Hi. This is Paul Zelizer, and welcome to the Awarepreneurs podcast. On this show, we dive deep wisdom from some of the world's leading social entrepreneurs. Our goal is to help increase your positive impact, your profitability, and your quality of life.

Before we get into today's topic, I have 1 request. If you could hit subscribe and do a review on your favorite podcast app, it helps more people learn had to have positive impact through values based business. Thank you so much. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Gary McBarryhill, And our topic is capital plus support, helping native entrepreneurs thrive. Gary is a citizen of the Muskogee Creek Nation, and an investment associate with Raven Indigenous Capital Partners. He joined Raven in 20 21, to help lead Raven's investment in Native American led startups in the US. Gary has worked in Native American Finance since 20 14 and has experience in private equity, tribal economic development, and real estate. Gary, you've done a lot of things. Welcome to our show.

I'm glad to be here. You know, 1 of the great things about working in Indian country is that, you know, if if you're willing to raise your hand and take responsibility, you you get a lot of opportunities to, you know, to to work on things and and help on you know, in in ways that you know, you can't even imagine when when you first when when you first step up. So it's it's been it it it has been it's been a privilege to to help it's helping my community over the last decade in my career. And, you know, it's it's never it it it's never dull. I I love it.

I I so relate with that. You're bringing me back. We talked before we have record part of my previous career, 15 years in community mental health. 1 of my last gigs was as a social worker with a contract with the BIA. And before I knew it, I was at a BIA conference talking about some work. I was presenting at a BIA conference talking about some work that we were doing to bring restorative practices back to some of the tribes here in New Mexico. And I was like, I'm not sure I'm the best person, and they were like, you're going. I'm like, okay. Right? So I I yeah. Incredible opportunities that I didn't expect. I I have a little bit of personal experience with that, and I think you have a lot more. So this work that you do with Raven, we're gonna talk about what it is, Gary, but talk to us a little bit. Like, your journey, how did you get a excited about economic development in Indian country? How did you get excited about supportive native entrepreneurs? And what would a listener who doesn't know who you are what would they what would be helpful for them to know a little bit about your backstory so that we give them some context about the work you're doing now?

Sure thing. My story and my my love affair with native finance goes back a long way to when I was a kid, really. So, you know, I I from the time I was 9, I lived in I I lived in the boundaries of the Muskogee Creek Nation's reservation in Oklahoma. In my great grandmother's house that had been built for her through tribal housing. And it was, you know, it was me and my dad, And 1 of his 1 of his great goals in life was to ensure that I had, you know, that I had my my sites focused on on the broader world beyond beyond our little little piece of Oklahoma. And 1 of the ways he did that was by telling me stories about the the the great financial houses of the past, Kunlobe and company, Lazard Freres, you know, the it was some very funny growing up. Probably the only kid in Oklahoma who, instead of talking about baseball or Dallas Cowboys with his dad, I was talking about, you know, high finance in the in the early 19 hundreds. And, you know, really, really fell in love with the idea that the the flow of capital, the the the flow of money was this incredibly powerful thing in the world. And You know, it that that really that that really that seed really took took root in my brain. It took a long time for it to to germinate into this career, but it was always there from the time I was a kid. And, you know, it it and parallel to that, in my family, we have, you know, we we have always been very, very service oriented. To our to our community. My father worked for the worked for our tribe, you know, my my uncles, my cousins. We've we've all we've we've all done our part to to work for the community, to work for the tribe directly in many cases. And that idea of service was just it was it was never even it never even had words for it. It was just what you did with your life. Because you take care of your family. You take care of your neighbors. You take care of your community. You take care of your tribe. It's just understood. And so these these 2 the the these 2 great themes, these 2 great ideas were were really central to me. And as as I as I matured and as as I began to develop my career, you know, the idea of bringing together these these these 2 these 2 interests, you know, these 2 passions that I have was was very natural. And so when I started my career in financial services, that was the that was the first thing that really came to mind. Was okay. How do I how do I use my position? How do I use whatever knowledge or resources I have I have access to or whatever skills I'm building to benefit my community? That was the first question, and it really took off from there.

I'm imagining, like, 1 house next door, there might be somebody watching, like, the World Wrestling Federation. Right? Or or you have The Pie or or the World Cup, and you all are geeking out on finance. That just makes me smile.

It was it was looking back, you know, a little out of the ordinary, but there's to me, it was it was a lot of fun.

So so you kinda leverage that and you wound up in doing economic development in Indian country. And, like, what were some of the issues you saw before we get into, like, how Raven is working with native entrepreneurs in really unique ways. Maybe somebody some of our listeners might not be familiar with the Indian country. They haven't worked there like you and I both have. But what would you say are some of the issues that you see when you're somebody who's passionate about economic development and you're passionate about making a difference in Indian country, like and there's some unique issues there. Give us a sense of some of those issues.

You know, I I would say that 1 of the 1 of the great issues is is really around the the poverty that that affects so many so many, you know, Native Americans. Whether it's whether it's, you know, very, very visible poverty as you as you see in on, you know, in certain reservations or or more of that that working poverty. That you see with, you know, with urban natives or net native Americans in who might be outside of the outside of the community or off off of reservation. It is a the, you know, the the struggle with poverty, the struggle to to find that that financial and economic security, it's it's a huge issue. At the, you know, at at the household level. And then even when you're talking at the tribal level, you know, making sure that making sure that tribal citizens have the resources they need, you know, to to be able to either overcome poverty or be able to to live securely even though they are in poverty. You know, it's it's a constant issue, and dealing with it is is a constant constant struggle at the individual level level level. Community level even at the governmental level. And, you know, that that lack that that relative lack of of economic resources and economic stability, you know, that that is a tough environment to to build a business. That's a tough environment to to create an entrepreneurial community. 1 thing I've seen in my work in in Indian country is that, you know, native Americans, we're we have no shortage of talent, no shortage of ambition, no shortage of of intelligence and, you know, very grateful to say that as time goes by, you know, we're our educational achievements are are advancing, you know, every day, but it's these it's these economic factors. That lead to a lack of resources. And that lack of resources can, you know, artificially constrain that development, you know, whether it constrains an individual entrepreneur to to to go after a building a micro business, when maybe what they really wanna do is grow a small or medium sized business. Or maybe it constrains someone from from even even trying know, even even trying to to follow their their entrepreneurial dream because they know, you know, there's a family relying on them. Or because they they they've seen they've seen the the economic and security around them, and they they just they they wanna they wanna stay close to the sure thing, the the sure paycheck rather than taking on that that risk, you know, as as a business founder.

And so you got into that world's 20 14. I'm gonna fast forward because I really wanna stay focused on Raven. So tell us a little bit about, like, what at a at a top level, what is Raven indigenous and indigenous capital. And why is like, why was it created?

So 5 years ago, the the founding partners Funding partners for Raven indigenous capital partners came together to address the problem of attracting institutional capital to the indigenous economy. So think of it this way. In in the US and Canada, we we had identified about 300 over 300000 indigenous businesses. And at the same time, at the same time, even though we're in the age of private equity, even though we're in the age of venture capital, the the level of attention that these businesses have from from financial sponsors, from institutional from institutional investors is is very low. And you know, this this suggests there's an obvious there's an obvious disconnect here, an obvious market inefficiency. And so they came together with the vision of creating an intermediary that could connect institutional capital with indigenous businesses, with with this indigenous economy. And and that is the heart of of the work that we do, is is creating a creating a way a a decolonized way, if you will, to bring together this world changing amount of of private investment with indigenous, native American, Alaska native, native Hawaiian, entrepreneurs in in a way that will will build up the indigenous economy without exposing the the indigenous economy to what you might call some the the risk of of, you know, extraction of of these extractive practices that I think many many people in indigenous communities associate outside investment with. You know? They they they look back and they say, wow. You know? We we have we have had these conversations about investment in the past, but it just turned into, well, we we we talked about investing in your community, but we really wanted your resources. Or we talked about investing in your community, but really, we just needed you to sign off on some agreements. And the question becomes, well, where's the benefit to our community? Where's the benefit to our families? Where's the benefit to us? And so with that in mind, you know, Raven Ravenstrive to be the intermediary that will that that that will bring that capital in the right way.

Love that. You said connecting institutional capital to the indigenous economy. Kind of letting that sink in. And listeners, I hope you're like, wow. Just think about that for a little bit. Let that, like, sit on your tongue like it was a cough drop or something or homeopathic medicine. Like, there's a lot of layers there, so I'm just sitting with that. And really appreciating that language was like a light bulb went off. And I had already been hearing about what you were doing. So there's something there. That's great languaging. So give us some idea. When you're talking about institutional capital, like, when we started the talk, and I started to get a sense of the scale here at Weber Evens, and I was like, Oh, wow. You know? So talk to us a little bit about what kind of capital are we talking about?

Well, we we have We work very we've worked with a number of limited partners who are, say, with with the foundation space space who who manage endowments for for foundations. We've worked we've worked also with a number of corporates you know, financial institutions who have made who have made commitments to support investments to to support emerging diverse managers with with anchor investments. And I think 1 of the 1 of the most exciting 1 of the most exciting developments, I think, on on both sides of these relationships has been understanding just just how necessary it is to have a an investment manager, a financial intermediary, who really serves the eye in in BIPOC. Coming from the coming from the Native American community, 1 of the things I've 1 of the things I've always been struck by is how how easy it is to to overlook the indigenous population in in in the US and in the US and in the US less so in Canada, but but, you know, also an issue in Canada. Because when when people talk about when people talk about the need, for for equity, for for, let's say, you know, for for equity and and justice, they it's very easy. For people to think of it in strictly black, white terms or, you know, or or or white and Latin terms. And forget that, oh, there there really is a significant indigenous pop population in the United States. And because of that be because of that that overlook, I guess, you could call it, there comes a moment where the where where these organizations who have these commitments to to supporting emerging managers, to supporting diverse managers look up and say, wow. You know, we we talk about BIPOC, but there's no eye here. And so, you know, in in conversations with them and and during and and through our our diligence process with them, we find out that that Raven is is serving, you know, an an important role, not only not only with the indigenous economy, not only with indigenous entrepreneurs and indigenous businesses, but also with the but also with the institutions who have made these who have made this commitment to racial equity. And, you know, to me, like I said, that that's very exciting because it shows that we are we are leading the way. We are we are creating this this opportunity. For for these institutions to really to to really live up to their commitments even as we even as we support the indigenous economy.

You were talking, Gary, about I put it in quotes, extractive practices. Think this is so key to helping our listeners understand or even not that you're doing extra that you're doing something different than extracted practices. We're gonna get to those literally right after this. But help us understand a lot of our listeners if there is investment made in their business or we're talking smaller numbers. Maybe they don't have experience with a lot of zeros and the VC kind of investment. So give us a sense. Like, if you were gonna do a, like, Here are some of the more common extracted practices of somebody who's been a financial geek for a while. Give us a sense of some of those extracted practice is in the VC or early stage investing in that space?

No. I I would say if I if I could characterize it, it really is about it really is about imposing strategy, imposing a vision, imposing practices that are that are contrary to the to the values of the to the values of the founder. Coming in and saying, Well okay. We we've invested in you now. You know, we have we have this this we have such so much of so much of a percentage of of your equity now, and we have a board seat. And now we're going to use this as leverage to impose our vision. Of of what your company should do to impose our vision of of how you're going to operate. Your our vision of how you're going to to grow and then eventually exit because it's what's best for our organization and what we feel is best for our investors. And your values, your goals, your vision, those are all secondary. And I think that is that is when you get down to it, the the heart of of what we what we see as a as an extractive investment relationship. And I think the fear of entering into a relationship like that is something that that leads a lot of indigenous entrepreneurs to say, no. This is not for me. I'm going to I'm going to do whatever I have to do to ensure that I'm never in a position of vulnerability with with someone who can you know, who who can force me into that sort of relationship.

Absolutely. I think it's especially true for indigenous entrepreneurs, Gary. But I would also add listeners. I would say anybody who cares about value and impact and particularly as many of us as social entrepreneurs are working to benefit marginalized communities. This is 1 of like, people ask me oftentimes, Gary, you probably get you know, is it is it smart? Should I even be considering looking at getting some stage of early investment? And what you just outlined is I don't see it as my role to say yes or no, but here are some things you might want to be asking about. You know, what's your business model and you know, what's your long term game? And but 1 of the near term questions is, who would be investing in you and what kind of values and what kind of endgame do they have, and is it a good match. Right? And if it's not, be really, really, really cautious. About taking money from somebody who's not lined up with you if you're if impact is the front and center part of what you're trying to do. Be very clear that anybody who's writing you a check has they're on the same page about that impact and what that might mean about pace of growth. Because if not, I've seen some real train wreck, and I think you probably have as well, Gary.

Exactly. You know, II1 of the 1 of the conversations that keeps coming up over and over again when you're talking about you know, when we're talking about social social benefit or or social impact as a part of business, there there is a a very deep in many cases unexamined or unchallenged assumption that what's what's good for business, what's good for growth, what's good commercially is necessarily bad for impact, that it's always going to be a trade off, that and and that you've you've got to load up 1 side of that equation or the other. And, you know, that that's that's something that we reject at Raven. That that's something we reject in in how we invest. It's something we reject in how we look for for businesses and how we work with with indigenous founders. And what 1 of the most important 1 of the most important questions we ask when we're examining in in the early stages of of understanding a understanding a potential investment is is there a point in the future where we will have to tell the we'll have to tell this founder, wow, you're going if you're gonna have to choose between living up to your promises to to your community, to to Raven, to to keep up your to to keep up the the level of social impact that, you know, that that that is your goal if to choose between that and doing what's right for what what's doing right, what is what is right for your business commercially. And if we if we see that at some point, that that's gonna become a trade off. That tells us this is probably not the right investment for us. This is not aligned with Raven's strategy. Because we we look for those businesses where the right thing for there were the right thing for the commercial side of the business is the right thing for the for the social impact that business creates. That the the benefit streams that are coming off of this business, that are coming off of Raven's investment in this business, that those that those will grow alongside, you know, the the alongside the the the commercial growth of that business. That that what is right for 1 is naturally what's right for the other.

Love that, Carrie. What is right for 1 is naturally right or the others. Not a contradiction, but you're literally describing social entrepreneurship. Like, these 2 things can actually further, each 1 can make the other more effective. You can earn more money. You can have more positive impact if you're wise about how you put these 2 things together than if you separate them. So -- Exactly. -- I wouldn't I wouldn't be on episode God knows how many by now. We're probably gonna be over 300 by the time this goes live. I wouldn't have 300 conversations like this if I wasn't cheering in my seat right now. You know, I'm totally, like, yes. And, you know, 1 of the things that I that I really love about investing

in in, you know, in in the indigenous economy, in Indian country, is that You don't have to go far to look for mission driven entrepreneurs. You know, it goes back to what I said early about earlier about how this this understanding that you take care of your community, you know, that that it's part of your mission in life to make life better for your for your family, to make life better for your community, for your tribe. That's something that is shared by so many so many native entrepreneurs, so many indigenous entrepreneurs. That it it's not as if you have to go looking for, oh, well, we have to go find the mission driven entrepreneurs because they're everywhere. You know, every everyone who grew up in our communities who understands what our communities need, that mission drive is just so so central to who they are and and why they do what they do. It it makes that part of my job a lot easier. Than than than it might be in in in other in other markets.

Totally makes sense. So let's do this in a minute. I wanna come back and hear, like, what are some of the successful investments that Raven's made? This other part, we talked about Capital Plus support. What is that plus? And about where Raven's headed, But before we do that, I just wanna do a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. Are you facing 1 or more important decisions in your impact business, and you'd like an experienced thought partner to develop a plan about how to proceed in the complex times we're living, But you don't feel the need for an extended coaching or consulting contract that's gonna cost you many thousands of dollars. You're looking for an affordable, targeted, and time efficient type of support. Through paulzollizer dot com, I offer a strategy slash package. These packages are ideal for entrepreneurs who are facing 1 to 3 immediate decisions, like how to increase your positive impact, Find tune your marketing strategies to get more results for less effort. Launch a new product or service successfully, or refine your pricing structure So it's both inclusive and provides you with a great quality of life. You can find out more by clicking below And thank you so much for listening to this podcast.

So welcome back, everybody.

In the second part of the show, Gary, we like to joke about putting on our social entrepreneur classes, and let's get a little more granular. There is a group of Impact podcasters that I lead. And yesterday, they were meeting and they were teasing me how often I say the word granular. But I'm a granular guy. What can I say? So, like, give us a sense of how many organizations has Raven invested in thus far?

Well, we in fund 1. We've invested I I always I always have to I always have to double check the number because I

Because they're a financial geek.

Right. Right. So it the Fund 1 portfolio currently sits at at 10 investments, and our in our Fund 2 portfolio, we are moving ahead with with with 2 investments that are not yet closed, but but should be very soon.

So looking pretty likely that in the near future, that number, I'll be 12. And give us a sense of as much as you can share, like, I'm not sure what your agreements are. Either the company or, like, what kind of businesses are they? Like, what what what can you give like, give us a flavor of some of those 12?

Oh, sure thing. Sure thing. I'll 1 of 1 of the 1 of, I think, Raven's most powerful stories is our investment in virtual gurus. Virtual gurus is a is is a virtual assistant virtual assistant centered 2 sided marketplace that pairs that that that pairs virtual assistance with with people and businesses that need to hire need need to hire, you know, contracts support for administrative work or assistant work. And, you know, this this was a business that was founded by Bobby Rissett, an indigenous woman who was who was rejected an unspeakable number of times by by funders who really who who really saw what she was building and saw where she was coming from and thought, no. This is this is just not for us. And you know, Raven Raven was able to to come in and lead lead investment in in virtual gurus and build this business that is that is centered on creating on on on creating AAA market for work for people who might be who who might be geographically remote or who might be, you know, unable to to work outside the home. Or who have who are or who are from communities that don't have a lot of success in the traditional job market. You know, that virtual gurus provides them with a way to to not only not only, you know, put their skills to work, to to monetize their skills, to monetize their work, but also to to build those skills up and get it and and build up their professional track record and and transform you know, and and transform their, you know, their their their professional prospects in a way that, you know, that that that is I guess, I already said transform, but it is transformative. And, you know, this is this is a great example of sort of mission driven business that I think once people once people understand what this what this is capable of, you know, there there has been there now there is now there is interest from institutional funders who are really, really fired up to to really help virtual gurus grow. But in the beginning, And beginning, there was Raven. And I think it's I think it's a fantastic story about the about the power that Raven has to not only help a not only help an entrepreneur grow their business, but also tell their story and to to share their vision in a way that in such a way that that other funders can't help but notice.

I love an intro because we as we get to request all the time. Paul, who do you know who can help me in the realm of virtual assistance? Like, that's 1 of the most frequent emails I get. So I would love an intro, please.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And in in the US, another, you know, another great story, is our investment in in Todum Technology Bank. Todum is the is is a native American woman owned digital bank or or challenger bank. It's first of its kind. And Todom was founded. The this well, the the the the the seed for Tatum was was planted when Tatum's founder, Amber Booker, she was trying to buy a house. And in in the US, native native Americans who live in in certain regions can get can you do have do have access to a a federal mortgage program that lets that that supports home buying for for Native Americans. It's a wonderful program. The problem is that most banks most mortgage bankers have no experience with it. And she she was incredibly frustrated in in her attempts to buy a house using this the support, this benefit, that was that was created, you know, to make buying a house easier for her. She she just wasn't able to do it because the the finance because the the the general financial services industry didn't understand it. They weren't aware of it. They were confused by it. And her her opportunity to buy this house slipped away. And this this led to her to ask the question, you know, what if what if there there was a banking services provider who understood, you know, understood Indian country, who understood, you know, the needs of native Americans from the start, that that was the core of their business model, was being able to serve being able to serve the the native market without with with, you know, without needing to stop and ask, wait. What does this mean again? You know, that that was built to serve the native market. And so this this led Amber to to found Tatum. And, you know, when when when I heard that story, when when we heard that store and we saw what she was building, you know, that was incredibly exciting. Because the opportunity to bring to to bring, you know, culturally competent culturally competent banking services, to bring bank services that are targeted to the sorts of to the sorts of needs that that native Americans have. Native Americans who are, by the way, the the most unbanked community in America, the most likely to be preyed on by by payday lenders or or so called specialty finance companies because they are unbanked, because they don't have access to these to these services. You know, the idea that she was bringing this to our community in in a way that was informed by the frustrations of of trying to of of trying to get these services as a native person. We said, wow. You know, this is This is this is what this right here, this is the reason Raven exists. Because who outside of our community could hear this story and say, wow. This is this is real. This is this this is a a necessary service. This is a service that that that that has a a, you know, a a powerful market of waiting for it, you know, unless unless you were from the community, unless you had that experience, it it it wouldn't it wouldn't quite click. And so, you know, I was very, very proud to to lead their to to lead their their their first round. And, you know, we we talking about the talking about the the support alongside that You know, I I work work very closely with Amber. She's a she's she's an an incredible, incredible founder. You know, I I say, Now it if if Indian country has a thousand amber boogers, we will do very, very well as a as a community. She's tireless, imaginative, has an incredible incredible persistence And really, you know, working with her, I I it's always a matter of it's always a matter of just seeing what what resource or what what perspective or what connection she might need. You know? But but always making sure that that's led by by her needs, her vision, you know, her her goals. Not again, not not imposing any kind of any kind of not imposing any kind of model for for what sort of support, you know, I'm I'm bringing to that conversation or bringing to that to that work because, again, that's that's really that's not how we wanna do it. Beautiful.

So listeners, if you're new here, check out the show notes. Gary just mentioned the Totem Technology Bank. Go check it out. Checked out. Virtual gurus. Those will be in the show notes, the links to those sites. So, Gary, give us a sense of, like, where's Raven headed? So you've done fund 1. You're working on fund 2. About you're 5. If I heard you correctly, like, if you look ahead, 3 to 5 years from now, what does Raven look like?

Well, the I think the the first and most important goal that we have in front of us is to deploy is is to is to deploy fund 2 to make great investments in the indigenous economy in the US and Canada. And, you know, once once we've we've made those investments and once we're we're you know, and and once we have really got how can I put this? Got those got those relationships on good ground and good good movement. You know, then then I think we start then I think we start looking at, okay, bringing bringing fund 3 to market. But, you know, that that focus on making sure that we're making the right investments in the US and Canada and making sure that we are that we are really living up to living up to our responsibilities in those relationships. Now that's that that's our that's our that's priority 1. You know, that's what we've really gotta be focused on. Definitely not it's not as if we we come to work every day and we think, okay. We're just gonna get this out of the way, and then we're gonna go back and raise another fund. No. Because this is the work that we do. And so when I say what's next what what when you when I say what's next for Raven, I really think it's going to be what we're doing right now, which is building relationships with with indigenous founders, understanding their businesses, identifying which ones are best aligned, with our with our strategy and our our values. And then, you know, working closely with them to ensure that that those businesses those businesses can grow, that they can grow in the right way, and that they can grow in a way that supports their vision for for making for for making life better for the indigenous community. You know, a phrase that I use over and over again when I'm when I'm talking with native founders is is, you know, leaving Indian country better than we found it. And you know, the way the way that I'm with I, the way that we at Raven are are leaving Indian country better than we found it is by doing just that doing that doing that work every day. So, yeah, that's that's that's what's next.

Love that. Leaving Indian country better than we found it. That's what a beautiful vision. So to our native entrepreneurs who are listening, Gary, or to our listener who might know a native entrepreneur, like, We know the stats out there, less than 2 percent of all capital, at least in North America that I under I think that's a North American quote. Baby, it's only US, but less than 2 percent of all early stage investment, money to get in the hands of founders of color. And my hunch is like you were saying, Gary, the BIPOC, the eye, and the BIPOC is oftentimes less than even other marginalized communities. So it might be significantly less than 2 percent. Give some tips. If I'm a native entrepreneur, I know a native entrepreneur, who's got a great idea, maybe has a little bit of hesitancy, like, those extractor practices that you articulated so well, like, I don't know about taking investment. I don't want somebody who's, you know, got bad intent or just sees me as a dollar sign, Tran, Tran, actional. Like, I don't want that. But you're I'm listening to this or listeners go tell your native entrepreneur friends to listen to this if they if they don't yet listen to this show. And and you're sort of, like, helping me, like, be, like, okay. Maybe, like, what help our native entrepreneur colleagues think about who might be a fit. If we take some of the if we could turn down the volume, of the concerns about the extracted practices and say, okay. Maybe it's possible, and I kinda crossed it off the list, and I was just gonna bootstrap it or find some other just keep it really small. What might you want somebody to know who's in a position of they actually have something that could scale And that would be a good investment, but they took it off the table because of those concerns.

Well, the first thing I want want them to know is they are not alone. That there are, you know, that there are other entrepreneurs just like them facing those same questions, those same concerns. So with just remember that first. You're not alone. Others have had these these same questions,

and it's nothing to nothing to worry about there. Yeah. You're not crazy. Right? Like, you there's a good reason you have these concerns. I think am I putting words in your mouth that don't belong there?

And and this and then the I would say the second thing to do is, you know, recognizing that you're not alone, the best thing you can do is reach out. You know, reach out to Raven or to organizations that support other organizations that support native entrepreneurs like New Mexico Community Capital is is a great example. I've I've worked with them in the past, fantastic organization dedicated to to supporting, you know, native entrepreneurship or change labs, another another native focused organization in the Southwest. And, you know, the the small business administration. It it seems it it it's they're they're being part of the federal government, they're they're it's almost like they're hiding in plain sight, but they have such a commitment to supporting native entrepreneurship that it I I have always come away from every interaction I've had with with the SBA. Just I'm just real I'm just saying to myself, wow. You know, these everyone here is is completely for real. You know, they they have a they they have a real passion for for supporting the growth of of business in Indian country. And now I I would I would make the personal appeal. You know? Reach out to me. Just reach out to me. And if I can't answer your question, I I can sure sure find the person who can. Because, you know, it it it in our community, it is it's still very much a person to person model of support. You know, when I was first getting started in in native finance, you know, there there were there there were people who saw me and saw saw that I was getting started, and they said, I'm not gonna let this guy fail. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna give him the the knowledge, the the encouragement, the support to to get past the you know, this the those initial stumbles, those initial mistakes that you make anytime you're starting something new. So that he doesn't fail because we need more people like this in our community. And so, you know, that that is my personal appeal is You know, I I don't I know that we need more native more native entrepreneurs who are building these these scalable businesses who are who who are thinking about ways they can be ready for outside capital. Who are asking questions about what they can do to ensure that their relationships with funders are you know, our our values our our center their values. You know, these aren't extractive relationships. And I I want want them to know we we we I want us that we we're here to support people just like that. And so, you know, reach out reach out to us, reach out to the SBA, reach out to the organizations like NMCC or or ChangeLabs. And, you know, let let's let's talk about let's talk about your vision. Let's talk about your your goals, your values, and then see what out there is aligned with it because it's out there. We're we're you know, I'm I'm seeing I'm seeing people build it build those resources every day. And build them in such a way that we're not asking people in our community to give up who they are to use them.

Gary, this has been such a fabulous conversation. I could hang out with you all day, and you're a busy guy, and our listeners are busy too. And it's bringing me back such I like confluence in my world. I'm like, oh my gosh. This is, like, bringing me back to 15, 16 years ago. Right, when I was doing more direct service work on some of the reservations here in New Mexico. It's like such a confluence of worlds. So thank you for bringing me back. Thank you for the work you're doing. If there was something you were gonna you were hoping we were gonna get to, and we haven't on it yet? Or is there something you wanna leave our listeners with as we start to wind down? What would that be?

I I would say that that as as entrepreneurs, that as prospective entrepreneurs, who come from come from our community. You know, there there's a natural question that that comes up, that is that is about your values, that is about, you know, can can 1 be in business in a way that you know, that that that is aligned with your values, that you're not giving up what's important to you. You're not giving up what's good to to do business, to be an entrepreneur. And I would say that it it's a it's a good question to ask. It's a meaning it's an important question to ask and it means that you're on the right track. And I would say that wanting to wanting to create a business to found a to found a business and grow it. Does it it that's that doesn't that doesn't necessarily come from greed. It doesn't necessarily come from come from a desire to to, you know, conquer or an extract and and just show the world how great you are. You know, that's it it's not a bad thing to wanna to wanna build. It's not a bad thing to want to to create something that that that can affect potentially millions of people around the world. You know, that that can be as that that can be a beautiful, beautiful expression of what matters to of of what matters to our people and what matters to our community. And so I would I would just say that Can you build AAA decolonized business? Can you build an an authentically you know, an authentic authentically native authentically indigenous business that that has integrity to to the values of our community. Absolutely. There is no trade off between that. There doesn't have to be. You know, we've I reject the idea that there has to be. So I would just I I just encourage those those entrepreneurs perspective entrepreneurs to remember that, to to take heart, keep building, And, you know, if you have a question or you you need some help or you don't even or maybe you don't even know who you need to talk to next. Yeah. Please reach out. This is this is why I do what I do.

Harry, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Thank you.

So it happened again. Listeners, if you've been around for a while. Well, first of all, listeners, go check out the show notes. Please go check out Raven Capital site. Please amplify it. Share it. You know what we do in this community when we find good things. Get it out there and get it in the hands of folks. This can really make a difference on the side of the court that says, this can really make a difference. In the lives of native entrepreneurs. So please help get it out there. And it happened again. It actually happened twice. So Gary got on the show because his colleague, big shout out to Nicole Johnny, who I met at an event, said, you should have Gary on the show, and here we are. So thank you, Nicole. And I tell you that story to just let you know when I say, like, we love listener suggested topics and gals like, this 1 wouldn't have happened. I also got an email from the good folks at Carmen Collective, former guests on this show about somebody they're working with. So I tell you that to say, if you listen to the show, you know what we're looking for. Please tell us who you think would be a has just do an incredible work and has a great story that maybe hasn't been amplified as much as it deserves to be. Send them on in. Go to the Wepreneur's website. Look at our contact page, and you get a sense of our guidelines. If you think it's a good fit, please send it on in. So for now, I just wanna say thank you so much for listening. Please take really good care in these intense times, and thank you for all the positive impact that you're working for in Norwalk.