Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is Episode 80 with the title Beyond The Barriers, and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Belinda Riley. Belinda describes herself as a diversity and inclusion consultant and also clinical hypnotherapist. When I asked Belinda to describe her superpower, she said that she truly cares and wants to get it right, not just feel like she's right, whilst also recognising her own privileges and using those to help others. Hello, Belinda, welcome to the show.

Hello, Joanne. Thank you very much for having me. It's lovely to see you again.

Yes, it's great to catch up. Belinda, tell me we're speaking in the green room, just full, went live, and we talk about beyond the barriers. What does that mean to you?

So, beyond the barriers for me, means a number of different things. And in my work, I also do a number of different things. But in essence, it's about going beyond the barriers of either limiting beliefs that people have that hold them back from really achieving their potential or thriving in all areas of their life. But it's also, in my consultancy work, it's around going beyond the barriers of inequality to make workplaces work for everyone.

So, limiting beliefs? Yeah. I think when we first met, probably about four or five years ago, I was probably going through a stage of my life where this sense of imposter syndrome, these limiting beliefs, these things hold you back, this little voice in your ear that says you can't, you can't, you can't. Many people suffer from that, don't they?

Oh, absolutely. And I'm fascinated, actually, about how impostor syndrome shows up for people. And I've done a lot of work in this area and there's lots of research in this space, and I think the research says that kind of 70% of women experience impostor syndrome, 40% of men. In my work, what I've kind of come across is realising that most people experience some form of impostor syndrome or have some kind of impostor feelings. That does hold them back. And often impostor syndrome can show up in loads of different ways of that idea of not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy enough, feeling like that you don't belong or that you're a fraud and someone's going to find out that you don't really know as much as what you say that aligns with what you're doing. But for me, more importantly, when I've looked closely into impostor syndrome, is seeing how much is being left on the table, how many great ideas, how much innovation, how many opportunities, how many ideas are people not following through because of those impostor feelings and those limiting beliefs and those words that they tell themselves? And it's inspired me to really think more broadly around that and how do I build awareness and kind of empower people to overcome those impostor feelings so that they can go on and achieve and thrive and realise and fulfil their potential?

So you said just now that proportionally more women experienced it than men. I also believe that it's kind of people from marginalised, minority or unheard voices backgrounds tend to be more is that down to socialisation more than anything or is that just is it nurturing, basically?

Well, what I've kind of discovered in the work that I have done is that I believe that impostor syndrome is actually compounded by the systemic barriers or the systemic inequality that exists in the world, and in particular in the workplace. And I think often when people are talking about impostor syndrome, it's kind of saying that something's wrong with you as an individual for having these feelings, but often it's not explored within the context of the worlds of which we live and the worlds in which we work. And I think that that's why often, in my experience and what I see, these impostor feelings are compounded for women and other sort of marginalised or underrepresented groups. And I think there's a reason for that. And I've looked really closely because I think when I started looking at impostor syndrome, I remember when I moved from my career in the public sector into the private sector, I remember thinking, oh, my God, I'm not going to fit. They've employed the wrong person, I'm going to get there and they're going to go, thanks so much for coming, Belinda, but we've made the wrong decision because I thought, based on my ideas about the workplace, that I didn't really have a role. But what I realised quite quickly when I started this new job is that I wasn't the only person who was experiencing these impostor feelings or this impostor syndrome. And people who I was looking up to, who were and are absolutely phenomenal leaders of businesses, entrepreneurs, I had the privilege in my role of working with royalty, with Olympic champions, Paralympic champions, world champions, in athletes. And I couldn't believe that there was some similarity in around some of these impostor feelings. And it really triggered in me. Where do these feelings come from? Why do people think they're not good enough, even when you've kind of achieved what most people would only dream of achieving? And where does that come from? So I started kind of doing a little bit of inquiry and as you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, I'm also a hypnotherapist and really interested in how sort of the mind works and the rules of the mind and the power of the mind. And I also had the privilege of studying with a phenomenal woman called Marissa Pierre. I don't know if you've come across her before, but she's a phenomenal therapist. She coined rapid transformational therapy. And she was saying that in her kind of 35 years of being a hypnotherapist, a therapist, and she uses a number of different types of therapies is that she identified that there was kind of three limiting beliefs that there's no boundaries to this idea that you're not enough, that when you look up, what you want isn't available to you. Or this idea that you don't fit or you don't belong. And so when I was sort of re upskilling with her, I looked into that and was thinking about that in the context of the workplace and in the context of the work that I was doing around diversity, inclusion and inequality. And my role was really looking to advance minorities or marginalised groups into leadership roles. It really got me thinking about those three factors and how does that actually show up in the workplace. And what I realised is that when I was looking at, in particular women and other marginalised groups, we're constantly held to a kind of masculine standard around what is success. And we're often told that we need to work harder, that we need to do more to be successful. And there's often this ingrained belief in workplaces that we operate a meritocracy that if you work hard, you will progress at the same rate as your peers. But the reality is that's not true. But the systems are designed to support that process. But then when I looked a little bit deeper as well, when you look up, it's not available to me. Well, when you look into companies and you look in businesses and you look in who is in those seed in your leadership for, again, women and marginalised groups, there's not that many people that look like you or sound like you. And then often again, the same communities when they're walking into a room and they look around, there is, again, only few people that necessarily look like you. So when we come back to this idea of I don't belong, or I'm not enough, or I don't fit, that is kind of or I'm a fraud, or people are going to find out I don't belong, you can. Kind of see that those limiting beliefs that we have are compounded every day to reinforce this idea that what you're seeing is actually true because the world is telling you and reinforcing some of those thought processes.

Yeah, I love that you break the three down. And I always think that there's the old adage and you can't be what you can't see, and not fitting walking into a room, being the only one or seeing other people who are like you not succeeding as well as other people are. It creates that limiting belief. I agree completely. I think you're also right about this perception about you got to be superhuman sometimes. I can't show weakness, I can't show failure. And as a woman, we end up having to juggle multiple home tasks and work tasks and childcare tasks. Even in the most modern relationships, there's still that unbalanced burden, if you like, in many families. So trying to be super human to do everything or feeling like you're letting someone down if you can't do everything is a massive challenge as well, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we put ourselves sometimes under so much pressure that it kind of reinforces this idea of if I make a mistake or if I can't do everything that I said I'm going to do or that I fail at something, that there's something wrong with me, that I'm not good enough. And almost it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy around there's not enough feelings. And the words that we tell ourselves, and I think a lot of people don't realise this, is that the words we also tell ourselves are the most important words. And often we have such a strong inner critic, we're very good at internalising the negative. And I just wish that we were just as good at internalising the positives, our successes and the things that we do well. And I think that if we're able to do that, we could start to kind of overcome some of those limiting beliefs.

Yeah, you've probably heard of the phrase fake it till you make it. And sometimes it depends on how you say it and how you think about it because it can be a kind of a negative term. But I also think it's your definition of faking because impostor syndrome is almost telling you that everything you're good at is fake. So sometimes you've just got to keep on believing in yourself that that faking until you make it is not actually you're not actually being fake, you're just being really, really hard on yourself and you are good at what you can do.

Yeah, well, it's interesting that you bring that up. I think that in the work that I've been doing as a hypnotherapist and again, studying with Marissa Pierre is understanding how the mind works. And there's what's called these rules of the mind and this is where this idea of kind of faking it till you make it almost comes through. But let me give you kind of a new way of kind of reframing that, is that when we actually understand how our mind works, we can actually work with our mind rather than against it. Because the mind doesn't actually distinguish between what is real or what is fake, what is fact, what is fiction. It's actually just listening and responding to the words that you tell it. So the whole idea that you might not believe that you are talented at something, but if you tell yourself enough, then your mind will actually respond to the words that you're saying it. So our minds are designed to keep us safe, in essence. And this goes back and I know that you've had lots of conversations with previous sort of guests around this idea, but our mind is designed to take us away from kind of keep us safe. And that also means that it takes us away from things that are perceived pain towards what is perceived pleasure or safety. But when we know that we can work with our minds to tell it what we want it to be, so we can shift from I'm not good enough to I am enough, through that consistency and that repetition, our mind starts to respond and believes what we tell it. And so often people talk about this whole idea of affirmations and people go get a bit icky about sometimes affirmations, but in essence, affirmations are just the words that we tell ourselves all the time. And if we go back to what we were saying before, so often the words that we tell ourselves are very negative. I'm not good at that. No, I can't do that or I'm failing or that, or people are going to laugh at me or judge me if I do those things and they literally hold ourselves back. But if we start to tell ourselves a different narrative because everything actually begins with a thought and we've got the power to control our thoughts and change out and change our thoughts and our thoughts, everything starts with a thought that creates a feeling and then that feeling kind of creates a behaviour or an action that then kind of creates certain thoughts again. So coming back to that idea that you've got to fake it till you make it, actually, if you tell your mind something enough, it will start to believe it and then your behaviours start to align with that belief system.

Yeah, I agree. I look back at my own journey of the last six years and some of the early stages of that imposter syndrome limiting police really impacted me. One thing I identified was that I didn't have any benchmark just to know how I was doing. I didn't have any positive reinforcement. I worked alone, like many of us do with freelance or independent. So you haven't got colleagues around you saying you can compare notes or even when they say, wow, you're doing amazing, you go my reaction was now I down talk that almost embarrassed to be celebrated success. And I eventually overcame it by realising that I was benchmarking against myself. And the incremental change was almost untied with a continuum that very micro changes. I was improving and I had to start looking further back. So I had to start looking a month ago or two months ago. And that's where I started realising that I was improving.

Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that is that sometimes we forget where we started and where we've come, and often when we start to change and develop and grow, sometimes that can feel very incremental. And as you said, unless we're kind of clear of where we started, and so often we don't, and often we fail to stop and celebrate our successes, our wins, some of the, you know, whether they're big wins or small wins, and actually seeing the progress. And often our limiting beliefs are based on experiences that we had years and years and years and years ago and aren't actually relevant or aligned to where we are now. So the fact that you're able to see that, I think is phenomenal. And I think sometimes we do just need to cheque in with what is it that we've done? Look back and see how far we've come, celebrate that, but also get clear about where we want to go. What does success look like to us, and then what is the action we need to be taking to achieve that?

Someone said to me that it's a very British thing to be self deprecating or not taking credit for what we can do. Is it just a British thing or is it a world over trait? This is imposter syndrome.

That's a very good question. I was having this exact same conversation with a German friend of mine only a few days ago. And I think that in my experience and I've had the privilege of working with people across cultures around the world. I think the term impostor syndrome is one thing, but I think what's sort of equivalent to the impostor feelings I think are fairly universal. I think it's just about how you describe it. So, yes, I think the British do regularly say, and I'm an Australian, and I was trying to think about are we self deprecating in the same way that British people are? But I've been in Britain for so long, for 20 years, I can't quite distinguish what's different. But no, I do think that it's different interpretations of how you would describe impostor syndrome. But I do feel that when we're looking at kind of more broadly limiting beliefs, I feel that most people have them. And often those limiting beliefs stem all the way back into childhood. And it's about our interpretation. So you and I could have experienced very similar things or different things, but our limiting beliefs come from our interpretation of those events. And then every time we're in a situation where those feelings are triggered again, it kind of compounds those feelings of not being enough or those compounding those feelings of impostor syndrome.

You said at the beginning, I introduced you as a diversity inclusion consultant. And one of the things that I always find when I speak to people, one of the biggest challenges they have is overcoming this fear of getting it wrong. Everyone's worried about upsetting somebody to the point where they'd rather disengage than engage. So how do you get people comfortable having uncomfortable conversations, or feeling uncomfortable, if you like, around these kind of conversations out of their depth whilst giving them a safe space?

Yeah, well, first and foremost, I think it's realising that you're not alone. Most people are more worried about themselves than they are worried about the other person and what you think about them. And I think there's something quite freeing in that. Again, only the other day I was talking to an old colleague and they're like, oh, my God, I said that. And I was like, My goodness, nobody would have even noticed that. But what you felt, where you'd made a stumble or you'd done something wrong, that you really noticed. Nobody else even noticed that. So I think also we're very, very harsh on ourselves and I think sometimes we've just got to kind of let some of that go. I think that also we have to get comfortable being uncomfortable and creating space and kind of almost that psychological safety for people to be able to talk about issues and talk about different experiences, because otherwise, if we're not out there learning and building awareness and breaking down some of these barriers, nothing ever changes. And I regularly and I do a lot of work with leaders and a lot of leaders feel and say to me, but what happens if I say the wrong thing? And it's like, but, yeah, you might say the wrong thing, but also, what is your intention? Actually? You often are speaking louder by not saying anything at all. And I know in talking to lots of people, the fact that people are willing to have that conversation and open to learning and opening to making a mistake is far more engaging than feeling like you're not being seen heard or even being given the opportunity to have a voice.

Yeah, we do see countless examples, though, in the media where someone's made a slip up and they get berated for the recent example of the lady waiting to our former queen or our deceased queen having a conversation to a charity, a black person who's a charity worker, and how that conversation went around where you're from. So people see that and they either go, oh, that makes me really nervous, or the opposite reaction is they get kind of defensive about this political correctness and wokeness in society and you can't say anything these days without someone jumping on you. How do we kind of have those conversations where we're helping people through that?

Yeah, I think the social media has made life quite challenging for people, but also, I think in that example, there was a real lack of awareness. And I think that when people do make mistakes and what was said wasn't appropriate, and I think that they weren't being aware of the impact of that constant questioning about, but no, where are you really from? Where are you really from? And the impact that that has. I think that for me, we have a responsibility to educate ourselves and to learn and to use those kind of moments around how do we actually reflect and what is the impact that that has on other people's lived experiences? And I think that for me, where I see a real issue is when people aren't open to that learning. We talked at the beginning about privilege and it is about recognising that we have got certain privileges, but also it's around there's a great quote that I often use in my work and I better make sure I get it right. It's a Stephen Covey quote, is that we see the world not as it is, but as we are. And I think that for me, that's really important, that we start from a place of acknowledging that and then being open to learning to make sure that we do continue to evolve. I think it's difficult, though, I think, because a lot of people are persecuted for saying the wrong thing. But I also think that sometimes it's about the intent and it's also recognising the barriers that certain people do face every day. And that was a classic example of that, of not recognising and not being aware of and not, I suppose, almost reinforcing an issue.

Yeah, I agree that most most people are, by definition, good at heart. Most people want to do well in the world, they wake up with positive intent. But as as you as we just discussed, the intent doesn't always cover the impact. We have negative impact and we slip up. How do we recover that if we realise we've created a negative impact or a problematic impact?

Yeah, well, I think it's also about acknowledging it. It's not denying that it happened. I think that we have to get comfortable owning our mistakes and acknowledging it. So acknowledging the mistake, apologising for it, learning from it, but also then we need to be able to move on. And I think that often we don't do that. And I see that and I think actually one of the biggest barriers to the work that I know that both you and I are very passionate around advancing equality in the workplace is the denial of the inequality that exists and people not taking responsibility for making change. There is enough information out there for us to just because you haven't experienced something or you haven't seen it or it hasn't affected you, it certainly doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. And I think that for me, is one of our greatest privileges, is being able to use that privilege to break down some of those barriers and using your voice and using your power and influence to start driving change. I often see, especially through this lens of diversity, equity, inclusion, is that we're asking minority groups to fix the problem. It is not their job to fix the problem of inequality. So again, it comes back to, for me, that education piece, but we also need to ensure that we're able to acknowledge when we have made a mistake and what we're actually going to do about that.

Yeah, that's so true. Black people can't fix racism, no women can't fix sexism, et cetera, et cetera. But what we often find is in our dei space when we're having these conversations, becomes an echo chamber, becomes an echo chamber of just within that community. So black people talk about the challenges or black brown people of colour talk about the challenges they face, but white people aren't listening. So how do we get everybody in the room through allyship? But how do we persuade people who are not part of those minority groups to engage and learn more about the challenges, the injustices, as you said?

Well, I think that there's a number of things. I mean, for me it is around understanding, creating space and opportunities to build awareness and understanding. There is so much information out there and it's about how do people connect on a personal level. I think, as I said before, people have a responsibility to educate themselves and to take action and for people to be aware of how they can leverage their power. Well, first of all, that they have got power and influence. I think that there's also an opportunity in terms of ensuring that we're listening to people's lived experiences and creating that space to listen to people's lived experiences. And I think coming back to that privilege is it's not always somebody's fault, but it is about recognising that it exists. And I think I mentioned before, one of the biggest barriers is the denial that inequality exists in the first place. So how do we ensure and I think that what I've seen is that everybody connects in different ways. So how do you create those AHA moments for people that they can connect with? I think that what I've often seen is that sometimes the messaging around diversity and equity and inclusion creates a zero sum game. Like to advance inequality means that other people need to miss out. And that's a real misconception. Everybody stands to gain. And I think for companies in particular, there is so much out there that shows that the companies who get this right are at a competitive advantage. So sometimes it's about how do we ensure that people understand this in the right way around what some of the benefits are. I often say there's no business case for the status quo, but I always say, well, tell me the business case. And I do find that a little bit frustrating, but actually there's enough information out there that demonstrates the business case as well as the human case. But recognising again, that everybody stands to gain from getting this right. But I'd love to hear from you, how are you experiencing this? Because it is a challenge.

It is. And I have my own marginalised characteristic. And as a trans woman, like most people recorded this in February 2023, there's a lot of anti trans rhetoric caused through the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill, talking about transgender prisoners who have been convicted of rape. There's a whole load of rhetoric around. Think about the women and children with damaging access and all this focus on trans women. So it is I'm well aware of the noise and this pervasive kind of drone in the air that I and other trans people feel. And it affects we talked, to use the word earlier, psychological safety. It means I'm constantly on a state of awareness and stress and anxiety in certain situations. And it's really hard to I think, as you said, you talk about the zero sum game. I'm not trying to steal anybody's space, I'm not trying to take anything away from anybody. All I'm saying is, can I exist in the world? And you're not losing. There's nothing to lose here. If there are bad people, there are bad people. There are bad people in all books of life. And just because you're transgender doesn't mean say you're a bad person. So the effect is we dehumanise. And once you dehumanise, it gives society permission to treat you any way it likes for their impunity. I think what's happening is the moment we see it through time. I was speaking to a lady yesterday around the dehumanisation of Arabs and Muslims. We saw around the dehumanisation of the Japanese people in America after Pearl Harbour, we saw in the Second World War and the Nazis around people who are Jewish. So we see these dehumanising words and we're seeing now the worrying thing is we see the rise of the incel movement, the Andrew Tate, the toxic masculinity dehumanising women as such as becoming property. So I think as much as we're pushing forward, we're having to hold our own at some point, because otherwise, if we don't hold, we're sliding backwards in some of these areas.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think at the heart of all of this, it is about being human. And I think there is a real reminder. And whilst I think when we look at what people experience, and as you've just explained, I don't think there's anybody in the world who has not felt at some point in their life what it feels like to be excluded or to be rejected. Just some people only have to experience this occasionally and often when I go into companies to work with them, to really kind of help people connect with what we're trying to do, and the goal is helping people to connect with that. What does it feel like, closure? Sometimes do these visualisation exercise, just close your eyes for a minute and imagine what does it like walking in and the only person you open up your eyes and you're the only person that looks. Like you in the room. Remember that time when you weren't picked at school to go to a party, or you weren't invited to a party, or that you weren't chosen to be on a sports team, being rejected from a date. You ask somebody out and they say no. All of these feelings are kind of universal, those feelings of not fitting in. And it comes back to what I was saying before, not feeling worthy, not feeling enough. And then for me, when people can connect with that, imagine feeling like that every day, that every day you step out of your house. And as women, we have different thought processes to men because of safety every day. And I have these conversations regularly. Do you even think about what it feels like to have to think right? Am I going to be coming home late tonight when it's dark? Am I safe to do that? Can I get transport? How am I going to get home? Does anybody even know where I am, for example? And I know that that happens for women and for black boys in particular as well, out in the community, because of these stereotypes. But when people can actually connect, I think sometimes to some of those human behaviours and make a connection, then that for me, sometimes is a trigger to get thinking, people thinking in a different way.

It was certainly something I had not foreseen when I transitioned six, seven years ago. As we grow up, we learn these social constructs, we learn our behaviour model, we learn all these things. And what I hadn't appreciated was the need to unlearn, to allow me to relearn. And I experienced some safety issues that completely came from left field. I had no idea this was going to happen. I was so unprepared. Fortunately, nothing terrible happened, but it was like a real jolt. I can't do this anymore without thinking, I have to plan this, I have to be aware of this. I need to cheque that someone is watching me in case this goes wrong. I'm not alone here. I've got support if I need it in a bar or wherever that may be. And it was a really scary enlightening, but also a wake up call around my own set of privileges that I had that I hadn't even thought about. And now I erased those privileges and I had this new feeling, a number of stories. I was at a dinner a couple of weeks ago with two other women. We're sitting there having a conversation. They both looked their watch at some point went, we better be going home soon. I don't want to get that last tube, I don't want to get that last train. I want to make sure I go now. I don't have to get my keys out and hold them between my fingers. I thought, this isn't conversations, this is normal conversations that women have around the table at that time. Of night that, again, I was suddenly going, you're right. Yes, you're right, I'm still trading off that old privilege.

Yeah. And often people don't necessarily lose. Well, what's the impact of that? What is the emotional load with coming with having to think about elements of your identity each and every day? We talk a lot, don't we, around health, well being, mental health, these thoughts, as you've just described as well, that can have quite a profound impact on people. And you think about your kind of working memory. If a percentage of your time and energy is thinking about this, what is the impact that that has in other areas of your life? And we connect that to the workplace. How does that impact productivity in the workplace if people are already having to think about all of those things before they even start the day? So, again, coming back to companies and businesses need to think about that because there's so much again being left on the table, because people are worrying about things that because they can't be their authentic selves, because that's not what fits or what belonging. And again, there's something that everybody can gain by creating a place where people can turn up and be themselves, that there's modifications to create the right environment for people to thrive. Now, that's for me around, there's a great image, and I'm sure you've seen it before, that describes equality versus equity, where you see people on bikes. We shouldn't be treating everybody the same because that's not recognising or understanding some of the barriers or modifications that people need to be able to get on the right size bike so that they can get to the finish line.

Yeah, I think it was JFK. Rising water floats all boats evenly. Don't we have to recognise this? We need to add enough water so that we are floating everybody, but it starts at the lowest boats first and then raises to the highest boats. That's recognising that people need this equity, we need to invest in. People understand that the barriers, the additional challenges of being them. And I think you're right when you're talking about this extra load, cognitive load, my background in it, I used to be a programmer many, many years ago, and I always think about these little things or little subroutines in my head. So am I safe? Am I going to be disrespectful? Is someone going to misgender me? Is this going to happen? So all these little things are firing off before I can actually do any next the proper thinking, yeah, I've almost got this extra burden every time I'm going, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Yeah, good, but carry on. And that could be limiting beliefs, it could be all this other stuff in there, all part of this load that I and others have to consider through lack of privilege or whatever it may be that others may not have to. Maybe they have their own subroutines their own challenges. But, yeah, it's definitely I feel that cognitive load there now.

Yeah. And that's really powerful. And I think there's also things that we can do to take some of that away for people. What can we do? We shouldn't be adding to that by constantly having to either fix the problem or fixing different things within workplaces. I think that those in positions of power and influence don't, I think, realise that they can do things differently to alleviate some of that emotional load or even just recognising that that's what people experience every day in certain areas.

And being the only one in a room should not be underestimated how what a load that is. Because in one respect, you're representing everybody who's like you. The conversations are harder, you're looking out for microaggressions or discriminatory comments or those challenges, and you're worried about your personal safety, you're worried about a whole load of factors going on, psychological safety. And I think a lot of workplaces are set up, so there are many places where you are the only one said if you're a young black woman trying to succeed and go into leadership roles, there are many role models in there. So what can organisations do around coaching and mentoring and support programmes? Equity, we talked about. Isn't it about equity?

Yeah, I mean, something that I'm really passionate about and have been doing a lot of work and have been seeing quite phenomenal impact is sponsorship programmes. And the reason why I think sponsorship is probably one of the most influential factors in kind of advancing inequality or advancing equality in the workplace is it shifts the responsibility around who's kind of accountable for change. Traditionally, and I think this is done with really great intention, we have all of these programmes that focus on the minority, whether that's women, whether it's ethnic minorities, et cetera, et cetera. But I think unintentionally it's also the message is we're trying to fix people to fit into an environment where they don't fit. But actually, if we shift that towards, well, actually, what can we do to actually enable? Because people don't need fixing, they just need the right environment for them to thrive and that might be different to what certain people need. But when we talk about people who are individuals and looking at what people individually need, then we're going to have far greater success. And what we've discovered, or what I've discovered through sort of different parts of work that I've done, is that often people have access to sponsorship informally by those who are in the majority. We all have affinity bias, every single one of us. We have very much human behaviour and in essence, affinity bias is that we like to surround ourselves with people that are similar to us or that we can connect on. And I think that dates right back to tribal times, that if you're a part of a tribe, you're part of a community, you were safer, and if you stepped outside of that, you were at risk. The thing is, we're not back there, we're not in the same place anymore. But also that kind of idea of being around people who are like us does make us feel broadly safer. And as a result of that, and as a result of people who are in the majority, those who are like that get access to whether that be networks, whether that's opportunities, whether that's information, and that creates huge amounts of advantages and opportunities for those. So when we're looking at kind of formal sponsorship programmes, when you can help, especially leaders in business, understand the barriers that people face and how that is compounded when you apply intersectional lenses and once they recognise that but they can actually do something to support those people by giving them access to influential networks, information, opening doors, creating visibility it can lead to huge differences for those people. But for me, that's around really active, visible and accountable sponsorship. Now, what I've also seen is a lot of people think that they're sponsoring others, but they're not, they're mentoring them. And the difference for me is sponsorship is about how you use your influence for others. Mentoring is about sharing information, but it's really about what you do when somebody's not in the room. So if people are really looking at ways to advance sort of representation or diversity in workplaces, my top tip often is around, look at your sponsorship programmes, look at formal sponsorship programmes, let's look at the systems, let's break down those barriers that exist, let's challenge this belief of meritocracy and let's really make a difference.

Yeah, the myth of meritocracy is is still powerful, isn't it? I've I've I've been in a room full of recruiters and and they all pipe up, yes, but the best person gets the jo, and I say, using whose criteria? And it's about who designs the criteria, designs the meritocracy. And the criteria is designed often with bias own lens, own lens stuff. You're looking at yourself or I've got a Trevor and I want another Trevor. That's what we're saying, isn't it? And that's often how the meritocracy is designed, someone just like that.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, I leveraged this term called meritocracy that I came across, because actually, I think that what most companies do, again, unintentionally and unconsciously, is that they kind of employ, promote, develop people who look and sound like those who are currently in positions of power. And this term, meritocracy, was originally coined in Silicon Valley with a recognition that those in the tech industry, they weren't being employed based on their merit, they weren't being employed based on their skills, they were being employed based on who looked like those that were already there. And what that meant. And the bigger impact is that they were missing out on the skills that actually were going to help them and enable the businesses and I see that play out again and again in businesses at the moment. And the other question I often challenge people is, well, why would someone want to come and work in your organisation? And I think that if you can answer that question, that's what's going to attract people in. Do you actually value the uniqueness that individuals bring? Do you create the space for people to have a voice? Because I often say, oh yeah, we really value diversity, it's really important to us. Well, show me, what does that actually look like for you? Why would a trans woman want to come and work in your business? Are they going to be set up for success and what are you going to do to enable them to be successful? What does that actually look like? And for me, they're some of the tough conversations we really need to have because when you start asking those questions, I'm not sure that everybody always has an answer. And I think that going back to what we were talking about, about being unlearning and then having to relearn, is I think that there's a lot of that that needs to happen. But again, we need to create the space for people to be able to do that, to think about how do we value people who are different and how do we create the right environment.

For people to thrive when we're trying to diversify. Some air quotes when I said diversity, diversity that are we in danger of creating a stereotype around the person we're trying to hire. What I mean by that is often when we say why do we want to hire more women? And often we'll say we need more empathy, we need more compassion, we need more soft skills into our teams, that's making the quantum assumption that women have those skills more than other people. And that's creating a stereotype that women are naturally more emotional and compassionate and that's saying that men can't be so we're almost creating a reverse bias there to justify why we should hire more fairly. And I think sometimes we get sucked up into these other stereotypes and unfairly hiring women just because they're emotional and compassionate and have high EQ, supposedly.

Well, actually, I think there is some research that supports some of those statements. But I think more importantly is I think that it's redefining what are the skills that we actually need? And I think that and not putting people into these gendered stereotypes, but I think that because people men can be very emotionally intelligent and can have empathy and there's women that don't have empathy so it shouldn't necessarily keep putting people into boxes. It's about what are the skills that we need? What does a leader look like in our business and who are the best people then to deliver on that? And it goes back to your point is are we even clear around what are the skills and capabilities that we actually want and need for a business to thrive. And I think that that has changed and I think that there's a recognition that there's certain skills that we need more of in the future world of work than before. And I think that that is constantly evolving and changing as well. But I think that it shouldn't necessarily just be defined about a woman brings this or a man brings this, or somebody from this community brings this. It's actually being clear on the skill, see? And then starting from there.

Yeah. And also building trust as well. I was talking to somebody the other day, and what we're talking about here is diversity isn't about Noah's Ark, it's not having two of everybody or one of this or some of that. And we've got to have this matrix of different personalities and identities. It's around the people who we have, trusting the people in leadership or the mission of the organisation to support them, recognise them, empower them, look after them, create their belonging, create their culture. So you may be the only one. I mean, I'm the only one often, but it doesn't worry me, provided I trust the environment I'm in to respect and look after me and not break me.

Yeah. And that comes back to that psychological safety, isn't it, is that if you go into an organisation and everyone looks and sounds the same, what you could determine from that is that they're not valuing difference. And it's not always about having to see a complete replica of yourself. But if there is people who are representative of different backgrounds, different whether it's socioeconomic background, different educational backgrounds, different ages, all those different elements, people who are neurodivergent if you've got people who are representative of difference, it shows that, well, my difference is more likely to be valued and accepted because there appears to be because of what I'm seeing. People are there because of their uniqueness and the diversity of what they bring, rather than, oh, there's four women, there's four of this and there's four of that. And I think that often people think that diversity or having certain diversity is fixing the problem of inequality. For me, diversity is an output of inclusion and belonging.

Yeah, I often talk about that, where people focus on these diversity initiatives, diversity, hiring, let's go out, hire more people. And I always say, no, hiring is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do. And it's about getting your culture right. If you get your culture right with your values and alignment, belonging occurs. If belonging occurs, inclusion occurs. If inclusion occurs, you will be more diverse because you're welcoming people. If you get the diversity right, you're going to be compliant because you won't get things. So it all starts with culture, starts with belonging, starts with those values.

Absolutely. And I think that, again, this is where some of the messaging has been misconstrued almost, is that, but I've done this, I've hired that and it didn't work. And what frustrates me sometimes about that is, oh, no, but we put women into leadership roles, but they weren't successful. And it's like, well, did you look at why did we actually set people up for success? Just putting someone into any role, you're not going to put a doctor all of a sudden become a lawyer and expect them to thrive because they thrive somewhere else. We have to really set people up for success. What support does somebody need to be successful in that role? And again, I think it comes back to the why. Why is this important? And understanding why this hasn't been successful in the past. And I think it's unpacking that. And I think that, again, it comes back to, do we understand the different lived experiences of people? And just because something worked for you, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to work for others.

It's this concept of the concrete cliff, isn't it, where it's really hard to break through the glass ceiling, but what happens is you get there and you realise you don't like it. You jump off the concrete cliff because it's so toxic, you don't want to be there anymore. So it really is making sure that you are, as you say, providing that support, that nurturing, recognising the equity that needs to be pumped into this circumstance. And, yeah, people might say, well, we don't need to do that with men, they just get on with it. But that's not necessarily a fair representation, because maybe these men have been nurtured already and they don't necessarily have all the skills. So maybe instead of focusing on these man attributes, we look at adaptability, learning, creation, all these other things we talk about in the future. Recognising the world of work in ten years time is completely different to the world of work today. If you look at what's happening with AI Chat GPT at the moment, the world's going crazy around AI image generation, everyone's already talking about this. AI taking over the world. And so if we're now generating content and products using AI, where do all these other roles go? So it's in the same paradigm shift as Deliverer, as Uber, as Facebook, as all these social media stuff. We didn't have that ten years ago, now we have. So we look at for ten years, the world of work is going to be phenomenally different this today, and we need to hire people who are ready for that change.

Yeah, and I love that quote, what got us here isn't what's going to get us there. And for me, that's about we have to keep evolving and responding, and the world is changing, as you said it's so rapidly. If we look back what's happened in the last four to five years, probably the last time you and I were in person together, how much has changed that we didn't foresee. And I think that, again, this is about how can we be agile, how can we be flexible, how do we adapt to these changes? And I always try and look for some of the positives. And I mean, COVID was pretty horrendous for most people. And again, I think there was some good things from that and there was some things that we really struggled with. And I know for me, not being able to see my family back in Australia was really difficult. But when I come back to thinking about COVID within the context of working, of the working world, it busted. So many myths about the way we used to work that I think kind of reinforced and prevented us from really shifting the dial when it came to an inclusion and belonging perspective. Because I used to always get told, oh, Belinda, people have to be in the office, people have to be on client sites. Well, actually in the firm I used to work with, we managed to mobilise over 300,000 people within a week. And technology has enabled that to happen and still able to deliver solutions for clients, still able to team, to still be able to collaborate and still be able to be successful. So it's always about for me, how do we reimagine, what else can we do? What can we learn to keep moving forward? And I think there's some huge opportunities that came out of that and I don't think we've quite landed on what that looks like going forward. And I know lots of people and companies are struggling with that. But I think it also opened up a huge talent pool because there was a lot of people who weren't able to participate within the workforce because of that needing to be present. Whether or not that was around getting into the cities, how expensive that is with people with caring responsibilities, people with disabilities or a number of different reasons that may have prevented people, that has now opened up. And I think for a lot of companies, the biggest challenges that they have at the moment is winning the war on talent. Or there's a lot of great talent out there. How do we think differently so that you're the one that gets access to.

That talent, and talent is more empowered, more enlightened. Talent knows different now. Talent knows it can work from home. And I often wonder what motivation is driving some of big businesses. I know the government are worried about the rail infrastructure, the underground infrastructure, not having enough people to keep it viable. We've got dead in the cities, coffee bars, cafes, all these economies closing down. So there's an immense pressure to get people back to the office just for the economies in the area without necessarily thinking about the benefit to people. And I think when I hear people talking about big global leaders talking about we need to get people back in the office because it means the creativity, mentoring, learning of each other, coffee machine, water cooler, chat. And I think, okay, I get that there is some power and some benefit of have face to face contact. I value it as well. But for me, when the answer to every question is back in the office, that's where it falls over. The answer to every question is, what can we do in this particular case? And I think we need to recognise that Back in the office is not the only answer or the default answer to everything. So it's about being more innovative. Local hubs, work clubs, that kind of stuff, in local businesses.

Yeah, I used to always laugh that often we're in the office and everybody's at their computer with their headphones on, so you can kind of do that from anywhere. So I think it's just about being creative and imaginative around how do we use certain spaces and do you come in for those collaborative days or those days for teaming? And then do you have those meetings structured in a different way? I mean, to be honest, I don't have all the answers, but I do think there's an opportunity to really think through different things. That creates more opportunity for more people to participate. And when we look at generations, and I think this is the first time in history, isn't it, that we have five generations in the workforce at one time, all with differing needs, all with differing expectations. And so how do we manage some of that? But if we don't, we are also missing, and again, comes back, right back to what I was saying at the beginning, is about how much is left on the table by not creating the right environment for people, people to thrive. And when we look at the new generations coming through, they're very clear that they will not work in an organisation or a company that does not value them for who they are. And they're demanding. I think the latest research is 80% of this community want inclusion and if they get somewhere and people aren't delivering on their promises, they're off, they're not going to stay. And that's a hugely expensive exercise for companies. So there's a real opportunity for people to get this right that benefits everybody.

Fantastic. That's an awesome place that we can close this down and draw a line there. That was immensely inspiring, that last word you said there, belinda, it's been an absolute pleasure. So how can our audience get in touch with you? What's the best way to connect?

So the best way probably to connect with me is either through LinkedIn is a great way, and often people connect with me there, either via email, so that's Belinda@belindariley.com people can find me there. I'm also on Instagram, which is at Belinda Riley, and I'm just in the process of designing and developing a new app. So when that comes out, it's going to be called beyond the barriers. So that's a nice little connection to our conversation. So I think you just type that into the App Store at some point soon and you can find me there as well.

Fantastic. Thank you once again. Thank you. Thank you to all the listeners. Thank you for listening this far. Tuning in. Please do subscribe. You'll be notified of future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E. If you haven't already shared it with your friends and colleagues, then please do. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months. Of course, if you'd like to be a guest yourself, please let me know. Just drop me an email.