Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@sechangehappan.co.uk, that's S-E-E Change Hapen dot Co dot Uk. You can catch up with all the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places.

So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 97 with the title turning setbacks into comebacks. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Elsa Caleb. Elsa is a business strategist who assists women to develop a robust business plan for the future. And when I asked Elsa to describe her superpower, she said she can get individuals to think differently about their circumstances, especially in the world of business. And she was recently labelled everyone needs an Elsa. Hello, Elsa. Welcome to the show.

Hello, Joanne. And thanks very much for the invitation. Really pleased to be here.

I'm really pleased. We've been talking about this for several months, and I'm finally pleased. We got here at the tail end of 2023, just before the new year. So absolutely fantastic. Elsa, turning setbacks into comebacks. Tell me about that.

Yeah, it's interesting. And also the timing of today's show, because we all remember Brexit. Yeah, we also remember Covid, and now we're currently going through the cost of living crisis. And the change of the year was roughly when Brexit kicked in because we came out of Europe, Covid kicked in in the march. So the timing now is, I think it's just right for people to begin to start thinking about what they want to do going forward. Okay, let's take some of the setbacks. For example, most of the clients that I meet at the moment, as soon as they meet with me, they always say before COVID And I'm thinking, if I hear that again, not that I'll scream, I'll do something, I don't know, differently, but once they start with that sentence, I now think, okay, there's been some setbacks. There's something that's held them back.

They're not as progressive as they were prior to, say, Covid or even Brexit. It's the changes that have happened worldwide that have really made an impact on a lot of individuals'lives, as we all know. And some people just cannot seem to shake it off. Yeah. So let's take Covid, for example. A lot of women, for example, had to, in some cases, give up their livelihood, even if it means being at home to school children, to do the schooling for the children. And in some cases, some of them were not equipped. And also with children, you know, you need space, you need to be out and about, you need to have the energy to be able to deal with them.

Whereas overnight, people's lives changed. The way that they had to do things changed. And it wasn't that they had a choice. They actually just had to make the changes there and then. And in some cases, they adapted because they had to. But a bit of them, I felt, in some cases, have been left behind. So now that the doors have been opened up and we're actually moving forward, and some people are now saying, oh, I can't go back to the job that I used to do. I now want to do something more creative.

I'm speaking to individuals who are saying, look, all I know is to cook, or all I know is to clean. And I'm saying, well, you know something, let's work with that. And when you look at all the skills and experiences that people acquire over the years, and it's things like being organised, it's things like making cups of tea, having routines, planning, et cetera, these are some of the important areas that we need in business. So once we've had a long conversation, I can start telling them what they can do with what they have. They begin to turn their ideas around, they begin to change their mindset, and they begin to have that tiny shining light in front of them. In other words, they begin to hope that there's definitely going to be a positive future. So that's where I always start. But, yes, of late, it's either before Brexit, before COVID and now, as I say, we're going through the crisis.

So, yeah, I always feel that if I get them at that stage and we work together, put some kind of plan together, they're able to move forward in a positive way.

That's really interesting. Yeah, I never thought about it, because Covid is a global bookmark, isn't it? It's an event that everybody has been aware of, from the tip of Africa to the top tip of Alaska, if you like. It's affected the entire world. So I suppose it's not surprising that we use it as an before and after event. You're right. It created life changing moments or situations for many people. As you say, women largely suffered greater inequity because of their responsibility for home management. For one of them, home admin, children, education, or fitting into the.

This is a derogatory term, the wife mode, if you like, looking after everybody. Often seen as the lower paid out of the couple, maybe. So they ended up taking the kitchen table as opposed to the office table or something. The lesser facilities.

Yeah.

Putting their career on hold, definitely.

They had to be more creative, but like you said, just changing the kitchen table into an office table, some of them in some of the works and the jobs that they did, didn't bring work home. Suddenly, to have to manage all of that in one space, it's bound to affect you in some way. And especially when you reach out to people and sometimes just to go out of a home to have a coffee with a friend really changes a lot of things. But to not have that opportunity and then to all of a sudden become very technical because you had to get online, a lot of people had to actually develop a lot of skills very quickly.

Do you think women also, I hate to generalise the stereotype here, but statistically, women were often in lower paid roles in the hospitality or entertainment business, in hourly paid roles, which were some of the most affected at that time. And therefore they lost income, lost purpose, if you like, as well they did.

And if you really think about it, Joanne, you've built your career all your life. In other words, you've sat down and you've mapped it out, you've got it planned. You want to then go for that next promotion, then all of a sudden, bam, it's shut. What do you do then? Where do you go? How do you then take yourself out of that situation to say, you know something, I've still got to continue, I've still got to provide, I've still got to think of myself, but at the same time, I've still got to be there for my children and my family. So I can see how some of them has really affect them, even down to their confidence. I spent more time now helping women to build their confidence and believing in themselves. And people think, oh, it's about the skills and everything. Yes, it is.

That's important. But if the person isn't focused and thinking in an entrepreneurial way, which way are you going to go? It's just going to end up being a hobby as opposed to a business. So there's a lot of changing of the mindset and actual attitude to a lot of things that actually have to come into play and in a short space of time, so moving off from.

COVID because you said about the beginning, you don't want to anchor everything as before COVID after Covid. So let's think about this broadly. More broadly, you talk about transferable skills, you talk about returning midpoint in your life, career pivots post family, if you like, or post care and responsibilities, or just waking up one day and going, why did I pick this subject when I left school? I really don't enjoy this. Be able to press the stop button and say, actually, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore, I want to be a personal trainer. And I use that example because my personal trainer qualified. She's LLB, she worked at a practise as a solicitor and she went, I don't want to be doing this every day, I want to be a personal trainer. And she gave all that up. But that takes a huge amount of bravery or confidence or resilience to just chuck it all in.

It does. But it's also knowing. And I know in the back of the mind, although she's gone forward to become a personal trainer, she's also got that safety net to fall back on, determining should it not have work. And not only that, with those skills of being a lawyer, oh, my goodness, you can work in businesses just doing the legal side of things. You don't have to go back into a practise the way that you do. But the fact that she woke up one morning and had that dream and that burning desire, that is where I usually start with individuals, because I'll say to them, what's your dream? What is your passion? What is it that you really want to do? Because if you've just checked, if you've suddenly had the door shut in one area, why not take this opportunity to say, you know something, I'll start again. And you can start again, but you're never starting at zero because of all those years. And as I said, the experience and skills that you've acquired, you can use them, but people feel they have to start at zero.

And I'm thinking, no, we can use x from what you did before. We can use y from another area that you've worked in and put it all together along with your personality and your passion. It can open up doors.

You mentioned the cost of living, cris as well. And where we are now with mortgage rates, with cost of living, we're in a situation where most households need two incomes in order to survive. Not saying thrive, survive. Budgets are really tight. It must be a tough act to risk one person's income. If you like to start again, it.

Is, but then it's going back. As I said, if you come to a point in your life where you haven't got a job to go to, then, as I said, it's looking at some of the soft skills, like, for example, painting and decorating, making cakes, doing things that people want and need. So you've got to find that gap, you've got to find where the demand is. Once you've identified that, things can be very, I won't say very easy, but a lot easier. For example, take a painting and decorating. I'm not a painter or a decorator, in no way, shape or form, but if somebody knocked on my door because I know that I need walls painting and stuff, I'll say to them, yeah, let's have a conversation. Or if somebody's referred to me, most probably that's a better way for me to go. And they sat down with me and they said, well, actually, you want your walls painting, tell me the colour, I'll show you, get you some examples, et cetera, et cetera.

They go away, do all the research, bring the colours in, sit down with me, I start matching it up at the wall and I say, okay, that's what I want. They can ask me for a deposit there and then that deposit can buy all the materials. They go buy the materials, they come paint my wall, I pay them the balance. To me, that's a win win. You don't have to keep running to the bank to get money. You start with what you have, but then you also enter in a contractual agreement that's realistic, because people do expect to pay a deposit for what they do and then pay the balance at the end. So why not start small and then build it up gradually?

It's interesting, you use that example of a painter decorator, a good friend of mine who I met maybe eight or nine years ago, she was a special speaker. She used to work in money management and we're really good friends. And then one day I noticed on LinkedIn, she changed her profile, changed everything else. She left her husband, got divorced, set up in her own house. She'd retrained as a painter and decorator, and now she specialises in being a female painter and decorator in her 50s who targets specifically women who want another woman to come and do their painted decorator. Because that trust element about coming into someone's house and we think about the number of women who live on their own who've, at the age of 40 or 50, they've left their husband. They've had enough of that. Maybe they're widowed early or maybe they've never got married and they want somebody who they can trust in their home.

Correct. And she's ideally placed for that?

Yeah, definitely. I've got a client that I'm working on. Well, she does painting, decorating. She's a carpenter as well, and electrician. So I think it's exciting that there are women coming up with those skills because, as you said, from the safety element and also the confidence, having somebody in your home and you know they're going to tell you the truth, they're not going to just say, oh, you have this knowing that it's more expensive than something else.

You know what I mean? I've never used her services as a patient decorator. I felt no problem at all recommending her to my mum and my mum had her in to redecorate her bedroom and there was no qualms at all. It was a kind of me. Anne. Anne is fabulous. I've known her for years. She will do a superb job and she did. And my mum is so happy with it and she's like, my mum paid her a deposit.

There's no risk about someone doing a runner with the money or asking for more money later that you sometimes get.

I like those kind of business ideas because, how can I say? Women understand women. But that's just how we are. We understand that sometimes things can be tight, we understand that things can be difficult and we will make allowances for that. Do you know what I mean? Not only that, even when the person's working, you know, we're going to sit down and have a conversation. It's not just about the job and off you go. It's about building that relationship as well. So that's what I like doing what I do, because at the end of the day, I have all these friends I never had before.

You're so right. My mum, she knows more about Anne than I do now for two weeks. I mean, I know Anne really well. She's had conversations and she can't wait to get Anne back to paint her other bedroom and the hallway in the lounge at some point. So it becomes a friend. It's more than just a trusted.

But one of the areas, though, people can actually forget, is that they're running a business. So you may get somebody who's going to try and push you to say, well, actually, can you do it a bit cheaper? Yeah, you can. But it's whether or not you've done the math. And you've got to understand finance, be able to know how much leeway, you've got to be able to make a discount in what you're doing, because you could quite easily forget and lose that focus that it's a business and not that you're helping somebody out or you're doing them a favour. Do you know what I mean?

You're so right.

Yeah. Maintain them.

There's a big difference when you've worked for somebody else for many, many years, or you've never had to be responsible for your own sales, marketing, profit and loss, advertising, everything else. People feed you, work, you get paid, you come in. It's a completely different mindset being a solopreneur or a small business generating revenue which needs to be profit, which means to pay your bills, doesn't it?

Yeah, and I think, again, that's where I come in, if you know what I mean. Because at the end of the day, my job is to ensure that I equip them with the business side, that they understand it. So I put together an eight week business startup course and also an eight week business course to enable women to understand the basics of business. And even if you're running a business for a few years and you've got to make that change sometimes it's knowing how to make that change, but staying within the law, making sure that you don't drop anything that's important, but that you're still building at the same time. So me either working alongside you on a one to one basis or one to many in a course, I always feel that it's important that you at least go through it so you understand even some of the changes that have happened in legislation, because at the end of the day, once I've left you, and even if you start up like a limited company, don't forget, you've got to make sure that you're up to date with your confirmation statement, that you pay your taxes, that HMRC is your friend, you're paying your corporation tax as well. So we can't neglect any of that just because you enjoy doing what you.

Yeah, you've got your public liability, you've got your professional indemnity, you've got your health and safety requirements. If you're climbing ladders, working at height safety, if you're in someone else's property, you've got to be careful there of trip hazards and all those various things.

Yeah, exactly.

It's your business compliance and also your financial compliance, your tax, everything else, isn't it? Yeah.

And it's also known the difference that once that money comes in, it's business money. It's for the business. You can take out that proportion to live on, but you've got to make sure that you do a robust cash flow, because when you think money is not going to come in, and it does come in, that's great. But when money doesn't come in, when you think it's going to come in, you've got to have a contingency plan in place.

Yeah. I've met a number of people who are probably not confident on the process of taking credit cards, and it sounds complicated, but with a bit of basic knowledge of setting up a stripe account, or even most banks offer merchant accounts these days, knowing that you're going to have a credit card transaction fee, that you've got to build into your profit margins as well. And those considerations, and you don't always get paid out the same day. Sometimes there's a two week lead time and things like this. So it's all those little things you don't know about until you get into it and start running the business, is it?

Yeah. And also it can be a bit overwhelming to suddenly say, oh, my goodness, I've got to pay extra on this. Why? But if you're in a group of, a group of women, we're going to discuss it. Somebody would have hopefully have gone through that experience. If not, I would be able to tell them. And it actually makes people a lot more relaxed to know, you know something, it's doable, I can do this, but it's all about the planning. You've got to be able to plan. Not everybody's an administrator, and I get that, but if you can take the time out, say, every quarter, to just assess and reassess everything you've done previously and then set yourself up for the coming three months, you'll find that you won't go so badly wrong.

Do you know what I mean? You will stay on track. And not only that, being a part of a group for at least eight weeks, it's like being accountable to someone. Yeah.

One thing I found since setting up this business in this part of my life is that I found my female network is far more supportive than I ever had in the past. And I find my female network are more collaborative, they're less competitive, they're more willing to share, they're more willing to be open. And there's a general sense that you want each other to succeed. Yeah, maybe in my previous life it was a bit more competitive and dog eat dog. Now, I'm a member of many female entrepreneurs networks, and it's caring and sharing.

That's it, definitely. And I think also, like I said, we like to share. We can always go for coffee, always go for lunch. That's what we've always done. But you'll actually have a tight network to be able to share. And also, if you're not in the same, actually, it could actually work even if you're in the same area sector. Do you know what I mean? Working together, you've got a problem. Somebody's always there to help you.

Because we like solving problems as a woman, that's what we do. Because I remember raising my son, we always solve problems. And also, one thing that a lot of people don't do, and I have always tried to encourage this, is get their children involved. Get their children involved in what they do, especially from a creative side, because they still have that creativity approach to life. They get excited. They love to do things in a different way. So why not listen to your children? When my son was ten, I actually taught him how to do my bookkeeping. A lot of people know that.

I always talk about this story. Now he's 28 and he's quite mature. Finance is not a problem for him. He deals with finance like we most probably go and buy shoes, do you know what I mean? But he's done the calculations. He feels confident with figures. But if you can imagine having children around there trying to design your logo and saying, oh, mom, that doesn't look white, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? Et cetera. Not only that, children have got their own network. And, you know, when children got their network, the mothers become part of that network as well.

A great, ideal way to actually market your business.

I find I've got to be careful. My daughter sometimes, I mean, my daughter's what, 31 now? And she works in early years nursery, sort of preschool. She's a deputy manager at a preschool nursery in West Sussex. And I've got to be careful because I keep trying to persuade her to become entrepreneurial and get out of the corporate life and start her own early years training business. Or I can help you. And I've got to be really careful sometimes that I'm not overly entrepreneurial and pushing someone out their comfort zone. I want to be kind of a magnet if they're interested, but not a push or a pull.

I think it's to allow her to have to, say, run her race, do her career at her pace. And what she wants to do, but at the same time keep planting the seeds every now and again to say there's also an alternative, because one day she may just get fed up and she says, I need to do something different. But knowing that you're behind and you're watching that you can then make the possession to maybe ready then.

Her husband's an accountant in practise. He works for a firm adjusted accountant practise. So she's got kind of a good solid financial footing as well as a kind of an entrepreneurial footing.

Yeah, she's got the.

My wife worked for a company for a long time and it was one of those companies where it was an engineering, even though it was a small. They were part of Itachi, but they were a small subsidiary that was kind of independent. Just the ownership was there and it was engineering. It was very male orientated. So the people that had value were men. The women tend to be the admin or the less important, and they got a box of chocolates at Christmas. The men went to the racing or went to see cricket or something. In a typical kind of male female divide the value and the worst.

And she found herself not. I don't want to be too cruel, but she found herself being treated badly. Lack of respect, lack of value, just pushed down and I kept saying to her, look, come and work with me, come and work with me, we can figure this out, we figure this out. But she wanted her independence, that was her money, that was her role. And again, whilst she had a fear of getting it going wrong, but she also wanted that independent life where it was her job, her role, and that was nothing. I was very cautious. Creating the gravitational pull without pushing and being overly. Kind of fine line, isn't it? Between.

It is very fine, but occasionally you could pass something her way for her to do that. She could actually see, well, actually I could do this independently and perhaps I could be the administrator for a lot of small businesses, do you know what I mean? So it's kind of pulling her out of that environment, but at the same time showing her that she has got the skills and the independence and the knowledge to do something for herself, but at the same time still help you in your business.

As it happened again post Covid, her elderly parents, her mum needed more caring. She tried to go part time, reduce her hours by one day a week. The organisation said, write us a business case. It's like she says, I don't want to write a business case, I just want you to listen to me. Sit down, have a conversation with me about what's going on in my life and help me. And then something happened. And then she effectively did a constructive dismissal, walked out and said, I can't take this anymore. And a week later, she started working with me.

So in the end, she had that power to say, I don't need you anymore. I'm out. You can't treat me like this. I can go somewhere where someone will value me. I created an environment where she knew she had safety without pushing her into it, if you like.

Yeah, no, it's good. And it's just nice to know that people have got that, how can I say that, connection. They're not just got the one option and that they can think differently and they can do things. Do, you know, creative things going forward.

I've got to ask you something. I noticed when you sent some show notes ahead, you said you were a jazz dancer and you learned to express yourself through movement. I'd love to explore that, if you don't mind.

Well, I started dancing from the age of four. Mum told me this and my cousin, who was like my best friend, she's a year older than me, she went to school, so I thought I was going to school by going to dancing school. So I actually spent a lot of time dancing in the midlands. I did ballet, jazz and tap. I won a lot of trophies and medals over the years. At the age of 17, I became a teacher. So I used to do little keep fit classes every now and again. And then, by doing cabarets and shows, I found that I could express myself so much more through movement.

It was at that time that I used to stammer quite a lot. So it was very difficult for me to stand up and read or stand up and express myself openly. But you put me on a stage, even at school, they'd play a record and that was, you know, Elsa's dancing. And they used to know me as a dancer, do you know what I mean? Because I used to work, as I said, did cabaret shows, did annual pantomimes with the stage school that I was going to, as well, managed to travel through Europe as well, doing that. But then I realised that is not going to take me very far, especially in those days, so I had to think again. So decided to use the creativity or the creative side of that to then become an arts officer. And that was what brought me to London. Yeah.

And from there, you worked in this role and then how did you become an entrepreneur? What got you out of working for somebody else?

Yeah, I was working as an arts officer for a local council. And I had a very good manager who suggested that I went back to college, but they wanted me to do leisure because they wanted to keep me in the leisure industry. But I decided, I sat down, I thought, well, actually, what's a couple of things that I could do or one thing that I could do, should I get married and want to settle down and then have life after a child or children? And I thought, well, business runs throughout, no matter what. So I was fortunate that I went back to college, studied, got my qualification and the same year, I mean, I finished my qualification in July, September, I was headhunted to work for the prince's youth business trust. It's now called the Prince's Trust, but it was a prince's youth business trust. The fact that I was headhunted, that was even better. That opened up my life in so many ways. And from there it was like sleeves up and I just dived in.

And I can say that that was what really got me into this world of business and entrepreneurial style of living. Yeah.

Have you experienced a tougher journey as a woman and doubly as a black woman? Or has that been the superpower?

You know something jar in life when you suddenly wake up, when I say wake up, you're doing things, but you're doing it. Because I have a mother that is very ambitious and very supportive, who never saw colour, but always ensured that she ingrained in us to do better than we could ever do but keep striving. I suppose it's for perfection. So whenever I used to dance, it was like, don't forget, you're a dancer, you're a good dancer. You go out there and you do your best and you hear those words and you think, well, okay, I'll do them. And that's all I did for a number of years before I realised, actually, you know something, there are a lot of things against me, do you know what I mean? But I seem to be pushing hard. But I was pushing thinking that, well, my mom's behind me, she's telling me, I've got to do this and I'll do it. Until one day somebody tells you straight in your face that actually you're not wanted here, we don't need you.

And you think, well, hang on, I'm good at this, I'm good at that, what's the issue? And then you realise, you know something, wow. I didn't think colour would be a major setback or could be a setback in life, but as I said, and when we spoke earlier, my mom is 92. She's 93 next year and next week. No, not actually next year, next week. And every time I feel that I need to speak to somebody and I need to actually be pushed forward, I go to my mother now. She's a lady that came here in the trained as a psychiatric nurse. She only ever had one job with seven children. She raised us all.

Do you see what I mean? And I'll say to you that we're all ambitious, we've all got our lane that we work in and we've all got children and grandchildren, et cetera. But she's our rock. And I'll say that she never saw colour, even though it was there.

She raised seven children, she held down a job, she kept a family together. She was the matriarch of your siblings and your family. I'm not surprised. She's one heck of a woman, isn't she?

Yes, she is. Yeah. That's why we'll make sure we go and spend Christmas with her every year, because not that we don't see her during the year, but it's just so important that we all have. Think back to where we were when we were younger and we have a laugh and a joke. We're a very tight family, very supportive to one another. Not everybody has that, unfortunately. But unfortunately, that's what's kept me straight, that's what's driven me. Even when I look at things like opportunities that I've had working with the small business council, with government, advising secretaries of state and trade and industry about business.

Don't ask me how I got there. I cannot pinpoint and say to you, well, actually, I knew this person. No, it didn't work like that. It was a whole application process, do you know what I mean? It was tough to get in there, but when I got in there, it was like. It opened my eyes to a lot of things of which I use now to help people to move forward, because people, it was either government or for the government, whichever, but I just saw how it worked. I went in there to understand how it worked, to give my advice where I felt that I needed to, along with 22 other people. And if it meant that we made a difference, then that was great. And I could see how making a difference actually trickled down to the everyday person.

So I thought, well, if I've done it on that level, I can do it on this level. And that's why I love it. And I've got that passion for helping people all the time because I know that change is what some people just need. And in some cases, it's only a small change. It doesn't have to be nothing major, but it will definitely have an impact on your life.

Yeah, change could be scary. It also be very empowering, aren't it? And if you let change hold you back, you can always be looking over the fence wishing, can't you?

Yeah, definitely. And I always said that I was born in the era of change. Nothing stands still for long. Everything's changing when you experience what's happened in a few know. And I think when the Berlin wolf came down, I was like, oh, my goodness, that was just the beginning of Nelson Mandela being released, you know what I mean? Seeing the coronation from queen to king, it's like we're living in an era where things have just constantly changed.

Sorry, yeah. I won't ask you your age, but I was born in the mid 60s. My father was in the navy. He did 22 years in the navy. And then when he left the navy, went to teacher training college and became a woodwork technical drawing teacher in secondary school. And my mum was a house mum. She stayed at home with myself and my two brothers until we had left home in our 20s. So she was in her late 40s before she went to teacher training college and became a primary school teacher.

And they lived in the same house. So for me, my parents were sort of the rock of stability, the rock of no change, probably like you, I've been like a pinball, bouncing off the cushions, doing lots of different things in my life.

Yeah.

Making mistakes, failing, picking myself up, trying something else, crashing and burning again. I've got quite used to not knowing what I'm doing tomorrow or not worrying about it. But my parents are very much. They want to see things mapped out. And I think my brother's a bit more mapped out. He's never had that sort of randomness, so it's tough if you come from that stable environment. It is, yeah.

But as I said, it is about change. So we adapt, we change, we listen, we move forward. But I'll notice that this generation coming up now, oh, my goodness, they've taken us to another level. Microwave. I keep saying it's so quick and so fast that, yeah, you can keep up. And I speak to my son quite a lot and he says, mom, you are really techie. And I'm thinking, I'm not compared to some people. But I do make sure that I keep abreast of what's happening on the technical side, because if we lose that, you're kind of going backwards.

Yeah. Because you got new kids on the block coming on all the time. And I feel the need to be pretty savvy technically. I mean, my background is it. So it's in me anyway to keep abreast, but AI and learning about software tools and web design and graphic design. I kind of do everything in my business, or at least have an opinion on everything. I do outsource some stuff, but I like to dabble.

I understand. Yeah. And I think it's good and exciting that we do. Also. It keeps our minds in tip top condition as well. Do you know what I mean? And we see life so differently. The fact that we can actually do business, actually communicate with people from all over the world at the same time, I think it's fantastic.

Yeah.

As opposed to just staying in your lane, so to speak.

Isn't that also the challenge, going back to the advice you give to your coaches, if that's the word. It's not just about being a great technician or a great professional. It's also the other stuff people have to learn. It's just sales and marketing that sometimes that can be the hardest thing to learn, isn't it?

It is, yeah. Because you're going to be doing things that you perhaps had colleagues doing for you. As you said, the sales is one thing, the marketing is another. It's being a financier, it's being a planner. But you know something? If you sit down with people, they have touched on certain elements of it. They may not have a lot of knowledge about it, but if you can say to them just talking to people or going for a coffee with somebody and just telling them what you do or finding out what they need and you meet that need, that's really all you need to do. You just need to be yourself. You don't have to be that hard salesperson.

I've never sold anything in my life and I don't like marketing. Okay. I'm on LinkedIn and I've got my little blogs going there and then, but that's not me. I mean, I do that because I have to, but I find that my engagement with people is more important and that's where I help solve the problem. So it's finding a niche. Yeah.

Because people often use this term jack of all, trace, master of none. But that's only half the quote. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but the second half of the quote is better than a master of one. So what it's really saying is being a backjack of all trades is better than being a master of none. It's better than being a master of one. So being a one trick pony isn't the solution. It's having a broad in business. To run a business, you got to have broad skills across a whole range of acumens, haven't you?

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's not until you actually embark on running the business or go into that area of business that you realise you know something. You've got more than what you think you have. It's just that perhaps you've done it years ago and you've put it to bed and you think, I'll work on something new. But then as soon as you run that business, what you did in the past all of a sudden becomes relevant. I'm always spending time digging into people's skills and knowledge and experiences and say, well, surely you've done something similar. Can we build on something that you've done in the past? And then when they get it, they go, oh, yeah, of course. I buy my shopping on a weekly basis.

I'm quite happy to sit down and make a shopping list. And I'm quite happy to say, well, I've got x amount of money for my shopping. And I'm thinking, well, that's basically what we're talking about with business as well. It's just that you just take your time, you stop and you actually spend the time doing the numbers.

Yeah. Without going back to the unprecedented times of COVID and things like that, we're both professional speakers and we're both member of the professional speaking association, and we go back to the COVID times when March 24, whatever it was, March 23 at Monday morning, when Boris came on the telly and said, thou shalt stay at home. Everyone except for me. Of course, he could do what he likes, but everybody has to stay at home. Many of our professional speaking colleagues, their living was earned by standing up in front of people either as a trainer, a coach, consultant, or a keynote speaker on stage somewhere. And our market disappeared overnight.

Yes, it did. In some cases, I was fortunate because I've never been a full time speaker. I used to use Skype before. I used Zoom. So I used to work from home occasionally with clients. But I think there's some people within our network that was quite willing to grasp the change and take on technology and do things different. But unfortunately, there were some that wanted to keep things the way that they were and were waiting until everything was opened again and then they'll restart. But I was pleased that the first conference that we had during COVID how many people did embrace the change and how many people came forward and that would actually sharing their skills and knowledge.

I thought that was fantastic because I actually joined the PSA. I think it was the August just before COVID so it'd have been 2019. So I literally just got in. So when it all happened changed, I was like, oh, my goodness, look at these people. They're giving everybody so much. I felt a lot of people gave a lot of themselves and they shared so much. And that's when I saw the PSA come together and that's what I liked about the PSA. It's like you were helping each other without realising you were helping each other.

You're making sure that everybody was looked know. I really commend the PSA for.

Yeah, we did come together as a community and there was a lot of people sort of leading the way on remote speaking techniques and technical solutions. I was part of some of those technical conversations and I think one of the reasons I got involved with it was I wanted a purpose and be able to share back to the community. Gave me a purpose. It gave me a reason to get up. It gave me a reason to have conversations with people, whereas I could have sat there doom and gloom, but, yeah, it gave me a purpose. It was very symbiotic, whilst it was altruistic. Also, I got a lot out of the help I gave.

Yeah. And not only that, we got to know each other. And what was nice is that everybody from different parts of the country, yet we met up and we talked and we continued, as I say, that I don't even know, not how I would have survived, because I was fortunate. I actually got a contract in the march, just literally days before the lockdown. And I was working with clients, as I say, through Skype, before I got to understand zoom. So I was fortunate. I had that income coming in all the time. But I think for me, my highlight was the PSA.

Do you know what mean?

Yeah.

Doing those virtual meetings.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, certainly for me. You say you met people around the country. I met people over the world, okay. I was helping people in Hawaii, Australia, far East, Middle east, helping them set their zooms up and set their cameras up and doing this sort of stuff. And I was having some amazing conversations with people who were. And I don't mean to be cruel to anybody, they were technically out of their depth. They were desperate for someone to help.

And I felt immense because my it background, I fell into it as a kind of. I guess when the cris hits, everyone falls back to their core skills, don't they?

There you go.

And that's kind of what it was. And I felt that was my contribution to the world, was using my core skills and experience to help others. In the absence of any other income, we might as well help each other.

I mean, the income is either there or it starts coming in, but then you can build on it. But it's nice to know, as you said, you went back to your core skills.

I got a lot out of it as well, in those sort of terms where if you're not used to presenting and delivering online, it's a skill you have to learn as well. But I suppose because I was talking to people online all the time, helping them, I was building up my own online skills.

There you go.

How to speak, how to get the lighting right, how to get your camera right. So, yeah, I think helping others helped me. It was kind of a yes.

As you said, once you've got that area that you're good at, you do use it to help others and you're always happy. You're not always the person that's always thinking negative in any way. So, yeah, I always think of the. I know Covid was a setback for a lot of people, but for me it was definitely a positive time.

Definitely was, yeah, I was definitely one of the winners. I came out of it with a far stronger business than I went into it with because I embraced the change that was occurring in the world. It was right place, right time. Yeah, that's good.

And it's also helped me to develop, as I say, two programmes that I do at the moment, but now I have one online and one that we do face to face, which is, I've always done things face to face. So, yeah, I got something that's quite positive out of it as well.

Are you seeing a change in the people you're coaching in terms of the challenges they're facing, or is it really just the same challenges, different person, different year sort of thing, or are there new challenges developing?

I'm seeing a lot of the same because I've managed to get a really good, lucrative contract at the moment, of which I'm working with groups of 20 women. I've just finished one group of which was all about entrepreneurs, just taking their ideas from where they are and taking it to the next level, and that's worked really well. And now I'm on the second cohort of 20 women, but these are focusing on nonprofit organisations, so they want to set up the community interest company. They want to set up a little community interest organisation, which is like a mini charity. So these are the nonprofit individuals. And what's interesting is they've got this great ambition to actually create something, but I always feel as if they don't think they're worthy or they can actually do something. But now that they're beginning to see what they can create, it's just interesting how they're now thinking of growth and thinking of others, which in some businesses is all about yourself and surviving. But these ones that are doing nonprofit stroke charitable businesses, it's about embracing those that are less fortunate than themselves.

How can they bring them on board to help them in what they're doing? So it's just interesting how I suppose people are becoming more caring. I think maybe it's just because I'm working with these nonprofit organisations, whereas I don't normally see that in those that are looking and actually trying to build a small business for shares and profit, et cetera. But I'd say that everybody seems to still have the same issues and same problems.

Do you find that some of your clients are embarrassed to want to make a profit? Is there a kind of a CIC route allows people to do it ethically, therefore there's no guilt about making money? Is that barrier?

Yeah, I'd say so. And also when you start talking about profit, it's like, oh my goodness, you're greedy. No, I'm not greedy. That's what businesses is about, do you know what I mean? It's like we're not supposed to talk about profit, and that's on both sides of the fence. But the reality is, why are you in business in the first place if it's not to make a profit? Okay, if you want to go the nonprofit organisation, I always try and encourage them to do both, because one can help the other, depending on what the ideas are. But don't not build a business and run it like a hobby, because that does not make any sense whatsoever. You end up having more problems because then you end up owing the tax man, you end up owing people, and that's not what business is about. To do business ethically, you've got to think about making a profit to make sure that all your bills are paid, everything's done on time, legally and openly.

And from a sound governance perspective, if you're not generating a surplus and reserves, then you're not prepared for downturns, events, sickness, unable to work, whatever it may be. So you have to have a surplus of revenue, which is for you to reinvest in yourself at a later date when you need it.

Definitely. And also if you're running a business because you want to retire in a nice way, not that you ever retired from your business if you don't want to. Yeah, you've got to think ahead, you've got to plan ahead. And it's all about making that extra money. As I said, it's not that you want to. Some people go around the world, some people buy fancy cars and everything else, but in reality, episodes is all about growth. It's all about thinking ahead of times. You've got your short term, your medium and your long term.

And if you're not thinking long term, then what are you doing?

Yeah, if you're employed, you're happy to knock on your manager's door and ask for a pay rise. That's kind of increasing profit, isn't it?

Yeah, there is that. But then how long is the company going to be around for?

Yeah, or you work all the hours for the organisation that employs you, generating them profit without taking the revenue share yourself. And that's the other thing. You become slaves, the corporate machine, don't you?

Yeah, it's interesting, but, yeah, I just like the fact when people say that, you know something, there's more to life than what I'm currently doing and I actually want to stop and do something differently, that's when I jump in, I go, right, okay, let's have a conversation. I get excited and then when they start seeing what the possibilities are, their whole mindset begins to change, which is great.

Yeah. And just breaking it down into how much you need to live on.

Yeah.

So what do you need to achieve?

That's it, the person work out your.

Pricing strategy, you work out your units of measure and say, okay, if I do three of those a month, I can be quite happy on that pricing structure, actually. That's quite easy, isn't it? The right steps, isn't it?

Yeah. And also as you're getting older, you don't have as many as energy running around, so you got to think of living life in a different way. So to me, I always think this is the answer.

Yeah, I completely agree. And one thing I would say as a solopreneur is being self employed, you work when you want to, but the flip side of that is you also have to work when you don't want to. You have both things. You still are dependent on a client, someone paying the bills somewhere. Whilst you do have a very positive work life balance, clients when you think I really could do without this, but the buck stops with me, I've got to go and do it.

Yeah, there is that. But then again it's a planning. For example, okay, Christmas, we know we can take days off and we just add those extra days and that's what we do. Take those extra days off knowing that we need to refocus and plan and everything for the coming year. But we don't have to ask permission.

No. In fact, many of the people I know, self employed, disabled, well, I'm not going to work after the 15 December until the 7 January. It's like I don't work, sorry, bye. I think later. Go away. I work on a ten month year, I don't really work. August, I don't really work for half of December and I don't really work for half of January. There you go.

Not because I necessarily don't want to, but most of my clients don't work. It's a pointless exercise for me. So I take the opportunity to take those one month and two half months off knowing full well there's, there could be no revenue.

Well.

There'S no income this month. Okay. I wasn't planning on any income this month. It's fine.

Okay. That's interesting because what I tend to do is double up on the clients beforehand, knowing that I'm going to have a break so that the income is still the same. It's just that I worked a bit harder just before the break. Do you see? So I know that at the end of the month, yeah, the invoices are going to come in, but I still have a nice little rest in between.

I'm just making sure I'm generating surplus every month throughout the year and knowing that I've got a pipeline that's active and going to drop early in the new year. So I know that I can take my foot off the pedal knowing that I can pick it up a bit later on, things are going to drop.

But then there's an experienced business person, which is nice and it's great to hear, but it's when people don't do things like that, does that mean they spend as they go along thinking that tomorrow is definitely going to be at the same level, which is not always the case.

I'm not saying it's an easy journey. I'm not saying that I've got my act together completely. A lot of it came from experience. So I suddenly, look, yeah, okay, I've panicked, I've worried, I've pulled things together. That was tight and then gone. Okay, next year I'm going to plan for this being the situation, because now I know the reality. And then it's learning the lessons quickly, isn't it? Failing fast, quickly.

But as you said, it's all in the planning.

Yeah. And pricing yourself right in the first place so that you are making surplus and you are the reserves at a healthy level so that you know you can ride those months out.

Yeah. So cash flow is key. I always encourage people to do cash flows. Yeah. But I tend to do them on a personal and a business level because I like to see on what angle everything's coming in and going out. So maybe I go over the top, but it works.

Yeah, I agree with you completely around the personal side as well, because if you've got personal cash flow issues, that will inevitably impact your business cash flow as well, because you end up having to draw too much or you haven't got stability in the personal level. So you can't go into starting a new business if you've got personal cash flow issues.

No, exactly. Yeah. And it's to make people realise that when's the best time to actually start the business. Do you know what I mean? In relation to how many clients you've got? Does that mean. Because if you can't start it properly, why are you starting it at all?

Yeah. And today you look at a lot of you mentioned younger people earlier, gig working. You've got many young people have got multiple gigs going on YouTube channels, monetizing this cottage industry from home. So there's opportunities to do parallel tasks these days, isn't?

Yeah, the opportunities are out there. I think people have just got to just grasp them and keep focusing. Yeah.

It's been fascinating talking to you, Elsa. Absolutely fantastic. It's great listening to your experience as an entrepreneur yourself and also working with other entrepreneurs and getting them out the starting gate and setting them on the right path. Really fascinating. How do people get hold of you?

Well, Joanna, I've got my LinkedIn, which is my name, Elsa. Caleb. So you can always find me on LinkedIn. You can also my email is my name elsa@elsacaleb.com. And yeah, I'm out there. Know Instagram, not very highly, but put my name in my website, Elsacaleb Co. Uk. Yeah.

Usually the best channels to get me on.

And just for anyone listening, Elsa is E-L-S-A as in frozen, I presume. And Caleb C-A-L-E-B.

Yeah, I had it first. You had it first name first.

You are.

It's been a pleasure just to be able to talk about what I do, because I don't always find the opportunity to do that. But it's just knowing that people, at the end of the day, can actually put food on the table. So that's what I'm about. I like to ensure that they have food on the table and they can actually be happy in what they do. Yeah.

And believe, because a lot of it is lack of belief, isn't it? I think people start to believe they can. Thank you.

Brilliant.

And thank you to you, the listeners, for you, the listener, for getting this far. I really appreciate it. Thank you for tuning in. If you want to keep updated on future episodes, please do subscribe. If you're not already, just search for inclusion Bites podcast B-I-T-E-S either on Google, Spotify, iTunes or the usual platforms. Please tell your friends, please tell your colleagues. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up and this is episode 97.

It's not long to episode 100, which will be out in the next couple of weeks. If you'd like to be a guest, let me know. And any suggestions, please email me to jo.lockwood@seeechangehapen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. This has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.

Bye.