Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to Jo atseachangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show.

So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 114 with the title Kinks and All. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sarah Naylor. Sarah is the businesswoman who, until last year, ran a recruitment agent and also a writer, author, and podcast host in her spare time, I guess. When I asked Sarah to describe her superpower, she said it is her ability to be herself, embracing all of her kinks, wrinkles, full boils, and constantly seeing the positives in everything. Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show.

Hello, Jo, and thank you so much for inviting me along. Absolutely thrilled and honored to be here. It's absolutely brilliant. And when I just heard you repeating my intro then, I thought I ought to change that word because foibles sounds like furballs, and I generally don't have furballs.

But 4 boils are good. I it's a boils. Oh, I'm sorry. I used a bit.

4 boils. I don't have 4 boils either. It sounds like the old Ronnie Corbit sketch. Can I have 4 candles, please?

It's interesting you, you focus on the word 4 boils and not the word kinks. Wow. So tell me about this. Tell me about your kinks and all.

Oh, right. Well, I think, personally I mean, let me let me re rewind some, I don't know, 19 years or so post divorce as I embarked and recognized, I should say, the opportunity to kick start my life and recreate my life and have a second opportunity at it in this lifetime. And I kinda went on a a real fast track personal development journey. I felt like a sponge. I was, like, absorbing absolutely everything, and there was stuff that I'd always been aware of. But once, at the time, during my my sort of marriages, I wasn't aware of because of this the situation I found myself in. However, I started to embark on dating again in my my I'm in my twenties, in my forties, if you like, just saying yes to stuff and going out into the world, which I I I haven't done. Post having having had my son 6 years prior to getting divorced, I'd not been out.

I'd not got a social circle. I'd not got a network. And so I was really exploring everything, and that included me, who I was, who I am, and unlocking, you know, who who I am. And that is all your your kinks, your foibles, your furballs, your, you know, your wrinkles. And in terms of the kinks, you know, yeah. I mean, it's you know, let's let's start to talk about sex. Let's let's talk sex. Why not? You know, and understanding what turns you on, what what appeals to you.

You know, that's about understanding who you are as a person and what you enjoy, and you can only find that out by doing a bit of exploration and embracing those elements of kink. And, you know, what is kink? Kink is something that is not deemed mainstream. It's not deemed the norm. It's something that's a little bit that the normal people would say is is out there, but when you're out there, it's quite normal, if that makes sense. You know? It's about embracing who you are. And when you start to do that, this is where the sort of acceptance of the self, acceptance of others, acceptance of, you know, be just generally accepting people for who they are, but that comes from accepting yourself as well. Because until you start to accept who you are and what things that you like and what things that you don't like, what control do you have when actually you do have control over your behavior because you aren't your behavior, but it's about going on that journey about finding out who you are, what you like, what you love doing, and that comes into those kinky bits too because, hey. You know, it's good.

It's why not? Why not? I I like wearing latex. You know, I've got a latex account with 62,000 followers that I set up a couple of years ago for fun. You know? It's great. It's lovely. You know, I'm most of my time in jeans. I'm in late I'm in Lycra or jeans and don't wear any makeup. Every sort of 4 to 6 weeks, we get dressed up in latex and take some photographs, have some fun, share it, and it's it's all above board. It's just fun.

People want to take it another stage, they can do. You know, we just have me and my partner, we have fun getting dressed up and yeah. It's kinky. Some people like feet. Some people like hands. Some people like Hunter welly boots. You know? It's they're all nature of kinks out there, but embrace yours and have fun.

Oh, it was a long answer. This. No. I'm loving I'm loving it. It's, I said, think about the word kink, and and you talk you use the word normal people. And I'm thinking, actually, wherever whoever we can describe normal as, normal people have kinks. Normal people have things they will never talk about. They won't share.

They're embarrassed. Yeah. Or their their private things in their own bedroom with a partner or or more than one partner or in their own in their own, time. So, yeah, I think we all have something in our heads, an alter ego, a fantasy. Mhmm. It's just that some people are able to share that to the world as you do with your Instagram site, and some people aren't. So why are we so afraid to talk about these, yeah, as you say, kinks?

I think it's because it's society. It's other people's impressions, you know, and it's always people get fearful. People get worried about what people will think about them. You know? It's and this is where the acceptance of the self comes in. Because once you start to accept yourself for who you are, you become more resilient, and what other people think is irrelevant. And if they don't like it, it's it's their stuff. It's not for you to change it's not for you to change to appease anybody else. And that that would if we can we move away from the word kink or kinks, but but literally just look at people being themselves, identifying with who they are, understanding what they are and who they are and what that looks like to them.

Once you identify that, you're gonna live a happier and healthier life as a result. But as you start to if you start to keep on changing who you are to appease other people, that's never gonna work. You're going to be out of alignment. You're not going to be happy. You could end up with sort of different ailments and problems and issues and things like that that are going to cause, yeah, cause you cause you dis disease. You know, you're going to be dis you know, with not in flow with yourself. You're going to be out of your your flow. And when you're in flow, it's when you've accepted yourself.

And then when you come into the kinks, if you're accepting those, it's if if you don't want to share them with the world, that's absolutely fine, but it's understanding and accepting it within yourself. And that's yeah. That is the part of that exploration and understanding about who you are, but not being fearful. And that's why I stepped out really to to walk my talk, because I've always been in part of my whole ethos in terms of my coaching practice, my way of being, and people that come into my orbit. I love encouraging other people to be exactly who they are. Don't worry about what other people think because that is just their stuff. We're all on this planet to learn. We're all in this planet to have this lifetime that we have preselected, I believe, to come in and experience.

And unless we deal with what's delivered to us, we won't progress. And it's that old adage of, you know, you keep doing the same thing, you get the same results. So if you keep on wanting a different life, but you're not making any changes, and you're stuck in that mode of trying to please Bill, Jane, or whoever it is because you think that they'll like you more if you be how who they want you to be, but you'll never appease them because they will always want you to be something else. But you've got to be you for who you are, then you'll attract the people into your life who want to be around you for who you are, not because they you're you're you are who they want. They want yes. You know what I mean? I'm getting wrapped up round my words, but, you know, I've got an issue, unfortunately, with my son who thinks that I should behave a certain way, and I won't. You know, I've had it's been difficult. It's been very, very hard, but I've had to stand my ground.

As a, you know, as a result, we've not spoken for a year, but I cannot be dictated to by my son as to how I should live my life because my life is my life, and your life is your life. How you want to live it is entirely to you. And as long as you are living your life for you from a heart centered perspective and you are not doing anything overtly, deliberately, on purpose to hurt or upset or offend anybody, then that is all your business. You be you because you are gonna forge a way for change for other people. I know from doing my, you know, my account, other people have gained confidence in wearing sort of latex or being themselves more so because, you know, they can once certain people start to see you doing something, then it makes it more accessible to them as well. So it's it's really important that we aren't all sheep. You know? And we're not I don't wanna be Barbie. I don't wanna be Ken.

I don't want to be a cutout, you know, reproduced item. I am me. You know, I remember going back into this into the nineties and working for a a national international, actually, recruitment business, and, then wearing then sort of starting to wear a trouser suit. Now we're talking about I had to conform to that was a that was a Kelly girl, and I had to wear, you know, skirts and a a blouse and sort of little little heeled shoes, that kind of thing. And I thought, no. I I'm gonna wear, you know, I wanna wear trousers. I wore I bought, you know, really nice silk brown trouser suits. I wanted to wear trousers.

I thought, come and beat me up with a stick. You know, I don't you know, I've not got a problem with the the guys wearing skirts. Who says who says what we should wear? Seriously, who is it that makes up these rules, and what is it about a skirt being a skirt in one language Joanne actually it being something completely different in another language? You know, a kilt is a kilt is a skirt. You know, a a a long dress in some in some religions is is called something, but in this it's just ridiculous. Wear what you want to wear and be happy. You know? Seriously, folks. Just be yourself. Does it really matter?

Who cares really? But there's there's still you you talked about yourself. You know? There's there's there's kind of 2 2 demons at play in this sort of something, isn't it? There's there's the embracing yourself Mhmm. And allowing yourself to be explore different sides of you, your kings, your identity, your sexuality, your hobbies, whatever it may be. And then the other side of that is sharing being able to share that with other people. Mhmm. So sometimes we can indulge ourselves as a private thing, whatever that may be, but to tell others. And you mentioned the fact your your son doesn't embrace the whole you at the moment. I mean, I've been through a stage of my life where my daughter didn't embrace the whole of me, and that took a couple of years to work its way out and to resolve when we're there now.

But that that fear of judgment, that fear of rejection, that fear of loss, that fear of getting it wrong, that fear of losing something is really, really powerful and keeps people in their box, in their lane, and behind the wardrobe.

It can do. Yes. If you allow it to. And now this the key is understanding you are in control of your behavior. If you can recognize that it is that that fear as you've called it. But we have control over how we experience the world. But once you actually recognize it for what it is I mean, I I've done a lot of somatic healing because of all the stuff that kicked off for me personally last year that was off the back of my son. I had a lot of other things.

Everything was ambushed me all at the same time last year. I survived. I'm still here. And the the fear fear is something that we had back if we go back historically to living in caves, you you know, you you've got to have that fear to stop you from running out and getting eaten by a bear. And in these days, it stops you from really running out in front of a bus, and you've you know, it's about being mindful about that level of fear. But fear is something that you can create in your own mind, but once you actually recognize it, it's what is the worst that can happen? Seriously, what is the worst that can happen? If it happens, you deal with it. But it's not allowing it to to to freeze you. It's about thinking about what response that you not response.

What outcome you want and how it portrays what you put out is what you get back. So if you're projecting fear, you will attract stuff in that is going to be negative and fearful. When I first opened up my Instagram account, I got some horrific, horrible comments, and it's just like and it's hurtful. You know? It is hurtful. Then he's like, no. Let me get out of my own way with this. This is this is somebody sitting behind, you know, a blank screen. They're not presenting themselves.

They're not stepping out of their comfort zone. They're just sitting there trolling to make themselves feel better. And, actually, that's quite sad because they're clearly deeply sad inside that they feel that by casting aspersions to other people, that is going to make them feel better because their project what what happens is people transfer that stuff to remove it from them. And if you accept it, you're helping them, but actually if you put boundaries in place and go, no. So I would report, block, delete because you don't want it resonating. The minute I see a negative comment, I just delete it. I could respond. Occasionally, I get drawn in to respond and go, Sarah, no.

You're just wasting your energy because these people want to draw on your energy. They want to siphon it. They're energy vampires. They want to suck they want to suck you in to make themselves feel better. Jo. Do you know what? I've got an amazing array of friends these days from having 19 years ago, having started from scratch, literally starting from scratch. I I got any real friends. My one friend had moved to France, one friend was traveling India, and one friend was in Wiltshire or something like that.

Those were the only people that kind of loosely got as friends. But I I kick started my life and and and and have built it up to the where it is today. And I've got friends and contacts globally, and they're brilliant people. And they're people like yourself, Joanne. You know, they're people who want the best for the world. They want a better outcome. They want the world to be a better place, and that's why you're doing what you're doing. It's why I do what I do.

It's through my coaching, and I've got my own podcast. I'm I'm not on Insight Timer as well. I'm creating content on there, and it's all for the greater good. You know? I I want people to be happy. I want people to know that they are they don't have to live the life that they are living. You can change. You can put a new program into your into your mindset. You go, actually, do you know what? No.

You can once you hear that monkey chat, you go, no. I mean, just Jo. No. What what do I want? And and and it's reframing it, rewording it in a positive manner, using positive scenarios and situations. You know, it's tricking tricking your subconscious. There's the old phrase of fake it till you make it, but there's a there's a truth in that because if you step into we were starting to talk about the quantum now. If you step into that energy flow that is the quantum because there's a myriad of potential opportunities for you depending on what decisions you make. But, actually, if you perceive what you actually want to do in the future, you can and start to act like it's happened already, then it will it will it will track its way in.

But if you constantly think of all the negative stuff, all you'll end up doing is dragging yourself down, giving other people your energy, and feeling like a little sort of lost lost hope in the corner, which is fine. It might be part of your learning. But if you want to progress, you've actually got to take action.

You just said yeah. I I completely resonate with, and I I I was I I actually did an interview on on GB News yesterday discussing a fairly high profile employment tribunal case against a teacher who would not respect one of his transgender pupils. So I'd hold on GB News. I put it on Facebook afterwards. And I I so my friends on Facebook were all kind of like, oh, wow. I couldn't have gone on there. Wow. You know, other trans people and I was, oh, would you wanna go into that that that den of inequity for? What do you wanna go to be bathe in the GP GB News area? So most of the people I knew, who are my friends, were kind of in, I wouldn't do that.

That's too scary for me. How how could I possibly put myself out there? Course, then I went to the GB News website and looked at all the comments that were developing under the under the and I thought, it's almost like playing hate bingo, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tick. You got that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We got that one. Tick.

Thank you. I'll I'll add that one. Oh, you missed 1. Oh, you haven't. I popped them to Twitter this morning. I thought, oh, yeah. Here's here's the here's the rest of the comments on Twitter. And I thought they're all predictable.

And I I've I've kinda got a policy there. You know? I've got I get trolled on YouTube, my channels. Every everywhere I go, I get trolled on it, and to some degree, TikTok. And I've kind of developed this kind of I just leave it. I just I I I I leave the comments there because other people need to see them as well. Mhmm. And for me, it it's it's people who are positive towards me, towards what I do, and how I do it, need to see my lived experience about what I wake up to Mhmm. And what my notifications on my phone pop up.

They jump into my head all this time. So I can I can frame it as graffiti and just drive past it and ignore it? I don't I don't internalize most of it. Because most of it, they they don't know me. It's not personal. It's just they just get say to the world, aren't they? Mhmm. So yeah. But it's it does take a little bit of personal I'm not gonna say the word courage, whatever that may be, vigor, determination, confidence to be able to do this. And most people step back and go, oh, wow.

You I could do what you do. And that that that's that's the barrier a lot of people face, isn't it?

It is. And I think there's a lot to do with this the I mean, if we're coming back down to sort of spirit and soul, it depends where you are in your soul journey. And I think, you know, there are different levels of how many lifetimes, what you've lived through, what you want to learn, and then some people want to some people come into the lifetime to trigger other things in other people. So the stuff that people do I mean, it's a it's a hard one to thing to sort of digest, but people that do things that are bad then are creating as an opportunity for other people to learn, to evolve, and to get, you know, go through that so that they are playing their part in this. And it's just a big computer game. I'm just convinced we're in a big computer game, you know, John. I really do. It's like Yeah.

Who knows? Who knows? I do you know what? This is this is a funny thing. I've I've gone completely off topic now, but I watched it off documentary many, many years ago, and it really sort of struck a chord with me because I saw it was this it was about the water coming back to some big desert area or canyon or something like in the states. And I thought, you know you know, you sort of talk about microcosms and, you know, whatever. Yeah. That that that sort of that pot of water, you know, let's say it's like a a a plate full of water. To that plate full of water, those microscopic animals, not animals. I don't I don't know the word. Or organisms.

Microcosmos. That'll do. Yes. Organisms as opposed to orgasms, that's something else. We'll go back to sex afterwards. But organisms in the water, for them, what they can see, that is their world, isn't it? That is their world. But, actually, that that pot of water is just as it gets bigger, it gets bigger, it gets bigger. And that they are just within a big pond, then it becomes a lake.

It becomes an ocean. It becomes but they have no concept of anything beyond that. And aren't we the same as that? We are just this sort of dot in this huge, huge context of everything, and we we don't know what we don't know because we can't see it. But because we can't see it doesn't mean it's not there, but we're all energy. We are made up of more energy than we are matter. So it depends on where we are on this sort of this mortal coil right now as to how we behave. However, we do have that control over our behavior and anybody that is fearful. Just try stepping out of that comfort zone.

Because the comfort zone, it isn't it's a silly word for it really, isn't it? Because it's not a comfort zone at all. It it's a it's a it's a zone that doesn't really take you anywhere. It keeps you doing the status quo. And if you're happy with that, that's absolutely fine. However, if you want something to be different, you do have to step out. I mean, last year, my business went into administration. My my son stopped speaking to me to sell my car to pay my mortgage. Yeah.

It was pretty brutal last year, but survived. Still here. Hello.

Yeah. I've I've I've still got that t shirt somewhere. I've, I've I've been there as well. The you when you get to the bottom, it's it's, there's nothing left. I remember the, the person who came to collect my BMW and put it on the back of a low loader.

Mhmm. He

started inspecting it and saying, oh, there's a chip here, and there's this here, and there's that there. And he said, are you okay? I said, yeah. He said, you're smiling. I said, yeah. I said, I'm just I've just got bust. You know, you could tell me what if you like. It doesn't matter to me. All I want you to do is take the car away.

It doesn't yeah. Just just go for it. Don't don't bother me with this trivia about how much you you're gonna charge me for stuff. It's like, you don't have to get any more money out of me. Yeah. So I kinda laughed. It was like it was like, but people are normally angry with me. I think, well, yeah.

Have a good treat this as your bonus day.

But what what you've demonstrated there is that sort of that surrendering, and that's that's what I had to do probably 2 or 3, 4 times last year. And even just recently, I've had to surrender and get out of my own way, and that is something that is really put important to sort of acknowledge and take note of because we can't we can't control stuff. You know? And and when we try and control things, we're not in flow with our own energy, and that's when you start to come up against resistance. You're going, right. It's not worth it's not happening. It's not how I wanted it to be. Yeah. Well, you might think it's not how you want it to be, but it's how it's meant to be.

So when you kinda go with this flow and I I very much trust now my sort of instinct, my intuition. It's not to say I don't have my moments. Like I said, just recently, I because of all the things that have gone on last year, my my money that I've got is caught up into bricks and mortar. But in terms of a day to day income, it's not where it was, let's put it this way, 3 or 4 years ago. And I I'm used to and I have done for 40 odd years, you know, been able to be completely self sufficient, and I've always been, you know, main contributor to household incomes. And when you're not and when you're reliant upon somebody else, it's kinda like, this isn't oh, this is not this doesn't feel right. You know, I'm used to being able to do this. That and then it was me that got the problem, not my partner.

He was more than happy to continue paying, so he can see what I've contributed in terms of the sort of what we're living in. But that doesn't mean to say it wasn't affecting me, but I had to get out of my own way. And that's where you you surrender, and you you you just let go. And the minute I let go, it's like, you take that pressure off yourself, don't you? Like, you let the car go. You know, I let the car go, and it gave me a pot of money to keep paying the mortgage while we were trying to sell his house and my house so we could actually buy and move. So we weren't hemorrhaging money there. I haven't even got. But as I said, you know, if you don't step out there, if you don't do that and I mean, I could have gone and got another job, but I'm self employed.

I've got I've got my coaching practice. I've got so I've just mentioned earlier, I'm on Insight Timer and got I've got I actually have got another property that's rental income, but that's changed because mortgages have gone up. Thanks, Liz Truss. I'm not really earning as much as that. Not that it was ever a ever a property bought to, to earn an income. I'm a I'm a sort of an accidental landlord as a result of a previous relationship, and we couldn't sell the property then and I took it on. But it is what it is. But, you know, things will evolve.

Things are evolving. It you know, we we spoke prior to, to coming on, didn't we, in recording and about materialism and things that we need and what's sufficient. And, actually, as long as you're happy with life, there's there's so many different ways. Money becomes this is and money's an energy that we need to buy things with to exchange. However, what we've perceived that we need is usually governed by what people are telling us we want through marketing and media and all this sort of stuff. However, if you come back to thinking about yourself and what makes you happy, what really brings me the happiness is like when I went out for a trail run earlier, looking at the blossom on the trees, looking at the blue tits, looking at the nature, just actually being out there with my partner, enjoying it, stopping, taking pictures, having a having a kiss on the road on the track, you know, and just, like, enjoying ourselves. You know? And that's where the most pleasure comes in and doing stuff in the garden. Picking we go to this recycling tip with our garden rubbish, and they've got a shop there and usually end up coming back with more.

But, you know, we talk. Yeah. Because they're they're selling things that go the money goes to charity. But there's some amazing stuff that people chuck out, and we've got some brilliant things for our house now that have cost us nothing. So who who says you need to earn as much as you think you need to earn? Because you can you can acquire things in lots of different ways. It's yeah. It's just how you view. It comes down to perspective.

Yeah. And that that's what we're saying about sufficiency. It's it's realizing that more is not necessarily better. And I Yeah. But a lot of this comes with age, isn't it? I mean, I look back at my life, and I used to say I was in my early fifties, and I said I was in my mid fifties. Now I guess I'm in my late fifties. Yeah. Sometimes next year, I'll be starting with sixties.

So, yeah, it's, it it comes around, but experience comes with Joanne, and you you go through a lot of hard knocks as you grow older. And I'm a I'm a I'm a great believer in that you don't grow and learn by by getting it right. You grow and learn by making mistakes.

Oh, yeah.

And and sometimes sometimes you make the same mistake more than once. But, yeah, it's I think listening to your story and and and how you described a lot of this is some of it's been situational. You you've you didn't predict it. You bumped into it, and, oh, well, yeah, shit happens as they say. And and you just you pick it up and deal with it. And then you become a a serial person who who who is able to cope and deal with these things. Mhmm. And you say, get up, dust yourself down, the weebles wobble, but they don't fall over sort of thing, and you you gotta get back up again.

And as we used to call it in the nineties, I think it was bounce back ability, that resilience that kicks in, isn't it? And that's

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, as you as you say, with wisdom and age, wisdom, experience, you sort of get to a point to go, do you know what? Can't CBA can't be arsed. It's just like Yeah. And you're right. You know, we build up a resilience. You you do what's right for you. This is what say coming back to the sort of the the kinks and the foibles and what have you again.

It's about understanding yourself, accepting yourself, knowing what you like, what you don't like, not being bothered by what other people say. And I think as you are coming through sort of your teenage years into your twenties, you you you're very much you're acutely aware of peer pressure and wanting to fit in and and then sort of going through that sort of development setting, meeting a partner, having a relationship, having kids, and what have you. And you come out the other side and you go, uh-huh. No. I've gotta be me. I'm gonna be me. But it's all part of life, isn't it? Life is life is that journey. It is it's not about the the destination at all.

It's not about the acquiring of material possessions. Saying it's nice to have certain things, you know, but that that should enhance your life and bring you joy as opposed to being acquired and required purely for, you know, greediness or for show or for, you know, for any other reason. You know? I I I not that you would know. I mean, we're recording. You can see me. I haven't got any silver jewelry on. I have got so much silver jewelry. I love jewelry.

When do I wear it? Very rarely these days because you can't wear it when you've got earphones on. And then I've actually got bracelets and things like that on, they clunk when I'm on my keyboard. So I just don't really wear what I've got, but I've got shiny object syndrome. It's like, oh, that's nice. So I I acquire acquire I acquire artwork instead that I can hang on to the walls, and my partner calls the house Sarah's Gallery because I do have a habit of, yeah. Oh, that's nice. In fact, we went and picked a picture up. We'd seen on Facebook massive print for a fiver, and, that's unusual for me because I usually like original pieces of artwork, and the last piece I picked up was a nice little oil painting about, oh, I don't know, what, a 4 size, something like that.

It was £5 as well from the from the recycling center. Hurrah.

Love it. Love it.

And I get I get a bit is what I like to look into and find out about artists. I've got all sorts of things I've picked up in charity shops. So so I'm very much into sort of the whole recycling, repurposing, environmental. You don't need to buy all this stuff from you. The only reason so much is pumped out and manufactured is to line the shareholders' pockets, and all they want is more, more, more, more, more when we don't need more, more, more, more, more, more, and all this more, more, more, more, more is causing all these problems environmentally. It's just madness. It's madness. There could be so many let's get back to sustainability, building things that are gonna last, and, you know, if you want yeah.

We don't need it all, do we? Let's look at things in other ways. Let's look after the planet. It's an amazing planet. It's a beautiful planet. Spend the money on conserving it, not raiding it and yeah.

Yeah. When they when they took my car away, I I I I kind of vowed to myself that I would, never buy another car with finance or never never or any of these balloons or whatever other payment schemes they were. So I went out and bought myself a, I think, an 18 year old convertible. Okay. It's a nice 18 year old convertible. It's a a Mercedes.

Oh, nice.

But when you you talked about life being a journey, I find that with the roof down, every journey becomes an adventure. You know, you're stuck in traffic on the n 25. It's a horrible day. You're stuck going nowhere, but, yeah, you got the roof down, the sun's shining. You're sort of in touch with the world. Okay. Maybe a bit smog and a bit pollution, but, you know, I'm just sort of sitting there with the roof down, music loud, just in my own world, looking at other people in their cars. They're all in this little box.

They're all kind of trapped in. They're all kind of I don't know. But since you're at the roof off, every journey becomes an adventure.

It becomes Joanne amazing.

Journey becomes part of it. And I've had this car, what, 2 years. I had a I had a little convertible Mini before.

Nice. And

it it's it's just it's just the only way to travel. I I my my role basically is it's, it's never it's never the wrong weather to have the roof down except when you're parked. So as long as you I've I've worked out. As long as you're doing more than 50 miles an hour, the rain deflects over the top of the car and you don't get wet. As soon as you drop below 50 miles an hour, you then get start to get very, very wet. So I I drove back from, I think, Birmingham or or further down the a 34, down the m m 42, m 40, all these sort of places. In the pouring rain, I mean, literally, it was heaving it down. And you get a bit of bit of rain going on to the to the passenger and the and the driver's wind side window.

It sort of loops around with the vortex and flicks in your face occasionally. But largely, I was bone dry when I got back. It was only

Oh, awesome.

It's only the traffic lights or the roundabouts that you had to kinda go, do I bottle it? Do I bottle it? No. No. No. I just just push through. So I made it all the way back in the pouring rain. I say, as long as you keep about 55, 60 miles an hour all the way, it's, you stay dry. So yeah. It's

Sounds brilliant. Sounds invigorating. And that's really why we like going out trail running. I mean, at the same today, we went along on a disused, railway along, which we wanted to find out discover, which was nice and flat, made a change. But we're doing park runs, and we go out running along the seafront as well. I don't I won't run on the beach anymore because I did that. Was that last year? I think it might yes. That was when my body was attacked as well because I ran along the beach.

When you got on a camber, and when I went to see the physio, she said, oh, I should see so many injuries from people running on the beach because you you you you can't get that same

Stowman's and yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Jo I won't do that anymore, but we know there's the promenade between Snettershire well, yeah, Snettershire not Snettershire, Heatsham, Heatsham, and Hunstanton that we will run along as well. It's just lovely being outside in nature, and that's why you were saying, you know, with the open, you know, the roof down, and you just you're you're with the elements, aren't you? And that's what's so exhilarating. And I I you know, coming back to the elements, I love the exhilaration of a thunderstorm and when it's properly raining. And I don't you know, this sort of this drizzly stuff that makes you really wet, but you can't really see it. It's not so pleasant. But there's always something. There's always you know, you can always look for the positive and everything.

You know, chucking it down with rain, what can you do instead? Or if it's there's always there's always a positive. Always look for the positive. That's that's me.

Yeah. Before our our financial reboot about 7 or 8 years ago, we used to own a an apartment on the water's edge near Portsmouth. And so we we overlooked Porters' Castle, and it had a big bay in front of it. And I remember we used to sort of stand on our balcony, And then when it was really, really windy, you could watch the seagulls flying backwards because they they just couldn't their air speed their grass speed was just basically pushed back by the wind. And but sometimes you'd stand there in a thunderstorm, a really torrential rain. And the way that the building was constructed, the rain used to stop, like, right on the edge of the balcony. So you'd end up with sheets of rain coming down in front of it, and you'd stand one step back. I've been behind a waterfall.

As you can watch this rain, you can watch the weather, and but it but in the in a sort of relative safety of being back far enough. And I I used to love that, being in touch with nature Mhmm. And being able to touch it, if you like, without being in it. And the other thing I loved about it was, and I'm sure people who live in the countryside or other places realize this, we we your horizon is literally miles away, whereas most people's horizons in their backyard is their fence or the shed or another house or something. But living in a property where the horizon was literally miles away, and you could see out and the boats and the so, yeah, it was like a a screensaver. Every day, it's going on. People digging for bait or the trawlers or

Oh, wow.

Super yachts coming into the marina, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's a it's a lovely place to just be in touch with stuff happening. Yes. Entertainment.

Yeah. It's it's it's amazing. Do you know what's just popped into my head right now as well? That Joni Mitchell song put up put up a parking lot. You know, they and it is it's the paved paradise and put up a parking lot. And it's it's it's just it's mad, isn't it? And that's exactly what we've been doing to the world. And it we've got all this beauty around us, and it's all too quick to to to pave over it or put Tom, I Joanne and and, oh, don't get me on fake grass. It's like, no. Jesus.

No. And, actually, I was listening to the, news on the was it today or yesterday on the radio? And they were talking about, you know, obviously, all the environmental issues. And I think the Thames Water, they were talking about who the the shareholders. The shareholders have probably taken off low 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of pounds don't want to invest any money into it unless they put up the the bills to the local residents by 40%. It's just absolutely outrageous. Anyway, that's that aside, there was somebody that was talking and said that we've got to stop paving over things because when we pave over things that we can't the ground's not absorbing all the rain. This is why there's all the issues because it we need the ground and that all these new builds, it's causing chaos everywhere because the ground's bit you know, all that sort of soakaway area is gone. And we then pave over it, and there's nowhere for the water to go.

Yeah. Speaking of I think it's Thames Water. The, about the boat race this weekend. They're talking about then not throwing the cocks in the water because of all the e coli that's, in this Yeah. In terms of and you were talking about these microorganisms in the water. And, yeah, I I said, I was gonna tell you last night. They had someone at a at a a beaker full of water. So there'd be billions of these E.

Coli bacteria in this water. I said, blimey. That's a yeah. So don't don't, and then went to you in the crew afterwards and said, are you worried about E Coli? And I said, oh, in the moment, we'll just dive in, and we'll be fine.

Yeah. But you know what? I think we've also lived in too much of a sanitized world as well. There's been this sort of, oh, no. We can't have bugs. We've got to sanitize everything. Well, we we need to build up that resilience. We need to have kids have dirt in their fingernails and stick it in their mouth and get it's all part of our bodies building up antibodies and being able to cope and survive. You you just, you know, sort of sanitizing everything.

We we we don't live in that kind of world, do we? You know? And I wouldn't want to live in a hermetically sealed world. Like, you were just talking about other people in the car. I was just sitting there going, you can't see me, actually. I was just pulling a face.

Oh, really?

Driving along.

Sarah holding the steering wheel, putting us like a a a a goofy face. Yeah. That's that's that's the impression of people on the n 25 in their car with the windows up.

Well yeah. Exactly. No. And have you seen how many people grimace when they're driving as well and don't care about other drivers? And the craziness of drivers as well is just like, oh my patience, people. But people are sort of rushed to get places for some bizarre reason. You know? We're not not saying that I I don't like to get to places from time to time. But it's just like if you're stuck in traffic, it's like, do you know what? Clearly wasn't meant to be. It it's meant to be.

Something's holding me back from getting to where I think I want to be at that particular point, but it's holding me back for a reason. And it's understanding that and accepting that that, you know, we'll get there.

Oh, the news has been a story about this, this shopkeeper who bought Easter eggs. And instead of buying a box, he bought a 100 boxes or something. So, you know, he's he's now shipping all over the world. And, well, I think we've we've all probably got a story about how we we want to order some bananas on our Internet shopping. And instead of ordering a bunch, we end up with, 10 bunches or a 100 bunches or something. Now we we've been there as well. The the test goes past on the doorstep with a a box full of bananas going, did you really order these? No. We didn't.

No. We didn't. Just the one, please. We had the best bet. Anyway, over over COVID, my my wife, Marie, she, she did this with the hand sanitizer. She she didn't send it back. So we end up with crates of hand sanitizer everywhere. And, it took a while for Marie to stop being addicted.

I'm used that word addicted to sanitization, where she felt the need to always be rubbing hand sanitizer into her hands, making sure that the the the soap we had on the sink and the bathrooms were all antibacterial. And we we go out shopping, and she would zigzag around shops to the hand sanitizer stations throughout the shops and having a every time she says, I have to do it. I have to do it. And it took her a long while to get used to the idea that she she could exist in the world naturally without having to sanitize. And it's we do. We get caught up in this. Yeah. Overprotectionism, I maybe.

Yes. No. But but, again, it's this external pressure, isn't it? I mean, I, yeah, I mean, it's a long time back now, but with all the the inoculations and the jabs and things like that, I generally didn't want to have them. And I didn't you know, working from home, and I wasn't socialized. I didn't really see I don't want to put all this stuff into my body. I really don't. I mean, let's face it. How long it takes them to usually test things and it suddenly they've got they've got a solution.

Don't think so. Anyway, that's going back into the into that time, but the reason I did was because I've got my parents in the races, and they're all they're they're inoculating, and I needed to be able to see them. My dad had been in a care home at the time because he'd had a stroke, and there's all this sort of stuff going on. So I sort of had to go with the flow, but it I how good was it? How much did it I don't know. This this you don't really know what you've put into your body, do you? A lot of heavy metals and things like that, and you've got to be really mindful when you come back down to the sanitizer. All of this stuff that you're putting onto your hands gets absorbed in through your skin, into your bones. And what are what are we what are we doing to ourselves? You know? You've gotta be really careful with all not what I say. You have.

But I use body lotion all the time, but it it is on my mind when I'm using body lotion and deodorants that it's keeping my epidermis nice and smooth, but actually, what's happening what's happening to my body overall? You know? What am I what am I actually putting on? How is it getting absorbed? Really ought to have something much more natural because when you look at the ingredients on all these products, there's there's all I think there's a whole whole issue of health. In fact, there's a but that's going off in another subject matter altogether about food. We The Plant Paradox by doctor Stephen Gundry is a very interesting book about how ailments have increased in line with food production and what people eat, particularly, obviously, this is in the States. And it's it's really interesting, the whole sort of foods that we eat that aren't good for our body and the reason they're not and how you Joanne change them so that when you do eat them, your body's not rejecting them and which is what why how you end up ill. And then the same thing comes about what we're putting on our bodies and all the things and all the products all around us have got. Are treated with this. They're treated with that, and we're we're breathing it all in, which is why when then you've got your roof off and you're out in nature, you feel so much better because you're not not breathing in all that rubbish. Apart from when you're off you've got your roof off in the m 25 and you're next to a, an Arctic pumping out some diesel, I guess, that's a little bit different.

But the the convenience food industry has, has become and I'm I'm this could sound like a really crazy way of saying it. Convenience food industry is convenient, and it's it's actually hard sometimes to to have healthier options to do different because we're so we're so ingrained now to click on it, shop on it, scan it, put it in our baskets. To actually start cooking from scratch is hard is much harder. My mom said

It is. That it is. If you tell yourself that story and that dialogue, and that's what the food production companies want because that's what they've marketed right from the I mean, I remember having the the Vesta meals back in the seventies. That was, like, the first curry that came out. But I was very lucky both of my parents both cooked. Actually, when I left home, I hadn't I didn't need to cook. My dad always used to cook really nice Chinese Joanne in curries. My mom had done cooking, and she all our meals were all cooked from scratch.

And my Joanne obviously cooked, and that's historical. Then I had to learn to cook, and I enjoy cooking. Yeah. I really do. I end up getting too busy with doing other things. I go, oh, I need and sometimes, like this week, hands up, we had we had chips in the car in Hunstanton the other night because we'd been spent all day decorating. Then we'd been out to pick something up that else we'd seen on Facebook Marketplace. And we just got to the chip shop in time.

These chips and fish cake were just amazing. Following day, similar sort of scenario, and we ended up going to Tesco's and getting a meal deal. Other supermarkets are available. And, it was just it was just easy. But last night, I cooked I I grated up some couple of courgettes, zested a lemon, squeezed the lemon, chopped up some garlic, and pan fried the pan fried the courgette with the garlic, with some chili seeds, and then put in some raw king prawns, cook them up, and at the same time, cook some pasta, then mix the 2 together really quick, really easy, and far much far healthier than the previous 2 nights meals. And diet and your health and nutrition is very much on my agenda. Because I I do enjoy cooking, but I've just it's about putting boundaries in place. It's about going, do you know what? No.

I need to stop at this point of the day, and the you know, I want to cook. I want to eat nice meals. Did porridge for breakfast this morning with chia seeds and with a, chopped up chopped up pear, some grate some broken up walnuts, and some raspberries on top. But I made the porridge with water, so it was, you know, you've not got the fat from the milk either.

That's lovely. I should come around one day, probably.

Come around. Come around. We'll we'll go we'll go for we'll go for a walk through the woods and down across the across the nature reserve to the beach, which is very nice.

Fantastic. I know. It's,

It's it's lovely.

I love that sort of thing. I mean, my wife and I, Mary, we're we kind of our kind of exercise hobby is is Natural Trust houses and things. So we

Oh, lovely.

We love we love going for water around National Trust and just enjoy sitting in someone else's garden sometimes. You know, it's nice to sit in a garden, watch the world go by, have a wander around by the stream. You know, imagine you're a 19th century lord or ladies wandering around these places. It's, yeah, it's it's nice. And,

Well, if you come up if you come up to see we are only 3 miles from Sandringham, so you can go you can go very upmarket, darling.

Hey. Terrific. Absolutely. Yes.

Have have you ever watched The Windsors, the com the comedy series The Windsors?

No. Never seen that one. We've done The Crown or those sort of, but never

Watch watch The Windsors. Harry Enfield stars. And it's so, so, so funny. But there's a sketch or in fact, if you can if you hit YouTube, you could probably pick up a bit of it in there. It's Harry Enfield plays king Charles as he was Prince Charles when it was obviously all filmed. And it's the the the the the shop effectively. It just makes me happy because when we go to the shop at Sandringham, it's like, how much? How much? But in this in this sketch, the the lady the the shop assistant, she's like, falling over him, like, oh, but you can add lots of extra naughts because people buy it because it's you. It's yours, and it's just like it's almost like it's a parody on the reality, and it's just really funny.

It's really funny. And the and the girls that play Beatrice and Eugenie are hilarious. Watch it. You you will love it. You will love it. It's really, really, really funny.

Yeah. You're so right. Because some of these places, they do add the x 0 on because that's that's the market. And the other argument is if you're not charging too much, then people wonder why it's not why you're not, or they don't see the value in it because, oh, hang on a minute. I couldn't possibly spend £10 on a scarf unless it's Hermes and it's £200. How can it be any good? You sometimes gotta you've got sometimes gotta price it to the to the shop, haven't you, as well?

Oh, it's it's mad, folks. I mean, when you start to think about what things actually are, what you end up paying for is you're paying for the marketing. You're paying for the marketeers to tell you that you need to buy this product. That's what's so ridiculous. Yeah. Yes. I I understand. I mean, some products are clearly much better quality than other products.

Totally get that. And then you are paying for the for the quality, and I would rather have the quality than something that's gonna fall apart because, yeah, there's a there is a great difference, but sometimes you Jo, really? I picked up a wooden coaster, I mean, a wooden coaster, and it got a picture of Sandringham House in the middle of it. How much do you think Lockwood just a single wooden coaster with a picture of Sandringham House sort of effectively etched in the middle of it?

20 quid.

Something like that. Yeah.

It's just Yeah.

What? What? No. Yeah. Tea towel. Was it just like 20 quid for a tea was was it 20 quid? Might even be more.

Involved in in some human craftsmanship. You can't understand valuing someone's time. If it's if it's mass produced or off a machine, it it's literally you're paying for copyright or, as you say, marketing or branding or just being in the being in the right place at the right time.

Oh, I know. It's just it's it's it's bonkers. And I I I mean, yeah, I mean, I like certain I don't know. Anyway, I've I've discovered vinted now. Anyway, I'm a bit of a vinted addict. So it's a great way of repurposing getting quality items that have cost at a a reduced price. And you're freed up to if you really do want to go and spend big money on things, you can do. I really shouldn't have spent you know, bought a latex dress the other day, but hey ho, it's very nice.

Yeah. But you've got an Instagram jacket.

Jeans though, Jeff. I need new jeans. Yeah. I'll be more I'll have more time opportunities to wear a pair of jeans I could have bought when 3 pairs of mine are ditched. Latex dress.

Yeah. But latex dress is is like business. It's not just pleasure. It's it's business, right, your it's part of your your channel, your followers.

It is. It is. And watch out. I will be I will be, launching out as the leadership and latex speaker at some point this year. I'm looking forward to, getting a keynote delivered in that area about all the things we've been talking about, you know, about being yourself and embracing yourself.

Latex dress, I I hope.

Well, I thought it's translucent, maybe not. Big pants underneath. I'll be alright.

Big pants. Nip into mouth, then

go and get myself a pants. Is that the brand you're

looking for? Latex dress and big pants? It's like

Yeah. Because it's a it's a winner.

It's a winner. Just maybe just try another Instagram channel. Yep. Big Joanne and latex or something.

Well, do you know what? It's probably a thing. It's probably a thing. It's, they maybe fishnets in the dress and a pair of pleaser boots. There we go. How about that? Have you seen pleaser boots? You know what they look like?

Go on and describe it for the

They're huge. They're they're a bit like the stripper heels you can get them. They're massive. They've got, like, about, I don't know, almost, like, 10 inch heels on them, but they've got platforms. But the fact that they're a boot and they lace up on your feet, so you Joanne Kinky

boot type. Like a kinky boot?

Yeah. A bit like that. But they've got I've got a pair in red and a pair in purple. I I would like some more. I do covet some more. But

You don't wear them when you're out for a walk or a jog?

No. No. We wear wear them well. We have we have done latex shoot on the beach. We did it about naught degrees in January. It was very liberating and very invigorating and very bracing all at the same time because when you're wearing latex and it's cold, you might as well not be wearing anything.

Yeah. I can I can imagine it's it's it's probably okay for wind protection, but not very much good for for insulation, though, is it?

No insulation at all. No. It's it's I mean, it just goes cold. But on a hot day when you're wearing it, it it sort of attack it it changes to your body temperature. Jo, yeah, you can get invariably, when I've if if we've taken some photographs at home and it's the heating's been on and oh my god. So are you? It's just like dripping is all I can say. It's just

Jo you you use lots of talcum powder, presumably. Well, it's

a dressing aid. You can it depends on the item. Sometimes I wear used, talcum, other times, dressing aid. So you have a special dressing and then obviously polish it all as well, and it looks shiny. Shiny shiny.

I'm I'm I'm so curious. I haven't checked your Instagram account, but I'll but I'm definitely gonna be, pretty sure.

You've got your phone to hand, Jo?

I yeah. I have. Yes. Let me let me

I did tell you what it was called. You could have a look at it now, and then and let the listeners all hear you're you're

Right. So there's our IG. Okay. We're gonna go Lucy

Yeah. L u c y.

Latex.

Lucy loves.

Lucy loves latex.

Yeah. There you go. Joanne's looking very

That you?

Intently at the screen.

That's that's not you that's not you though, is it?

No. That's not me. Oh.

That's somebody else who does latex.

There's some Oh,

there's a similar account. Okay. I've I've found

There are people that steal my stuff and put it on Twitter and, say, Facebook underneath other people's names. I keep on having to report things and have it taken down. It's horrible. People steal your content, and it's just that. Have you found me? Yes. That's me.

Oh, I see. So you've got the, burgundy latex dress?

Yep. Rubber closet.

Pleaser boots, are they?

They are.

Pleaser boots, are they?

Yeah. Indeed.

I was gonna say I recognize your glasses, but they're not even the same glasses.

No. I've got pink ones on in that photo. Yeah.

Of course.

I did have those on earlier when I went running because they're lighter weight.

Right. Well, there we go. I mean, for anyone who's, who's listening and you can't see these, I I recommend you it's Lucy loves latex.

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

Now the world knows. Woo hoo.

Yeah. And, we're not we're not we're not afraid to tell people. You know, we we've we've we've lost that inhibition to hold that back. And

Exactly. I

guess that's the message, isn't it? Yeah. Kinks and all.

Be yourself. Just step out. Be yourself. I mean, what's the worst that can happen? I was actually, approached last year by a journalist, and we had a a double page spread in a double page spread in a magazine. That's life. Oh, it's just it's fun. Honestly, is is it hurting anybody? No. Do we look good? Yeah.

Hell yeah. Do we have fun? Loads of it. Do we do it all the time? No. But does it give us enjoyment? Yes. So do stuff, folks, that brings you joy, brings you happiness. It doesn't hurt anybody if you're not doing something deliberately to hurt anybody else. You know, do it. Do it.

Be happy. Be in flow. Get have fun and laugh a lot. That's what I'd say.

Yeah. This this this one here's got a 100 and was it 10, 20,000 views watches. Yeah. So Oh,

one of my oh, one of mine's had 10,000,000 views.

10,000,000? Wow.

10,000,000 views. And another one's had 2,000,000. The more recently, I think they've been the Instagram haven't been sharing latex cleft content. A lot of the people I know who who wear latex and have got latex channels on there, their their content's not been shared beyond their followers, but what why I don't know. However, it is what it is. But, again, I've had to get out of my own way on that front because, actually, we do it because we have fun doing it. We enjoy doing it. Jo, therefore, don't worry about the volume of followers, although I think there's about 62,000 on there at the moment.

But Yeah. It's just a lot bit of lighthearted fun.

For sure. So, that's your I was gonna say your alter ego, but that's that's that's not alter ego. It's just part of your ego. Yeah. Exactly. What are the other what what what are the other parts yeah. The other quadrants of of who you are? How do people get a hold of you?

Gosh. Well, I'm I'm all sorts of everything. So you can find me over on LinkedIn, Sarah Jo Naylor, and you can find me on Insight Timer as Sarah j Naylor. I'm on YouTube as Sarah j Naylor. I'm and I'm actually now known as the Norfolk Coastal Coach. I've recreated a brand that do walk and talk coaching along the seafront, and I've added that. So that is my I've got a website that is north the Norfolk Coastal Coach dotco shall I start again? The Norfolk Coastal Coach dotco.uk, which takes you over to my Sarah Jo Naylor dot com website. So you can find out all about me on there.

I've written a book, how to man shining a light on you, how to manifest your dream job, which has also turned into a digital course. And what else have I I've got this I keep this stuff that I've done. I forget that I've done because I've got, oh, my podcast. You see? Harnessing Happiness with Sarah j Taylor, which is on pause at the moment, but it's been downloaded 40 2,000 times in over a 130 countries. It's a 155 episodes out there, so you can access that as well. And, yeah, I'm generally if you just put Sarah Jo Naylor or the Norfolk Coastal Coach into, into the search engine, you're guaranteed to find me. And if you really would like to go and have a look at Lucy Loves Latex, you'll find me over there as

as well. And it even looks like you. So yeah. It does. That's a that that would be authentic. Yeah.

And if you see anybody who looks like me and hasn't got Lucy Loves Latex, it's not it's somebody else stealing my content.

Yes. Exactly.

There's a lot of people that take it and steal it, and, there's somebody on Facebook that's purporting to be me. There's somebody on X, which is obviously Twitter, purporting to be me, and they're not. So if it if you if you question it, you'll know it's me because it's me. If it's question

mark Lucy loves latex, not these imposters.

No. Exactly. Exactly. But, otherwise, I'm Sarah Jo Naylor or the Norfolk ghost dog coach.

Yes. And that was impersonating Sarah Jo Nayler. Just

No. I am me. I am well, do you know what? The the the frustrating thing is is that it's conning other people, but then if people are allowing themselves to be conned, you can't fight other people's battles for them because I could spend a huge amount of time trying to battle it all. And and what would happen is somebody else would pop up doing something else. So I just get on and do my thing and do what I can when I can, but I'm not going to spend hours and hours and hours. That's not my it's not my fight.

Incredible. Thank you so much. For those who are listening, you've got the details. You know where to contact Sarah Jo Naylor or Lucy Loves Latex if you wish. So thank you.

Amazing. That's brilliant. I loved it. It's been absolute joy. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me as a guest.

As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to Jo dotco.uk, and let's make your voice heard. Until next time.

This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.