning Struggle into Strategy
Overcoming Identity Barriers
Summary:
Examines the formative impact of family stories, particularly witnessing a trailblazing parent pave the way through discrimination in the workplace. Explores how daily conversations fostered resilience, self-worth, and the imperative to act rather than succumb to systemic disadvantage.
Quotes/Examples:
“…he didn’t just complain; he showed us what he did about it. That was ingrained in me — don’t let adversity limit your ambition.”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Timeline graphic showing generational progress in equity.
Interactive Elements:
Reflection prompts: “How did your upbringing shape your response to adversity?”
Chapter 2: The Burden of Representation
Subheadings:
The Weight of Minority Expectations
Navigating Stereotypes and Double Standards
Shifting from Survival to Authenticity
Summary:
Explores the exhausting tightrope walked by individuals from marginalised backgrounds, pressured to represent entire groups and conform to external standards. Discusses the legacy of carrying generational weight and the necessity to embrace individuality.
Quotes/Examples:
“Be you. The world will adjust.”
Story: A black teacher slowly building trust not through confrontation but by consistent excellence.
Suggested Visual Aids:
Diagram showing the interplay between identity, expectation, and self-actualisation.
Interactive Elements:
Exercises on affirming one’s authentic value and “unlearning” imposed stereotypes.
Chapter 3: Authenticity and Accountability
Subheadings:
Defining Real Authenticity
The Role of Respect and Accountability in Inclusion
Navigating Organisational Culture: Unfiltered vs. Professionalism
Summary:
Differentiates between unfiltered self-expression and responsible authenticity. Highlights the importance of maintaining dignity and respect in professional environments, outlining how to balance individuality with organisational norms.
Quotes/Examples:
“Treat people with dignity and respect. If your authentic self can’t do that, perhaps you’re not in the right place.”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Case studies contrasting positive and negative displays of authenticity.
Interactive Elements:
Self-assessment checklist for respectful authenticity.
Chapter 4: Challenging Biases in Hiring and Advancement
Subheadings:
Deconstructing the Myth: Diversity Hiring vs. Competency
The Power of Lived Experience in Selection
Bias Interventions: Pragmatic Steps for Progress
Summary:
Addresses widespread misconceptions that equate diverse hiring with lowered standards. Illustrates, through real-world anecdotes, how unconscious biases shape perceptions of competence and how to challenge them for more equitable outcomes.
Quotes/Examples:
“Those skills and capabilities can be embodied in people of all identities…”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Flowchart of a bias-free hiring process.
Interactive Elements:
Roleplay: Challenge your own candidate preferences.
Chapter 5: The Equity Model — Rocks and Fences
Subheadings:
Visualising Equity: The Deloitte Illustration Explained
Acts of Equity vs. Structural Change
Teardown the Fence: Removing Systemic Barriers
Summary:
Introduces the equity-by-design model using the “rocks and fence” analogy, demonstrating the necessity of short-term equity acts while planning for long-term systemic change. Explores what impedes progress and how to educate those who are unaware of invisible barriers.
Quotes/Examples:
“The person on one rock never sees the fence in front of them… it’s about helping them understand what others face.”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Custom diagram of the rocks and fence analogy.
Interactive Elements:
Reflection questions: “Where is your ‘fence’ in this model? What do you need to overcome it?”
Chapter 6: The Mindset Challenge — Internal Barriers
Subheadings:
The Impact of Generational Conditioning
Breaking Cycles of Self-Limitation
Cultivating Belief Beyond Adversity
Summary:
Explores how marginalisation is internalised, leading to persistent underbelief and self-censorship even when external barriers are lifted. Uses the “monkeys and ladder” story as analogy for inherited limitation, examining what it takes to shift collective and individual mindset.
Quotes/Examples:
“All of this mindset and behaviour change needs to occur — it’s not just about removing the fence; people must believe it’s gone.”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Cycle diagram showing generational beliefs and interventions.
Interactive Elements:
Exercise: Identify and challenge a learned limitation.
Chapter 7: Structural Inequities in the Workforce
Subheadings:
Case Study: Black Women and Disproportionate Layoffs
The Canary in the Coal Mine: What Marginalisation Signals for All
The Role of Opportunity and Aspirational Guidance
Summary:
Presents data and personal observations on how structural inequities, such as layoffs targeting black women, reflect broader societal trends. Proposes proactive steps for individuals to analyse their industry and prepare for future changes.
Quotes/Examples:
“What happens to minorities is a pre-telling of the way the country will go…”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Chart of employment trends by demographic group.
Interactive Elements:
Career mapping activity for proactively identifying future opportunities.
Chapter 8: Early Intervention — Changing the Narrative
Subheadings:
The Influence of Teachers, Parents and Cultural Signals
Overcoming Early Bias in Education
Building Aspiration from the Beginning
Summary:
Emphasises the role that early education, parental guidance, and teacher biases play in shaping the aspirations and limitations of children, advocating for early intervention and systemic change to encourage ambition and equity.
Quotes/Examples:
“It starts early — with parents, teachers, education systems…”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Infographic of bias touchpoints in childhood development.
Interactive Elements:
Parent/teacher guide: Encouraging ambition and resilience.
Chapter 9: Rethinking DEI — Language, Meaning, and Forward Motion
Subheadings:
Beyond Acronyms: Communicating the Essence of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
Meeting People Where They Are
Weathering the Pendulum: Sustaining Progress Amidst Backlash
Summary:
Argues against superficial rebranding of diversity, equity and inclusion, advocating for deeper education and plain language to convey meaning. Recognises the cyclical nature of social progress and encourages persistent, practical engagement.
Quotes/Examples:
“Don’t call me something else. I am proud of who I am… meet me where I am.”
Suggested Visual Aids:
Timeline of DEI trends and societal responses.
Interactive Elements:
Group discussion starers: “What does equity mean in your context?”
Conclusion: Equity by Design — The Unifying Path
Summary:
Reiterates key insights: resilience gained from adversity, the need for mindset and behaviour shifts, and the imperative of acts of equity alongside systemic change. Stresses that genuine equity benefits everyone.
Call to Action:
Encourages the reader to self-educate, act as an ally, and ensure that both personal and collective steps are taken to design a more equitable future.
Interactive Elements:
Action plan builder for equity in personal and professional settings.
Refinement and Feedback Process
Draft review by subject-matter experts in diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Beta reader feedback focusing on accessibility, relevance, and engagement.
Edit for clarity, narrative flow, and impactful transition between chapters.
Chapter Summaries
Foundations of Resilience:
How family conversations and role models fostered strength and responsiveness to adversity.The Burden of Representation:
Navigating the pressures faced by minorities to be “acceptable,” and the impact on well-being and self-actualisation.Authenticity and Accountability:
Defining true authenticity within organisations and promoting dignity through responsible communication.Challenging Biases in Hiring:
Debunking myths about diversity recruitment, providing practical steps to overcome unconscious bias.The Equity Model:
Understanding and applying acts of equity, and the structural changes needed for lasting transformation.The Mindset Challenge:
Addressing internal barriers that persist even after external ones fall, and shifting collective beliefs.Structural Inequities:
Examining real-world cases where inequity persists and why proactive strategies matter, especially for the most affected.Early Intervention:
Highlighting the importance of early bias, education, and the role of parents and teachers in fostering aspiration.Rethinking DEI:
Advocating for clarity and education over euphemistic rebranding, and weathering social pushback with practical, inclusive strategies.Conclusion:
Summarises the journey from adversity to equity and calls upon the reader to engage actively in designing a future where everyone wins.
Endnotes and Resources
Further reading recommendations.
Links to cited research, diagrams and practical tools.
Ready for review and feedback before manuscript drafting.
Maxims to live by…
Maxims of Equity by Design:
Embrace Difference as Opportunity: Celebrate the diversity of people, perspectives and experiences—these are assets that strengthen communities and organisations.
Meet People Where They Are: Understand the unique circumstances, barriers and aspirations of others before offering support or creating pathways.
Value Lived Experience: Recognise that personal histories and identities contribute vital insight and empathy; these should be valued alongside technical skills.
Build Trust through Consistency: Earn trust by acting with integrity and reliability, particularly when facing adversity or unfamiliarity.
Challenge the Status Quo Thoughtfully: Adopt a posture of inquiry—ask “Why do we do this?”—and be open to reshaping entrenched systems and behaviours.
Model Respect as a Foundation: Treat all individuals with dignity and respect, and expect nothing less from those around you.
Seek Equity, Not Favouritism: Provide support tailored to individual needs, recognising that equality sometimes requires differentiated action, not uniformity.
Be Authentically Yourself—Responsibly: Express your true self, but balance authenticity with accountability, filtering out disrespectful or harmful conduct.
Reject Bias and Assumptions: Question stereotypical expectations, especially those related to qualifications or identity. Challenge your own assumptions.
Enable Others to Thrive: Aspire not only for your own success but for the collective flourishing. Advocate and act so others are enabled—not just included, but empowered.
Don’t Carry Others’ Prejudices: Resist internalising the limitations or stereotypes placed upon you. Your identity is a source of value, not a barrier.
Give Space for Active Allyship: If you benefit from systemic advantage, educate yourself, broaden your awareness of hidden barriers, and actively participate in removing obstacles.
Foster Resilience through Community: Draw strength from shared narratives, learn from adversity, and use your story to inspire and mentor others.
Remember—Change is a Journey: Societal and organisational transformation demands patience, persistence and adaptation. It does not occur instantly, and it involves both structural and psychological shifts.
Educate Without Apology: Champion the principles of inclusion, equity and belonging openly, articulating their value rather than diluting or hiding them to appease discomfort.
Hold Fast to Hope: Recognise that progress can be cyclical and slow, but believe in the possibility of a future where everyone sees beyond fences and rock piles, and works together to widen opportunity for all.
Resist Limiting Mindsets: Encourage aspiration from the earliest moments—in yourself, in children, in colleagues—and help dismantle mental barriers as fiercely as external ones.
Participate in the Conversation: Equity and inclusion are not spectator sports. Commit to ongoing dialogue, learning, and advocacy in your spheres of influence.
Live these maxims, and help architect a world where equity is not merely designed—but embodied and lived.
Extended YouTube Description
Inclusion Bites Podcast | Equity by Design: The Real Path to Inclusive Cultures with Celeste Warren & Joanne Lockwood
Welcome to another enlightening episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast! In this week’s conversation, host Joanne Lockwood welcomes Celeste Warren, DEI strategist, author, and founder of Celeste Warren Consulting. Together, they tackle the realities and myths of equity by design and share practical wisdom on creating truly inclusive workplaces.
⏰ Timestamps for Easy Navigation:
00:00 – Introduction & host welcome
01:19 – Meet Celeste Warren: Her DEI journey & childhood inspiration
04:03 – Lessons on resilience & growing up as a minority
09:06 – Building trust, affinity bias, and overcoming being the ‘Other’
11:14 – The weight of representation & the exhaustion of marginalised groups
15:00 – Authenticity vs. unfiltered behaviour at work
16:45 – Responding to DEI pushback and the value of civil discourse
18:42 – What equity really means in workplace culture
25:18 – Smashing the “diversity means less qualified” myth
29:31 – Equity in action: The fence & rocks analogy explained
37:26 – Generational change and breaking workplace inertia
41:52 – Layoffs, representation, and minority impact: The canary in the coal mine
44:05 – The roots of workplace inequity: Education and social barriers
45:52 – Does DEI need a rebrand or a rethink?
48:14 – Connect with Celeste & actionable resources
50:01 – Closing thoughts & calls to action
Podcast Overview & Key Takeaways
In this episode, DEI experts Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood dive fearlessly into what it truly means to design equity into workplace cultures. You'll discover:
Personal Insights:
Celeste shares a powerful backstory of growing up as a minority in the U.S., the legacy of her trailblazing father, and firsthand lessons on resilience, trust, and breaking barriers.Understanding Equity vs. Equality:
Using clear analogies (like the renowned rocks-and-fence visual), they demystify how equity effectively meets people where they are, tackling unseen barriers without lowering standards or resorting to tokenism.Challenging Myths:
The duo address and debunk common misconceptions, such as the myth that pursuing diversity means sacrificing competence or quality.Authenticity at Work:
Explore the balance between bringing your whole self to work and maintaining respect, professionalism, and accountability—plus, why inclusion is not about being unfiltered.Navigating Pushback:
Hear expert strategies for handling resistance to DEI initiatives, explaining their importance in a way that unites rather than divides.Systemic Barriers and Real-World Impact:
Learn why minority women, especially Black women, are disproportionately affected by layoffs and what this signals for the broader workforce.Practical Solutions and Allyship:
The discussion is packed with actionable guidance on fostering trust, allyship, and sustainable change in any organisation.Resources for Further Growth:
Celeste points listeners to her book “The Truth About Equity” and highlights ways to stay engaged and continue learning.
How These Insights Benefit You
HR Professionals & People Leaders:
Gain deep, practical understanding to drive more equitable hiring, retention, and progression in your teams.Diversity & Inclusion Champions:
Equip yourself with clear language, real-world analogies, and rebuttals to help win hearts and minds.Anyone in the Workplace:
Learn how to be a more effective ally, challenge your own biases, and help build a culture where everyone can thrive.Long-Term Strategy:
Discover how to futureproof your organisation by unlocking the power of diversity and inclusive design.
🎬 Next Steps & Calls to Action
Subscribe for more bold, actionable conversations on creating inclusivity and positive people experiences!
Visit: seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen for more episodes, resources, and guest information.
Contact Joanne: Share your story or join a future episode — email: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Read Celeste’s Book: Find “The Truth About Equity” on Amazon & Audible for even deeper learning.
Watch Another Related Video: Check out our episode on Belonging at Work for further inspiration.
#EquityByDesign #InclusionBites #DiversityAndInclusion #DEI #InclusiveWorkplace #EquityInTheWorkplace #WorkplaceCulture #JoanneLockwood #CelesteWarren #Belonging #BreakingBarriers #Allyship #LeadershipDevelopment
Empower your journey — one bite at a time!
Substack Post
Building Equity by Design: Lessons in Trust, Belonging, and Real Change
What would it look like if every individual in your workplace genuinely felt seen, valued, and set up to thrive? It’s a question that continues to resonate across corridors of power in HR, L&D, diversity and inclusion, and at every level where the ambition to build truly inclusive cultures meets the messiness of lived reality.
We know the struggle: meaningful equity isn’t achieved through token gestures or well-meaning posters. It demands systemic shifts, trust-building, and a deep reckoning with how ingrained norms can either dull or ignite human potential.
This is where the latest episode of Inclusion Bites Podcast, “Equity by Design,” comes in—a conversation brimming with real-world wisdom and reminders that equity is as much about the small, daily actions as the grand strategies. I had the privilege of sitting down with the exceptional Celeste Warren: strategist, author, and a beacon for equity with three decades of hands-on experience. Together, we cut to the heart of what it takes to design equitable systems that not only talk a good game, but deliver on the promise of inclusion and belonging.
Lifting the Lid on Equity: What This Episode Explores
If you’re working to move your DEI practice from intention to impact—particularly within HR, talent management, or organisational learning—this episode is your toolkit in audio form.
In “Equity by Design”, I speak with Celeste Warren, founder of Celeste Warren Consulting, about practical frameworks for lifting barriers to opportunity. Our dialogue ranges widely—from stories of personal and generational resilience, to the ways in which social structures nudge (or shove) certain people onto the margins, to what real, proactive allyship looks like.
Highlights include:
Celeste Warren’s deeply personal account of growing up as the daughter of her area’s first Black principal, and the dinner table lessons that shaped her resolve.
How organisations often fail to grasp the difference between equality and equity, and why rebalancing opportunity must be designed, not left to chance.
The ‘rocks and fence’ metaphor—a powerful visual illustration of how systemic barriers persist, and what’s truly meant by “levelling the playing field.”
Dissecting the pushback against DEI initiatives—especially the myth that equity is about lowering standards or handing out ‘preferential treatment.’
Reflections on the burdens placed on marginalised individuals, and the unsung labour required to “be acceptable” in spaces designed without them in mind.
Celeste Warren’s expertise radiates throughout, but what struck me most is her insistence that sustainable change is slow-burn, requiring both honest conversation and courageous action.
What I Learned: Practical Lessons for Today’s Inclusion Leaders
These are not just theories for the ivory tower. Here are insights you can weave into your leadership, policy, and conversations—starting now:
1. Meet People Where They Are—and Build from There
True equity means recognising that not everyone starts from the same point. Instead of offering identical support, hone in on what individuals need to overcome systemic obstacles—whether that’s through tailored development opportunities, sponsorship, or by challenging legacy processes that unwittingly narrow the “ideal candidate” profile.
“Equity isn’t about preferential treatment. It’s about meeting people where they are, understanding the barriers they face, and taking intentional steps to help them flourish.”
2. Change is Both Personal and Systemic
The journey to belonging requires more than policy tweaks. We must attend to the inner work—supporting marginalised voices as they navigate centuries of exclusion—while also dismantling external barriers: biased job specs, unwritten ‘fit’ criteria, and cultural habits inherited over generations.
Are you—are your managers—putting as much focus on psychological safety and trust-building as on process?
3. Stop Confusing Equity with Lowered Standards
One of the most stubborn myths in recruitment and promotion is the belief that hiring for diversity means “settling for less”. We tackle this cliché head-on, challenging decision-makers to visualise their “ideal” candidate and interrogate whether the image is based on real needs or unconscious bias.
Next time someone voices concern about “lowering the bar,” invite them to rethink what truly matters: technical aptitude, yes, but also empathy, lived experience, and a knack for connecting across difference.
4. The Isms Must Be Named and Tackled—Systematically
We discuss how invisible “fences”—racism, sexism, homophobia, and more—are baked into societal and organisational life. Committing to equity means not only providing support “rocks” for those facing the highest barriers, but steadily chipping away at the fence itself. Both short-term and long-term strategies matter.
5. Trust Is the Foundation Everyone Needs (But Not Everyone Has)
Marginalised colleagues are so often expected to trust change will endure—sometimes after a lifetime of being let down. Conversely, those in privileged groups may not even see the barriers others face. Bridging this gap requires more than good intentions; it demands consistent, transparent action, and ‘allyship’ that doesn’t clock off at the first sign of discomfort.
See (and Hear) for Yourself: A Moment That Matters
Curious to hear these ideas brought to life? I’ve selected a powerful, one-minute excerpt from our conversation—a moment that distills much of what’s at stake when we talk about “equity by design.”
🎧 [Watch the Audiogram Here] (insert-video-link)
Experience the heart of the episode—then reflect: how would you react if you were asked whether you truly see the ‘fence’ that others struggle with every day?
Your Invitation: Join the Movement Towards True Equity
Ready for the full conversation? I promise you’ll walk away with both a sharper DEI lens and a few practical strategies for moving the needle in your organisation.
👉 Listen to “Equity by Design” here: https://url.seech.uk/ibs212
If you find resonance in what you hear, please share this episode with your HR colleagues, line managers, and anyone searching for a better way forward. Real inclusion travels fastest word of mouth—through people willing to speak up, challenge the status quo, and model what’s possible.
And if you’ve already seen change efforts stall in your organisation, why not use this episode as a catalyst for deeper, braver discussions at your next team meeting?
Where Will You Stand—On the Rocks, or Dismantling the Fence?
So, here’s my question for you: In your corner of the world, how might you move from “tinkering at the edges” to actively designing equity into the very heart of your culture?
If we each grab an oar, as Celeste Warren reminds us, it won’t just be the marginalised who rise—all our boats will float higher.
Let’s work together to build workplaces where nobody is left standing on the outside, rocks or fences in sight.
Until next time,
Joanne Lockwood
Host, Inclusion Bites Podcast
Inclusive Culture Expert at SEE Change Happen
Connect and stay inspired:
Questions or feedback? I’d love to hear from you: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
What’s the next shift you’ll spark for equity, inclusion, and belonging in your world?
1st Person Narrative Content
Equity by Design: From the Dinner Table to the Boardroom
“There is power in living as your full self, but liberation is only possible when the world stops asking you to carry the extra weight.” That’s a realisation I’ve returned to time and again throughout my personal and professional life—and it’s a thread that ran tightly through my recent conversation with Joanne Lockwood on Inclusion Bites.
Let’s be clear: the way we design for equity in our organisations, our communities, and our society at large isn’t just a question of policy. It’s visceral. It’s generational. It’s shaped by our lived experiences—and by the stories of those who came before us. Each of us brings a distinct set of challenges, opportunities, and (sometimes invisible) hurdles to the table. Yet, the path to a world where everyone belongs and thrives demands not just bold talk about inclusion, but brave, strategic action.
This isn’t abstract for me. I grew up at the frontline of social change, seated at a dinner table where my father—often the first Black teacher or principal his town had ever seen—used our family’s humble meals as a classroom. Through his stories, I learned what it meant to carry both the burden and the opportunity of being “the first.” I learned first-hand how dignity, resilience, and strategic action are intertwined. And I internalised, from a young age, that true equity is never accidental. It is always by design.
Why Does Equity by Design Matter So Deeply?
Equity, to me, is more than a buzzword. It is the invisible architecture holding up (or holding back) the possibility of human flourishing. I’ve dedicated my career to helping leaders see that architecture, pick out its flaws, and methodically—sometimes painfully—redesign it for the future we want, not simply the one we inherited.
That’s why, when Joanne Lockwood invited me to join her on Inclusion Bites, I felt a deep alignment. The Inclusion Bites Podcast—led with vision and uncompromising curiosity by Joanne, a renowned inclusion strategist and advocate—offers not just a platform for conversation, but a powerful engine for transformation. Joanne has spent years challenging norms, cultivating space for difficult stories, and guiding leaders and organisations to see inclusion as their competitive edge. She doesn’t shy away from complexity; she embraces it.
More than [INSERT_VIEW_COUNT] people have already watched our interview on YouTube, with many more tuning in via Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
If this conversation sparks something for you—questions, pushback, or agreement—I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments below. I read every one.
Navigating Two Worlds: Lessons Forged at the Dinner Table
My earliest lessons in equity were not in boardrooms, but in a small steel town in western Pennsylvania, as the daughter of a pioneering Black educator. My father was the first in many rooms. Each evening, after work, he would return home—not to vent about injustice, but to pull his children into strategic dialogue.
When my mother would ask, “How was your day?” it wasn’t a perfunctory question. It was an invitation to bear witness. My father would recount the obstacles he faced, the suspicion he encountered, the ways he was “othered.” But always, he would pivot: “And here’s what I did about it.” We weren’t simply being raised with stories of adversity; we were being trained in resilience and proactive problem-solving. The colour of my skin, my gender, my identity—they would present challenges, he told us, but they were never excuses.
That kind of upbringing was both a gift and a heavy mantle—the sense that you are, by necessity, both messenger and change agent. Joanne, ever insightful, flagged the tension inherent in this: “It seems such a burden on people who are from marginalised, minority, voiceless backgrounds… It’s incumbent upon them to behave in a way that makes them acceptable to others in order so they can get the change acted.”
She’s absolutely right. For decades (centuries, really), the expectation was that those of us from minority backgrounds would carry not only our dreams but also the weight of representation. It’s neither fair nor sustainable. These days, my message to the next generation is unequivocal: Be you. Let the world adjust. That’s not about disregard for context or respect, but it is a refusal to shrink yourself to appease the comfort of others. Especially in environments that pride themselves on belonging—if you can’t be yourself there, where can you?
Authenticity Versus Accountability: The Fine Line
There is a great deal of rhetoric these days about “bringing your whole self to work” and “authenticity at all costs.” I’ve seen first-hand—over decades as a Chief Diversity & Inclusion Officer in global corporations, and in advising countless leaders—the dangers of confusing authenticity with entitlement or lack of accountability.
As I explained to Joanne, authenticity does not give one licence to be unfiltered or to disregard the fundamental requirement to treat others with dignity and respect. “If the true you isn’t someone who can treat people with dignity and respect, well, that you needs to go somewhere else, because that’s not foundationally the culture we nurture within the organisation.” It’s as simple—and as complex—as that.
We need clear organisational boundaries—honest, humane, and shared. Joanne captured the dilemma perfectly: “There’s a fine line between being authentic and being unfiltered, isn’t there? You need to be accountable for your authenticity as well.” In high-performing, inclusive organisations, showing up as your genuine self also means understanding and respecting the shared values of the collective.
Unpacking Equity: Beyond Rocks and Fences
Much of my work today revolves around demystifying equity for leaders—moving it from abstract aspiration to pragmatic strategy. One metaphor that’s always resonated with me is the “rocks and fence” illustration popularised by Deloitte. Imagine three individuals attempting to see over a fence. In the first scenario, each is given the same-sized rock, but only one can see over. In the true equity scenario, each person is given exactly what they need—some get more rocks, some less—so that everyone gets a clear view.
But what’s profound, and often overlooked, is the fence itself—the wall that was always invisible to those who could see over it. The real work is pulling down that fence. That’s the long game of eradicating systemic “isms” like racism, sexism, homophobia. In the interim, acts of equity (the extra rocks) are necessary for access and opportunity, but until we address the roots, the system stays rigged.
Joanne pressed me on this point, connecting back to the issue of mindset: “Part of the challenge… is the internalisation, the ingrained mindset of somebody who has been brought up in a marginalised community, experienced marginalisation, discrimination themselves. How do we re-engage them?... We’ve also got to help enable people. There’s even more equity—we’ve got to give them self belief, isn’t it?”
I couldn’t agree more. Once the barriers are removed, the work is only half done. Both the previously advantaged and previously marginalised must undergo deep mindset shifts. The privileged need to see, often for the first time, what was once invisible; the marginalised need courage to seize opportunities without fear of invisible punishment. That is real equity by design—structure and psychology working in tandem.
The DEI Backlash: Owning Our Language and Our Power
We live in a volatile era for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI)—one marked by vocal pushback, weaponisation of language (“DEI must die”), and a public narrative often divorced from the work’s actual intent. Joanne raised the scepticism organisations exhibit, the myth that “hiring for diversity means hiring for second best.” This is the lie at the heart of majority anxiety. It’s not the loss of quality, but the shifting of comfort.
I have tackled this resistance head on in executive recruiting meetings. Too often, when a recruiter promises a “diverse slate,” the hiring manager’s retort is, “As long as they’re qualified.” My response remains blunt: “Why did you feel a need to say that?” The underlying bias is the presumption that diversity equates to a lowering of the bar. It’s fundamentally false. Competence does not wear one identity.
Joanne’s challenge is one I have issued time and again to leaders: reimagine your “ideal candidate.” Too often, that ideal is unconsciously modelled on the incumbent demographic. But the real power lies in designing specs—and cultures—that value the full spectrum of talent: technical skill, empathy, lived experience, adaptability, and more.
Navigating Social Change: The Pendulum and the Canary
No equity conversation is complete without reckoning with broader social dynamics. The recent surge in layoffs disproportionately impacting Black women in the United States is not, as Joanne rightly intuited, a mere coincidence. It’s a canary in the coal mine—a warning that the very roles most susceptible to budgetary squeezing are those historically filled by minorities who never received the long-term sponsorship to ascend to more insulated positions.
Many Black women are also choosing to leave hostile environments out of self-preservation. This is about more than jobs—it’s about the psychic toll of constant vigilance, the microaggressions that erode health and confidence, the tired calculus of whether the next fight is worth waging. The pattern plays out wherever marginalisation sits at the intersection of vulnerability and expendability.
The pendulum swings. Times of social activism provoke conservative backlash; cycles repeat. The test for resilient cultures—within organisations and nations—is whether they institutionalise progress or let it slip away with the swinging tide.
Raising the Floor for All: Mindset, Education, and Sustainable Systems
So where do we go from here? The answer, to me, begins at home but is enacted in the systems we build. Early educational bias—all those subtle nudges that put girls or Black children on divergent paths—must be unlearned at every level, starting with parents and teachers. We must nurture aspiration, but also ensure the system offers genuine access to the future careers that will matter.
It’s tempting to suggest a rebrand—to move past the “toxic” label of DEI and rename our work to appease the uncomfortable. But I reject that notion. I refuse to apologise for being a Black woman; I am not interested in being relabelled to suit someone else’s convenience. The problem isn’t the words, but the willingness of those in power to do the hard work of understanding—of owning both the responsibility and the promise of inclusion. In my experience, when you strip DEI back to its pragmatic core—differences in people, fair access to opportunity, and a culture of respect—lightbulbs go off. That is where genuine transformation starts.
As I told Joanne, the storm will pass. The pendulum always reverses. What matters is whether we are building structures and stories that can withstand the next swing—and ensuring that, when we talk about “everyone winning,” we mean everyone.
Where We Go Next: Courage, Design, and the Work of Our Time
I am often asked, “When will equity work be done?” My answer: It is never finished. Building truly inclusive, equitable cultures is not about single acts or slogans—it’s about reengineering our defaults, day by day. It’s about grappling with inherited constraints, equipping ourselves and others with new mindsets, and embracing the discomfort of change.
As I look back on the arc of my life—from that steel town dinner table to global conference rooms and, most recently, to the candid, energising hour with Joanne Lockwood—I see a single, golden thread: True equity is an act of courage and design, not of convenience or compliance.
If there is one thing I hope you take from this reflection, it is this: You have more power than you realise to alter the architecture of equity in your sphere. Whether you are the “first” like my father, a majority stakeholder, or somewhere in between, the invitation is the same—bring your full self, ask hard questions, and join the long, necessary work of building a world where everyone truly thrives.
If this conversation strikes a chord—or if you wish to challenge or deepen the dialogue—I invite you to add your voice below. Every comment furthers the design; every new question sharpens the blueprint for our shared future.
Song Lyrics from Episode
[Title
Rocks and Fences (Equity by Design)]
Synopsis
Episode 212 — Stemming from “Equity by Design,” this song channels the raw, lived wisdom of [Celeste Warren, who learned resilience, dignity, and hope at her father’s kitchen table. It unpacks the burden and beauty of being your true self, the invisible fences we’re taught not to see, and the patient power of steady, generational change. Crafted in hopeful indie-pop tones, it is a call to action — and to healing.]
[Vibe
Acoustic guitar fingerpicking, subtle piano, pulsing kick drum for momentum. Atmospheric synth pads add warmth; gentle slide guitar flirts with country. Female vocal, direct yet rich with emotion, delivers verses softly, crescendoes in the chorus and finale, then lays back for a reflective, spacious fade-out. Instrumental breaks invite quiet reflection and resolve.]
Lyrics
[Verse 1]
Sat round the table, stories in the smoke,
Dad said, let the world see who you are.
He came home tired, wore the weight, never broke,
Taught us rising means bearing a scar.
Parking lot lessons, trust slowly grown,
Their eyes on him, but he stood tall and known.
[Verse 2]
If you’ve always seen past the fence,
You can’t feel the cold on the other side.
Keeping balance on a rock feeling tense,
Wondering why some must hide.
We’re taught to walk thin lines,
To hold our breath through tougher times.
[Pre-Chorus]
But voices break patterns,
Courage demands space.
We start breaking the cycle
With each honest face.
[Chorus]
Build the trust, tear the fences down,
Let the rocks crumble on the ground.
Our stories, our hope — let the world adjust,
Every soul deserves to be found.
It’s not just about changing minds —
It’s letting every heart belong.
[Instrumental Break]
[Guitar riff on melody, echoing the ‘fences down’ motif. Simple handclaps, warm pads swell. Slide guitar sighs the pain, then lifts.]
[Verse 3]
We are canaries, singing warnings in the mine,
Bearing the brunt before the world even knows.
But I’ll wear my own name, draw my own line,
Be you, the world will adjust — so it goes.
Learned to trust the kindness we sow;
Change takes time, but tides overflow.
[Bridge]
You can build your world on kindness,
Or keep the walls you’ve known.
But if you never look at fences,
You’ll miss the seeds you’ve grown.
Justice is a garden —
You have to believe it’s your own.
[Final Chorus (Lifted, fuller)]
Build the trust, tear the fences down,
Let the rocks crumble on the ground.
Bring your whole self, let the world adjust,
Every soul deserves to be found.
Lift each other when we feel alone —
No one should bear the weight alone.
[Instrumental Outro + Fade]
[Piano and guitar trade lines over a soft rhythmic pulse. Voices in gentle harmony on the phrase: “Let the fences fall, let the gardens grow… let every story be told…” Repeat and slowly fade, pads lingering, like hope that won’t let go.]
[Artistic direction:
In performance, let the vocals remain conversational, slightly breathy in the verses, affirming in the chorus, and almost spoken-word in the final fade — as if you’re passing on hard-won wisdom at your own kitchen table. Let restraint speak as much as the build, and leave plenty of space between lines for the listener to breathe and reflect.]
Gemini Infographic Material
In the Inclusion Bites episode "Equity by Design," Celeste Warren—a seasoned DEI strategist—joins Joanne Lockwood to demystify the practical foundations of equity, the lived realities of marginalised individuals, and the disruption caused by equity initiatives. The conversation centres on pragmatic models for organisational inclusion, the structural barriers to equity, and shifting DEI mindsets.
1. Equity Defined: Not Sameness, but Access
Equity ≠ Equality: Equity means meeting people where they are by identifying and removing barriers, not providing identical resources.
Access to Opportunity: True equity gives all individuals what they need to reach shared organisational goals, recognising different starting points.
2. The Burden of Representation
Minority Weight: Marginalised individuals often must prove their worth to be accepted—behaving above reproach to challenge stereotypes—unlike those from majority groups.
Authenticity vs. Accountability: Being your true self is essential, yet this must coexist with respect for others; authenticity cannot be an excuse for harmful behaviour.
3. The "Rocks and Fence" Model of Equity
The Analogy: Organisational barriers are like a fence blocking the view. Equity is represented by "rocks" that help people see over the fence.
Visible vs. Invisible Barriers: Majority groups may not perceive obstacles because they have always had access, leading to resentment at targeted equity measures.
Disruption and Education: Putting equity into practice will disrupt comfort. Achieving true equity requires educating majority groups about structural barriers (“the fence”) and fostering active allyship.
4. Mindset Shifts for Sustainable Inclusion
Breaking Generational Conditioning: Both majority and minority groups internalise their social position; removing barriers alone isn’t enough—people need support to adapt to new realities.
Trust and Psychological Safety: Centuries of exclusion mean trust-building is essential. Marginalised groups must believe the system genuinely supports them before fully participating.
5. Reframing DEI Conversations
Against Rebranding: The issue isn’t the terminology but misunderstanding its meaning. Diversity means difference, inclusion is belonging, equity is access—these must be explained in practical, not tokenistic, terms.
Long-Term Commitment: Equity and inclusion are not quick fixes. They require continuous learning, dialogue, and evolution within teams and organisations.
Summary Table: Core Concepts of Equity by Design
Key Takeaway: Equity by design is pragmatic and strategic. Success relies on recognising and dismantling barriers, supporting cultural and mindset transformation, and holding all individuals and leaders accountable for building sustainable, inclusive environments.
Hubspot Import format
Episode,Title,Published (pubDate),Link,MP3 URL,Podfollow Link,MP3 Length (bytes),MP3 MIME,Duration (itunes:duration),Hosts,Guests,Subtitle (itunes:subtitle),Summary (itunes:summary),Chapters URL,Transcript URLs,GUID,Guest Email(s),Primary Topic,Secondary Topic,Intersection Themes,Newsletter Segment(s),IB Episode Line,IB Episode Link,IB Summary Line,IB Transcript URL
212,Equity by Design,,,,,,,,Joanne Lockwood,"Celeste Warren","Discover how equitable design transforms organisational culture and unlocks everyone’s potential.","Joanne Lockwood hosts diversity, equity, and inclusion expert Celeste Warren for an in-depth exploration of how equity must be intentionally embedded into organisational systems for real, sustainable change. Drawing from her personal upbringing and decades of experience, Celeste discusses the foundational lessons of resilience, the burden of minority representation, and the challenges of fostering authentic inclusion at scale. The conversation unpacks the difference between fairness and equity, the structural barriers that persist in hiring and progression, and the myths around 'preferential treatment' in diversity hiring. With rich storytelling—including powerful family anecdotes and organisational analogies—Celeste advocates for a new paradigm: meet people where they are, challenge ingrained mindsets, and focus on equity not as a brand, but as a practice. The episode closes with pragmatic steps for cultural transformation and individual empowerment, making a compelling case for why equity by design benefits everyone.",,,,,Workplace Culture & Systems,"Belonging,Authenticity,Allyship,Change & Transformation,Resilience,Confidence & Self-worth,Community & Connection","Leadership & Power,Race & Ethnicity",Culture Change & Belonging,'E212 – Equity by Design','',"E212 – Equity by Design | Discover how equitable design transforms organisational culture and unlocks everyone’s potential. | Joanne Lockwood hosts diversity, equity, and inclusion expert Celeste Warren for an in-depth exploration of how equity must be intentionally embedded into organisational systems for real, sustainable change. Drawing from her personal upbringing and decades of experience, Celeste discusses the foundational lessons of resilience, the burden of minority representation, and the challenges of fostering authentic inclusion at scale. The conversation unpacks the difference between fairness and equity, the structural barriers that persist in hiring and progression, and the myths around 'preferential treatment' in diversity hiring. With rich storytelling—including powerful family anecdotes and organisational analogies—Celeste advocates for a new paradigm: meet people where they are, challenge ingrained mindsets, and focus on equity not as a brand, but as a practice. The episode closes with pragmatic steps for cultural transformation and individual empowerment, making a compelling case for why equity by design benefits everyone.",
Gemini Infographic Material
In the Inclusion Bites podcast episode "Equity by Design," Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood interrogate what equity means when embedded intentionally in workplace and societal systems. Drawing from lived experience, research, and pragmatic models, they debunk misconceptions and illustrate how equity is realised through proactive, structural design—not as afterthought or preferential treatment.
Here is an analytical summary of the core concepts and learning points:
1. DEI: Definitions and Distinctions
Diversity: The visible and invisible differences among people. Every organisation is inherently diverse—robots are not running the show.
Inclusion: The deliberate cultivation of environments where differences are valued and leveraged for a common purpose. Inclusion is the surrounding ecosystem that drives collective accomplishment.
Equity: Proactively meeting people where they are and dismantling barriers to access and opportunity. Equity is not favouritism but bespoke support—tailored steps for each individual, ensuring all can reach the shared goal.
Misconceptions Addressed: Equity is not about lowering standards or treating some groups as “second best.” It’s about recognising that equal treatment does not guarantee equal outcome.
2. Equity by Design: The Fence and Rocks Analogy
Problem: Traditional “equal treatment” (everyone gets the same rock) fails to address hidden barriers (the fence) that block some from opportunity. Those advantaged by the system may not perceive obstacles faced by others.
Agitate: When some receive additional support (“rocks”), it may be viewed as unfair—unless the invisible “fence” of historical bias and systemic barriers is explained and acknowledged.
Solution: Acts of equity are short- and mid-term fixes (extra rocks) that enable all to overcome barriers, while long-term efforts aim to dismantle the fence outright. Equity is ongoing and requires continuous education, trust-building, and allyship.
Outcome: When barriers are removed (“fence gone”), all benefit—not just those previously disadvantaged. A rising tide lifts all boats.
3. The Burden of Representation and Authenticity
Minority Burden: Marginalised individuals feel compelled to “represent” their group and act in ways deemed acceptable, exhausting their energy and stifling authenticity.
Authenticity vs. Unfiltered Behaviour: Being yourself is vital, but must coexist with respect for others. Authenticity is not licence for disrespectful or harmful conduct.
Accountability: Organisations must maintain a culture of dignity and respect; authenticity functions within these bounds.
4. Mindset Shift and Historical Conditioning
Inherited Bias: Generational norms and cultural conditioning (both among minority and majority groups) reinforce mindsets and limit opportunity—often unconsciously.
Breaking Cycles: Systemic change requires both removing formal barriers and addressing deeply ingrained beliefs about capability, worth, and aspiration.
Role of Allies: Those who have always had access (never needed extra rocks) must be educated about unseen barriers and actively support equity strategies.
5. The Pendulum of Progress: Societal Trends
Data: Layoffs and job losses disproportionately affect Black women and other marginalised groups, acting as a “canary in the coal mine” for wider social and economic instability.
Cycles: Gains in social activism and DEI are often met with conservative backlash, but long-term progress depends on resilience and multigenerational change.
Summary Table: Equity by Design Check
Key Takeaway: Equity is designed—not accidental. Sustainable inclusion depends on dismantling both overt and covert barriers, educating all stakeholders, fostering authentic participation within a culture of respect, and continually challenging traditional mindsets.
For further learning, listen to the full episode at Inclusion Bites Podcast or reach out to Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. #EquityByDesign #InclusionBites
Gemini Infographic Material
In the Inclusion Bites podcast episode "Equity by Design," Celeste Warren and Joanne Lockwood dissect the core practicalities and misconceptions surrounding diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). This episode distils decades of expertise into concepts – logical, actionable, and applicable to workplace strategy.
Here is a summary of the core concepts and essential elements of equity by design:
1. DEI Definitions and Misunderstandings
Diversity: The presence of differences—visible and invisible—across people in an organisation.
Equity: Ensuring fair access to opportunities by recognising and addressing individual barriers; equity is not preferential treatment, but tailoring support according to needs.
Inclusion: Creating a culture where all differences are valued and leveraged towards collective purpose.
Misconception: Many leaders wrongly assume equitable processes lower standards or mean undue advantage.
2. The Paradox of "Preferential Treatment"
Problem: Acts of equity (e.g. extra support for some) are often viewed as unfair by those who do not recognise systemic barriers—the “rock and fence” metaphor.
Agitate: Those unaffected by obstacles may only see others receiving support—not the barriers those colleagues face.
Solution: Use clear analogies and evidence to uncover hidden obstacles, making equity visible and logical.
3. The Burden of Representation
On Marginalised Groups: Individuals from underrepresented backgrounds carry an added pressure to prove themselves, to “fit in”, and not be perceived as lowering the bar.
Exhaustion: Continual self-monitoring leads to fatigue, a drain on innovation and authentic contribution.
Mindset Shift: Encourage “be yourself – the world will adjust,” removing the expectation to overcompensate or mask true identity.
4. Authenticity with Accountability
Authenticity: Organisations should want the value of true self-expression but require professional respect—being authentic does not mean unfiltered or disrespectful behaviour.
Boundary: “Business casual” authenticity, not “come as you are”—balance realness with collective dignity.
5. Recruitment Bias and Reimagining Job Specs
Hiring Bias: Recruiting for diversity does not mean hiring “second best”; the skills and competencies sought can exist in any identity.
Rebalancing: Reevaluate candidate ideals—value lived experience, empathy, and community understanding equally with technical skill.
6. Equity as Collective Progress
Disruption: Equity initiatives may feel threatening to those who always had access; they must learn to see the invisible obstacles.
End Goal: Removing barriers benefits everyone—true equity raises standards, fosters creativity, and widens the collective “aperture”.
Summary Table: Equity by Design
Key Takeaway: Equity by design dismantles the myth of preferential treatment and repositions support as a right, not a favour. When equity is well-explained and barriers are explicit, the whole organisation wins—innovation increases, fatigue decreases, and trust is restored.
Made with Castmagic
Turn any recording into a page like this.
Upload audio or video — interviews, podcasts, sales calls, lectures. Get a transcript, summary, key takeaways, and social-ready clips in minutes.
Google
Apple
Or learn more about Castmagic first.
Magic Chat
Try asking