The IAB has made version 2.3 of the Podcast Metrics Guidelines available for public comment. This is a document that has contributors from over 80 different companies in the podcast ecosystem. It is the most open and widely contributed document that is there to help the podcasting space.

For those of you that don't know about the IAB Tech Lab Podcast Technical Measurement Guidelines, because that's what we're talking about here. Here's a quickie overview. So the IAB Podcast Technical Measurement Guidelines is the official global rulebook designed to make sure everyone in the podcast industry counts listeners and ad plays the exact same way. And it's created by a collaborative group of a lot of tech and media companies, as Rob mentioned. And this document helps platforms and advertisers measure audio and video downloads accurately because podcasts are usually downloaded directly to a device rather than played over a consistent internet connection, like, you know, like a YouTube video, counting real listeners is a unique technical challenge. And this guide solves that by providing a standard to filter out automated bots and duplicate downloads, like when the Apple Watch situation happened a little while ago, and accidental preloads so that the audience numbers creators report are completely real and verified. For a creator, these guidelines are vital because they build trust and fairness in the industry, which is what allows podcasts to make money and grow. And so with podcast ad revenues expected to grow past $4 billion, advertisers need to know their money is reaching real, loyal, and engaged people rather than fake web traffic.

And so by setting clear universal rules for what counts as a download or an ad delivered, The IAB ensures that everyone from, you know, a bedroom podcaster like me to a massive network plays by the same honest rules so creators can be fairly rewarded for their work.

And remember, there is no compatible or compliant with IAB rules. You are either certified or you're not. So if a company isn't certified, in the document it says you can't say you're compliant to the rules. You have to be certified. That's the only way to be compliant. So version 2.3 of this document is open right now until August 19th for public comments. Here's a quick view of what was updated in version 2.3. Uh, 1, clarified the document covers video when distributed via open RSS feeds or podcast applications that rely on server-side file delivery.

2, Replace the term listener with podcast consumer to describe both listeners of audio and viewers of video of podcasts. And I know a couple of people have already had comments about this. We're not saying the podcast was consumed. We're saying it's a podcast consumer where the file was delivered to. In the past, we never said the listener had listened. We said the listener is a person that the file had been delivered to. Third item describes prefix URL redirect method in Section 5.2 to help understand discrepancies. Section 5— fourth, Section 5.2 describes enclosure URLs in the RSS feed servers and their impact on measurement.

Can you stop? I want to stop you right there. What I want you to tell us what the enclosure URL is, just in case people don't know.

So the enclosure URL is the key of what makes RSS feeds work. Every episode of a podcast has to have an enclosure URL. That is the link to the media file. That URL for the media file does not have to be at all related to the URL of the RSS feed, right? Your RSS feed might be mydomain.com/rss, but the URL of that media file Could be traffic or captivate.com. It could be, it could be any podcast host. It could be wherever it goes, but it does per the IAB requirements need to be going to a hosting company that is certified. So the enclosure URL is key. That's important one.

That's also the URL when that URL changes causes Spotify to redownload on some of their client-side stuff. 5th item, Section 5.4 describes common fraudulent activity types and existing standards to further assess anomalies, which may be legitimate activities. And finally, the 6th item, Section 5.5.1 describes 3 measurement window types used in counting downloads and demonstrates what, with examples, how they are applied for measurement. Again, those are the 6 key updates. in version 2.3. We are now at the IAB committee starting to work on the next version and talking about that. But this one here, open to public comments until August 19th. We'll have a link to it in the show notes so you can go and read it and have any comments.

And if you have any questions on any of it, you can always email me, rob.walch, W-A-L-C-H, Yeah, so just make sure, I think that that's one thing that a lot of us, I think as a community, need to kind of pay attention to, or at least understand that this documentation is actually open for everybody to be able to read. So you're welcome to read all of these things, and I implore you to do so. I know that there's, we're going to be doing a session, you and I and Danny, about measurement And podcast downloads and how to sort of measure your growth and your data coming up here in August. But we started to do that because there's so many questions out in the world there where people are like, how come I can't know? You know, there's a lot of sort of demographic information a lot of podcasters want, or how come I can't just have one dashboard for all of these things? And I think that reading this document will really kind of outline the technical Information that you need to know so that you understand what's happening when somebody is consuming or downloading, or when there's a download that's happening, like the technicalities around that and the things that are, that we know and the things that we don't know and what that means. So this is a great start for you to get to know that, and that way it'll just inform the questions that you put forth. And maybe, you know, we can get some really good feedback also based on. your understanding of what this is.

Yeah. And this document too is all about server-side statistics, not client-side.

Go ahead and really quickly define that just because there's a lot of people, you know, we're going to go into this later on too in August in our Growth Labs, but it's good to just put this out there already. Just—

Server-side is your hosting companies. Um, it's your prefix people. It's where we see the requests coming in from specific users, their IP addresses, that information, but that's all we have on them. We just know the request came in and we know how many bytes were delivered out, but that's what we know on the server side. Client side, and we'll talk about that later in this episode, client side is about what happens inside Apple Podcasts. That's the client. Apple Podcasts is a client. Spotify is the client.

Overcast is a client. Any of the aggregator apps is client side.

Okay.

So server-side is hosting companies, prefixes like Claritas and Magellan, and then client-side is aggregator apps and also browsers, but really, I really don't— it really, when you say client-side, you're really talking about aggregator apps is what you're talking about. Yeah.

And those are, there's a differentiation between data that passes that and how you are able to know information around that. But yeah, we'll talk about that further again in August, but That gives us a first step to start up. But so read it, link in the show notes. All right, so now there's a lot of sitting in that update, but there's a lot more that we're gonna cover, so let's get to it. It's not just for the geeks and OGs, this show's for those in and around podcasting. Hey, hey, welcome to In and Around Podcasting, the podcast industry show that brings you a range of powerful podcasting perspectives. I'm Elsie Escobar from Captivate, joined by Rob Walsh, VP of Podcaster Relations, and we've got a lot to cover today. So taking a look at the conversation shaping podcasting this week and diving into the AMP Accords and the podcast consumer from Edison Research and some more.

So let's, let's see where we go from here. All right, Rob. The AMP Accords.

So there have been a lot of articles written, episodes recorded, and talking about the AMP Accords. In short, the biggest part of the AMP Accords is about getting consumption data back from major aggregator apps, i.e., the client side, to see if ads were actually consumed. I mean, that's what it's all about. And to start, we would love for that consumption data to be available. We have always wanted that type of data for our customers. And if that data becomes available, we would work to support it. That's the official Captivate position. From the rest of this point on, by the way, I think we're gonna be talking about opinions of Elsie and, and Rob.

So I just wanna put that out, right? There's a— that's Captivate. Okay, Elsie, go ahead. Now we're into the opinion part.

All right. So I think one of those things I keep reminding myself while reading this is that, you know, this document isn't really written for creators and, and that's who I wanna speak for as we go through this. I'm, I'll be here for the creator side of things. I'm not. That's what, where I, my heart is. That's where my knowledge is. That's where my expertise is. So it's written for the industry that surrounds creators, right? So buyers and sellers and platforms, and that's okay.

That's what it's trying to do. But I had to keep reminding myself of that because I naturally kept reading it through a creator lens as I was reading the document. And, and as I mentioned before about the IAB of it all, there's gonna be a link to this document as well in the show notes so that you can also read it and know what it actually says in the words inside the document. So go ahead. Yes, Rob.

So getting into my personal opinions and observations, and this is when I read the articles reporting on the Ampacord or listening to episodes on podcasts talking about the Ampacords, they fail to mention completely in most cases, or in a very few cases that do kind of mention this, That they just brush off the biggest issue, in my opinion, of the document and of trying to get this kind of data, and that is privacy. Whether or not the AMP Accords happen is not down to the advertisers, the ad agencies, the ad networks, the podcast hosting companies, the podcasters, or even the IAB.

Nope.

It is all down to the privacy lawyers at the biggest aggregator apps, and more specifically at Apple and Spotify. Without their sign-off on sharing the consumption information granularly for each individual listener out to many different third parties, that is, nothing gets built and nothing gets done. Without the sign-off by Apple and Spotify's lawyers, the other apps getting around 1% or more of consumption Which is what the document calls out wanting to be also on board, which really comes down to Overcast, Pocket Casts, iHeartRadio, Podbean, Amazon Music, Castbox, and Podcast Addict. None of them are likely going to do anything. And really, who could blame them? I mean, why spend the money on privacy lawyers if Apple and Spotify are not publicly on board? Why would— spend any dev time if your own privacy lawyers have not reviewed this and signed off on it? And why would you spend the money on the privacy lawyers if Apple and Spotify's privacy lawyers haven't come out and said, yes, we're behind this? I know there has been talk by multiple people about paying the aggregator apps, giving them a cut, but no, once that happens, then the privacy rules change for the aggregator apps, making things even more difficult and expensive. When you go from a simple sharing the data relationship to selling the data relationship, it changes responsibility of the parties. And if the ag apps are paid anything, it 100% changes to selling of the data relationship. A data sale, especially under CPRA, C-P-R-A, that's California's privacy laws, will elevate responsibilities around opt-out rights.

Sale-specific notices and documentation, and you will still have the need for consent in the EU and UK with GDPR disclosures and strict contracts. It would layer on additional sale-related obligations and make the service provider safe harbor harder, if not impossible, to claim. In short, apps getting a cut of the action will increase their responsibilities and documentation and other requirements and costs. Of the ag apps. I'm not saying not to pay the apps a share, just that in doing so, note there are unintended consequences that will change how the apps notify users and make it more likely listeners would opt out of having their information sold. So again, if we pay them, then they have to put a more public notice that their information is being sold. And do you want to opt out of this? So paying them, while it might be nice for the apps, it will ultimately result in a lot less data coming in. So one key thing to note around privacy law violations in the EU, and this is really important, is that the EU can fine a company up to 4% of their global revenue in a year.

And the EU loves to fine companies for privacy issues, especially companies from the US. And that 4% is not 4% of their podcast revenue, but 4% of all their global revenue for everything that they— that company does. And before you write in and say, it's not fair or accurate to say the EU likes to fine companies for privacy violations, Rob, especially US companies, please realize that thousands of companies have been fined by the EU for GDPR violations with billions and billions of euros in fines being levied. And around 83% of the amount of those fines was to US-based companies. Just want to drop some fact-checking in there for you so you know what the privacy lawyers at Apple and Spotify already know, because they know that. Back to my soapbox or conversation. In my opinion, for Apple, I believe that 4% of global sales risk is going to be too big of a risk for Apple's privacy lawyers to sign off on. Especially given the almost nonexistent revenue Apple gets from podcasting.

And please do not think I am putting any negativity towards Apple or Spotify here. What is being asked to be shared is a lot of data from listeners. It's a big ask and one that is hard to explain how it helps the listeners.

Hmm.

Now, I could very much be wrong on this, and I really, really, really hope I am. And Apple and Spotify's lawyers may already be on board with this, and they might think the risk of a fine for 4% of global revenue is well worth it to help the podcasting space in general to get more ad revenue off the sidelines, even if in Apple's case, it does not directly benefit them. But until we get official word from Apple and Spotify on this, I cannot see how any other companies can start doing anything per the accord. At least for the consumption data side of things. Elsie, any thoughts?

I mean, you know, reading those privacy sections or even, and thinking through your commentary here actually made me appreciate how much engineering work is behind all of this as it pertains to getting everybody on board, right? So this is something that most podcasters really don't think about either. We often ask, why can't we get XYZ when people are consuming our content? Why can't we know more, right? And ultimately, I think development takes time, resources, and it needs to make sense financially and align with their business structure. And when I'm saying their business structure, I'm talking about those aggregator apps, right? Because I was actually just thinking through this. A lot of the community itself, the podcasting community itself, kind of grew from basically independent people, rebellious types, people who wanted to do it on their own, came up with technical solutions to consume media in a way that was free and without gatekeepers, right? And so it became a collaborative experience where a lot of the podcast apps came from the problem that people who wanted to consume the content had, not people who were trying to make money off of people. Like that was not a thought at the beginning. It was like, oh, let's, how do we create something that everybody can consume? What makes it easier for somebody to consume this content? And so that's where the aggregator apps came from. And their reason for existing was essentially in the most, you know, Pollyanna way, it was to serve The listeners. It was to serve consumers and making it easy for them to consume the content.

And therefore, they thought a valid way for them to get paid for that work was to get paid from the listeners for the best experience in consuming the content. That's the business structure. So what we're asking them to do now is to sort of—

Change it.

Shift the business model of why they got into it in the first place. And that's a very hard, I think, values-driven, mission-driven question that you have to sit with and kind of go, do I want to now have this type of business? Do I really want to get into that type of business? And from what I know of the spirit of people who get into podcasting, Mm-hmm. Most of them don't get into it for that. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

So it just becomes a little more like it's asking a lot for something that we don't really know. And I think that they would rather be in a nebulous, maybe financially unstable environment, which is creating a podcast app overall. But they're doing it their way, right? They're with their eyes open, and they're willing to take chances that people don't pay for premium. But they're creating something they love. And I think that there's value in that for its own.

Really, I didn't talk on the technical side. I really just was on the privacy side. And the reason— I mean, I can get into the technical side. I can talk about the fact that, OK, it's sending back 30-second byte ranges. Saying that it's consumed those 30 seconds and it's sending it back. But what happens when you have a show that has, say, 10 or 15 mid-roll ad markers for programmatic ads? And somebody in Albania is listening to the app and they get no mid-roll ads and their episode is 60 minutes long, but somebody in Albany, New York is listening to the ad and the episode is 75 minutes long because of all the mid-rolls. And well, those 30 seconds are different between those two, even though it's the same file that 2 people are listening to, they're actually different lengths. Now you need to know how many mid-rolls was in that episode.

So now you're gonna have to put in a unique identifier in the ID3 tags, and that has to be sent back so that you can have a data— I don't wanna call it a data lake anymore. Now you can have a data ocean because you have to keep a log of every individual stitch so you know exactly where each one is. Again, I don't wanna get into that even though I just did, because to me, all of those points. On the technical side, figuring out how to work it out. And those are things we'll talk about on the IAB. All of those points are moot if Apple and Spotify's lawyers don't sign off on this, because then we're not getting any of that data back. And if Apple and Spotify's lawyers don't sign off and I'm sitting there and I'm one of the other apps that are around 1%, I'm not spending money on privacy lawyers to review this. I'm not spending dev time on this.

To me, when I was out there listening and reading, everybody's missing, to me, what was the key issue. And that's We're taking listeners' data, a lot of it, and sharing it. And there's key rules around that in Europe and Brazil and South Africa. In California, the rules are slightly different than Virginia versus Colorado. In the US, it's really a fragmented problem. So there's a lot there on the privacy side. And I just— I'm really hoping that we hear something back from Apple's and Spotify's lawyers. So we know where we're at on this.

And again, we'll talk about this in the IAB here in a second. But to me, that's the key thing. There's a lot of techie nerd stuff on this. I've been talking with people on the side, including people in the IAB committees and others. And we're all throwing up ideas about, OK, how do you do this and implement this? But I've got to get the privacy lawyers on board first.

On the consumer side, when I use streaming services, any of the Max or HBO Max or Peacock or Netflix and stuff, I I'm a give me the ads girl. I'm not paying whatever amount of money for no ads, 'cause it's just gonna, it's like hundreds of dollars as it would be to have all these, you know what I mean? So I get ads with all, like I'm choosing to pay the cheaper plans so that I get ads. The experience is horrible overall. Um, not because the ads are bad, not because I don't want ads, it's because usually a lot of the time. More times than I would want it to not happen, the playback messes up somehow. It stops. I'm like, what happened? How come it didn't load again? I have to sometimes close the app and turn on the app. I don't know if it has to do with the fact that my iPad, usually when I watch those, I'm on my iPad and it's a fairly old iPad, but I don't like the fact that it is, I always have some kind of weird error where The sound is off, like it starts off and then like the audio is weird.

Like it starts playing one time and it's because of the ads. And then I know that it's because they need to count how many ads were served and it needs to show that I actually, in quote, consumed those ads or that I was exposed to those ads. And when, when the show starts again, it happens too many times and it's a very frustrating experience as a consumer to have that happen.

Yeah.

I feel like that is going to be a problem also with listening, and it's gonna be a frustrating experience for the consumer.

Well, one of the things that's not 100% certain is, can you do one opt-in, one opt-out on an aggregator app, or do you need to do it for each individual podcast, right? So you go into an app, And if that podcast has ads, do you now get a popup that says this podcast data is going to be sent back, sold, whatever? Do you opt in or opt out? So when this consent, the question comes, can you do one consent in an individual app or do you need to do a consent for each podcast that's in that app that has a place for the data to be sent back to? Again, a lot of questions here around the privacy side and how that's going to impact the listeners. I mean, what kind of experience is it every time you go to listen to a new podcast? You go to, oh, well, let's see, this podcast looks interesting. You hit play and the first thing that pops up is like, do you consent to have your data sold? So it's just going to depend on where people are located and how this experience is going to be. And again, Europe is a lot different than a lot of places in the US. And if— The apps are getting paid. Again, do they need to have that notification and their easy opt-out of their data being sold for each individual podcast? Or is it one time will be sufficient? And I don't know the answer on that. So yes, the future of consumption data is in the hands of lawyers.

All right.

All right. Now, the AMP Accord was not just about sharing listener data. It also had a definition of what a podcast is. In the AMP Accord, they say the following, quote, if it works with your eyes closed, it is a podcast, unquote. And I understand they were trying to simplify it as much as possible, but in my opinion, the definition is a little too limiting. What about Tiki Bar TV, Rocket Boom, Ask a Ninja, or Happy Tree Friends? In my opinion, these were and are podcasts. I helped sell podcast ads for some of them in the past. Happy Tree Friends.

Even though it's a cartoon. But really, the folks at Mondo Media, even though Happy Tree Friends is a cartoon, the Mondo Media folks created custom ad reads for advertisers for me. If the goal of the document was to get money off the sidelines, why would we want to take any creators and put them on said sidelines? And the IAB, by the way, already has a definition of what a podcast is. Here's the definition from the IAB. Quote, podcast content is an on-demand media format that listeners either download to listen to later or consume online. Unlike the streaming format more common in video, podcasts continue to be downloaded because of the convenience offered by existing platform and application functionality, unquote. And I mentioned the IB's definition because in the AMP Accord, They state in that, quote, upon completion of its work, AMP dissolved before handing over its outputs to the IAB for consideration and deeper technical review, unquote. So it seems, if I understand that correctly, going forward, anything with regards to the AMP Accord now is up to the IAB to implement or recommend or change or dismiss or some combination thereof.

Being I'll be on the IAB committee that will be looking at this, cannot really talk too much on what the IAB will do until the IAB officially makes a decision and then makes said decision public.

Now, before you continue on and about the AMP definition of a podcast and what, again, what kept coming up for me the whole time is who is this definition for? And because almost every question in the document In the AMP document starts from a buyer's perspective, right? So it's measurement, attribution, confidence, budgets. Those are the words in the document. So I'm just asking, just literally just asking, who is this definition for, right? And I think that they did outline that inside the document, that it is primarily for the industry and or for that side, the buyer's perspective, that side of it.

Yeah.

I'm just calling that out. That's all.

And again, I understand they were trying to simplify it and make it easy.

Yeah.

Yeah. It just, it just seems to me that there are plenty of video podcasts along the lines that have been around that get pulled out of that definition. And if you're one of those podcasters, if you're Tiki Bar or you were Happy Tree Friends or whatever, I don't think they'd appreciate that definition.

I have a feeling that with this, they did wanna make a broad brushstroke. And then if something comes up where there is like somebody who's doing something incredibly amazing or unique or visually specific, that they would make adjustments based on that, in quote, podcast that requires that.

I am not against at all what the AMP Accord is trying to do. As I stated upfront, The data they're trying to get from players is something all of us have wanted for a long time. I worked on the RAD documents. That was the Remote Audio Data in the past that tried to get this data. And the Ampacord is better than the RAD implementation, which is why I used to joke RAD was, I said, really stood for, uh, Really Already Dead.

Goodness.

But also stated earlier, This really is now in the hands of not the IAB, but rather the privacy lawyers at Apple and Spotify. And until they make a public statement one way or the other, we are today where we were yesterday, with the download remaining the key metric we as an industry will continue to sell against. And that brings me to the most important part about the AMP Accord document, and that is the articles and the episodes that are in response to it, that crap on the download, they are doing far more to hurt the podcasting industry and put buyers' monies on the sideline than the AMP Accord is trying to do to help get money off the sideline, in my opinion. Simply put, don't crap on the download. The download is really all that we have today and tomorrow and for the foreseeable future. And crapping on the download without something in place and agreed upon and tested to replace it is not virtue signaling. It's not showing support for AMP. What it is is stupid and shortsighted, and it will put more media buyers on the sideline, or worse yet, get them to leave the stadium completely.

Maybe that should be the title of this episode, Elsie. Don't crap on the download. Chris Rockwell, you are a visionary.

Oh my God. Yeah.

Yes.

Don't crap on the download. Listen, it's all, it literally is all we have right now. And it would be irresponsible to diminish the value of the metrics that we use, 'cause it's, it just makes everybody feel a little, a certain way that we don't want them to be feeling. And there's so many people that really rely on the system to survive. I think all of us really have a big stake in this. It's like starting from scratch and not starting from scratch. It's like the foundation of your house, right? When you're working on the foundation of your house, you have to be a little bit more wary and aware of how the bits fit together so that we don't remove something that's literally keeping it up, right? So the AMP Accords are trying to solve a very real problem. Better measurement is a real problem.

Better attribution is a real problem. And I don't think anybody disagrees with that, as you just mentioned. The question I kept asking myself was, is that the same thing as moving podcasting forward? Because podcasting is bigger than advertising, even though I get how important it is. Because podcasting is bigger than buyers and sellers. Because podcasting is bigger than attribution. It's also creators. It's audiences. It's community.

And your fave, Rob, it's discoverability.

Mm-hmm.

It's, you know, it really is independent podcasts, independent developers who build this ecosystem alongside creators. It's the people who are making podcasts that may never run a single ad. And I mean, that's a lot of podcasters out there. And I just was wishing that there had been just a little more space in the document for those voices too. And not because this document is wrong or it shouldn't exist or because I don't like it. But because if we're talking about the future of podcasting, I don't think the future is only measured by how well we sell advertising. That's all. I, I think that it's also measured by how easily people can find incredible podcasts.

It's measured how well we protect the audience. It's measured how well we support creators who are building businesses in all kinds of different ways, and how we keep the ecosystem open enough that the next generation can still build something weird and something independent and wonderful because that's the podcasting I came into 20 years ago. And I hope whatever comes next, whether it's Ampacords, something from the IAB, or something else entirely, I hope we don't lose that part of it. By the way, it's my 20th anniversary in podcasting.

Yay!

So I published the first episode of Elsie's Yoga Class at the end of July in 2006. Rob?

Congratulations on hitting the 20-year mark.

Yay!

Excellent. Yay, yay, yay.

So I have one last little thing before we wrap up this, and I get, and again, y'all listen, I'm looking at this from the creator side. I'm looking at this from that artistic side of things. And, you know, I read the AMP Accords and I started to read the IAB and I noted something and I only noted it after I started to read the IAB document. And right at the beginning of the IAB document, here's a quote from the document. It says, it says, quote, IAB Tech Lab collaborates with the podcasting community to establish and maintain metric definitions that can be used consistently in the podcast marketplace, end quote. So podcasting community is framed as collaborative. It's consensus-building partnership. The document positions the community as an active participant in establishing the standards that govern their own industry to build trust and accountability with buyers.

Like, it's built into— I literally saw it right at the beginning. It popped into my head just because that's a big word for me. Now, the AMP Accords made me think like, oh wait, I didn't read that. I immediately thought like, Is the podcasting community a part of that document? So I went back and I looked through it, and there are, there's mentions of community there, but it is in the other side. So one of the first parts is quoting advertiser community. So it says, quote, the AMP Task Force drew its members from talent, sales, hosting, attribution platforms, agencies, and the advertising community that funds it all. So there it's used paired with the financial engine of the industry. And again, the buyers, it signals that while creators and platforms are vital, the ultimate stakeholder being served and who needs to be satisfied to unlock parked, whatever the money is, the advertiser.

And so it's really just focused on that side of it. That's really the biggest mention that I saw in terms of communities. There's another mention there, but it's really. About Reddit communities and how we get the word out and all that stuff. But it's not, it doesn't feel like it's embracing in the same way that it just appealed to me. The IAB, even in, as I started to read it, I think it was all of a sudden I thought, oh, I'm part of this. I felt included. Whereas when I was reading the AMP Accords, I just kept going like, who is this for? And I, and like I mentioned before, I'm looking at this from the creator side.

Yeah.

I'm not in the advertiser buying side. So I immediately felt like it's us versus them kind of is where I was when I was reading the IAB. I thought, okay, I'm part of this. I am part of the podcasting community. I can say that for sure. Anyway, that's just like another observation in terms of languaging.

The Ampacord, as they said in the document, they have disbanded. There was 12 different entities. That were involved in it, they've disbanded and they've thrown the document over the wall to the IAB, metaphorically. And now the IAB will look at this and, and ultimately figure out if there's anything here that technically and legally can be done. And again, my comment, and I hope the message was pretty clear, don't crap on the download. Doing so is not supporting the Ampacord. It's not going to help the Ampacord get approved any sooner. And there is definitely no guarantee.

I mean, Polly Market would put a low percentage on it getting through. So I think if you're crapping on the download right now in belief that this is the next thing and it's a done deal, you're really making a big mistake.

And to kind of like follow, like close this up before we get to the last little bit here that we're going to cover is And I know that we've been having a deeper conversation around this. I just want to say, I actually am— I appreciate the work that went into the AMP Accord. I appreciate that they were committed for as long as they were committed for, the people that were involved in it. I'm sure that there was a lot of time, attention. The document is very well thought out in terms of putting it together and collaborating in this fashion. It's not easy in this day and age to be that committed to put something out like this and to really take a chance and take a risk to move move things forward. So I recognize the work that was involved in that, and I don't feel that this was an affair, anything bad. So I recognize it and grateful to have folks that put so much time and attention and care to put themselves out there in this fashion.

So kudos for the work. And It's getting people talking. And I think that that's important also. All right. So the podcast consumer for medicine research, Rob.

All right. More data.

More data.

More data. All right. Key item here, 58% of Americans 12+ consumed a podcast in the last month. So this is the 2026 data. And 167 million monthly consumers. up from 158 million in 2025. So podcasting continues to grow. You put in here some data on how that growth has happened over the last, well, since 2008.

Yeah, it's like, I think that part of that growth, what's really interesting there is that it went from in 2008, 9%, 12-year-olds and up, right? Because that's what it, through all this stuff, 9% listened to a podcast in the last month. Moving all the way to 2026, which is 58%, which is what you just mentioned, that listened or watched a podcast in the last month. That's a lot. That's a huge amount of everything that's moving in there. And from 2025 onward, the way that the edit, the report here from the podcast consumer, they've changed the language as of 2025 where it says listened or watched a podcast. So it doesn't, it's not just audio only starting from 2025. So that's when they started to ask. To, to do that kind of a thing, right? And part of the age differences here is 12 to 34-year-olds, 64% listened to or watched a podcast in the last month.

And from the 35 to 54 range, 68%, which is the highest, listened or watched a podcast in the last month. And that's really nice. Now, 55 plus, 44%, that's up From 21% in 2023 listened or watched a podcast in the last month. Now, I venture to say that that's not surprising because the 35 to 54-year-olds became 55 plus, right? So I think that that's just gonna keep on rising because—

Yeah, I moved up, I moved up into that group.

So, yeah.

So for the longest time I was in the 35 to 54 group. Not anymore.

I will be moving into that group very soon. So, I mean, there's a lot of us that has started, right, that are gonna be moving into that group. So I foresee that this is gonna continue to grow. In terms of gender, this was surprising to me. Men at, we're at 62% have listened or watched a podcast in the last month, and 54% of women have listened or watched a podcast in the last month. So I think from what I remember in looking at the slides, this number has gone down. There was a time there where the genders started to be a little bit more equal, like it was like 1 or 2 percentage points, and then it kind of moved down as of this year. I don't know what that's all about, but—

We need more true crime podcasts. Come on.

We do. Rob, no more. Or maybe the point is that people are just, all people are listening to true crime podcasts now, which is... Probably not good either. In terms of audio versus video, 36% listen and watch, 15% are audio only, and 7% are video only. And in terms of audience diversity, 63% of Black Americans consume podcasts monthly. 60% of Latino Americans consume podcasts monthly. Both of those are very robust numbers, I think, for that type of audience diversity.

Yeah.

Yeah, especially since Black Americans consuming podcasts is greater than men overall, which was 62%. Wow, look at that. Right? So I mean, so yeah.

That's very good. In terms of audience loyalty, 21% of weekly podcast listeners financially supported a podcast in the past year. And out of those supported, 47% gave to support the host/creator and 36% gave for exclusive content.

I think that means 47% basically said, here's a tip. And 36% said, oh, I get something— they're getting something for it. So 47%, just like if you listen to Hardcore History, a buck a show is all we ask. So they're just giving out of the kindness of their heart is that 47%. So kudos, listeners. Very nice. Well done.

Very nice and well done. And also, I mean, just noting here the language for that one because that's 21% of weekly podcast listeners, not the monthly ones, but weekly podcast listeners financially supported a podcast in the past year, which to me makes, you know, it's those people who are really super engaged. Now, in the Share of Ear report, for those that listen to audio in the day, 10% of the time spent listening to audio was to podcasts. But for those that listen to podcasts daily, 36% of their time is spent on podcasts.

What I wonder is what percentage of daily video watchers' time is spent on podcasts.

Yeah, that's amazing.

With audio, there's far less competition for podcasts with other audio sources, right? There's music, there's radio, there's music, and that's your competition, right? That's your— right? But video, I mean, video, there's Netflix, there's Hulu, there's Disney+, there's playing video games, there's regular live television and CNN and Fox and and NewsNation and live sports, right? NBA, NFL, all, I mean, on Twitch. Twitch streams like so much.

Right.

TikTok and Instagram Reels and so many competitors on the video side and YouTube and all just short and Mark Rober and all that stuff and MrBeast. But on podcasts, the audio side, there's music, It's radio. And that's your competition. Streaming, I guess, is streaming audio. But I would love to see what the breakdown is if they, hopefully if they're listening, you know, guys, give us a breakdown like that for video. Where are people spending their time on the video? Because I'd really love to see how that competition is. Is it 10%? Like, or is it 2%? Is it 1% of video consumption during the day is spent on podcasts? overall. So really be interesting to see that number.

Yeah, that is a, that's a great ask. That's a great ask. So Rob, tell us a little bit about what this whole AI situation— there's a slide in here of the Edison Podcast Metrics that was like really interesting.

Right, right. So they asked, do you approve or disapprove of podcasts using generative AI To complete the following steps of the podcast creation process. And this is the percent saying they approve. Conduct research. 69% said that's fine to use AI for that. Brainstorm ideas, which really is the same thing. But I mean, okay. Uh, and it's the same number, 69%.

So I guess that even the people answering were thinking, well, it's the same thing. Okay. Check, check. Create graphics for social media posts. 64% that said that's fine. Create cover art, 63%. That's okay. Generate a transcript, 60% are okay with the transcript being generated, not the script.

The transcript is— I'll read that. That means after the episode's done. 57% were good with finding guests using AI. I, I, why is that number not 69%?

I know, I don't understand. This is when I get— there's some stuff here I'm like, what? Okay, go ahead.

Why, why would you be against AI helping a podcaster to find guests? Edit existing video. 53% are okay with that because I guess 47% of watchers of video want you to struggle through your editing process. Generate a script. Now this is the generated script. Surprising that 48% approve of that. I would, you know, that I would have thought, you know, that it's pretty close to— anyway.

Yeah.

Edit existing audio from a human host. 43% are okay with that, which means 57% said no, don't use Descript.

Yeah, I know. That's what I was thinking about. I was like, oh my God, don't use Descript or Riverside, which is like literally what everybody's using.

All right. To generate video, 42%. I can't believe that's only 1% difference from the last one. Okay. Write social media posts, 38% said no. So that means there's more people okay with you generating a script and generating the video with AI than there are you making the social media posts with AI.

Which is like the most hardest thing to do sometimes, which is like, that's why I was just like, that's literally what everybody's using it for is social media posts.

So I really was confused going down this. Host the podcast as an AI-generated voice. 75% said, no, sir. 25% said, okay.

That makes sense.

Makes sense.

That's like the, literally the only thing that I was like, but the writing social media posts that like, I was just like, what? Like, what do you think? Like, no, you must do your own social media posts.

You'll not use AI to type 140 characters or 280.

And yet they want the graphics for the social media points. That's okay. That's okay for your picture to be AI, your graphics part, but the writing has to be you.

Some interesting data. I mean, when you look at it, makes you wonder. I know if I was answering down this, my yes and nos would've been different than how everybody voted. So I guess I'm out of touch.

Well, see, but this is also the podcast consumer, which I think is different because I think that they might not Understand the flow. Like, you know what I mean? It's a challenge.

They don't know how hard it is. They don't know how hard it is to create a podcast. Podcasting is really hard. AI tools to help you create it are good anyway. Speaking of which, yeah, and we're talking AI, um, this is from India and this is the Information Technology Intermediary Guidelines and Digital Media Ethics Code Rules 2021. And per that, we got this email from GeoSovin. And GeoSovin said, quote, we are writing about a regulatory change that directly affects how content is submitted to the GeoSovin platform. On February 10th, 2026, MEITY notified amendments to the IT guidelines I just mentioned that via Gazette Notification GSR 120E amendments, These amendments took effect on February 20th, 2026.

As per the amendments, any content that has been artificially or algorithmically created, generated, or materially altered using certain computer resources, more commonly referred to as artificial intelligence, AI, now fall under the rules defined as synthetically Generated information, SGI. This includes synthetically generated, created audio, example, music, voice, and sound, and obviously podcasts, and AI-generated metadata. Standard post-production processes such as noise reduction, equalization, and compression that may be carried out using AI are excluded. So they, unlike 43% or 57% of the people before who said don't use AI for editing existing audio from humans, they said it's okay. So per these rules in India, a podcast script that is written by a human but recorded using an AI voice would be considered SGI, but A script written by AI and recorded by a human would not be considered SGI. Obviously, a script written by AI and recorded by AI is AI. But using AI in post-production to clean up the audio recorded by humans, and I guess also create a social media post, is not considered SGI.

Okay.

So using Adobe Podcast to clean up and sweeten your audio is okay under this ruling. So I'm good because that's what I use. Just to let you know, further on in the email, I didn't get into it. When we're notified or a podcast is notified that their podcast has been flagged as SGI, you have 3 hours.

3 hours?

3 hours.

Wow.

to update your notification that says your podcast has used SGI or your podcast gets pulled. 3 hours from a company in India that's going to send out the notification at 2 in the morning.

Oh my.

Brilliant. Or I should say 1:30 in the morning because they're on the half hour, but brilliant either way. So here's the thing. If you are using AI-generated voice in your podcast for audio podcasts, if you're using an AI-generated voice, you have to disclose in your podcast description that it is SGI if you want it to remain in, in GeoSaven. And I'm assuming that means Ghana as well. Let you know, those 2 apps are under the Indian law, and ultimately these kinds of things propagate out and eventually it'll be everywhere. But yeah, I love that they, they had 3 hours. You had 3 hours to reply.

Oh, well, goodness gracious, they're gonna have to move quickly.

Mm-hmm.

Those podcasters. Okay, almost finishing up with this. The advert— some advertising data on the Edison Podcast Consumer Report. 76% of weekly podcast listeners have taken an action after hearing a podcast ad, which is like, yikes. By the way, this is weekly podcast listeners, so it's like a lot. 76% is a lot. 52% are more likely to pay attention to ads that are honest and transparent. 'Cause of course.

What are the other 48% thinking? I don't know them.

They don't care. 56% pay more attention when an ad is funny.

So 44% have no sense of humor.

All right. They don't.

Yeah.

They think it— 51% pay more attention when an ad feels unique or different. Well, which make— also makes sense. I mean, you know, we want a little something something.

So thank you, Edison, for As always, doing the yearly share of year and podcast report, we love it and we love the updates that come out throughout the year. So Edison, thank you. We love getting that feedback. Still not sure who those 57% are that don't want you editing existing audio with AI.

Okay. I know, that was so sad.

I want to talk to those 57%. I want to show them what it takes to get all the ums and uhs and dead air out.

Yes, absolutely. Oh my God. Well, yeah, all links will be in the show notes, everybody. Yeah, you can read it for yourself. Send us your feedback over at community@captivate.fm. You can record an audio piece, a piece of audio feedback. We'll play it on the show. You can give us your thoughts on what Rob and I covered on this episode for sure.

Let us know. We're here. We wanna know what you're thinking. Okay, so we have a cool new podcasting tool. At least I think I have a cool new podcasting tool, Rob. It is really neato. So, uh, this came into my brain from our friend, the podcast helper, Ray Ortega. He posted about this and I was like, excuse me? This is called the SmallRig.

So the company is called SmallRig.

Mm-hmm.

S70, and it's a little wireless microphone. Okay? It is very inexpensive. I got mine for about $80-something because I got extra things on it, but it, it actually, when it's on sale, This thing was like around $70, which is pretty amazing.

It's $90 today, just FYI, $89.99. Okay.

It's very small, Rob. You can kind of see it because we, Rob and I can see each other, but this is the white one. There's a little black one that you can have, but it looks like it's like, looks silver to me. And when you open it up, it's got the whole setup in here. It's got these cute little microphones, very easy to use. Super amazing. And it's got the little microphone that you can stick into. It can have a Lightning port and/or a USB-C, and you can put this, the tiny little receiver into your computer or the phone, and then you can have the cute little microphone that you can put on.

Now it is very What's the other part there? There's 3, there's one other piece.

This little part is for, so there's another little part that you can actually stick to a camera.

Camera? Okay.

It's a camera device thing and it's got 2 of them, right? So it's, it comes with 2 little lav mics that you can put on and they are very, you know what they're called when people, when you don't want people to see them. So when you put them onto your shirt or whatever, it's very small. It's very unassuming when you put it on. It's very easy to use with a phone. The sound quality is very good for the price point for sure. And the other thing that I got with mine is it has these little colorful sort of gummy things. Like it's like a little rubber thing, like you cover it up and it's got different colors so it matches your clothes. So like you could put like the black one or the blue, like you can dress it up so it, it looks very unobtrusive and it's so light to carry this around.

I tested it out. It sounds fantastic. It has some noise canceling on it. In a pinch, this is what I've been carrying in my backpack now for very quick having them in there. And again, they're very inexpensive. This is actually now my suggestion for anybody who wants to level up sort of their audio if they're recording video on their phones. So easy, very inexpensive, under $100. For sure.

The competition is the DJI Mic Mini and the Hollyland M2S. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes, you guys, so that you can see a video. First, I'm gonna put Ray Ortega's video that talks about this SmallRig so you can watch him go deep into it. But then I also have another video where you could see the DJI Mic versus the Hollyland. Versus, I believe, the SmallRig as well in there. And you could see the 3 and why and how they all sound, because those are about the same. And this is such a great price. I do have the Shure MOTIV that I've been using for whenever I get on a Meets call, because I have a problem with Meet with Google, not, not Google Meet, sorry.

Teams, sorry, Teams. I hate Teams. Teams is not a great app. I hate Teams. And so I, it can never get, it does, it does weird stuff with Bluetooth. So now I've been using it for whenever I'm on that and it sounds really great. I love my Shure, but those are really higher, much higher end. Those are like over $200 and this is like under $100, which is great.

Love it.

We'll have a link in the show notes to it. And, and it also, it's competition to the Rode. mics that the Rode mic I have.

Yeah, absolutely. And those Rode mics, it's just that they have too much Rode and have too much branding for me in the front of them.

I'm sitting here looking at this going, okay, there goes another $90. All right, gotta go buy it.

They're so— it's, I mean, it's really easy. And I think for me, usability is key. And so they just work right out of the box. They just work. They have everything that you need and the volume, it's like, I really dig 'em. I'm so excited by that purchase. Okay, so now we're onto Rob, the flattering ram. The flattering ram.

I will let you take this one. This is, this is your boyfriend, so.

Oh, well, actually this isn't my boyfriend. No, this is not my boyfriend, Rob. Okay, listen, so this is a big shout out to Dustin Block. He is the current developer of Castro. So when I say my ex-boyfriend, LOL, I mean Castro, the app, is my ex-boyfriend. But actually, maybe—

Yeah, people that have listened to us for a long time know, understand that.

Yes, totally. People who have known us from back in the day will understand that. But actually what I would say is not my ex-boyfriend, but maybe my first love, Castro app. The Castro app was my first love. But anyway, Dustin wrote a piece called Podcast Apps: A Framework for Dying Slowly with Dignity, and you really, really do need to Go read his, it's a, it's a really great point of view. It's worth your time to pay attention to it, you know, and while you're doing that, support independent developers of podcast apps. They support the ecosystem in ways that are completely overlooked. And Dustin makes a case for basically not starting a podcast app.

And that tells you all you need to know about the kind of people that do make podcast apps because they're going into it with eyes wide open. Because why? They care because they love to do their work, because they love to solve problems, and dare I say it, are fiercely independent and wanna take risks, do things and break things, and then build them back up, which is really just wonderful. Uh, so your call to action today, everybody, is download an independent podcast app, pay annually for one, and they aren't that much money. Or maybe if not one, just one month of premium in one podcast app. And if you don't want to do that, write a social media post loving on your favorite independent podcast app and teach some folks about one piece of functionality that your app does that you love. Let's feed those LLMs with information about independent podcast apps because that is so good for the entire ecosystem. But again, Dustin Block is doing great stuff and great writing on podcast apps over there. He just started that blog, and it's a different point of view that we often don't get, and I think it merits you paying attention so that we know that it's not just this or that.

There's just a, there's an entire community that has supported podcasting from its inception that oftentimes doesn't really get as much eyes or ears on it. So yay, Dustin Block.

Yeah, I was reading the article and it the issues with starting a podcast app. And I remember I was at one of the podcast movements and someone came up to me and I'd known, and he comes up saying, yeah, I'm gonna start a podcast app. And I said like, oh, haha, funny, funny. Yeah, you know, that'd be, what a waste of that time that would be. I thought he was joking. I thought he was coming up to me saying he was starting an app because I said, it's really tough. The apps don't get any percentages, da, da, da. And he was serious.

No.

And I thought he was joking. And he was like, no, I'm serious. I'm like, oh. I'm so sorry. I mean, so sorry that not— I'm sorry that I said it. I'm also so sorry that you're actually serious.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's really tough. It's really tough to start an app and to get any traction. And I've talked to so many people over the years that have started apps for podcast consumption and didn't get hardly any uptake. I mean, I still remember, was it the Swell app? Was it? I think it was. The one that Apple acquired, and they didn't acquire it for the app, they acquired it for the engineer because he was doing something really unique. But that app, when it had been acquired, had gotten, like in the previous month, had a total of 21,000 downloads across all podcasts that I could measure. And so it's really tough to get any mass. And there's hundreds, people don't realize there's hundreds and hundreds of podcast apps out there.

It's not just the ones we mentioned earlier that are around the 1%, but there's only a handful, less than 10 that get over half a percent. And when you look at the hundreds and hundreds, that means there's out there that where they're, we used to joke I'd give a percentage and I'd stop and go in and then that less than 0.01% that don't, I mean, it was, that didn't, weren't Mentioning, but—

But still though, Rob, I want more. I mean, I know it's hard, but lots of things are hard. And I just, you know, kudos to being able to give a solution to a problem that I think a lot of us really are looking for. And, and, you know, the visibility into what that is and, and that these exist is still really dark. There's a lot of people who don't even know that there's anything outside something like Spotify. We talked about that in a past episode. And I just feel that I think as a collective, if we, we do want a more robust way of doing things, I feel we need them. I would be, you know, I was just thinking about my top favorite apps on my phone that really give me quality of life, like to the point where they are every day.

I use them every day and they make my life better are Overcast and the Libby app. Those 2 are listening apps. For me, they are quality of life. And they make my life better. I love them so much. I'm in them all day. And, um, those 2 apps are everything to me, so I don't want them to go away.

So have you been anywhere recently?

Uh, no, I don't think that I have, but where are we going, Rob?

I will be going to Podcast Movement NYC in September where I will be giving my Yes, that marketing advice for your podcast is BS session. Thanks for all that voted for that session. It was one of the ones that was voted in. So thank you very much for making it. It was in that top 30 range for most of the voting. I will be making a special video version of that session where maybe the first part is at Podcast Movement New York City live and the rest will be via URL, or I might do it the opposite way. I've been thinking about it. thinking maybe switching it around where I do the video first and it leads up and then the conclusion of the video is live at the event.

So it gives a little bit more insight and background on the data that I'll be talking about in that last 15 minutes. And I'll, I'll send that out to people that say they're going to be at the session. I don't know. I have to figure out which way I'm going to do it. I'm going to try it both ways and see which one makes sense. But either way, You want to make sure you attend because there's going to be part of it. And the URL, again, I'm going to give it to those that are signed up and registered. So you want to make sure you attend to get all of the content.

That's what I'll say. There's going to be a lot. There'll be the, the 15 minutes that is allocated for me there, plus I'll create additional content to go along with that.

Yay. All right. Well, you have some stuff here to finish out the show.

Yeah, FYI, we've mentioned Captivate now supports the full DAI programmatic waterfall. I've had a bunch of people email me about that. What does that mean? It means you can stitch in your own ads. Yes, because this is what people just want to confirm. Yes, you can stitch in your own ads, your own promos into your episodes, and then have programmatic fill in any open ad slots. And all of this is part of the— starts with the standard $19 a month account. From Captivate or any other account level. If you need both DAI for your own ads, promos, PSAs, and programmatic fill for empty ad slots, email me rob.walsh@global.com for more info.

But yes, that is included in the $19 a month plan. So yes, a few people were more than confused on— couldn't believe that. Really?

Oh, wow.

Okay. I'm signing up. I'm moving over.

Very awesome. All right, folks. So again, if you have any thoughts, feelings, insight, any other things we, you want us to cover here on In and Around Podcasting, please email the show community@captivate.fm. You can also send me DMs on Threads and or Instagram. You can send me an audio recording there so that I have a little bit of feedback for you to have on the show. That would be amazing. We covered so much, but we'd love to hear from you. And we will be coming back in a couple of weeks.

Bye-bye, y'all. Ciao.