Hello, and welcome to another episode of the FAKTR podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Riddle. Welcome, and thanks for listening. In today's episode, we pick back up with our fascinating course on auriculotherapy with doctor Jeanette Kurban. In part 1 of this training, doctor Kurban introduced the 12 master points of auriculotherapy or acupuncture that is applied to specific points on the ear. It was incredible to hear about the various ways that these tiny points in the ear can create substantial changes in the body, impacting everything from hormones to anxiety, hypertension, and, of course, musculoskeletal pain. Today, we talk through a number of case studies and real world examples of how to apply auriculotherapy in your practice, including how to combine acupuncture as part of a multimodal treatment plan. We touch on the effects of bilateral versus unilateral treatment and the clinical decision making involved with determining where to start and how to introduce and explain this type of therapy to a patient.

So grab something to take notes with, and be sure to download this episode to listen more than once. Let's dive in.

Next, we have the sympathetic autonomic point, and it is the easiest way that I've ever found to locate this one is you go to the antihelix. You've got your helix. You go to the antihelix cross there, but it's on the helix or underneath the helix as the antihelix crus or cross connects. So if you're looking at the ear again, and I'll do this again, it's say it's a clock, and 12 o'clock is the allergy point, which we covered first, 1 o'clock, I would say that the sympathetic autonomic point is around 2 o'clock on that grid. It affects the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous system and the balance between the two. It's used for spasms, pain, and smooth muscles. Many practitioners use it in their asthmatic patients. It does affect the equilibrium of the body.

That means equilibrium balance improves circulation via vasodilation. So it's used in any stress related health disorder and and, again, much, much more. There's too much to put on one slide of what sympathetic autonomic point can use, but distinct spasm, sympathetic autonomic. So a patient with lots of spasms, and you have to go under that little ridge there to find it. Not hard to do. Not hard to find. Okay. Now on the next one, the thalamus point, let's first find its location again.

It's gonna be hidden underneath the little ridge there. The easiest way for me to tell you to find this one is find the antitragus, and the antitragus is found there's a little it's almost like a little bulb that sticks up there on the ear rim, and you can see the little bulge there or little bump. It's underneath there. It's that's the antitrachis. It's right underneath there. For overexcitement, it would regulate schizophrenic patient or depressed patient, restores tranquility, reduces chronic pain. So, you wanna take it anytime you have a patient who's been hurting, I think, for more than 6 months is chronic, but you and I both know we see patients who've been hurting every day for 10 years come in, and this can actually reduce or or stop their chronic pain. I've actually seen it to where the patient just goes, the next morning, I woke up, and I'm not stiff anymore, and I don't hurt in the mornings anymore.

After one treatment, the next week actually, this was really recently. The lady comes in. She's referred to me by her internal medicine doctor who actually had come in and been introduced to acupuncture. Instead of his 3rd back surgery, he knew that would not be successful, and so he was trying anything. He had heard about acupuncture, heard about me, came in, and he's now sending me at least 1 to 2 new patients a week. I never asked him to, but he he had such great results. It kept him from a 3rd neurosurgery. It was just amazing for him, and so I was so happy for him.

And now he's sending these patients with just a plethora of diagnoses. This little lady is your typical osteoporotic in a walker, already bent over almost almost 80 degrees. Just so sad. Can't straighten up. Her back has already grown that way with the dowager's hump, but she is so uncomfortable and hurts so chronically that she has to sleep on her couch, so which makes it even worse because she's humped in a little fetal ball. And after one acupuncture treatment, this has been about a month ago, she came in the next week. I see her once a week. And she said it hasn't stopped all the pain, but when I get up in the morning now, I'm no longer stiff.

I used to hurt in the mornings, and now when I get up in the mornings, I don't hurt haven't hurt all week. So I'll take that. It's used for drug detoxification, internal organ function, tonifies the brain, and calms the mind. So, again, thalamus point. It is related to the modulation of pain. It's wonderful, wonderful, wonderful for pain. So don't forget that one if you have pain patients, which I think most of us probably do. Way more than we probably want, but that's that's what we can we can help.

The tranquilizer point, where is that? Okay. That's gonna be on the surface. Real easy to find. You'll find the tragus, which you see kind of like little bud growing out there at the side of the ear underneath the helix root? That's the tragus, and right below the tragus, almost between it's between the intertragic notch, which is at the bottom there where the ear starts back up, the little form of the ear. It's halfway between the tragus and the intertragic notch. Is your tranquilizer point? Well, it's great for any type of anxiety, overall relaxation, general sedation. It's also a good point for your hypertensive patients along with and chronic stress. Now along with your hypertensive patient, if you're allowed to treat hypertension or, say, you just wanna treat it in yourself or your someone there in your family, that point along with the allergy point being bled with a little tiny lancet can bring down the hypertension immediately.

It's an amazing thing to watch. We've actually done it in class with a person the same person took their blood pressure, and then we bled that allergy point, treated the hypertension point, and I think we might have treated a couple of other ones too in the ear only, and then 10 minutes later, took their blood pressure. It had lowered by 10 to 15 points on both the systolic and diastolic. And there's been case studies on this too, so you can look those up if you need to on the Internet. But it's not a secret that that point can help lower blood pressure. Now for pain control, this is not one of your master points per se, but I thought, okay. I don't wanna focus this whole thing on pain, but we do treat pain. And patients come in, and they want their pain treated.

I always tell them we can treat pain. It's like the the branch tree, but we wanna get to the root. But I don't mind treating the branches, but we don't wanna cut off the branches. We wanna get to the root. Right? And they'll say, sure. We wanna get to the cause. And we'll eventually get to the cause, but if we need to treat your pain in order to get you to come back and understand that we need to do more to get to the root possibly, let's get your pain under control because it makes for a miserable life. And miserable life, miserable wife, and all the other things people say.

So these are the most commonly used points for pain control class. You can see here most of them are on the surface. There's only 2 or 3 that are hidden. I hope you can use this slide. The ones for dental analgesia have been used by dentists now for decades and very well researched, and tons of case types out on that. If you wanna look at a lot of case types without researching yourself, the book by Olson is the best, auriculotherapy manual. He's got just dozens and dozens of case studies in there. But you have your spinal cord, your brain stem, just everything sciatic nerve is a great control point to use for on your patients with sciatica.

So you'll find your favorites and pick those, and I've even had some students use the dental analgesia for, like, if they're going in to have their tooth filled. They didn't wanna get their face all numb with much success. And the dentist all know about it. Not all of them are versed in it, but they all know about these points, and they know that they work. So it's kinda nice to be just recognized by the entire world now for all these points. Now here are the 2 extra master points that weren't on the original slide of the 10. There's the one for the upper limb, used for pain and swelling in the upper extremities. Anything in the arms, anything elbow, anything in the forearm, wrist, fingers, great point to use.

You go, okay. Well, where the heck is that one? Where I would say that one is is if you're at the lobe there at the very bottom, it looks to me like to be about, I don't know, maybe 8 o'clock if we're going on up the clock up the actual helix. It's down the helix tail. It could be almost at the very end of the tail is is what I would call that, where the tail meets the lobe. The antihelix tail meets the lobe if you're looking at that slide. So there's your upper limb master point. Again, they only need to be stimulated for 3 to 5 seconds. It's not long.

Not long at all. In fact, the patient, a lot of times, says their wrist, and they've got carpal tunnel maybe, and it's their wrist. What I would have them do while I'm treating it is slowly move your wrist now in the direction that used to hurt and just move it now. Move it in every direction. So for 3 to 5 seconds, they just move it, move it, move it. And a lot of times during the motion, they'll just they'll either feel a release or they'll hear a pop or feel a pop. It's it's pretty amazing and audible. Actually, you can even hear it, or they'll say, oh, that doesn't hurt anymore.

So it's pretty special. Same thing with the lower limb. Say it's their knee. So they're sitting, and while I'm treating this point, actually, almost at the helix root just above that, at tragus notch there next to the helix root, I'll have them move the knee, or I'll say move it in the position where it hurt and keep slowly actively moving that. And they will feel a click. They'll feel, yeah, a crepitus, pop, whatever you wanna call it, click, and say, it's not hurting anymore. I can't believe this, and it'll it'll just be an moment. So those are the slides.

I wanted to make sure most of you probably saw the little acknowledgment there at the bottom. Doctor Adrian Larson with meridiotech.com. Thank you, Jessica, for letting me or allowing me to acknowledge him for his letting us learn from his 3 d auriculoprogram. He's actually a very dear friend and has said, here with your legend that we could, as teachers, use any of these, and he just wanted a little blurb that said hello and thanking him. And so thanks, doctor Larson. Contact info is here for you in the future. And then, again, if you wanna look up some electrical devices or anything more about Auriculo 3 d classes, whatever, he has those available there from his website. Thank you very much.

This was fun, and I can't wait for questions.

Imagine what it would be like if you knew exactly how to treat every single patient that comes into your office, to have 100% certainty that you can tackle whatever comes through your doors, whether that means treating them in house or referring them out to another healthcare provider. Now, imagine being able to provide them with effective care that gets them out of pain and moving better in a fraction of the time, progressing them through the phases of healing in the most efficient way possible. While this may sound like a utopian dream, what I've just described is a reality for factor certified healthcare providers around the globe. And the one thing that they have that you don't is a system. If I've piqued your interest, I encourage you to visit factoreducation.com. That's faktreducation.com, and learn more about FAKTR certification and view our upcoming hands on course dates. Now on with the show. Wonderful.

Thank you so much, doctor Kurban. This was absolutely piqued my interest was to hear you talk about the use of these points when patients are doing different movements or moving some of the joints that are affected, which fits in perfectly with our FAKTR rehab systems. So those of you that are factor docs out there listening, it's really cool to kind of hear all of the different modalities and treatments that can be utilized kind of in line with the factor system. So to that end, doctor Kurban, if you could tell us a little bit about some of your favorite modalities or other treatments that you use in combination with these master points? I'd love to hear a little bit about and I know there's not no such thing as a typical patient visit, but a little bit about some of the treatments that you find are really effective when combined with these master points.

Well, oh, thank you, Jessica, so much. I would love to share with you, especially we'll just take back pain for it. That's mainly what we see, it seems like. But, again, I'm seeing a lot of shoulders. There's a point called master shoulder that we haven't gotten into here that just works like magic. Just a personal snippet here, and I don't really like to talk about myself, but last year, I went for I I had a lifting injury in the shoulder, and and it just there was nothing wrong with the shoulder as far as impingement. It it was it was a tendon. It was tendinitis, and it just on and on and on.

So I was teaching up in Kansas City one weekend, and we actually had doctor Larson come. And he was doing an auriculosection and showing us pointer plus or pointer select. And he just I thought, okay. I just felt it in my gut. I never did this because I would let pay I'd let students and and the doctors and the class be treated. But he goes, does anyone have anything going on they'd like for me to treat today? And I just, like, couldn't even jump up fast enough. And for 6 months, I had, like, really and truly, on a daily basis, did everything that I knew to do, adjusting, you name it, and to no avail and was really kinda getting tired of that pain to the point where I would just roll over in bed. It would wake me up.

So I'm not not doing well there. And he treated me with electrical. He treated the master shoulder. He treated shin men, divine gate, and he also treated the cervical. And as I was making the passive motion with my shoulder in the direction where it was hurting, it just automatically range of motion increased by 75%, at least, the first treatment. And he the whole audience, he and I just went, woah. It made such an audible crepitus and click when it finally released that the whole crowd could hear it. I mean, I think there were about 45, 50 people in the room, and everyone went, woah.

It was so loud. And I immediately felt relief. And to this day, this was last year. This is probably last June, July, almost a year now. The shoulder has not bothered me at all. Not at all. So we see that kind of results in our patients too. I'll just share that with you personally.

And that's what made me even go, I need to be doing more auriculo. I was doing auriculo, but I thought there's so many modern tools out here now. And through meridia.com, he he has the most modern in in my opinion. I've looked at all of them. And the the crazy thing is he doesn't mostly he doesn't mostly market to chiropractors. He's a chiropractor, but he has acupuncture stint with him that help him. And he's mostly the acupuncturist and now PTs and things like that. So he's pretty great guy, and he's got some great tools there and great learning videos.

But, yes, that would be a protocol. But, again, always adjust first, and he made sure that I had been adjusted before he treated me. Just all the tools that you have to me, I I hope that answered or helped a little bit, Jessica, but that's just a personal opinion and and actually happened to me last year. And I was pretty I was starting to get a little concerned about it. So especially as a chiropractor, you don't wanna have that kind of shoulder pain the rest of your life. So

Oh, absolutely. And especially because what you provide, the service and the care that you provide is so physical. Throughout various disciplines, not just chiropractors, but PTs, MDs as well, is that you really can't just rely on only one tool in your tool belt. You really have to have a diverse various offerings that you can pull from because you never know what type of patient is gonna walk in your door and what they're facing specifically. So when it comes to your assessments and the exams that you do with a new patient, are there specific symptoms or indications, things that they say that kind of jump out as a red flag that make you think, okay. These master points would be perfect for this. Like, this if I see this in my exam, I know immediately this is something that I can treat and get them some immediate relief.

Yes. Absolutely, Jessica. You you just you learn that as a physician, I think. You just or any provider. You see so much over the years, and the protocols are all there for us. And as far as anything specific, there's just so much to choose from. And sometimes you it it'll take 1 or 2 tries. You'll think, okay.

Well, that didn't really give me the results that I wanted, so we'll try this exercise or this stretch or modify. But with acupuncture, it's just it is pretty amazing. I'll call it stuff. And it it it should not amaze me. I've only been certified or since o five. So going on 20 years of this and teaching for over 10 now, it but it still it shouldn't amaze me, but it still just amazes me every day and the research coming out, the newer research with the fMRIs and and the blood tests and the scans, the brain scans of how we're proving how these endocrine points really do produce different hormones in the brain and blood. It's almost automatically it really it always makes me wonder how did the ancients know? How did they where were they given these points, and how were they given these points? But it it does fly out at you. And I think the the more you do it, the more those points come to you.

And that's why I wanted today to cover the master points because these are some that will never fail you, and you don't really have to think about them. And if you just knew these 10 points or half of these 10 points, you could help almost every patient that walks in your office with this adjunct modality.

No. Absolutely. And I think it it is fascinating to think about some of these treatments and how long they've been around and how they were utilized at a time where understanding of the human body was very different. And and, again, based upon what we knew at the time and what we understood, but then again, sometimes if you look at how they understood it back then versus now, there are some things that they did a little bit better, I think many of us would say. When it comes to the use of seeds, I know you mentioned in earlier on in the presentation that there are different seeds that could possibly be used that you could send a patient home with. How do you incorporate those with some of these points? Do you ever put a seat on and then send a patient home for a period of time? What does that look like? Like, how long are they leaving those on before they come back to you and need actually to have needles inserted in those points?

Well, actually, they or they're stainless steel. And so if that point needs to be sedated, if it's a hyperactive point or or excess chi, then I know I can use silver because it sedates. And then Jessica, gold will always tonify, and then stainless steel will do either one. So I tell people who are beginning to get your ACUPATCHES, maybe get 3 of each kind, but mostly get the stainless steel because they're amphoteric. In other words, they'll either raise or lower the energy in that point depending upon what the body tells that point it needs at that particular time. And that's what makes so beautiful because you can't make the patient worse when you use stainless steel. If a patient say if, say, you're treating a patient for weight loss or smoking, something excess, they're they're smoking too much or eating too much, same part of the brain, you you could, if you knew that, if you knew after the history with the silver, but you could always just stick that stainless steel on there, and then the the guessing's gone. The body does what it needs to do with that point.

Again, because the different metals have different energy frequencies in the body. And you can actually use those occipatches on any point on the body too. But I use them a lot in the air, more so even than the different types of seeds that you can put in there. Do leave them depending. They'll usually come off in the shower eventually after 3 to 4 days, but take them off and then reinsert them the next time you see the patient if you need to. But a lot of acupuncturists leave them in there an entire week. You can leave them in a week. If they're pressed needles and taped on, those can stay a week.

But, again, you're liable for what goes on there, so I'm always really careful when I'm teaching it that you wanna be careful. The ASP needles and things like that that go deeper, that can do damage to the cartilage that I've actually seen it and heard about it quite a bit. They're pretty they kinda splay when they hit the cartilage and, again, can do some damage and cause problems. So I always make sure when I when I use those press needles that it's a patient that I know I can that will actually do what I tell them to do and take it out after 3 days, say, or or whatever the instructions are. So anytime you send things like that home that do pierce the skin, there's always a chance of infection. So you wanna keep that in mind, and maybe just use the press the press on Accupatches in stainless steel is your best bet there.

Absolutely. That's that's great advice. And I think really fascinating to hear that there are some kind of different types of metals that that can have an interesting effect. And especially for those of you who might be considering getting certified in acupuncture, definitely look to instructors like doctor this that could kind of give you some advice and guidance on building out that toolkit and the things that you wanna take into consideration early on. Tell me a little bit about follow-up care and treatment frequency for these type of patients. And I know, obviously, with all of the master points covered today, there's a variety of different conditions and symptoms that are are being addressed here. But do you have kind of some standard rules of thumb when it comes to treating these master points for how often a patient should come back in or what your follow-up exam looks like after that first treatment?

Actually, Jessica, you would just implement I would suggest that you implement the modality of acupuncture into your treatment plan that you already have. So if you're seeing the patient 3 days a week for 2 weeks and then so it's your treatment plan already. It's not a separate treatment plan for the acupuncture. Just end it, adjust the patient. If the they're not doing needles that day, and or you're just an auriculo electrical auriculoductor, then just take out your pointer plus or whatever you're gonna be using if you do electrical and treat, treat, treat, 5 to 10 seconds max on 2 or 3 points, and they're off. So it's not really you don't have a separate plan. It it depends on what your treatment plan is already. You don't have a separate day they would come in for for acupuncture.

You just implement it like you would if you say, okay. We've adjusted you. Now let's go back to rehab, and let's do 30 minutes of rehab or stretching. I hope that answered the question. It's not. Yeah. No. Absolutely.

It right in. It takes, again, 3 to 5 seconds for every point, and you pick 2 or 3 points that after you examine the patient and do the history and all that good stuff and see how they're doing, if they're improving and they have something else that's kinda bothering them today, you can take that little Pointer Plus and use that on a different point in the ear. So it's it's so versatile. I I love it. It's so quick. It takes nothing. Once you learn the points, it's just so much faster. They don't lay there for 20 minutes with the needles on, and you have to sit there with them and take the notes.

It it's time consuming, although you can use the electrical all over the body too. And many people are going that route instead of having the 20 minute session where they lie down with needles in them. They're going that session because they're seeing you get great FAKTR results with electrical. They're super FAKTR. Sometimes instantaneously, like I mentioned my shoulder. Almost instantly, the shoulder released. I heard the crepitus, and then I heard the release, and then everyone heard the release, actually. And then no more pain.

No more it was a little sore the next day, but not like it was ever for 6 months.

That's fascinating. So, essentially, you can utilize the electrotherapy to get a much faster response and, I guess, kind of a more focused response. Is it essentially the same as what you would achieve through that 20 minutes of having the needle on? Is it kind of swapping out one for the other, or are there instances where you would definitely wanna utilize the electrical instead of that 20 minute barring time not being a consideration there? But are there specific circumstances where you really wanna have that additional energy going in?

That's a great question, Jessica. It's especially for your needle averse patients. They they don't even realize that you can have acupuncture with no needles. And when they find that out, they are so happy, and it is quicker. A lot of times, you get an instant response. It's supercharged almost. But then there's also those patients who don't believe that they're getting acupuncture unless they're lying down for 20 minutes with the zen music going on in a darkened room and relaxing and with needles sticking in them. And so they benefit also.

So you would go by each I go by individual patients. I was quite I was quite surprised when I first started acupuncture in my office that how many wanted the needles because I give them a choice. And when you have a needle diverse patient, of course, they're, like, all over that electrical acupuncture. They love it, love it, love it, And and tell everyone they know about it. Whereas the needle patients, a lot of times, what I'm finding is the patients who want to be, they wanna relax, they sometimes they are that's the only time of the day where they are actually not being overwhelmed with stimuli. They they they a lot of times, I stay in the room with patients, and I'll work on notes or whatever it is I need to work on. And now that I'm kind of in a semiretirement state, not retired, still seeing patients, but and always will, but just not 40 to 60 to whatever how many patients a day people see that they relax enough to sleep. And when they're sleeping, they're really getting their body's really taking over their control there.

And so they both have their benefits, but I see especially if they want in and out. So you have those patients you I always call them the 7 AM patients who are going on their way to work, and they just want in and out. They don't wanna do the roller intersegmental traction. They don't wanna do any exercises, and they they just wanna come in, get their adjustment leave. Those patients would be great for electrical. Patients who come in after work, say, or or they just have a stressful life, they need to lie there for 15, 20 minutes. Because relaxing and learning to breathe and letting that body heal itself is all their healing process too. So I would say go by your individual patient and what you know they need as the provider, and you will know after speaking with them, even on a first visit, what would be best for them.

But I do give them a choice. I do say, okay. This is this is the deal. And I tell them I show them. This is a needle, but it's not really a needle. It is not hollow. It doesn't suck blood. You're used to that.

It doesn't give injections, medicines, vaccines, whatever that you're used to. It's the diameter of a hair. It's very, very tiny, and most of my patients, to be honest, and it's not me. It's the technique that you've learned through education. Don't even feel the needles go in. They'll say, you don't have 10 needles in right now. And I go, well, we actually do. 5 on each side.

You have them all in and so don't move. And that's another thing. If they're real fidgety and you know they can't quit moving, then, yes, do electrical. So all all the kiddos all the kiddos, I do not stick needles in kids. So that would be an absolute. We don't stick needles in children. They're already scared of needles. They already have been programmed to know what needles are.

So never I never, and I never teach to stick children. Now in and now in China, they do. I mean, you see little kids sitting in a chair, 6, 7, 8 years old, but not here. We use electrical on all kiddos. I do here.

Yes. That's and that's a great point. I think it obviously can vary especially depending upon cultural acceptance and when kids are accustomed to something because it's it's just commonplace and very prevalent in their culture, there's a very different mindset, I'm sure. What age group would you like, for your personal guidelines, what age is your cutoff where you'll start doing needles versus is kiddo 13 and under or 8 and under? Do you have kind of a a range that you look to to where if they're under a certain age, it's definitely no needles?

You know what, Jessica? Another great question. I don't. I just I for instance, I had a a young boy who had some sports pain. I think he was probably in middle school. He's maybe 13. Just a month or 2 ago, and his mother had been coming in for needle acupuncture, and he he wanted to try it. So he came in, and the mom's in the room with him, and he she just goes, do you want me to stay in here with you? Because I can and he's just like, nope. You don't need to.

And I said, well, you want me to go ahead and treat your mom first so you can see how it works and what it feels like to her? And and he goes, no. I'm ready to go, and he wanted needles. So, again, I give them the choice. Under 12 or so, I don't I I just think there's there's methods for children. There's a whole another course that you can spend 40 hours on called Shonishin, and there's books out on it. Shonishin for children. And there happens to be a doctor Soma Glick out of Boulder, the school in Boulder that teaches that course that I've been privileged to be part of, and she she's incredible with kiddos. So they have other little tools you can use for babies, for infants, for newborns, but no sticking of needles in children.

So, again, this little boy, he didn't care. He's like, no. I want needle like my mom. So we put needles in him, and he laid there, and he was real still. And I think he even probably went to sleep and came in 2 or 3 times, and it seemed to help him. He said it did. So, again, just gotta you you gotta go by your patients and what they want. If he would have said the 2nd time, I don't know if I want needles again.

I wanna just do the electrical, then there would be no problem to switch over either. So be flexible. And, again, I don't I don't force anything on children for sure. And and giving them choices a lot of times, I I just I don't know. I'm just a choice person, so I give them I give adults and children choices.

No. Absolutely. I think that definitely gives them that that sense of being able to control and and kind of have decisions over their own body. That's definitely important. And we only have a few minutes here, but I did have a few more questions that our attendees have written in with. One person was asking, have there been any surprising or unexpected symptoms or conditions that you've seen improved through using these master points? Maybe you've been treating something else, but then as a secondary result, there was a great improvement in another area.

Oh, yes. That's a great question, and I think all of us have. And you could go on and on and on. I could talk about things like that all day long. But the bottom line is it just drives home for me how one point can actually be used for 25 conditions, and we're finding out more and more more conditions that can be it can be each point can be used by. I don't think we know it all yet, and I think it's a real good take home message is that to remember how connected we all are and as far as the universe and the holographic universe and our bodies and each other and to never, never underestimate the power of the human beings. What do we wanna call that? Spirit? We call it mind sometimes, but it's just the energy of the body and how it doesn't stop at the skin. And we know our heart beats at a certain frequency.

The healing cell is at a frequency. What is it? 2 amps, milliamps, 2 point o, a lot. The the cells heal at different they they regenerate at different frequencies. We're all we're electrical machines, and it for me, what it does is just drives home the connectedness of the entire universe for all of us and for all of us to always be aware that everything we do, think, feel, and say does matter, and it it matters to our patients. It matters to us. And, yes, every single day, something will patient will say, I know that you it's like an adjustment. I know that you adjusted my low back, but I didn't tell you this, but I've been constipated for a week. Could you do that adjustment again? I've been having trouble with constipation and that.

So, yes, the same thing rings true for acupuncture every single day of our lives. And it's just been the most fun adjunct therapy for me to add. I'm a chiropractor first, but it's just been one of the most fulfilling and fun therapies to add. And I I did it all. I mean, I believe in active therapy, always have. I mean, we know by research. You gotta get that patient active. They've gotta start moving again.

Sitting down is not gonna help them get better. And even though they're sitting down with the acupuncture all in all, it's a great I just think it's a great adjunct modality to add at the end of the day when they've had their adjustment, they've done their rehab, their spinal traction, whatever you've got them on, and then have them lie down there and put the needles or do the electrical and then head on out. And the body just is supercharged. So I I love it. And, yes, I think all of us could probably name a plethora of different moments where they were and you went, oh my gosh. It shouldn't surprise me, but I still have moments to answer that question, Jessica. But that was a great question.

Well and I think that's a testament to being a lifelong learner is that you're always gonna continue to have those moments. And I've often told people, when I meet someone that tells me they've arrived and they have nothing left to learn, that's someone I don't really wanna interact with much more because I feel like all of us have so much to learn, and some of the most incredible minds that I've had the pleasure of interacting with through the years are the ones that are still seeking out knowledge and seeking out ways that they can improve as as practitioners and as students of health care and what all you guys do to to treat your patients. So just one final question for you because I think this is important to kind of to sum up with here today. I know you had mentioned earlier they have 100 hour certifications in acupuncture. You're a diplomat holder, and you had mentioned a few things about the American Chiropractic Board of Acupuncture. Could you give just kind of a brief little point of advice or guidance for maybe a student who's fixing to finish their chiropractic degree, maybe a practicing doc that's looking to learn more about incorporating acupuncture into practice. Do you have any advice or guidance based upon your experience on what are some great first steps for them to take, or what is the importance of having that diplomate when they've completed their acupuncture certification and education?

Oh, I'd love to do that, Jessica. Thank you for asking. With the American Board of Chiropractic, we have they have all the boards, the rehab boards, the internal medicine, the radiology, the we have our council of chiropractic acupuncture, and then we have our American Board of Chiropractic Acupuncture who actually administers the board certification program or exam. It consists of to go to that, you could just go into www.council of chiropractic acupuncture.com for those of you that wanna get on there and look around and find a chiropractic acupuncturist in your area or look at the requirements. But it would be an an additional 200 hours on top of the 100 hour certification that would be required, and then a national board exam, which we hold once a year. We're talking about doing 2 a year now because of demand, but once a year, we have a symposium and an exam on Friday and then symposium on Saturday, Sunday. So the advantages of that are we're actually we file for a taxonomy code now, where when you send off for your MPI number and you list all the specialties that you do or can and then be paid on that scale, we will have our own code there. And I can also tell you that there we have many of our members and officers who have been in Washington DC now for probably about a decade talking or a PT who has an acupuncture degree also.

And as in anything in government, sometimes it can be arduous and long and in a fight. But if you want more education in acupuncture, to me, it just seems like the natural it's it's just the natural flow of things to go ahead and get your diplomat, your board specialty degree in it. But what it will do eventually is insurance companies are are going to require more than that 100 hours, just a heads up. And they've already told us that. They want only the diplomats. They want a list of nationally certified diplomats, and that's who they'll reimburse on their insurance plans. And so we've gotten the word out and told them, and it's not a threat. It's just actually what they've told us.

So just in the future, and I don't know what that means. If that 5 years, 10 years, 15 years down the pike, they'll want that taxonomy code will be used only by diplomats, and they'll require that you send your license. We have the national license and the number and all that good stuff. But it was well worth my time. I didn't go through it like like butter, like a lot of people do. I thought, okay. Well, I don't really need that that diplomat to really be reimbursed the same in my mind, but what it was, what you said before, it was more knowledge. I knew I didn't have enough.

I loved it. I saw what what just a 100 hours was doing, and I felt like in my heart, I need to know this more. I need to know it more inclusively and better, and and I need to study it. And then the next thing you know, I'm teaching it. And I would just encourage anyone that's interested to go to the that website I gave you, www.councilofchiropracticacupuncture.com, and it will answer all those questions. And but, again, if you need any additional questions answered, I've got my contact info, and I'd be happy to speak with you anytime about it.

So, again, doctor Kurban, thank you so much today. This has been a pleasure as it always is to chat with you.

That's it for today's episode. Be sure to tune in for our next episode where we kick off a new training with doctor Mike Olson, where you'll learn how to create a post concussion graded return to play protocol for your patients. You won't wanna miss it. Episode 77 drops in 2 weeks. Before we wrap today's episode, I have to say that out of all of the many guests we've had on the podcast, doctor Kurban has been one of my absolute favorites. She does such a great job of taking complex concepts and making them easy to understand. It was a pleasure to learn from her, and I hope you found value in this training. Check out our show notes for a link to the full recorded webinar replay along with a link to our event calendar where you can find an acupuncture or dry needling course near you.

We'll see you next time.

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