Welcome to the National Council For Hypnotherapy Podcast, where we dive into the fascinating world of hypnosis, lifting the lid on hypnotherapy, sharing insights and tips for change as we chat. So sit back, relax, and enjoy all the wonderful possibilities of Hypnotherapy. My name is Tracey Grist, and I will be your host today. Well, I'm here today with Cathy Powell or or Catherine or Cath.

Or Cath. Yeah. So

Kathy Powell, who is a trauma informed therapist, coach, and neurodiversity specialist. So how did you happen upon your training? What was your pathway into this world of therapy? Wow.

Yeah. So I've had many an incarnation in my life, but, but I met a questi as we call ourselves, the those of us that were trained through the Quest Institute. And, and I met this person and thought, they sort of get me, or they, you know, they're they've got very interesting way of looking at things or encouraging me to be me.

Yeah.

And I dealt a bit more, and I was like, I really would like to know more about this. And and and and at the time, I was working a lot with families and young people supporting those with a lot of difficulty. And the more I got to know about the training of that way of thinking, I just recognized that that was something that I really wanted to do. I really wanted to learn more about, not just to support other people, but also learning about myself.

Yeah. So so before you trained with Quest, were you involved in the neurodiversity world? Yeah. In that area?

Yeah. So so we have a very beautiful neurodivergent family. Uh-huh. You know, quite a wide and the more I've learned, the more I recognize. And and so I was working at the time and had been for a number of years working in the field of SEN support in in education, and then moving into family services, supporting families, and doing quite a lot of advocacy and recognizing where people really needed more support as opposed to judgment and really needed to understand their own power and and the fact that there's nothing wrong with anybody at all. They just need to understand why certain things might be difficult for them or where that may have come from. So, yeah, it was it was I've been involved in SEN, I suppose, for 30 years now.

Yeah. And is that in the classroom as well as at home, or how does it

Yeah. So I started off helping us to set up a a support group that's that's I'm quite proud to say has gone on to be quite a massive organization or a big organization in the area that I used to live in. And, made great friends with with somebody. We were introduced by a psychiatrist that was working independently with our own children. And that became a great friendship, and we understood the need to support, and we did that. Then I had an opportunity to sort of change career directions.

Yeah.

And and at the time I thought, you know, I really want to get involved in education. And so I started off doing SEN support in schools and then gradually morphed into different versions of that, becoming an outreach support worker for young people, then recognizing how important it was to support the family. So I ended up in in family support.

Yeah. So in in terms of the neurodiversity, are we talking about autism and ADHD? Does that are there variations?

Well, the the the the umbrella now that covers neurodivergence is is quite broad. It's quite big. It's sort of, it has an awful lot under that umbrella. I suppose in Maine, I end up working with people that either have been given an ADHD diagnosis or suspect they may, maybe may may qualify. Likewise, people who recognize they may have autistic traits or have a diagnosis of autism and because of my background of working with young people, I do obviously end up being approached by lots of families where there are young people that are struggling quite often in schools nowadays.

Yeah, I suppose that's where children, I mean, it's, you know, I think about it in terms of I I work and I do what I love every day, and sometimes it's hard. Goodness knows what it must be like being in a class room every day doing something that that you're not suited to or it doesn't suit you.

Yeah. Or but but equally, some some people have super able academically minds, but they don't feel fit with the environment or the environment's difficult or socially, it's hard, or the routine and rigidity and the testing brings a whole set of of of challenges nowadays. So it's not just those that can't, that find themselves in a in a struggle while they're learning. It's those that can do the learning, but struggle with all the other aspects too. And so that can become you know, when we're talking about young people, particularly when we're looking at, you know, the pre rational brain, you know, when we're quite young, we start feeling that that means there's something wrong with us. We don't recognize it's the system around us that might be not very friendly. And so that then itself starts getting held within as as a as an as an internal need to protect against that and and manifests in in what we might call maladaptive behavior strategies. You know? And, of course, COVID has just knocked everyone for 6 because all that predictability, all that understanding was stripped away overnight for all of us.

So a lot of people who were sort of rumbling around coping, suddenly the dials got turned up, and then they found it really difficult to manage. Yeah. It it it sort of come Yeah. So we've got a lot of a lot of, unfortunately, young people finding it really difficult to get into school. K. Yeah. And and and problem being as well is that the systems can end up being quite judgmental about that. And so it becomes a punitive situation where they go, well, you'll get fined if you don't bring your child into school.

And parents fundamentally know when their kids can't do things, you know, and and can see the pain and the difficulty. And, it's not helpful. There needs to be far more understanding of those underlying mechanisms, far more support and nurture.

Yes. So if you were a parent whose child was struggling with going into school, what's what's the best sort of advice you could give a parent in that situation? Because they're probably in the state of, oh, I've got work, I've got to do this, I've got to do that.

Yeah. It's, I'm not gonna lie. It's an unenviable situation, and it's very difficult because on the one hand, they're being told to be firm and push and to ignore and that that the young person just needs to do what they need to do. Yeah. But innately, the parent knows that the young person is actually in an awful lot pain and difficulty. So from with a therapist head on, I will just say, you know, that you need to listen to them. And then we start exploring, you know, if I if if they're if they they allow me to work with them, we start exploring all of the facets of the difficulty, and then we start helping that young person to understand that actually there's nothing wrong with them. And we start exploring where those difficulties emanated from, where they started from, and helping them to unpick those underlying sort of bubbles of trauma, if you like.

Because there's a lot of complex trauma, a lot of cyclical trauma that I like to call, you know, if, if you're, if you're, you know, as I mentioned already, if you're, if you're, if you're in a situation, you don't feel that you're best fit for it, you don't feel it, but you might start thinking there's something wrong with yourself. So we are trying to unpick that first of all. So my advice to parents is listen listen to your your children. You have to become quite a strong advocate for them and and understand the system as well and understand what rights are. And it's not an easy path.

No. No. I suppose anything that deviates from that set original, I don't want to say normal, path, you know, it's just a constant headache, a continual back pain to get them to fit in. So, and do you work with children with neurodivergence? Is that your area of NCH as a therapist?

It's my comfort area. Yeah. So I work with everybody, but I do get many referrals because I think others other people who aren't used to or don't have the same degree of understanding or experience working within the field, maybe be a little bit nervous about maybe not doing it in the right way. So I work with young people, their families. I work with parents, and I work with adults. And some of whom may have a neurodivergent label, and some many of whom that don't. But I suppose, yeah, regarding it as my comfort zone is is a good way of looking at it because I don't just do that exclusively.

Yeah. And so do you have a different style of working when you're working with the diverse are there different

methods? Well, it's like any client, everybody is unique.

Yeah.

And so there might be the need to work more slowly because by the nature of the experience, there's a lot of trust that's been lost. You know, if if if you're constantly day in, day out, being pushed to do things that don't feel right or you lose trust in people in general. You know, with with this situation where NCH, you know, increasing numbers of young people are struggling to get into school. Of course, safety is home. Safety is what they know. So anybody new is a potential threat, even more so. So I work very, very carefully on safety and rapport building. So it might be a bit slower.

Yeah. There's no you know, I have to be very clear that, you know, we we we slowly assess. We slowly work through. We make sure that person is heard and is validated. And and once they're on-site, then we tend to sort of enter a sort of a pathway that's a bit more typical of typical speed, if you like. But some people have lots of sensory issues that that has to be taken into account. So I suppose there's a lot a lot more screening and assessment of those sort of things before we sort of start launching into the actual therapy side of things.

Yeah. Yeah. And do you, do you find that when you're, oh, do you know, I'm, I'm perimenopausal, so I start something and saying events, and then I go, oh, there's nothing there.

Nothing. Nothing there. Sorry. Well, quite often, I've got I, you know, the youngsters I work with find it really hysterical because I'll be halfway through it. I go, oh, hang on a minute. Well, I think, oh, that's gone. Where'd that go? Hang on. I'll find I'll remember in a minute.

Yeah. It just completely, completely goes, and there's just nothing. Nothing. So so I suppose in terms of your working style, what would a session look like with you, you know, in so so the beginning is about trust, being safe. And that's Yeah.

Also also though, recognizing that a lot of a lot of clients that come have very analytical minds.

K.

They're very good at pattern seeking, very good at logic. So that might that might or or or the pattern seeking might be highly creative, might be highly musical, might be highly pattern seeking might be highly creative, might be highly musical, might be highly scientific, might be highly mathematical, or none of those. But But so I tend to I tend to do an awful lot of what I call psychoeducation Yeah. Because it's explaining what the mind and body do together.

Okay.

And and and that helps a lot because it's like because because you can only NCH, having come to the end of that, that actually your mind and body together are doing a really good job at looking after you. They're just a bit confused. And once that's nailed, that's part of rapport building. So there's a lot of so there's a lot of that psychoeducational side of things, which I then layer on later NCH that knowledge is bedded and the rapport building. But I'll start testing the water in terms of how visual they might be, how comfortable they feel with certain techniques. There's a lot of work initially on getting ready for future pacing. So if you didn't have these sorts of problems, what would you be able to do? What would you like to do? In those situations where you get hijacked, where we feel these terrible feelings, these fundamental aspects of us that rise up and take over, what would you prefer to believe about yourself instead? And they're very, very powerful. Because then when we actually start tiptoeing into maybe things that are more traditionally hypnotherapy, the timeline type approach.

We then use trauma informed approaches within the timeline model to then help the younger version understand these lessons the way they prefer to be. And when you can do that, then the learning is then that memory, if you like, is repaired, the learning is done, and the protection isn't radiating from that any longer.

So

that's where the magic is.

So in terms of so for people who don't know what what we mean by timeline, how would you describe what a timeline approach looks like?

Okay. So I start off, so a timeline, you know, from from birth or sometimes people pre birth, you know, it's, it's the it's the experience that you have historically moving up through to where you currently are and out into your future. Okay. And when we're in a moment, we're associated with it and we're associated with the feelings and they're quite big. So timeline, the timeline approach to therapy is helping people to be able to view their timeline or feel their timeline. Some real kinesthetics need to feel it as opposed to view it. And then helping them understand that they have the power to look at that timeline from a detached dissociated position. And then enabling them, and we guide them, to move back in and look at old events and maybe go in and out of them to feel the fact that you can be associated with the feeling in the memory and disassociated.

But when you've got, when they see they've got that capacity and you've done the preparatory work, you can then help them to re understand that memory from a rational brain position. Because when we're a bit older, we've got more learning, we've got more experience, we can rationalize things far better. So we can go back and help teach that younger self that's, if you like, stuck on the timeline, that the danger is not present any longer. So they don't need to keep protecting us from it. Yeah. So that's yeah.

So say, for example, you know, I was at school and I was bullied by a physics teacher, and, and I would have that feeling today from heart at the time.

Yeah. Well, interestingly, you see, if you came to me, you might not know it's linked to the physics teacher episode. You may not know. It may present very differently. Yeah. You may find that, you know, you might go into a work scenario or presentation scenario, and you start your body starts hijacking you, and you start thinking things that aren't necessarily true, but that's because your logic, your, your logical part of your brain sort of gone offline in a way you've been hijacked by the anxiety response. So you can't necessarily rationalize. And then afterwards, you'd be saying, why do I do that every time? What's wrong with me? Why do I do that? Okay.

So we so so I go in through the somatics, the the bodily feeling, because that's where it's held within within. And then we use the feelings to, and the timeline approach to take us back and the somatics, the bodily feelings should, fingers crossed, doesn't always work first time, take us back to that source code event. Yeah. And then we go back in and we go, oh, that's funny. That's where that feeling comes from. What does that version of you down there in that old memory need to know now? Yeah. Yeah. To help them let go of that feeling.

Yeah. And then when that learning's done Yeah. Then guess what? The protection is not there in that memory anymore. It's been re it's been repaired. It's been Yeah. Oh, I've managed to get rid of my dog. I've managed to I

got one

They're always the way.

Do you know what? Bear, my lovely dog, is normally asleep under my desk until we have a parcel. Yes. We will we will have until that point.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, mine, mine, she's she's got a very good job of protecting us all from the evil delivery person who comes and knocks on the door or alerting us to it. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the best laid plans, isn't it? This is the lovely thing about, I think, online and having these little windows into each other's lives that you wouldn't ordinarily have when you meet somebody out in the world.

Exactly. Well, it, well, it, quite a lot of my clients have great affinity with animals as well. So after we've done the initial more professional, if you like, and we've settled into it, they know who Cathy is and I know who they is, but often the dog will sit behind me. And, yeah. And they they enjoy that aspect. And until the door goes, she's very well behaved.

Exactly. And do you see clients in an office, or are you online? How do you

I do both. So I'm I'm very lucky. I can rent by the Hypnotherapy room. It's not far away at all. There's there's a few of us that share it, so I run a booking system for everybody. So and I can do hybrid as well. Sometimes, often, particularly the youngsters, they wanna see they wanna see me in the flesh to make sure that I haven't got 3 heads and I'm not a complete weirdo. You know? Maybe I am a bit.

Two heads, maybe.

Yeah. And then once they've sussed me out Yeah. They'd sometimes they go, oh, no. I don't mind doing mine now. Some people find online really challenging. And, particularly, youngsters at school, they went from face to face teaching to online overnight, and it really was not an easy thing for them to do. So it's got connotations. So I'm very flexible.

To do both.

And also, I think there there was certainly, over COVID, the Zoom fatigue and the exhaustion of just being with a screen. And NCH, I I can remember because I worked online all the time then. I just might just might give somebody a hug. Yeah.

Yeah. But equally, I mean, when we went into COVID, we were like I remember collectively, you know, our our therapy gang, our questy gang, everybody was like, woah. I've never done online. This is really scary. And we all had to get our heads around it really quickly. But, you know, the beauty of it is it works really, really well. I've adapted everything to, you know, when we have protocols and and safety measures in place and stuff like that. So for those that are happy working online, it works perfectly well, as well as face to face.

And it means, of course, that we can work with clients overseas. So I've had quite a few overseas clients, which is wonderful.

Yeah. And I think I think also when we're looking for a therapist, we can pick and choose. We're not just looking at our location. We can look for specialists in in the area that we need or we can look you know, there's way more choice now than ever before in who we want to be our therapist and who we can choose.

Yeah. Well, I mean and and and I just NCH, it's so easy. So anybody that wants to suss me out, everybody gets a a free half an hour Zoom.

Nice. Yeah.

Yeah. Jump on. Come along. Come and meet me. Ask me all the things you wanna ask me. Let's have a chat. Then you can decide whether I'm right or not. It saves a lot of agro, and it saves clients money because otherwise they'd have to pay to come and actually physically see me.

So, yeah, yeah, it's great.

And I think I think that that I've I'm really passionate about, which is that we can we can choose our therapist. We don't have to stay with a therapist that we don't work with or we doesn't bring out the best in us. We can choose. That's really powerful because, essentially, you know, as a client, you're paying for a service. So

You are. Definitely. Definitely. And and, you know, with the best will in the world, you know, there's a lot of as you know, you know, behind the scenes, we do so much training. We got so you know, there's a lot of, you know, insurances and all that sort of things. So it's not a cheap thing for people to do. It should be accessible to everybody for free, of course, but, you know, it it it it so it's a it's a big investment, but it's a good investment.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is, if you if you pay for a gym and you pay your monthly gym, you could do monthly therapy. There are ways that it I remember going on a a talk about sleep, and the the chap giving the talk said, we are more than happy to spend 1,000 on our televisions. Do you say television anymore? TVs. But we we're not prepared to pay that on a mattress. You know? And it it's it's it's education and prioritizing what what we need at what time.

Yeah. Because the benefits the benefits, the long term benefits that the clients get from working through this sort of stuff, you can't you can't actually put price on it. It changes things. People become the version of them that they were always meant to be. Yeah. Yeah. And I

think slowly by slowly, we get smaller, don't we, sometimes when there are so many life influences and it's easy to close off and and retreat. And actually, life is great when we're in it and we're being ourselves.

Yeah. And and when we understand how we can be in it that suits us, you know, not everybody's an extrovert, not everybody wants to be, you know, but when and I, you know, I'll get back to mentioning the psycho ed, I I play I talk a lot about what what this human form that we all exist within, what it's actually designed for, wasn't designed for now. It was, you know, so we've got this this wonderful piece of kit, but we're dealing with a radically different set of circumstances nowadays. And that's that's a lot of our problem. Trying to make sense. Yeah.

So what are we designed for if we're not designed for now?

Well, we're designed for about 2,200,000 years ago, where where where, you know, the world was very simple, but a lot more dangerous. You know, we've got we've got a really, really amazing mind and body that work in connection with one another. They, you know, you can't, you can't just deal with one aspect and not the other. But if you think about it, you know, very few people around. We were living in small tribes. You know, we were, we were looking for potential danger anywhere because what was out there was life threatening. You know, predators, you know, if we didn't find food, if we didn't find shelter, we we'd die. If we were ostracized by our tribe, that was life threatening.

All social communication has potential to be life threatening as far as our mind's concerned, and that's really insightful when you've got people who have got social anxiety. Well, there's a good reason for that. Yeah. There's a good reason for that. So yeah. So it's, you know, we've got we've got this this mind that's actually pro is sort of processing 90% of what it's receiving NCH because that's a mechanism to keep us alive. Because if we had to think about everything before we took action, we wouldn't have survived as a, as a species. Yeah.

So it's all most of what's going on, which is a frustrating thing for people that come, well, I do this. I don't know why, You know? Well, no. We don't know why because it's unconscious. Yeah. And that that that the the the high ability of that prefrontal cortex that we've got to think about things and rationalize and stay social and be calm. Yeah. It it it can only do a bit of it until it gets a bit frightened, and then it disappears off the scene whilst it's dealing with the life saving stuff. And then it comes back online and we go, oh, why did I do that? Well, I can't be very good.

It must be my fault.

Yeah. It's like, I was thinking about because we were talking about schools earlier, you know, if somebody says test to me, I run around like I'm on fire. Yeah. People have only got to say the word test, and it's like, ah. Yeah. And that and that could be, like, the equivalent of a saber toothed tiger chasing me.

Totally. Totally. Totally. And it's how your body felt it. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the problem. You know, somebody may, you know, it might, might track back to something that that seems quite unthreatening to someone else.

But to you at the time, it felt devastatingly bad inside your body, but it doesn't forget that. It hangs on to it. Yeah. Yeah. It's trying to keep you safe or failing.

Tests.

They're dangerous. They're dangerous. They're life threatening. They're gonna come and kill you. Yeah. Exactly. It's too bad. I know.

I know. It's in it's so in I love it, though. It's so interesting. I just absolutely love helping people understand this. Yeah. Really enjoy that.

Because I think we're because you don't know what you don't know, isn't it? Right? And so just beginning to open that lid and going, oh, that's why that happens, can be therapy in itself without any intervention.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is part of the process. Yeah. You know, people, you know, that you don't need to do a specific targeted intervention. You're you're, you know, we we might look at the the future pacing the way we'd rather be, the way we'd prefer to be in a situation. And once you give them that educational stuff, start off with all that information, then it start act it actually starts to seem possible. Yeah.

And, and that's, that's very powerful, as you say.

Yeah. And so you, so you've been on your own personal journey with the family and understanding, and has that molded and shaped you and your therapeutic work and your coaching work?

Oh, well, I mean, it never stops, to be frank. Yeah. I'm a great believer in I mean, life is a learning journey. I mean, we we can sit, I can sit now and go, oh, I wish I was the way I wish I knew then what I know NCH. But the reality is that's that that wouldn't have been possible. I am who I am now with the knowledge that I've got now because I've lived that experience, you know, and the and I suppose the understanding I have about the educational system and the empathy that I feel for families that are stuck in that comes from my own set of circumstances. You know, my my eldest, you know, it was really, really difficult, very unpleasant, you know, trying to support them through school. And I would cry every day.

And I used to feel like such a failure. And then, but again, and then as I've found, you know, therapy myself and done many tranches of it, as I learn more and more and slightly different. You know, I sort of move around. I'm I'm always very curious about different aspects and what you might might be able to learn. I've I've been shedding my own stuff Yes. Over the years, shedding it and shedding it and shedding it and still shedding bits and bobs NCH. You know? I I love it when therapists go, you know, we're not perfect. We're still finding out about ourselves too, you know, and and Trevor who who who trained me, you know, he says, what's that about? And that's a great question.

When you, when you recognize a response within your behavior, oh, what's that about? So I'm always still inquiring about what's that about within me, but I'm getting closer to who I essentially, the essence of who I am, who I always was meant to be. But, yes, it's been it's been I mean, I don't know if that answers it, but, yes, I I learned loads.

Well, it gives you that insider understanding, isn't it? Like, we were talking about the value of that prehistorical being kicked out of the tribe, and school representing the tribe, that all families have to go through that feeling of if if your child doesn't belong or fit into the school system, every the parents, the children, the family are all experiencing the fear of why can't I be in the tribe?

Well, it's a life threat. Yeah. It's a life threat. And and then when you understand that the anxiety response could present as a fight response, you could be quite angry about it. You could buy, you could be quite combative about it. It could be a flight response where you are overthinking, running away, panicking, you know, it could be a foreign response where you compromise yourself in order just to appease. Yeah Or we could go into shutdown. We become disassociated, detached.

We we we we we shut down. We get numb about it. It's very you know, when we understand that and see what those responses are actually meant to do, it's like, oh, yeah. But, yes, it is. It's it's very challenging.

Yeah. And I think when when one has children that fit into the system, it's so much easier. There there there is hardship, of course, but it isn't that you do not belong, you cannot. And that's so different, isn't it? Because school and the school system represents, like, almost a basic necessity or requirement of society, isn't it? It's one of those structures that we're like

Yeah. We we well, you have to do it till you're 18, but even those that appear to fit, quite often, there's an all whole load of compromise going on underneath at an unconscious level. They might be good at football and fitting with the football team, you know, but, but there are many that are, that is chipping away at the essence of who they are. And then you may not see it until they get to uni. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a whole whole problem there. Or or when they start, you know, when they embark in the working in working life, how many adults, you know, may come with some performance issues and then you find it goes all the way back to experiences when they were much younger?

It took me a long time to realize that I was incapable of working a 9 to 5, Just incapable. No. No. No. And so to modify my life to fit how I worked was hard and a real challenge. But I couldn't do that. And I used to think, how do people do 9 to 5 and have lunch breaks, and arrive on time, and do that every day of the week. It just made no sense to me.

Just Well, Yeah?

It doesn't make sense. Alright? Let's take Tracy and plonker back in the paleolithic era. Alright? You wouldn't been doing waking up at the same time every day. You wouldn't have been getting up and doing the same thing every day between specified hours. So that's why it doesn't feel right. Some people luckily can do it, but some of us have huge sensory seeking needs. We need to be active. We can't sit still.

You know, we we and we're all unique. Some of us are meant to be out there running, hunting, seeking. Some of us are meant to be nurturing, looking after, you know, things back in the cave. You know? But, of course, it isn't. It's it's it's a it's a social construct. But much of the stuff that we've got to deal with now is being socially constructed. And, you know, let's not go down the political agenda because I am quite I could bang on about things like that. But, you know, we're we're, you know, we're we're our current society, our western society, particularly, it's all being, you know, structured by neoliberal agendas and the capitalist, you know, the Catholic regime, you know.

But anyway, that's another that's another subject.

NCH, but I was I can't remember the name of the book, but they were talking about the patriarchal transport system and how trains are designed to get men from home to the city to work. You know, and that's societal, we will take the men straight from there and the quickest route into work. And so all train systems, transport systems are designed for that patriarchal need of work, work, and capitalism, and all of that. Whereas women's journeys tend to be local and around family, children, schools, the arts. So and the the system for transport doesn't work for them because the main routes are into the city and out of the city. If you want to go across the borough to the other side, you've got to get 3 buses if you're lucky, you know. Just all of those subtleties that go through our society, which is we want you to work and work hard and more.

Yeah. And and I I'm hoping. I'm hoping. I feel that there's a bit of a a tidal change. I really hope there is where people are beginning to understand that actually life fundamentally, it's a totally different thing. You know, we need to be connected more. We need to be connected to the environment, you know, poor sort of ecological concerns. You know, we're, we're in danger of destroying what we have.

Yeah.

And actually, we're animals. We're meant to be part of this great, big, beautiful world that we we exist on and in.

Yeah. And it's it's that I look at my dog, Bear, and I look, it's just something as simple as whenever he goes from sleeping to doing something, he does a stretch. He does, like, a front stretch, and he does a back stretch, and and then he's like, right. And now I'm off. And I think, you know, how often do we actually just stretch? How often do we do that? And, oh, just be animal?

Like Yeah. Well, a lot of the a lot of the difficulty within us, if we can't release it, if we can't rationalize it, if we can't work through it, it stays there. And, you know, this is where somatic aspect of stuff that we do is so important because actually, it helps release things. Things, you know, and and and everybody's got their own different belief systems, but this is where I sit. You know? And the more I learn, the more I learn. You know? The more I turn my eyes and go, oh, what's that over there? Let me find out about that. I go, oh, wow. I'll just add that into my pot of knowledge.

I'll have a little bit of that. Thank you very much. It's yeah. I mean, dogs dogs are great.

When they're not the postman.

Yeah. But they're but but but they're protecting you. They're doing their job. Yeah. They're they're guarding you. But mean, you know, they've got their priorities. You know? I'm gonna sleep. When I'm gonna sleep as much as I wanna sleep, I'll stretch all the time.

I will love you today. I'll protect you today, and feed me, feed me, feed me all. Mine's mine's a food obsessed one. But yeah. And they then and and you can see why young people, particularly with these sort of difficulties, they have such connection with their animals as well because it's unrequited, pure love. You know, they feel it. And that's it that is so powerful too.

Well, it's being able to love and be loved without judgment. Yeah. You know, I think these young people have had so much judgment already. Alright? To have that space safe space where a creature just wants to be with you. And and, wow, that's that's a gift in itself, isn't it?

Yeah. 1 of 1 of the, so because because of the the the amount of years I've been working in the, in the field, I'm aware of quite a lot of, special schools run by me, and I was thrilled to learn a a few months ago from one of the families that I've been working with quite a while, sort of doing a bit of advocacy and doing therapy as well. Their daughter got a place there and went to see it, and she came back and she went, yep. Yep, Kathy. I'm going there. And I was like, okay. Because she was a real didn't really like school at all and would quite happily just would rather stay at home. She said, oh, no, no, NCH, no, it's perfect.

And I said, what's perfect? She said, they've got 5 therapy dogs. 5 therapy dogs. And and she took took a picture of the notice board on a visit, and they had pictures up with their names and what their skills were, what they were good at. And that was all she needed to know.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's those things, isn't it? I remember wrangling with, you know, when when I was young, you weren't allowed to choose the subject based on whether you liked the teacher or NCH, or all of those sort of skills. And I made certainly educational decisions based on what I should be learning, not not where I felt the most comfortable. And when my boys were growing and they had to make their choices, their teachers, you could see how they responded in class to dynamic and inspiring teachers. And yet, it's a risk to choose a subject based on your teachers, but they learned that subject just like that. And there was flow, there was energy, there was compassion, and they were passionate about it. And you think, why are we saying don't choose a subject because you like the teacher, when actually, you know, my physics teacher didn't like him.

Never learnt physics. I was too busy being terrified in my class. Well,

yeah. Funny you say that because actually, as it turns out, I've got quite a good scientific mind, but at school, you never would have known that because my, my chemistry teacher could not abide. So I just avoided the subject completely. My physics teacher, similarly. So I have got no science g o levels. I'm that old o levels, you know, at all. But nowadays, it's it's part of my comfort zone. I've been doing a course reset.

I had to learn about, oh, crikey. I've been doing metaphysics. It's a bit of a shock to the system. But, anyway, but yeah. And I'm like, oh, no. Actually, I can do this. I can understand that. I just need to learn it the way that it makes sense to me.

Well, I mean, yeah, exactly. And you can see that what you were saying about your teachers, the fear responses kicked in. You know, that withdrawal or that, just that I'm not going to be present because it's too scary. All of those things, I think.

Yeah. Well, if your anxiety response is triggered, this part of your mind just goes offline. It's like, bye bye. I don't need to be involved because you don't need to be calm, rational because you're in a life threatening situation. When you understand that, you're like, oh, okay. That's why I can't learn, that's why learning is difficult, that's why my ability and my actual performance is such a big gap between them. Yeah.

And then and then it's it's having that compassion, isn't it? That if that fear response in a child or an adult is triggered, they're going to struggle to be present. They're going to need that bit more TLC to regulate again and come back in.

Oh, no. Certainly.

Yeah. I hope that so so what's your future plans? What would you like to bring to Cathy's world? Metaphysics sounds very daunting.

Well, well, I'm exploring lots of interesting things, understanding different approaches that might be in medical trials for for long term anxiety, depression. I'm just, I'm just finding out about that and understanding different way, different philosophical views about the world. NCH. So something that I've been learning about recently is native American Indian perspectivism, it's called. You know, the the whole animism, understanding that actually humans and all the other sentient beings that go on, you know, around us, we all have our place and nobody's more important than the other. And I'm loving learning about that, loving learning about that. So, yeah, I don't know quite. I mean, I've I'm I'm immersed at the moment in another layer of training to add to what I currently know.

Because a lot of the clients that I get coming to me are innately very traumatized and traumatized. A lot of people, some people get a bit irritated with the free use of the word trauma, but when my my understanding is that that's it's the way your body feels when you experience something, not what somebody tells you is traumatic. If it feels very difficult within you, that has an effect. And so I'm informing myself through different slightly different lenses to understand where why some innate core wounds are so difficult to access, and that's that's that's proving very helpful to me at the moment. So, again, it's I I, you know, my training at Quest was phenomenal. I mean, the breadth of the training there, you know, you learn so much. I, you know, I wouldn't be where I am now without that. And then on top of that, I've been I've been like a kid in a sweet shop adding, finding out about new things.

So, you know, there's a trauma informed approach called AMDR, which incorporates aspects of EMDR and parts work and pulls it all together. That's fabulous. So I've added that in as well. So I just keep on learning. I have to I have to I've now learned why I need to learn so much all the time, so I'm not quite as keen to keep on learning as much. More selective, yes, because I worked out one of my one of my limiting beliefs about myself that was eluding me for quite a while. So that was interesting. So I'm looking forward to a little bit of slowing down.

I'm always very, very busy, and I possibly be to be a little bit less busy, but I love it. I love it. It's the best job in the world.

Yeah. I like I like to think of learning in seasons, But I like to learn in the spring, and then work through that, and then find peace in the winter, and then relearn. And so, I allow my learning to be cyclical because otherwise I could learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, like if that's the hungry thing. Because you don't know what you don't know. How engaging is that?

You don't and and sometimes, the more you know, the more you don't know. Oh, absolutely. The more you know, you go, oh, crikey. Oh, now I vote with that up. I need to go and find out even more about that.

Yeah. Or how does that dovetail into that? Does it Or where where do these go?

Where does it fit? Where does it fit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah, my my I love my world. I think it's I feel very lucky to be in the position that I'm in. Yes. I'm looking forward to doing more of that, but learning more about things that I can then help to explain to others to help them understand themselves too.

So I'm not quite sure what that might look like. You know, I'm very keen on I'm quite, you know, from from from a sort of a business focused perspective, I'm aware of the fact that there's a huge gap in supporting university students, and that's something that I'm thinking really hard about. I've been very heavily involved over the last few years in taking the therapy model and helping therapy model be developed in in schools. And, but now I'm turning my attention to how can I maybe develop something that can be really helpful to to those uni students? Because I've had young people go to uni, and I know a lot of them, and it's been a shock to the system. And on top of COVID as well, and it's been a it's been a it's been really challenging for them. And then they start questioning themselves, their value, their worth, who they are, whether they can do this.

Yeah. And it's I think it's so tricky as well because they're on that cusp of adulting where there isn't the support. You know, I know cams and waiting lists are terrible, but equally, that transition from 17 to 18

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And just and so it brings a whole load of challenges. You know? Transitioning is transitioning is a word that is used a lot in special educational needs, trying to move, you know, executive functioning, moving from that task to that task. Well, just think about the transitions involved with going to university, leaving your family, moving away from home, cooking for yourself, washing for yourself, different ways of learning, a whole new cohort of people you've got to make friends with. Yeah. And then you're supposed to be taking on board all this high, you know, high academic level of work. Sometimes it just feels impossible.

Yeah. There isn't enough softness, is there? There's just that extreme exposure from one to another, just like that. Yeah. Just think, yeah, we need a bit more kindness and community. Yeah. Community is so important.

Yeah. Yeah. Kindness and community and support.

Definitely. Yeah. Wow. This is all very exciting. So I I'll wrap up now, but thanks very much for your time. Is there anything that you would like to add before?

I don't think so. I don't think so. It's just, I suppose, for anybody watching, just to understand ultimately the, you know, everybody, regardless to how they feel, they've got all that resource inside them. It's all there. Yeah. Just needs you just need to find or help to find where it is sometimes. But but everybody is teamwork. Therapy is not done to you.

It's teamwork.

Yeah. Lovely. Lovely. And so find the right team player.

Find the right chief player. Somebody that you can see yourself Yeah. Fitting with.

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you again for your time, Cathy. It's been a pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you.

Likewise. Thank you, Tracy.