Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify and the usual places to plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 83 with the title uplifting queer Genius. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Dr Joel Davis Brown. Joel describes himself as a change agent that has too much stuff going on.

When I asked Joel to describe his superpower, he said queer minded creative problem solving. Hi, Joel, welcome to the show.

Good morning. Or I should say, good afternoon. It's a pleasure to be here. Nice to meet you.

Absolutely. Joel, we've just had an amazing warm up in the green room, so I'm looking forward to this conversation no end. And we came up the title uplifting. Queer Genius. So what's all that about, from your perspective?

I think, well, we're at a time in global history where queer people are being denounced and how should I say it? Discriminated against, criticised, misunderstood, on, in new and not so new ways. And what is ironic is that a number of the skills that the world needs in order to create a world that works more perfectly for all of us, a lot of the things that the queer community embodies are those very skills. And so this is an opportunity for us, as a community and as a world, to start to fully recognise, appreciate and understand what queer people bring to the world from a leadership standpoint, from a transformational standpoint, from a spiritual standpoint and from a global standpoint, in order to take advantage of our talents, to honour our gifts. And hopefully, I would hope, as a byproduct, to make more space for us in the world, given the beauty that we possess and the things that we naturally use and utilise just by virtue of being queer. So there's a lot there that we naturally, I think, bring to this space, bring to the world, bring to a lot of different dimensions and regions and parts of the planet. And I think it's about time for us to spend some time really examining what those are and really giving breadth to how queer people actually benefit the world, as opposed to this persistent narrative, which is one where people see us as a threat. So that's what the whole idea of Uplifting Queer Genius is about, is giving change the narrative and starting to view queer people in a more full bodied way than we have previously.

That's quite interesting. The way you say that, because I would call myself describe myself as queer. I'm a trans woman. And what you're saying there about this queerness as a superpower within us that the world needs more of to balance out some of the things that are going on, I'd never really thought it in that terms. I transitioned seven or eight years ago effectively, and I felt an immense sense of freedom, an immense sense of enlightenment and empowerment within myself as a result of that. I put a lot of that down to my gender identity. But maybe there's a whole different dimension in there that you're talking about here, around the extra dimension of queerness. Not just around gender, it's around sexuality and the multifaceted nature of queerness that brings out that real richness of difference of experience that maybe straight people, CIS people have that, as you say, they see us as a threat.

Because we're prepared to challenge the status quo, break out societal norms, not be living to the constructs of social society that they've defined over the years. Is that what you're saying there? Is that the influence of what you're saying? Is this empowerment we have that maybe we bring to the world, or is it more than that?

I think it's more than that. I think it starts with empowerment. What you described is a beautiful process of self discovery and self realisation, of going within to learn more about yourself so that you can be your full and best self. Even that in and of itself requires courage and commitment and a certain level of energy that a lot of people choose not to possess. I'm not going to say people don't have the capacity, but people choose not to possess. And what you have experienced is what a lot of queer people, a lot of trans people, a lot of LGBTQ plus people have experienced, because we have to in order for us to be fully who we are, we have to excavate our truths. We have to understand our realities and our worldview. We have to give voice to our full identities and our aspirations.

And in doing so, we help to create freedom for ourselves. Just modelling that process, I think, is something that could be a benefit to a number of people and to a number of global citizens. Because how many of us actually take the time and actually create the space to be fully free? And I'm not speaking just in terms of historical systems of oppression. I mean to give ourselves permission to be free. Regardless of whether someone says, I deem you worthy of freedom, I deem you worthy of love, I deem you worthy of being happy or being fully expressed as a human being, we give ourselves permission. And I think that by itself is a needed revolution in the world where people stop looking to others and followers on social media and other people to give them permission to be themselves. And to be their brightest light. We do that for ourselves.

That is a very important and understated aspect of leadership to say, I embrace who I am, I appreciate my talents, I know that I can influence my environment just by being who I am. But before I can influence my environment, I have to first be clear and to lead myself. That's the first step of leadership. And queer people do that every single day that we decide and we come out consciously assert, this is who I am. And I think the world could use that. And beyond that, there are, I wouldn't call them unique traits, but there are aspects of our culture that I think really need greater visibility in the world. There are aspects of who we are that need greater practise or elevation. And a lot of that, I think, has never been fully explored because for a number of people, when they think about queer people, they reduced us to a stereotype, to a caricature, or they have just come to the conclusion that this community is not worthy of study.

So therefore, the idea that there's something of value that we bring would seem absurd to them, even to some members of our own community. And I think now is the time, through my own journey and my own research, that I realise we actually bring a lot. And what we bring is essentially what a lumber of people are asking for. And that is our cultural genius. That is the acumen that we have naturally, by virtue of being queer people. That serves us in an ever changing, ever evolving society. And I think more people could benefit from it if they simply took the chance to see us in our full light.

Do you think this is rooted in introspection? Before I came out to myself, we all have to come out to ourselves first. We're the first people we come out to. And that whole exercise is around self analysis, self questioning, introspection, who am I? What's important to me? Until I went through that process, I probably never considered those questions to myself in the rest of my life. So it's some of our power, the fact that we are self analysing, we are questioning who we are, we are working out our position in society and that's where our camaraderie within the queer community comes from. Maybe because we've all been through that place of discovery, I think, as you put it, we have to come out all the time, so we're constantly making choices about who we come out to, how we come out, our safety, the benefit to us, all that impact. So those decisions are going on in our head every time we step out the front door. As a straight person, a non queer person, you probably don't even realise that you have to have those thoughts.

No, you probably don't. Or you take them for granted, or you don't use them as often as you could. And like anything, any talent, any muscle, the less you use it, the weaker it becomes, to the point of where it almost seems like it's nonexistent. What we give our attention to, what we prize in a society or in a particular cultural group, is a value. So if we say, for example, that we prize or we value creativity, then that is a value. If we say that we value inclusion, that is a value. If we say that we value money, that also is a value. And depending on the particular group we all have, every group within the world has a sense or a core set of values.

And we typically think about values from a very nationalistic standpoint. So you'll hear people, for example, say, in the UK or in places like or any country, it could be Kenya, it could be Singapore, it could be Japan, it could be Chile, it could be the US. Well, what do you all stand for? And there are certain principles that countries, nations, people organise around to say people of like, mind are here. Or if you are part of this group, this is what you subscribe to, this is what you believe in. That doesn't mean that people don't have individual differences and that doesn't mean that people don't have serving values that perhaps they lean into more than others. But what I would say is that with the queer community, there are values that we support. That, for example, the idea of interconnectedness that are really important and who doesn't need more interconnectedness now, particularly after the COVID-19 pandemic? And given the fact that we've see loneliness become a bigger issue in the social sphere. Even before COVID-19 even came on the global scene, there were a number of countries, denmark, Japan, New Zealand, the UK, the US, that were focusing on loneliness because they said, and they realised that there were pockets of the population that were feeling more estranged, more disconnected.

And here we are as a community, has spent a lot of time out of necessity, to build community, to build connection, that doesn't mean we're perfect. So if our community has been able to do these things at the risk of being harassed, discriminated against, even killed or hurt, and we've never been able to do them, well, I would think most people in the world if I were studying a group I heard about this group that, despite the odds and despite very few resources, was able to do these miraculous and powerful things in the world. I'd want to learn what they were doing, I don't want to learn how they were doing it. I didn't want to study what their model is. And that's where I think we have an ability and opportunity to teach. Because we as a society, we as a group have been able to do things in our society that others probably wouldn't be able to do. Given the level of deprivation that we've suffered from a legal, political and social standpoint that's, again, part of our cultural genius. How do we do that? How do we maintain that? How do we keep that flame lit? Those are the things that we don't talk about enough.

So there is the aspect of being out and proud and engaging in self realisation and being self determinative. There's also that aspect of, wow, look at this community that here. There are 71 countries that have passed anti or have open discrimination or discriminatory laws against LGBTQ people. There are, I think, at this point, 37 countries that explicitly have laws that are hostile to gender nonconforming populations. And yet we still are able to do some pretty remarkable things, not the least of which is exist. So that is part of our superpower and we're so used to doing it that we don't think it has great consequence, when in fact it does. The fact that you and I are having this conversation, the fact that you created this platform and this podcast, there's something powerful in that and I think a lot of people could learn from that because a lot of people are looking for inspiration, they're looking for hope, and I think we can offer that.

So, as a community, yeah, I get what you're saying. Our long standing fight against marginalisation oppression. So you are a black man. How does the intersection of racism and queerness differ? As a marginalised black person, you must have experienced discrimination from a different vector. Is being black a similar empowerment to queerness or it's a different experience that you can't compare the two? I'm just really curious as to where that intersection kicks in. And is there a commonality between the oppressed community and the spirit and the problem solving within it, or is it something unique to queerness?

I would say there are some similarities. However, the way that queer people have been able to create it or fashion it or to design it is different. The same way that for a black person or for black people, it's different. And I think, like any superhuman beings, our tools and our superpowers are just slightly different. So you may see one superhero that they're able to shoot a beam through concrete or through some precious mineral, whereas another superhero might be able to or super person excuse me, might be able to fly and another one might be able to speak with animals or whatnot. I think we possess unique, indifferent talents and that doesn't mean that our talents are exclusive and it doesn't mean that other groups and communities don't have them. One of the things I like to remind people is that people of colour, or I know in the UK, I think it's black, Asian, minority, ethnicities also are part of the community, so it's one and the same, right? So there's not always this distinct difference between the groups. You have people of colour who are queer in the community and those superpowers have been embellished, expanded upon or enhanced by their experiences in different areas.

So I think there are different experiences. They're not as different as we make them out to be. It's like having a cousin. So you have a cousin, know you're connected, you have something in common that would be the human experience, but their life is completely different than yours. Let's say they're living in Manchester as opposed to living in Portsmouth, and that's how I think it is. When we look at diversity overall, is that, yes, a number of us, all of us have different identities and, yes, they can be distinct, but we all come from the same mosaic. And the emotions and the realities are not all that different. They just show up a little bit differently and that allows us to maintain our individuality or our unique experiences, but also to recognise that in the whole, there are a lot of things that we encounter that are not all that rare and that are not all that different.

You can't talk about white supremacy without talking about heterosexism and you can't talk about patriarchy without talking about cisgenderism. They're all connected, right? And just the way that these things play out is just a little bit different. So that's how I think of it. I would say to you there are definitely times where I have to use my black superhuman powers and there are times when I use my queer superhuman powers. I think at least with black people, there has been at least some recognition, albeit slight, that the way that we think and the way that we are relational and the way that we are community minded is an asset. And I still think that we're at the very beginning of looking at queer people from an asset based perspective, even for those of us who are allies. I've heard things like where you like to party, you're lively and I say, well, perhaps there are some of us who like to party, but what is the deeper value that speaks to that? So that requires us to go deeper. And what that requires is for even our allies and even ourselves to go beyond the idea and the belief that they know who we are to actually say, well, do you actually know what it's like to be us and what we actually stand for? Because what you see when you say that we like to party or we like to be lively is what's sticking above the waterline.

It's the iceberg that sticks out. But have you taken time to really be clear as to what more we bring to table, where that comes from? So if I'm I remember a guy on a plane said to me I was going to some queer event conference and he said, oh, there's going to be a lot of parties. And he thought he was being endearing to me when he said that and I said, Well, I don't know about going there to party. I said, I do appreciate that people do want to celebrate and that comes from an idea of wanting to be closer and to connect with people, but also wanting to honour who one is. And if you frame it that way, then I think a lot of people can understand it from a deeper level and have more appreciation for how important it is for all a billion of us human beings to honour and celebrate who we are, as opposed to just thinking that we want to go party. So that's where I think for the queer community, I would love to see more exploration and more research and more humility to say maybe we don't understand well, we know that we don't understand this group and maybe we can do more. And I think the black community has that as well. And I would say that there are a lot of parallel synergies and energies between the two groups and there are obviously some distinct ones.

And I just think that right now, the queer community, I think a lot of minoritized communities, but I think the queer community needs we need to take the reins of our narrative and stop allowing other people to define us in ways that are completely disrespectful to our cultural legacy and to who we are.

How much do you think the media plays in this?

Because.

Going back a few years, ten years, 20 years, the media used to trope and stereotype queer people in a certain way, as you say, the camperness, the flamboyance, the party, the elements of queerness we can all see represented in the media. But lately I've noticed a real shift where people aren't centering someone's queerness in the storyline, they're by the way, they're queer. There'll be a kiss later on, there'll be a handhold, there'll be a look, and you can go, oh, they're going to kiss in a minute. And it's quite an emotional thing from a queer perspective to see that queer representation without it being the whole point of the movie or the whole point of the episode, and it becomes a voyage of discovery in the same way that heterosexuality is just a by the way thing. And I think that I see a shift in the media, but before that it was all stereotypical leading to the you don't seem gay, you don't sound gay to me. Those kind of microaggressions and tropes that come out. Are we seeing a shift in the media now?

Yes and no. I think the media at the and I think we all know this, the media at the end of the day is entertainment business and so it's trying to put out whatever is most expedient and what's going to get most people's attention. I do think what's changed is that there are more queer people in the media and there are more allies in the media and people recognise our humanity. So that the difference. The perceived weirdness of us is not as much of a storyline because we're human but at the same time I also think, as opposed to downplaying our queerness, I would love to see more recognition of what our queerness really stands for. So there's one of two choices that you can make. If you have had a history, as the media has, of distorting, mischaracterizing and stereotyping queer people, you could downplay it and not talk about any difference at all, just say, oh, they just happen to be two people who are queer. Or you could say, maybe we need to think about how we present queer people in a more positive, affirming and culturally respectful light.

And I would love to see more of that too, because there's parts of me as a queer person that, yeah, this is a queer thing that you might be experiencing and seeing. But let's talk about where it comes from and why it's important and how being in the crucible known as human existence as a minoritized person has contributed to this as opposed to just downplaying it to something that's not culturally informed or rich, layered, nuanced and complex. So I think it's a both. And has the media improved? Definitely. Are there still more opportunities for us? Yes, and I think one of the ways in which the media can improve its representation of us is not focusing just on the cisgender, straight male aspect of our community. I've been in many situations where people have said to me why don't we see more trans people? Why don't we see more bi people? Why don't we see more people of colour? Why don't we see more women? I'm like, well, we don't have enough time to talk about that. But at the same time it's not that complex because we have the same forces of racism and sexism and cisgenderism and ableism and all those sorts of things are still very much at play within our community and in terms of how people portray our community. So that would be something nice.

And I think also seeing us in a more of an intersectional lens and recognising that. For example, what someone represents as queerness is and may be informed by their ethnicity and by their idea of gender, and that may work for them, but that is not how the rest of the community see itself. So I think the next chapter for us is and for how we're viewing the society as a whole is to see more of our multidimensionality. You see we are being recognised more for our humanity. I think there's more work that can be done, but I think also recognising more of our identity and recognising, too, that, yes, many of us have achieved some level of privilege, but there are still many of us in many countries around the world who don't have freedom. And I think that's the thing that concerns me is this trope of, oh, you all like to party. You all just are very lively. Can give the impression that we're still not being persecuted, which of course we are.

So those are things that I worry about because I want us to have a broad lens where we look at the community to not create the tragic queer person stereotype, but also not to create the party. Everything's okay and nothing's wrong and everything is just and perfect, because that's not true either. And also making sure that we represent all the communities. One of the things I love to say is we are one community, but many people and I would love to see us represent and show more of the people aspect, too.

Yeah, I prefer the term communities rather than community because we have multiple communities coming together and there's no one representation, no one view. Really interesting what you're saying there. As a trans woman, one of my ultimate aims is to be perceived as a CIS woman, ideally. So in some areas I want to downplay my queerness and my difference and blend in as much as I can. So my objective in some respects isn't to party, isn't to go out and be visible and flamboyant or express myself openly. Just I almost downplay it. Dress for the supermarket. I don't want to be obvious.

I'm just thinking as you're talking, I'm looking to hide my queerness. Not because I'm ashamed of it, because as a trans woman, my ultimate aim is to blend in. That's what I'm looking for. So everyone experiences their queerness differently. But, yeah, obviously I'm proud of who I am. I'm proud of being part of the community. I'm proud that, as you say, there's this superpower, there's this camaraderie, for want of a better word, this shared belief in we are more having a level of empowerment and change agents. So I completely get that.

But I feel sometimes that my objective really goes against it's about blending and hiding. So how does that rationalise?

Well, when you say hiding, I guess the question I would ask for you, is it hiding because it's just your personal sensibility or because you are wanting to maintain your level of safety?

It's not about safety. It's about my objective of transitioning is to realise my female potential and by expressing myself with the trans adjective, if you like, it's creating a I'm not as good, I don't pass the test. I failed in my persona to convince you that I'm female. So it's all about trying to blend in as a female persona. I didn't transition to be perceived and read as a man. I transitioned to be perceived and red as a woman. So for me, an element of my identity is not to stand out as a trans woman. Although professionally I'm professionally trans.

I talk about it all the time. Just when I go shopping in a supermarket, I want to take my trans hat off and just be a woman. It's a different expression, no doubt. You go to the supermarket, you don't want to go to the supermarket as a gay black man, you just want to go there and buy some eggs.

That is true. Joelness is the thing that I go by first is I want people to just see me as Joel. And, yes, I don't want to bring undue attention to myself, but I think this is where my blackness also has helped me in many ways, because I realised that no matter what I do, people are going to see me however they see me. And people sometimes are going to see me as different, even just by walking down the street, even by going and buying tomatoes or pumping gas into my car or going to the movie theatre. And so I think with that there comes the comfort of I have to just be who I am. Because no matter what I do, people are going to have their expectations and their beliefs as to how I should behave, how I should show up, or they're going to have their reactions to how I am or who I show up. And there's nothing I can do about that. And because my skin tone is going to be one that people are going to notice readily, I don't get away from that.

So with my queerness too, I think the goal for any person, at least for me, I'll speak for myself, is to be a fully integrated person, which means I am all of me, all of the time. And when you sample me or when you experience me, you're going to necessarily get a little bit of blackness, a little bit of queerness, but you're going to get a little bit of Americanness, but you're also going to get some Midwesternness. You're going to get some Agnostic aspect of me. You're going to get the sports lover in me, you're going to get the artist in me. You're going to get the person who is very much the anti American. You're going to get all sorts of things and have all those things sampled and not feel like I have to pull back the one, which is the queer aspect of it. So that's where it really comes from. It's not so much that I'm trying to blend, I just want to be able to have everything show up as it would naturally in any environment, and not feel like I have to be diminished in that in some places, it's going to come out more so than others.

And I think from the black standpoint and of course, our journeys are different, it's just a matter of people are going to think whatever they want to think. So I'm just going to be me and whatever they need to think. As I'm in the grocery store, they'll think wherever they need to think. When I'm in the gym, they'll think. And whatever. They need to think when I'm on stage speaking to an audience, they'll think that as well. And at all times, I'm still just going to be me. And so that's part of our unique journeys, right, is that, yeah, we want to blend and that sometimes we just can't blend.

We are the part of the stew that no matter how much you heat it, no matter how much you stir it, no matter how vigorously you try to blend in those ingredients, some are just not going to blend. And I think I've gotten okay with that and just realised that's just part of my experience as a queer black man in this world is that there are parts of me that will never blend. And sometimes that's frustrating, but most times that's okay.

Yeah, I agree completely. When I speak on stage, I know you do as well in front of audiences. And I'm not looking to hide who I am. In fact, the only thing I hide until the last second is my voice. Because I know my voice gives me a shock, a power, something to surprise people, get them to look up and pay attention, because they see me on stage in a dress, wearing heels or whatever I'm wearing, and my voice is incongruent. And that creates a kind of a snap moment. So I use it as my superpower. I recognise it.

I'm not going to change my voice. It's mine. I've had it all my life. I'm not changing for you. And I also have people who are style consultants, do my colours or get my outfits and I say, Look, I'm trans. People look at me wearing a dress and they have opinions. I don't need you to tell me what I should be wearing either. I'm going to stand up here and express myself, not what your version of what looks good on me.

I want my version of what's good on me. So I'm very much more self assured about my own sense of identity and it's about how I feel and the impression I create that I want to stage manage. I don't want someone to stage manage me for me. And I think the empowerment I have by transitioning is recognising that I have the power over myself to express myself as I wish, and not to be governed by constructs or societal expectations. So, yeah, I like to look good, but I like to look good my way.

And that in and of itself is not common. The level of consciousness and the way that you're living signals to me or is a way of being that many of us haven't and don't achieve the ability to say, I'm going to not only separate myself or distinguish myself from interpersonal expectations. Familial expectations, but also systemic constructs is a pretty powerful thing to do, and it's not commonplace. That is one of the things that we, I think, are able to inspire and motivate other people to do is to say, are you questioning that's part of being queer minded? Are you questioning what's been handed to you? Or do you just accept that there's either this way of thinking or this way of thinking? Do you look at the truths that are set before you as being infallible? Do you take the philosophies and the ideas around the world and heaven and hell and do you accept those as unbreakable? Or do you look back and say, there's a different way that I can think about this and I don't have to be beholden to what's shared with me or the two polemics that have been laid out for me. I can actually look at something different. That's the very essence of queer mindedness. And to do so in a way to explore our own journeys and our own identities, but also to help the world to be different. So that is what you just shared, which I'm sure I don't want to say I'm sure maybe for you, you might think, no, that's just who I am and that's just my way of being.

And I'm very comfortable with that fact. That's not so common. And that, in and of itself, is just one of the very powerful but delicate ways in which I think we help to bring in a different perspective, where people say, I don't have to live a certain way. I don't have to think a certain way. I can be open to love, expression, identity, actualization in so many different ways. Which then means if a person can be powerful then the communities, the institutions, the groups that they inhabit become much more affirming and heart centred and human centred as well, as opposed to the opposite, where they become and remain these archaic, formulaic state institutions that many of us are trying to break from in many ways. But many of us have resolved that we'll just deal with them as best we can and maybe we get away from them by going on vacation or buying a bunch of stuff on the internet or by having addictions or whatnot. There's something to be said of saying instead of going into the matrix and accepting that I'm going to swallow the red pill and choose to see life as this and be different.

Yeah, I'm sure like you, I often walk into a room and I'm likely to be the only one. The chances are I am one of a very small minority of gender diverse people in the room. And I think you have to kind of get used to that level of uniqueness and the attention that brings, even if it's not overt discrimination or anything like that. It's just the kind of having to explain yourself sequentially or having to be representative of yourself all the time, even getting a coffee or even hanging out in the lobby or whatever it may be, or going to the toilet and having to have that cognitive load about being different. And I think I took the choice that rather than you trying to work out or guess who I am, I'm just going to put it out there, just own it and say, look, you don't have to quit. But the difference is, I think professionally that's okay, but in the supermarket, I want to take that load off and just hide. Not hide, you know what I mean? Just chill. Because it's a huge pressure, a cognitive load, to go into these spaces and have to be something not fake or inauthentic, just be kind of a stage managed model of who you are.

It's hard to relax.

Yeah, I call it the difference between having to be focused all the time and just being able to casually flow and allow yourself just to be it's like the ability to be carefree, which for, again, for a number of people in society, that's their privilege. You don't have to think about these things. What you say, do, how you operate, is seen as a norm. You're not questioned, you're not challenged. You don't have to think concretely about, oh, if I'm walking down the street, I hope this person doesn't think I'm trying to rob them, or if I'm in the store, how much do I have to navigate or negotiate someone's expectation or belief that I shouldn't even be in the store? I have that all the time. I remember, for example, I was getting into a Lyft or an Uber. I don't know if they have that in the UK, if it's called Uber or Lyft or there's some other UK equivalent. And I had a bottle of water, and so I get into the car and this guy says to know you can't drink in my car.

I said, you mean I can't ingest water? He said, oh, I thought that was like what we would call here in the United States, a 40 ounce, which is kind of a derogatory. It's a very charged word because what it suggests is you're drinking beer, but it's almost like you're someone who's drinking beer from a tavern, but you're just kind of out there during the day doing nothing and having a good time and probably up to no good. You're a miscreant of some sort. And when he said that, and then he realised his mistake and I'm thinking, here, I can't even get into the ride. You're assuming that I'm somehow guzzling some beer when all I'm trying to do is stay hydrated. Because let me put this in Celsius. It's 30 degrees Celsius out here.

It's hot.

So the last time, I'm just drinking some water. So, yeah, it does get exhausting to do that. And so that's where we have to give ourselves grace and compassion and say, Just be. And you don't have to fight all battles all the time, and at the same time realising that when those incidents happen, that's not your issue, that's not your problem per se. Yes, you may have to deal with that situation, but you're not the cause of it. Again, to see yourself as who I am is beautiful, essential to the world. I am perfect as I am, as opposed to the deficit model, which is or operating from the deficit model of I've done something wrong or who I am is wrong and that's why this happened. As opposed to I'm.

Good. And this is somebody else's stuff that they need to work through that's. The balancing act with any of this is to be yourself and understand that being yourself means that you take care of yourself. You prioritise yourself. And that you are many things and one thing that you can also be proud of to use your queerness. It's not something that you need to hide from or that you need to subjugate or suboptimize because that is part of what makes you just as beautiful as anybody else.

Love that we're chatting before I push the record button in the green room, we talk about the economic or political climate in the US. You also touched on the fact that 37 odd countries around the world criminalised same sex behaviours, if that's the word I want to use. Same see acts. Some of those include women, some of those include trans people, some include death penalties, some include imprisonment, incarceration, meetings, whippings, whatever it may be. We're seeing a rise of this kind of division in the US as well. And the US is a massive country, coast to coast, top to bottom, and you're almost a microcosm of the world where it's becoming illegal to be trans, illegal to be gay, legal to talk about it, legal to express it. And you have to almost double think where you can travel, where you can live, who you can hang out with. I've looked at people on LinkedIn when I'm connecting, checking which state they're in as to how likely they are to want to have a conversation with a trans woman because they're coming from a southern state or a state that you know is potentially hostile.

The climate is hostile, the political climate in that state is hostile. So how do you navigate living in that toxic, developing political climate in your own country?

I'm so over the US. On some level, I am so over the US. And when I fantasise about moving places like Spain or the Netherlands or going to Kenya or to Singapore, the reality is there's no place to go. It's happening in different levels. And part of what's happening in the US is part of what's happening across the world in places like the UK and France and Hungary and Poland and Russia and Italy and Spain and the Philippines and Chile and Argentina and Brazil and Ghana and Uganda and the list goes on. Singapore as well, China, the list goes on and on australia. So I think that's the first thing we have to realise is that this is part of a larger global trend and the US has its own role in it. And I think the US.

Has a very important role because we're exporting a lot of our ism a lot of our prejudice and a lot of our methods, right? So the whole idea of fake news and a lot of the autocratic behaviours that we've seen in the US have been mutually reinforced and have taken other countries as well. It is very difficult until you remember the history. And that's where I think it's really important. So 2016 to 2020 was probably the most dystopian time I've ever had as an American. When Donald Trump was president. I thought to myself, if he is reelected, I have to leave this country. Because it was just madding every day to wake up and to think, okay, how else are you making the world a miserable place? And as you and I were discussing before, there's almost like this patchwork quilt of jurisdictions, of states where here it's okay to be queer and here it's not. And it can be very easy to fall into a sense of helplessness until you start reading and learning and remembering our history.

And when you go back and you track our history, you learn about all the people who were able to do miraculous things, powerful things. Let me just take it out of the realm of being miraculous. They were able to be authentic and live their lives and they did so in the midst of very repressive laws. Then that tells me that we can handle what's being thrown at us now and we'll be okay. This stuff tends to be cyclical and right now we're at the bottom of the cycle or we're at a low point in the cycle. And I think the reality is that the fantasy would be to think we could escape it by moving someplace else. What I would love for us to do as a community, but also as a globe, is to start talking more across national lines about what we can do to support each other. Which means that people in the Global North and the Global West have to show greater humility and be open to learning from those, our friends in the Global South and the Global East, what we can do differently and what we can do together to counter some of this stuff.

Right now things still seem kind of bizarre because, yes, there are 71 countries that have criminalised same sex relations. There are 37 countries that have made it de facto illegal to be trans or gender nonconforming and at the same time think about where we have come. And so our legacy is one of persistence, one of commitment and one of fighting for ourselves and advocating for ourselves. And we have to remember that. And we also have to make sure that we find times to rest and to enjoy our lives and not to be in a constant state of vigilance because it leads to burnout and it can zap our energy and it can take away our life pulse and our life force. So there are times, and quite frankly, I just said to someone the other day, they asked me where my partner and I are looking to move to a particular state. And they said, well, why don't you move here? You can come here and join the fight. And I said, I want to come someplace and live.

I don't want to come someplace and fight anymore. I've dedicated 40 plus years of my life to this. I deserve to have at least maybe ten years of just watching Netflix, toiling in the garden and walking around the neighbourhood with my dog and I have to worry about some of that stuff. And the reality is, too, that sometimes that's just not possible. So I pick and choose my battles. I always look for inspiration from my friends abroad, like yourself, who are fighting along the same front. And I also take times to rest. And I also realise too that in some way, because I don't want the next generation to have to experience the things that we're experiencing, I cannot completely abdicate my responsibility.

And so I'm selective, I'm intentional, I'm always strategic and savvy and when it's time to speak up, you speak up. And that's the best that any of us can do. And that's, again, been our historical legacy since time immemorial of what queer people have always done, is say, we're going to be here and we're not going to back down and allow someone to tell us who we can be and what we can do. So it's difficult, there's no easy answer. And I think having conversations like this can only one build connection so that we can lean on each other when we do feel tired and zapped. But we can also feel inspired by each other and continue to support each other in different ways and know that each of us, collectively, but individually, is marching towards the centre and marching towards a place where we can all be free.

It's easy to sort of demonise a certain group of people that are instigators of these views and these beliefs. I would always use the expression the Christian far right as a kind of a body, well funded, monetized agendas, around perceived agendas, around family values. But a lot of it is just around the patriarchy trying to exert, control and create division. And a lot of this is leaking across the Atlantic and in the UK, you can't necessarily polarise it in the same way. There's a lot of middle class, often white women from good backgrounds who are not far right. They're probably centre or even slightly left leaning, who are also having the same thing. So you can't simply blame right extremism anymore. It's becoming a pervasive noise around societal values, which is what worries me.

It's the undercurrent. And I don't think we have the same problem in the UK, in the US, from conversations of average people, is that a lot of the challenge that started at the government level becomes really activated in communities and in law enforcement. So you don't feel safe in the community, you don't feel safe with law enforcement. In the UK, the political climate is such that it's creating this negative rhetoric, it's creating these tropes, it's propagating the stereotypes, making people feel unsafe, but it's not being activated in communities in the same way where I feel unsafe walking down the street, I don't feel under threat in the supermarket. I know some people who are queer, have suffered violence, et cetera, et cetera, but my lived experience is it's a fairly safe environment, day to day. Whereas I get the impression the US, in certain areas of the country, you are more likely to experience violence and hurt and overt discrimination than maybe we do in the UK. Is that relatable or have I misunderstood that?

Well, I would say your perspective is interesting because when I talk to my friends in the UK, I get a different perspective. I get a perspective that depending on where you are, it can feel feel you can't feel marginalised. Of course, that level of safety is going to be different. It doesn't necessarily mean people are going to attack you, but you could feel frozen out. You can feel that people challenge your right to be in the mean. We certainly are seeing that on a number of different levels. Around immigration, around anti Muslim rhetoric. So here in the US, I think all of our countries are made up of other little countries and everybody's reality can be different from one place to the next.

I mean, I can travel across San Francisco and have a completely different reality, 3 miles or three kilometres, I should say, from where I am, than I do where I'm sitting right now. Same in New York, same in the States. And so I think what's important to realise is our sense of peace and safety has to constantly be negotiated. And I would say also reminding ourselves that what we have so easily fought for, what we so easily take for granted, can be taken away very quickly. I think that's the thing that I would ask us to be thinking about. And in the US, I think a lot of what's happening is, compared to the UK and compared to what's happening in other places, the US is fighting for its soul. The US is fighting very much for who are we going to be? Are we going to be what we've been in the past? We're going to be something different. And I think for a number of people so this goes back to what you were saying before.

People are afraid of anything that's different, especially if they've been invested in a system that, albeit imperfect, has given them certain rewards and benefits. And that unknown factor makes people scared. So if you have a country, as we have, where we had a black president for two terms, we have an increasing Latino population, we have gay people, queer people getting married, and our national identity and our national narrative is being challenged and questioned, that scares people and that is not a religious argument. And you're seeing the same thing happen in places like France, where, for example, there's the secularism. It's not a religious argument that families should operate, know a man and a woman at the head of them. It's this whole traditional idea of this is how French culture is supposed to be. It's not necessarily a religious argument as much as it is a traditional republic type of argument, that we have existed this way and how dare anybody tell us that we should be different?

Yeah.

So I think in the US there is a strong element of that that's the same. And I think there is the religious argument that fuels a lot of that, or the religious and I wouldn't call them all religion, but some of these right wing Christian beliefs. But I would also say there is a sense of Americanism that's also behind this. That for us to be good and great and mighty, we have to maintain this. And giving LGBTQ people privilege, rights and opportunity is going to further erode the America that we know. And therefore we're going to become a socialist republic, even though many Americans don't even know what it means to be socialist, and though many Americans don't realise that a lot of the programmes that we benefit from are indeed very much socialism, but there's this fear that we're becoming something different. And if you've been entrenched or you've had privilege and power, that is scary. And so queer rights is just part of that larger trend of the country being different and that being intolerable more insufferable to people who are scared of any type of change.

As you challenge the paradox of tolerance, you've got to be intolerant of intolerance. It's a really nuanced thing. And people often when we talk about inclusion, belonging, what we both talk about the need to be inclusive. Naturally, people believe you've got to hear all views, you got to balance arguments. At some point, you've got to say that your views go beyond the bounds of what's right and proper in a decent society. So how do you balance this intolerance of intolerance whilst creating cohesive, inclusive conversations?

I focus on equity because you're right, there is a point where people will say, why aren't you supposed to be tolerant of all views? And I said, Well, I can tolerate them to an extent, but any actions and voices that are there to rob someone of their humanity, then no. I don't necessarily want to support and elevate and give credence to equity, I think helps to refocus the conversation. How can we make sure that everybody's taken care of while recognising the different systems of historic, systems of oppression that have kept some people at the margins? That's what I focus on. And so I will be the first one to tell you I'm not very tolerant of anything or anyone who will debase someone's humanity because they're LGBTQ. I'm not tolerant of someone's belief that they debase someone because they're a person of colour or they're a woman or they're disabled or they're an immigrant or they are working class. However you want to say it. Do I give you honour your right to say that? Yes. Do I honour your right to think that? Yes.

However, as a society I think that's where we have to focus on equity and realise that while people can say and think anything that we want, this goes back to what we talked about at the beginning values. Our value as a society is that we have said that we want to make sure that people, regardless of who they are and in celebration of who they are, they can be their best selves as long as they're law abiding citizens. And I know that whole law abiding could be charged as well. But as long as they are wanting to contribute to society in a meaningful, positive way, that we're here to support them and we're here to make sure that people can do so to the best of their ability in their own authentic way. That's where I come from with it. So I think tolerance has different levels and degrees and I think we have to be careful in our society of creating these false equivalencies of because I'm sure you've seen it, there'll be something where, let's say there's a protest and someone will say, okay, let's hear from, let's say, the queer person. And then they'll say, well let's get the anti LGBTQ person's perspective as though that's balanced. And I'm like, well, that's not really balanced.

And why are we basically giving platforms to people to behave if they think that you can't stop someone from thinking and saying those sorts of things? But what I think we have to do, just like we wouldn't necessarily give credence to someone who injures someone or physically attacks someone, we have to also recognise that we're creating the same type of dynamic. When we say to someone, it's okay for you to we're going to treat your opinion as though it has validity and reason and logic when the fact it doesn't. So I think if we're going to talk about those things, I think the way we frame them is different and so we don't want to tell somebody that they can't voice it, but just say this is just not a reasoned position or opinion. And based on the values that we share as a modern day a society, these are the things that we hold dear and this runs counter to that. And these are just not values that we want to uphold and these are not values that we want to celebrate or honour, and I think that's the way that we do that. So there are some people who I think disagree and there are a lot of interculturalists out there who will just say it's just a difference of opinion when people have these different views. But I think from a human standpoint and from a power and privilege standpoint, when you do that and you treat these opinions as being neutral, you ignore the histories of our world notice I said histories. And you ignore the ways in which people have been oppressed and people have been harmed.

And I think in our society today, in 2023, that is just not acceptable.

Fantastic. I think on that note, we'll leave our listeners to ponder on those thoughts and I think we've achieved the objective of uplifting queer genius in this episode. So thank you. Joel, do you want to just tell our listeners how to get in contact with you about any programmes or books you have or anything else out there?

Sure. I appreciate that. So. My book, The Souls of Queer Folk how Understanding LGBTQ Cultural Values Can Transform Your Leadership. Practise is a bestseller on Amazon and is doing very well. Just won an award. So, please, if you would like to learn more about my book, please search it out. You can also find me@joeldavisbrown.com you can find me on Instagram at joelabround and you can also find me on LinkedIn.

And I encourage my friends from all around the world to reach out. We do best as a people and as a society when we support and honour each other. And I'm always looking just to meet people from around the world who are on the same journey and have the same mindset. So that's how you can find me and reach me. And it's been a pleasure. So thank you for the time and the opportunity to be with you today.

Thank you, John. I'm going to dive onto Amazon in a minute and see if I can pick up a copy of Souls of the Queer Folk. How understanding LGBTQ plus culture values can transform your leadership franchise. I'm going to look that up and I strongly recommend listeners out there do the same. So, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today. It's been an amazing conversation.

Thank you.

Thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in, listening to the end. I really appreciate that. Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Please tell your friends, tell your colleagues, please share this episode far and wide. Thank you. I have a number of other exciting guests lined up over the next few weeks and months that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by, so please continue to tune in. And, of course, if you'd like to be a guest, please let.

Me know. I'd welcome feedback, suggestions, offer future shows how we can improve. Just email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.