Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in, Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So just your earbuds and settle in.

It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 112 with the title dancing with vitality. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Celynn Morin. Celynn is an holistic well-being advocate for the workplace. That's easy for me to say. And when I asked Celynn to describe her superpower, she said that she helps enrich the quality of people's lives through holistic and practical workplace based well-being training and inspiration. Hello, Celynn. Welcome to the show.

Hi, Joanne, and to all the listeners. It's really, really a pleasure to be here.

Fabulous. I struggled a bit with the intro there. I don't know what my brain's doing today, but anyway, it's great to have you here. So Celynn, Dancing with Vitality, tell us a bit about your mission and where you've come from.

Well, I guess I can tie that into the introduction because, like, you've just authentically shared, how we are is how we are regardless of where we are. So our mental health or how we're thinking and processing things, some days we can have lots of energy, some days not. And in the past, it's almost like we expected the workplace to be purely professional, and anything that was happening in our personal space wasn't there. But, of course, we know that that's changed. And with the pandemic and developments in workplace well-being and the trends around stress and burnout, it's really wonderful to see how now everyone understands how important it is to look at holistic well-being, even if it is a mouthful. So I always knew I wanted to be a healer of some kind. I thought I wanted to be a doctor or a pharmacist. But when I was looking into what I could study, I discovered something called dietetics, which was a degree with doctors and other health practitioners that focused on food and nutrition.

And I thought, you know what? My love of food because of being French, so my entire family are French. I was born in South Africa because my parents went there, and they ended up spending 53 years there. They're now back in France. But the idea of linking food and nutrition to health and well-being and vitality, I just knew that was what I wanted to do, so I studied to be a dietitian. And after 5 years in clinical practice, I had an opportunity to work with a workplace insurer, and that was way back in 2006 where I started doing workplace well-being initiatives. And so my ideal day is when I'm with a group of leaders or any high performing team and speaking about how they can better manage stress, increase resilience, manage their head, heart, and gut so that they they do enrich the quality of their lives.

That's fascinating. I I think you need you need to expand a bit more how your diet can impact your overall well-being, but not only that, but also your stress levels. I'm really intrigued to find out about how this this link between intake of food and stress. How how does that play out? Tell me more.

Well, I guess the most important link, there are multiple ones, but the most important one would be the fact that our gut is so much more than just this tube that Diversity what we decide to put into our mouths and chew and swallow. Everything that we eat will affect the gut and specifically the gut microbiome, which is this universe of bacteria and viruses and all kinds of organisms without which we can't survive. They're incredibly important for helping us manage stress because they help us with our mental health and many other things, immunity, digesting foods, hormone regulation, detoxification, producing vitamins and minerals. Yeah. So everything you eat has the ability to either upregulate your gut, which means it's going to help you better manage stress, or potentially it's gonna add to the level of stress because it might produce compounds that can then switch on what we call inflammation, and that can drive more stress within the body. So I would say the main link there is through the gut. Everything's connected when it comes to the body, how we think, how we feel, how we move, how we breathe, which is good news because it means you can take various routes to helping your well-being. There's no one size fits all or one solution for everybody.

And we're also unique. The more I do this work, the more I realize how we each need a unique individual approach to enhancing our well-being.

What what sort of foods have an impact in that way? I I appreciate it's a bit of a generalist sub yeah. What I've just said is a bit generalization, but are those foods that specifically help calm us and some foods that will maybe cause us more stress? Or is it down to the impact of digestion of that food and how it impacts the as you talk about the the the the culture of all the microorganisms and things in our gut. Is it how that interaction occurs that causes the the changes in our body?

Yeah. So context is everything. Right? So depending on age and activity levels and medication and your exposure to stress and even your emotional state can affect how a meal is digested. You know, if you eat a particular type of food while you're feeling highly stressed or very angry, it's going to digest differently to if you ate that same meal when you were completely calm and relaxed and serene. You know? So, yeah, it's I wanna say it's a complex picture, but there are some fundamental guidelines. So for instance, the research shows that eating more plant based foods generally is good for us. A lot of us don't eat enough plant based foods. We have a lot of processed refined foods, high sugar, high flour, a lot of animal products.

But if we make a point to include what I call it eating like an artist, so having a lot of color from nature, that can help you paint better health because we know that if you eat the more of a variety of foods that you eat, the more of a variety of microbiome you Happen, and the more exposure you get to all the vitamins, all the minerals, all the antioxidants, and the chemicals that can do good.

Bites I know, but I'm stressed or focused or really got my head down. I I lose my appetite. Is that is that all part of it? Because because my brain is so busy thinking about stuff. It's not thinking about being hungry.

Yeah. That that's part of the stress response for some of us when we're feeling particularly perhaps not stressed, but focused on something. It's not important for your digestive system to digest your breakfast if you've got a clear outcome and your mind has now decided you've got to finish that article or record that podcast or, you know, work through the client list. And so a lot of the blood will then move away from the internal organs, the digestive system towards the brain. However, some of us may find that we have an increased appetite, especially for sugary foods, because when we are feeling stressed, we release more cortisol and glycogen and glucose into the blood, and so you can then crave sweet things, which is why when people are stressed, they often say, I have to eat more cake or I really feel like alcohol or I need stimulants. And so we can get end up being caught in that spiral where it can be quite difficult to break it. I mean, if all this stuff was easy, right, Joanne, we would all be doing it. We would be healthier, happier, fitter, and I wouldn't have a job.

So it's not that simple. Even if we know everything we need to do, a lot of what I talk about is the psychology of behavior change and understanding neuroscience and also understanding our psychological makeup. Like, different personality types have different habits, and and I don't think we give consideration to our uniqueness enough when it comes to well-being.

Yeah. So I'd say that I think yeah. Because we have this sort of concept of comfort eating, don't we? We as as you see, when we're feeling sad, upset, stressed, whatever it may be, we turn to something generally Safety, and, you know, the chocolates go out, whatever it may be, or the glass of Bites, potentially. And that's all about the brain chemicals, the pleasure sensors, and things. So we're we're rewarding ourselves, aren't we, effectively, by by boosting our brain to to think in a happier way. And we, I guess, that becomes kind of addictive or or or a cycle that we can't break out of because we associate eating this with feeling better. Therefore, if we're not feeling great, we want to eat something to feel Bites. That that's kind of the the addiction cycle of the sugars and chocolates and stuff, isn't it?

Absolutely. And it gets so reinforced and embodied through our upbringing because our parents' parents' parents did that, you know, you know, to make us feel better, they would treat us with food often. It also gets deeply, deeply embedded and advertised and marketed by our environment, you know, the food industry. We don't particularly live in a society that encourages well-being, you know, so I don't wanna go down that route. It's a bit too Psychological, but, you know, the health care pharmaceutical industry is massive, and it's in their best interest that we are not healthy and well and dancing with vitality. And so for many of us, it really means investing in ourselves and not relying on the greater society to take care of us. It's about taking accountability and responsibility for yourself, asking questions, trying things, getting the right advice from the right places, because there's lots of people giving advice out there. It doesn't mean that it's the right advice for you.

Yeah. So I'm I'm I'm just casting my mind back to Christmas as a as an example of just thinking my own my own cycles of of eating and alertness. You know, we we the chocolates come out because we're we're bored. We're watching telly. We're having family time. We're feeling happy. We're sharing. We have our massive Christmas dinner, and, of course, we wanna be like the lions on the Serengeti.

We eat a big meal, and then then we wanna go to sleep for 2 days. It's kind of so overeating, again, pulls all the blood, I suppose, from your brain into the gut to process all this stuff, and it it caused that sluggishness and that Yes. Gluttony response, I guess.

Yeah. So that's also another direct link between how we eat and what we eat and how it affects our energy levels. Yeah. So I think it's wonderful. I always say start with awareness, like, become more aware of how your body is when you're eating, when you're not eating, when you're drinking, when you're not drinking, when you're out in nature, when you're not, when you're at your desk. If we just ask ourselves a question every now and again, how am I? That self awareness can start to lead to being able to make more conscious decisions. Because sometimes, you know, in the afternoon, you could be tired. You could have a headache.

You could you could think you're hungry, but maybe you're just dehydrated. And if you checked in with yourself before you reached for a packet of crisps, you may see, okay. Yeah. Gosh. I've had only 2 cups of coffee. Let me get a glass of water or some tea, and then I'll make a decision whether I'm actually hungry. So that self awareness can lead to better choices.

Yeah. I I found that when I if I have a a large glass of water, half yeah. 500 milliliters, something like that before I eat, it means that I'm I'm full quicker as well. It means I'm not tempted to finish that dish or have the 2nd course or go on from well, maybe I always do go for dessert, but, it it it makes you conscious about your your level of hunger. Whereas if you just eat on an empty stomach, your brain doesn't realize you're full until you've eaten too much. And then you get the, oh, I've eaten too much feeling rather than the sufficiency feeling, which is probably more healthy for us.

Exactly. Exactly.

It's I I find it so difficult to to snack healthily. Yeah. And you should say that the whole industry is around feeding our our addictions to whatever it may be. You know, if I if I'm on a long journey, I wanna stop off to fill up with petrol while I'm in there, pick up something to snack on. It's not easy to snack on something light and healthy. It's it's all pastry based or fat Bites. And I'd I'd I'd grab a bag of carrots and a batons and and and snack on carrots or something, but it's you you just don't find those around, do you?

No. It isn't easy. I mean, you can make some choices. Like, you know, you may not be able to find carrots, but you could find maybe a tub of hummus or some other dip and maybe some cornstons, raw and and perhaps even some what we call, you know, like small bite sized pieces of vegetables. Ideally, when you have the opportunity to eat well, eat well. And if you can, stock up your environment with some options. So, like, for instance, later this afternoon, I'm going to be driving 2 hours to go dancing. I go once a month to this beautiful place in Oxford.

And I know that I'm gonna be starving when I drive the 2 hours home at midnight. So I'm gonna take snacks with me in the car because otherwise, I'm going to end up at a garage and be like, okay. Do I buy Doritos again? Because that's what I always go for if I don't have snacks in the car.

Yeah. No. I I yeah. You're right. It's it's it is about I mean, we're adults. We we we know this. We know the game. We know the situation.

We know what's gonna happen, and we can plan ahead. And when my wife and I, we go to the cinema, we we take our own coffee now and our own little flask because we know that it's £3.50 per per cup of coffee in the cinema. So we take our own thermos cups, and we we take our own little snacks, which is generally grapes or crudites or something like that. Or if it is lunchtime, we'll we'll make our own sandwich or something so we know what's in it. Because I suppose you get there, and it's hot dog or popcorn, which neither are are gonna actually do anything for us. So

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You're right. It's the planning ahead and and and and being an adult, really, isn't it?

I like that. I've never heard of it as a term of being an adult. Yeah. I think it's about taking responsibility for yourself rather than it's so easy to blame and shame and point outwards. But there's some people that are getting it right, and we're all living in the same communities in society. So maybe find people that are role modeling better behavior or something you would like to aspire to, and then make it possible rather than Bites too difficult. It's too expensive. It takes too much time.

I can't do it. Yeah.

I think you said a bit earlier about being conscious of what you consume. And I'm on a journey this year, and I I'm not sure the word journey is always appropriate, but to try and lose weight. So I'm not I'm not trying to go on a what I call a diet, you know, in in real terms. But my objective is to be a lot lighter by the end of the year through some of Bites through fitness. I have a personal trainer. I go to the gym twice a week. I'm starting to do more walking. I wanna get back on my ebike Bites sort of things.

But the other thing that my wife and I are doing is we're keeping a food diary. Mhmm. And we we scan barcodes into it. We take photographs of it. We record everything we're eating, or even down to the just 2 shakes of black pepper we put on our dinner. We put in that in there as well. And just the act of putting into the app and recording it makes you really conscious about what you're gonna eat. It also makes you conscious about your next choice.

Because if we're trying to hit a a calorie target, let's say, 1750 calories a day, when we're sitting there, when we've got 1300 spent and we've got 400 left. We're thinking, how do I wanna use that 400? What do I really wanna do with that? And it's like, if I have that now, I can't have that. So yesterday, we were out and have in a coffee shop, and there was a a chocolate muffin staring at us. You know, like they do. They they Bites on the counter saying, eat me eat me. And we we kind of looked at it and said, we can't afford a whole one each in terms of our intake, but we can share it and have half. And that's what we found. We found recently that we we end up eating meals that are too big, but we end up finishing it because it's there.

And we we were I think we were at the Safety Sart Museum in London the other see, and, we we realized what we could have done was shared that one meal between us and be perfectly happy for lunch rather than force that extra bit into your mouth. So this food diary is really making us, you know, that word you say, conscious about our intake and then making smarter decisions based on the investment we wanna make into the food we're putting inside us. And it it I'm not saying we're we're necessarily healthy in terms of carbohydrates and fats and sugars. And we're not necessarily reading the label, but we are kinda looking at the gross calorific, if you like, value, whatever that's worth. So, yeah, very conscious about it now.

So that's a great example of how being more conscious can drive awareness, and it's driving choices. Even if you do still decide to have the muffin, I think that's wonderful. And now that you've shared it, how many other future desserts and snacks might you share with your wife because of that one piece of information?

Yeah. It was a conscious realism reality that we we when we were at the say the countryside, we sat there and thought, we should Happen shared that. A, it's cheaper, because it's not cheap. And and, b, we didn't need it. And, c, we then occupy we we then consume more calories than we wanted to on a meal snack rather than a main meal that we would have enjoyed better later. So, yeah, I we've we've made a conscious decision now that to buy 1 and share it and get an extra plate, get a knife, cut it in half. So, yeah, we we are more conscious of that. And the objective, we're both trying to get to this weight target without without calling it a diet.

It's it's conscious eating. I think it's probably the way that that dovetails into what you said.

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I always say the first three letters of the word diet give you an idea of what it is. It's usually about the deprivation, denial, and we don't get very excited about it. So, yeah, my approach has never been about dieting. It's always been about lifestyle and joy because food is meant to nourish us, and it's a wonderful opportunity for us to engage the senses, you know, sight and smell and taste and texture. So, yeah, I think it is meant to be part of that holistic enjoyment of life.

Yeah. And the color and the and also the social element. Because one thing I noticed, you know, way back in the past, I used to smoke. I gave up smoking because it's bad for you. It didn't do anything for me. And, yeah, it was a it became clear it was just an addiction. The topic of food is you can't avoid eating, can you? You you have to eat to live. Yeah.

It's just the choices of the food and the amount you you you consume, that you have choice over. But it's I think I when I see my GP about this, he he said, the body is not designed to lose weight. You lose weight, and the body is designed to keep a certain healthiness or build up fat stores or, you know, we go back into our prehistoric time. Human body wasn't designed to to be skinny. It was designed to burn energy and store it when needed. And we haven't forgotten that we don't need to store energy in the same way we used to, But our bodies still want to do it, and it it's a really hard thing to overcome that that desire. Because when we're putting on weight and eating and eating and eating, it's fun. We're social.

It's it's it's Bites feeding our chemicals. When we're denying ourselves, we feel empty and sad and kind of it's it's trying to just change that relationship, isn't it?

Yeah. And perhaps it's true that a vacuum or a void is never enjoyable and bad habits always then get sucked back in. So if you are going to make a change to see the way that you eat, it's important to think about what you can add in. So I speak in my workshops around, loss aversion. We have an aversion to loss and losing out. So knowing that, let's say you want to drink less alcohol because you know it's high in calories and you, you know, you're wanting to perhaps lose a bit of weight or you wanna see better at night. Instead of coming home and thinking, I can't drink. I can't drink.

What can you add in that might help you displace the fact that you were going to drink? So an example, I love to drink a good quality wine. I used to enjoy drinking wine while I cook. However, as I've gone gotten into mid middle age Joanne I'm definitely, you know, going through the perimenopause, I just can't drink as much alcohol as I could before. I don't tolerate it well. So I can't drink while I'm cooking and drink wine with my meal. So what I do is I use a wine glass and I fill it with sparkling water, maybe a slice of lemon or lime or maraschino cherry, and it feels like I'm drinking at least something special while I'm preparing my meal, and then I have a glass of wine with my meal. So I don't feel like in that moment that I'm denying myself because I've added something in. And let's say you're feeling quite stressed and you're used to eating chocolate or something else to de stress.

What if you taught yourself some breathing techniques? What if you taught yourself particular types of movements that you could do, or maybe there's music that you could listen to that can help change your states, that can lift your spirit? So you end up doing something in place of the eating the chocolate instead of just saying, I can't have chocolate.

Yeah. I'm I'm a great advocate for sparkling water. We bought ourselves a SodaStream, and, I gave her back a whole 780 days away ago. I mean, rather than record it at the end where I say I didn't drink. No. I'm not gonna drink. So it's a very positive affirmation about my my drinking. And I've now got an investment of 780 days in not drinking.

Why would I want to start again? I don't. So it's I've I've I've kind of got this momentum now, and I'm now proud, not not outwardly proud, but inwardly proud of of that number that I wanna protect it. So, yeah, it means more to me to not drink than ever will to want to drink. And I hope my whatever happens in my life, I maintain that. I don't I don't ever fall back on it. But yeah. And I I agree with you. The sparkling water, I bought SodaStream.

I said, just that that buzz in your mouth. And I noticed you in the show Bites, you talk about champagne and, how that the the metaphor around Change, but that dancing of the bubbles on your tongue and the way it makes you feel is very invigorating, isn't it?

Absolutely. Yeah. And, how wonderful that we are so unique, Joanne, because I just last night opened a bottle of champagne and posted about it because I live on my own, and my mind was saying, you can't open a bottle Change. Who opens a bottle of champagne on there? Wait till you've got company. And I'm like, if I wait, I might not be around tomorrow, and I am not gonna have guaranteed of company anytime soon. So I posted about why, for me, I and I will just have one glass because I've got really good quality stoppers that keep the bottle for days days. And for me, it's about quality over quantity. And I also my whole family come from the champagne region in France.

So I have this deep understanding of how Change works, and one of the workshops I offer is, around the champagne or sparkling wine making process as a metaphor for well-being. And I always see, I'm not advocating that we should drink alcohol. We know alcohol is really not good for us. We would probably all be better off if we were more like you, Joanne, and not drinking alcohol, that is because, yeah, I don't think we fully appreciate the effect it has on us. But if we are going to drink, to do it in the same way that we would eat a muffin or a slice of cake or a bag of crisps or any meal is to do it with consciousness and joy instead of doing it maybe to reduce stress or, like I say, don't drink to forget, Drink to celebrate. So if you are going to drink alcohol, come from a good positive place rather than I've had such a hard day, my boss and my managers drive me mad, or I just wanna have this drink and then I can face the kids. Yeah. Then it's used as a crutch rather than something to uplift and leverage joy.

Yeah. And that that goes back to the the chocolates, the cream cake, and the other things that we we we comfort eat. Actually, we're we're trying to mask and cover the underlying reality of what we're going through, using food or alcohol as a, as you say, a crutch to to boost us up.

And I do feel that if we taught ourselves to be more still more often, It would be easier to manage any of these, I don't know if we should call them vices, but any of these other behaviors. And what I mean by that is often, we have a form of so stress is a form of agitation. It's a buildup of the need for the body to to fight or to flee or to do something. And so we often end up doing something, be that talking, driving, working, eating, drinking. And what if we learn to sit in stillness and just be with our breath, with ourselves, with our thoughts, with the feelings? And I find the more that I do that lately, the easier it's becoming for me to not automatically reach for something to eat or drink or to keep on working because I tend to go to workaholism if I'm quite stressed, and I'm feeling fearful or guilty. So that's something I haven't spoken a lot about, but I'm going to this year, is how can we cultivate more stillness and comfort with just being in the moment without having to do anything? And what helps with that is to also be able to regulate our breath. So a lot of what I teach is around being mindful breathers, being conscious breathers, knowing how to breathe correctly, because we get very tight and constricted when we're stressed and end up almost hyperventilating.

Yeah. Again, I I've got I've I've got see of relief on that. I've I've I don't know if it was an Apple Watch update I got recently, but all of a sudden, it's now asking me every so often to do a a a mindfulness exercise, a 10 minute just consciously breathing. And you you get a voice over from the watch sort of saying, listen to your breath. Listen to how it sounds. You know, bring yourself into a place that your mind wander, and then be conscious of your breathing all the way through. It's a fascinating 10 minutes, and I'm I'm surprised how quickly that 10 minute passes just by focusing on it, on your breathing. And towards the end, it says right now, now see more conscious about your breathing and bring it back.

Become aware of the surroundings, and it's like, and it's a really, really deep experience. I've until recently, I'd I'd never explored breathing in that way, and it's it's a fascinating thing for self awareness, self care, and just relaxation. Yeah.

That's wonderful. Because when you regulate your breathing, when you slow it down, and that can happen in, in as few as, you know, 2 or 3 breaths, you reduce your blood pressure, you increase what we call heart rate variability, which is an important predictor for well-being and stress management. You help the the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the part of the nervous system that brings on digestion, healing, resting, restoration, and we also help our brainwaves to slow down. So we go from, like, beta brainwave, which is when we're super alert and quite stressed, to perhaps more alpha brainwave, which can help us be more creative. It encourages more whole brain thinking. And that's why I don't know if you found that already or perhaps as you sit more still and have these moments of mindfulness that you problem solve, that you remember something that you would have forgotten or all of a sudden you're like, oh, that's what I need to do with that issue. And that's because the brain is more creative and able to think more holistically.

Yeah. That that reminds me of the story I've got. Jo I was I I have high blood pressure, jo I'm on medication. And every so often, I have to go to my GP and have my blood pressure taken. And when I sit in the chair, then the I I decided to just give me a second. And I I center myself and get myself to a position where all of that car journey, all of the waiting room, all of the stress I had before I went into that room, I just bring myself down. And she says, what are you doing? I said, I'm just trying to center myself to get my blood pressure down to 18 120 over 80. And she says she looks at me like I'm crazy.

And she says, my blood pressure. She said, wow. Yeah. 122 over 76. And I go, there we are. Right right over now. Because I know if I sit there, it's gonna be 140 over 110 or something if I just go into it without that. But literally, as you say, within a few breaths, within a few moments, I can literally just almost pull my hand over my face, down my body.

Oh.

And as I do it, I just let that calmness take over, and I go, okay. I'm now ready. Go for it. And I also find that when dealing with problems, yeah, because we we're very quick to react to things. If we're not careful, this you know, the parasympathetic. Some have you spoke? The vagus the vagus nerve kicks in, doesn't it? And drives all these adrenalin and the the brain chemicals fly. And if we're not in the right state of consciousness, we we don't communicate effectively. We don't listen effectively.

And it's about bringing ourselves centering us. And sometimes I found when I'm in that stressful situation, I need to just put my hand over my face, down my body, breathe, and see, right now, I'm ready to communicate. I'm now centered. I'm now my mind is alert for for you. Whereas before, it was it was somewhere else. I think my my my work as an inclusion specialist, it's trying to press pause on things to slow down thinking rather than people being hot headed and diving straight in. And that that's that's exactly what you're advocating here, isn't it?

It's the same. I mean, we both know as professional speakers, I know that if I walk onto a stage or a platform and I don't take that one deep breath and mindfully ground myself before I speak, I give a very different presentation. You know, I can start off feeling a bit rushed and hyper alert, almost like I've had too much caffeine. I can maybe stutter because as a child, I had quite a a I had a bad stutter, and it comes back when I'm stressed or tired. So, yeah, those little moments and often the people I work with feel like they're just too stressed or too busy to take time out. They're like, yeah, but I can't do that. I'm too busy. I've got, like, 7 back to back meetings every day.

And then when they try, you know, one mindful minute or understanding how to use what you just spoke about in anchor, like moving your hand down your face, how powerful it can be and how it makes us more productive and gives us clearer mind and thoughts jo we actually get more done in less time, we make those mistakes, that we can gain time by doing that.

Yeah. And you see we've got back to back meetings, and you can always turn the camera off for 30 seconds and just say, one moment. I'm just I'm just sorting something out. I'll be with you in 2 seconds. see to yourself, and then say, right. Now I'm ready. Bites we don't have to be minute perfect. As long as we connect, as long as people know we're there to say, sorry.

I I see the bathroom. One moment, please. I need to get a glass of water. Whatever it is, those are genuine human interactions that people don't, no problem at all. Take your time. It's fine. Then you realize you don't need permission. But by interacting, you buy yourself that time to create that that distressing, that, calmness you need rather than feel like you're under this demand pressure of having to be then Mhmm.

Probably fine. The person you're talking to goes, oh, that's great. I could do it a second as well. Thank you. Yeah. And it's off on the way. Absolutely. Do you mind if I dive into some of your past? You know, you put it in the show notes, and I'm I'm I'm curious about you say you're single now, but you weren't always single.

You you've been in relationships. Do you do you wanna are you are you willing to share a bit about that that past?

Yes. Yes. When I was 18, I had, for the past few years before then, done some searching. I wasn't very happy with the Catholic church, which is what I grew up with, and it brought me to I went to a few churches, and then I discovered a conservative Christian community. Some people may know them, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I decided to join them because they really provided what it was that I was searching for at the time. And then I also met my husband, and so we got married when I was 23, and we were married or well, we were together for 18 years, married for 13 of those. And then at the age of 36, I decided that that community was no longer where I wanted to be, and so I left. So that's a little bit about my past.

I have been married, and I thought that that was going to be it for the rest of my life, that I was going to be in this monogamous relationship. But as we know, life isn't always as we think it's going to be, especially not when we're 18 years old. I think at any time, really, we can't predict what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone in a week or a year's time.

How did you find leaving because it the community. Because it it is a community where you live by like see do in in in society, we live by a certain rule base, but you must have been living in a in a in a a less open rule base, more restricted sort of, lifestyle. How did you find coming out of that in into the the wider world again? Was that a a shock to the system? It was something you craved or had did you take an adjustment at the time?

Yeah. That's a great question, actually. I it wasn't an easy process for me because I I I take I still do my spirituality quite seriously. So for me, it was more than just the community. It was really I had identified so strongly with that belief system that, you know, I would have called it my truth. And so the biggest lesson I've had from that experience is I will never call anything my truth again because I don't know if it's going to change. So at that time, I was convinced this was it. I said my marriage vows that I would stay with my husband till death do us part, and I really believe that I had found the answer to my spiritual questions.

However, now I completely you know, I don't agree with that thought process at all. And so I had some shame around that, a lot of shame actually, and guilt around I felt like I had let people down, family, friends, people in that community. So it's been a very sacred and delicate journey. You know? It's been almost 10 years now and 7 years since I've been in the UK, and moving to the United Kingdom was one of the best decisions I made because I had to move I had to create distance between that part of my life. And so being in the UK enabled me to almost have a fresh start and discover who am I if I don't have a religious body telling me how to be or the patriarchy or a husband even. You know? And so it's Belonging a very adventurous 7 years discovering who am I at my essence, and I'm not quite there, I can still feel there's parts of me that are still to be discovered, but there's much less shame and guilt, there's much more curiosity and joy and love and love. I have so much more love for everyone if you are Jehovah's Witness or not. I think what we need is much more unconditional love.

Bites huge for life is is a Wellbeing the time you you left at 36, it was half of your life. All of your adult life, and the formative years in your twenties. It must be really difficult because, presumably, you you you have to break almost completely. You don't necessarily pop back and say hi or keep in touch as as you would because Bites kind of a complete separation. Is that is that how I'm interpreting it?

Yes. Yes. There are people that were considered my best friends that I've never spoken to in a decade because I've left. Yeah. But you know what, Joanne? I I understand it because, you know, we were all playing, let's say, football, you know, and then I decided to play hockey. So you can't play hockey on a football pitch or field, so you've got to leave. Otherwise, you're gonna upset the other players. It's not fair because the rules are Diversity, you know, and then it's confusing.

And so that's how I looked at it. I just wanted to play a different sport, and that doesn't make me right and them wrong or the other way around. Yeah. And the more I learn about myself and the world, the the less I believe any of us have got the answers. And I truly believe I'd love us to come to a place where and this is from doctor Zach Busch. He's a health practitioner that I'm Wellbeing following a lot at the moment, who speaks about how ideally we should get to a place where we don't have any titles. You know, so it doesn't matter if you're he, her, she, him, or what you believe, or what your age is, we're human. Having this human experience, and that's a beautiful thing that should be respected, and ideally, we should always treat each other from a place of love and respect.

I completely agree, and I I think the boxes we we create for ourself or given to us by other people limit our potential. But society is kind of built around certainty and definitions, and our brain is designed to have stereotypes. And, Pat, we like to better say, well, you're one of these and you're one of those, because that makes me feel comfortable knowing who I am as well. It takes Joanne enlightened mind to step out of those constructs and and call it out for the BS that it potentially is. I mean, when I to use your analogy, when I gender transitioned, I stopped playing football Joanne started playing hockey. And I I walked away from a large chunk of my life because they're football players. And I we we haven't got anything to talk about anymore because I'm more interested in shooting the, the the ball into the back of the net with my stick. And it's it's a and it and it is it's it's sad sometimes that I've broken away from a lot of Belonging standing relationships.

But in a way, it's also very cathartic and very empowering to find, as you my current truth, my current sense of self, my my who I am today has evolved. And I allowed myself to reshift my thinking about myself. And I I I think you're right. I'm always evolving myself on a micro level. I'm always learning, always growing. So day by day, I do a lot of self reflection about who I am, not to judge myself, but just to sort of say, it's okay. Just figure it out. And having conversations like these, and this is why I love recording this podcast, is I meet so many fascinating people.

It allows me to have a network micro growth, if you like, every every conversation I have.

Yeah. One of my values is, curiosity. So I always want to stay curious about myself, about others, about the greater world at large. And also for me, it's joy. So joy and freedom are possibly the 2 things that matter the most to me. And I think, you know, I don't know if everybody can answer that question. Like, what are your 2 or 3 top values? You know, what is driving your your behaviors and thoughts and actions? And that alone can be really enriching. So I've done a lot of work with many coaches, many therapists.

I use different systems like the Enneagram, and currently, I'm using see keys. I'm very interested in mysticism and shamanism at the moment and connecting more with nature. And I think if we just always stay curious and ask questions and never accept the status quo because we don't have control. We're we're our infinite energy having a finite experience. And I think we want to keep things the same, especially if we're Happen, you know, if we're in a certain relationship or we've got a certain job and the kids are doing well and we're about to go on vacation or holiday, then we allow ourselves to be Happen. We don't want anything to Change. But that's not what life is about. You know? The weather's always gonna change, and things are gonna come up that's gonna take a big chunk out of your budget, and you might lose your job, and there might be war.

And does that mean we can't be happy? And that for me is maybe the difference between happy and joy. So joy is an internal job. How can I manage my own joy despite what's happening around me? And that's really my focus, or it has been for the last few years, but currently is how can I just be me and joyful? And that might not please other people, but I'm not here to please other people. So I wanna be able to be even in a state of suffering, you know, be really sick or be mourning. You know, I I've lost people to death, but that doesn't mean that I can't keep my inner sense of joy. And I think when we realize that we control very little and that we have everything available to us, so we can drop this idea of scarcity and fear of lack, and there won't be enough. I truly believe that there's a benevolent collective consciousness that's guiding us. And the more we connect to that, the more we allow for this the the feminine archetype, you know, of nature to to rise, because that's what we need.

I mean, we are so letting the earth down that the more we do this work within ourselves and then that can impact our close friendships and relationships, then we can create communities that start to think about these things because the system that has been is clearly not working.

Yeah. It's not

working in the way that I would like humanity to live in a place of joy and abundance and freedom. Yeah.

If we look at the way society, commerce, scarcity is kind of the model that's being pushed, isn't it? see marketing, it's it's always about trying to this offer only lasts today. You've got you've got to make a decision now. Websites, interactions, signage, whatever it may see, is all around trying to create this scarcity mindset that I have to have something. And you're right. The the essence here is joy. What brings me joy? And one of the things that brings me joy is sufficiency. I have sufficient for my needs. Sufficient may Wellbeing to that I I need sufficient plus a bit for the rainy day, but I don't need double what I need.

I just need enough to to last me and to and to see me out. And I think the other side of that is freedom, freedom of choice. And jo if you have sufficient, you can make choices. If you have insufficient, then you you you you don't you lose the power to decide over certain things. You you lose agency. But, yeah, if you're constantly found fed this gluttony model of of of deficit, then you're always trying to strive for more, and that that doesn't bring you joy, does it? Always wanting more.

No. And, I mean, I work with a lot of very successful leaders, business owners, you know, when I'm doing either 1 on 1 consulting or group work, and they share a lot around their emotional and mental health with me, which is such a privilege. But there's you know, the more they seem to have, the less happy they are because there's a sense of, well, you know, I could lose it all. And I'd feel like if I just get one more client or if the business just grows and merges with that one more division or if I just work a little harder, but then we end up with burnout and fatigue. And, you know, this isn't easy. The reality is is that we need to go out and buy groceries and pay our mortgages. Right? However, I do feel that there's a way to soften and not compromise our health while we're building this wealth and to also approach everybody as equals, regardless what titles or belief systems we have. So that's something I learned in my journey of transitioning and leaving a country and a marriage and a religion, yeah, is to try not to make judgments about anybody because we don't know what other people are processing.

We have no idea when you go to the post office what that person behind the counter had to deal with that morning or the person who's driving behind you that feels like they're trying to get around you too quick quickly. They could be rushing to pick up their sick child at school. And if we just come at it from a place of, you know, assume people are doing the the best they can with what they have and where they are. And if we did that, perhaps then this this life that is quite tough and hard could just be a little bit more joyful, and that could be a great place to start.

Yeah. More consideration, compassion, understanding. Yeah. I I could relate to that. And I was I was I think I was reading something, and as you do scroll through your phone sometimes, and I I asked her, I was popping up on one of the, news Change, was around the Beckhams, David Beckham and Victoria Beckham. And and I think the interview was with Victoria saying that she sees very little of David these times. She misses the the family and the home or the kids have moved out. They've got this massive house.

David spends a lot of his time in America now, and she spends a lot of time in London doing her business. And I just thought, why can't or why couldn't they step off of that conveyor belt and say, we have sufficient. We've got more money, more wealth, more assets, more status than we we can ever use. Why do we need more? And, actually, we if if if our core value was around having that family time in our home, they could make that decision if they wanted to. They have they have freedom. They have choice because they have sufficient and more. And I think you often see famous people, actors, who have done very well suddenly disappear.

Mhmm.

And they they step off of that that rung, and they they retire. They do whatever they do. You see them on a beach somewhere, or or they they take a different career. And you think that sometimes what you need to say to yourself is what is gonna bring me joy? Am I am I still chasing something that I'll never achieve because there's never an end to this status, wealth, having more, getting bigger? By just trying to feed the monster inside me all the time? And how can I just whack the stop button on the escalator and say, this doesn't bring me joy? I have sufficient. I could do things differently and and get off. It's a it's a tough thing to do when you're from your teens, you're almost programmed to grow and and grab.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean so I've been asking myself that question over the past year and a bit. And so in my way, what I've done is, do I need to start as early as I do? Because once I start work, I find I just get so pulled into it because I love what I do. And I've been gifting myself, you know, 2 hours in the morning, maybe 3, where I do my own thing, look after me first, and I take more time off now than I ever did. And interestingly, I am making more money with more ease. You know, there was a transitional phase where it wasn't that clear cut, but I find that the more I authentically connect to me and find my joy, my sense of freedom, my sense of enoughness, you know, I've simplified my life. I recently moved into an apartment from being in quite a big house.

It's not that great. I mean, I can hear the kids upstairs and downstairs, and, sure, I'd love to be in a big country home in the middle of nowhere. But right now, having the joy and the freedom, you know, I'm going away next week for a few days to catch the sun because I can. So in my I'm doing I'm making small declarations to myself, and I'm noticing how the more I do that, the more there seems to be an abundance of everything. You know? I'm not starving. I am paying my bills. I'm my my friendships are enriched because I'm more relaxed and I have more time with them. I think we don't know what we don't know, Joanne.

And when we give ourselves an opportunity to try something new, even if it feels a bit woo woo, like this breathing technique or taking a mindful minute or reading a book that somebody tells you about that you think you may never have engaged with, we can make space for magic to

Yeah. Magic never happens when you're stressed. Magic happens when you your mind goes clear, that that blue sky thinking, you know, phrase or we just ideate. But your your brain needs spare Joanne capacity and cycles to be able to ideate and let let things flow. Opportunities happen when you're, when you're, when you're relaxed.

And, you know, we have research to back up what you've just said, you know, there's wonderful work being done by people like Doctor. Jo Dispenza and the HeartMath Institute that are showing when we're relaxed and we're taking slow, deep breaths and our brainwaves slow down, we literally create a different electromagnetic field around us, and we attract different people and opportunities. I know this sounds out there, and we can't go into the detail of how that works now, But quantum physics is a is a science. It's it's what holds atoms and life together in the whole of cosmos and space. And we're realizing now that when you are relaxed, when you're not stressed, you literally open up your field around you, and you act like a magnet in a different way to when you're stressed and closed down and super focused on your life and your bills and what's wrong, you know, which I think is very exciting. I mean, even in the space of health care and healing, you know, we're seeing spontaneous healings taking place, which back in the day, we would have said Belonging to the times of Jesus and miracles, but they're happening now with people who are deeply relaxed, have a daily meditative practice, who are using techniques that help with their heart and brain coherence, and their autoimmune conditions are going away, and they are improving their mental health, and they are healing conditions that doctors have said, well, that's, you know, chronic. You'll have that for the rest of your life. So once again, if this strikes a chord with anyone who's listening, be curious.

Be curious. Maybe look at heart math or doctor Jo Dispenza and see, you know, what is out there that you don't know, and then practice it and let your body show you if it's something that you could use. I always say that to people. Like, don't listen to me or anybody. Practice these things, and let the intelligence of your body and your mind and your soul tell you whether it's a good thing for you.

Do you have a a Wellbeing calculator assessment, and you take people on this sort of, like, journey of Yes. 10 steps or something to, assess someone's well-being foundation. Yeah. Do you want to just give us a little summary of how are those 10 steps or maybe, yeah, the pathway you take to and the and the foundations there?

So the Wellbeing calculator is, I guess, it is a calculation of how well you are based on some fundamental habits. So there's 10 areas that the world calculator looks at, and I always start with the world calculator with all my clients. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do, what your current health status is, where you are in your well-being journey. And it's 10 statements that you answer yes or no to, and they look at areas like sleep, mindset, positive outlook, exercise, breathing, posture, gut health, refueling portions that you eat, mindfulness, hydration. You can access the Wellculator on my website, which I can always share a bit later, and I take you through it. I have used the Workulator for 16, 17 years. So myself, I do it maybe 3, 4 times a year. I just kind of take a check, and so it's an incredibly helpful tool.

It's it's not the only thing to look at when you look at well-being, but as a foundation, because that's the work that I do with teams, is looking at building a solid foundation. Because when you have a good physical base, then it's easier to self actualize or to find energy for managing your emotions or, you know, processing thoughts. But if you're sleep deprived, dehydrated, and you have a headache because you're not drinking enough water, it's gonna be really hard for you to manage your emotions or regulate your thought processes, which is why I always go back to the fundamentals.

Yeah. I I can relate to that. I I definitely feel more in tune when I'm going to the gym. I'm not by any means saying that I'm fit, but just the act of going to working out, having a good hour of of of of intense exercise, plus focusing on my diet, what I'm eating, thinking about what I consume, and and distressing about things that don't matter, you know, letting things go, having more positive outlook on things. It it's uplifted my whole sense of well-being. And I think probably over the last 7 or 8 years since my life Change, I've been a lot more in touch with that side of me, that femininity and that inner core. And it it brings me joy. And I I think that's the only thing I can say is that I never knew that joy could exist in the old model.

The new model embraces that that sort of sense, and I'm I've got a smile on the inside, and it's it's a genuine smile.

Well, you do. I mean, the Jo I know definitely has this twinkle and a smile that comes Decaf from within, for sure.

Thank you. Celynn, we could talk all day. We've wrapped it off for just over an hour and a little bit off before that in the greenery when we've we've met several times and had conversations as well. How can people get a hold of you? It's to find out more.

I think the best place is to go to the home page of my website and sign up for the calculator and then take it yourself. You'll because you'll get it immediately as a PDF, or you Joanne go through 2 short 5 minute videos where I take you through it myself. That that is kind of fun because then I can help you negotiate whether you answer yes or no or half points and that kind of thing. And, my name is, of course, is spelled Diversity, so please take a look at the show notes. It's celinemorin.com. see e l y, double n, morinsaleenmorren.com. I think that's the best place, and you can find me under Celynn Moran on Facebook, on Instagram, and on LinkedIn.

Fabulous. And I will put a link to the calculator on the, on the show notes. And, honestly, it's been a fascinating talk, and it's it's sometimes when you a conversation like this, it it resonates so deep inside. You think, kind of I've I've discovered this, but now I've discovered that it's a thing as well. It's not just me. It's it's Bites a state of being as well.

And I think what's interesting is, you know, we started off talking about the gut and nutrition and food. And a really easy way, if I only had a few minutes with a group and they asked me, well, how do I take care of my well-being? I would say, well, think of head, heart, and gut. So I'm thinking of your hand when you put your hand in front of your face. Head, heart, and gut. So the gut we've spoken about, you know, eat a lot of plant based foods, like see your microbiome. Because when you look after your gut, your gut will look after you. And then in terms of your head and your heart, the head, I would stay curious. Keep thinking and asking questions.

Don't assume that you know anything because you might think what you know today is truth, but in 5 years' time, you'll be looking back and maybe feeling guilt and shame around that. So stay curious. And then with your heart, I would say, yeah, just come from a place of love. Like, tell yourself that you love yourself as often as possible. I tell myself that all the time. I love you, Selene. I love you, Selene. And then love others.

Just assume that the person at the traffic light, at the counter, everybody, everybody is actually worthy of love, head, heart, and gut.

That's beautiful. Thank you.

Thank you.

As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's make your voice heard.

Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.