Welcome to the Building Heroes podcast, where we learn to build heroes in our homes to help our kids be prepared for their life journeys. Hi, I'm your host, Molly Christensen, and I love to encourage and mentor you on your path. Hi everyone, welcome to the Building Heroes podcast. This is episode 109, and I am so excited that I have a special guest for you today. This is Laura Swain, and she is a homeschool mom of 4, and I am excited to hear what she has to share with us today. So welcome, Laura, and why don't you just jump right in and just tell us your story.

Sure thing. Thanks so much for having me, Molly. I'm a homeschool, like you said, I'm a homeschool mom of 4 kids. At the time of this recording, they're ages 5 to 10. And we live in Southwest Ohio, where I've spent almost my entire life in this pocket of the world. And, um, we just recently, 2 years ago, moved on to a little bit of acreage. So we spend a lot of time outside. We're aspiring homesteaders, but maybe it's stage 0 of that journey. Just working on it. We have some really rocky clay soil, so we're figuring out the garden stuff right now, maybe layering in some animals in the future, but fortunately we have some amazing neighbors who are pros at all this and showing us the ropes. So that is really helpful.

Oh, that is super cool. I think a lot of homeschoolers have the dream of being homesteaders. Are you finding it a lot of work?

Oh my goodness. Way. Yes, way more than we anticipated and we were we're actually looking we were in the suburbs and we spent almost 5 years looking for property and like a house on some land. And, you know, the housing market has just been crazy. And so we finally found a place that would work for us. And so we already had to be super patient with that. And so I think that prepared us to be patient, actually living here, knowing that all of our dreams are going to crystallize in, you know, in a few months or even a year. So we're just taking it bit by bit. And I've just been enjoying like I think my favorite time of the year is spring now as an adult, because I love seeing green things coming up. I love planting flowers and vegetables and watching them grow. And so, you know, pulling out those dang weeds and making spaces beautiful, just little by little, very gradually. We grew some huge some flowers last year, like only a few of them, but they were giant. And so like stuff like that. It's just so fun to see it to see the fruit like literal fruit and blooms happen because of your work.

Yeah, I love that too. I have a garden too that I've got going. And, you know, something about gardening just really teaches you about life because, you know, we kind of live in the drive-through world. I know you just want everything instantly, you know, right away. And When we see where our food comes from and we see that it takes time and effort and consistency, ah, that's like most things in life, except our brains are like, no, I just want it right now.

Absolutely. And I just today actually went out and like all these weeds popping up right where I decimated them a few a couple weeks ago. So I yanked them back out and like my little flower seedlings are still so tiny. Remember, like, just so you just today I was thinking, oh my goodness, I know like in a few months I'm going to look at this and everything's going to be full and like, you know, these crazy tall plants everywhere I look. But right now it's just a bunch of dirt. So it's you, it helps me to, I think it helps me that I've experienced it before. You know, I think the more time both in parenting, in homeschooling and gardening, once you have experienced a fruitful season and seen the whole process from, you know, plant to seedling to strong, you know, delicious vegetable or bloom, then it like reminding yourself of that. That's what, what helps me be a little more patient with the process.

Yeah, for sure. I know I was going to say, I mean, gardening is a lot like homeschooling because sometimes we get into homeschooling and we expect it all to be, you know, we think of all this stuff and we think, oh yeah, it's going to be perfect right away. Not so much. You know, there is that whole process of planting the seeds and nurturing and, and creating the environment for the kids. And, and it's a process for sure.

And isn't that funny, Molly, that like we, our tendency as parents, and I think I, like I usually say there's good and bad in this tendency. The good the good motivation is that we worry or fret because we care so deeply about our children. They're the most important things in our whole life and we want the world for them. And so any little setback or flaw in executing the plan, it feels more profound than anywhere else in our lives because of the deep level of love we have for them. But the challenge is that when we get so bent out of shape about these different setbacks or when things take longer than we had, you know, planned in our head mapped out, you know, when we were city girls before we moved out to the country. We help it actually makes us go slower and lose momentum and miss out on the beautiful things that are happening, you know, just in a different time than we would have liked.

Yeah, totally. It is. It's really kind of a, I don't want to call it a mind game, but I guess I will. It's, it's just really kind of a mind game in a way, because like you say, as mothers, you know, our most precious charge is our children. And so we are invested, right? Like we want so much good things for them. And, and we can let that stress this out so much that we we do miss the progress. And if we get too focused on all the weeds, we can't see what's coming. And we can't see that progress.

Absolutely. And I think when we, um, when we have, like you said, it's about your mindset and perspective. Like when you have the perspective that a flawless childhood in life, me like is what the good thing is for your kid, then of course, setbacks are going to bother you. But if you understand, like you teach about the hero's journey, if you understand how important conflicts and challenges and problem solving are in that hero's journey, and that they like, they are not just acceptable, you know, bumps in the road, but they're actually necessary for the growth and victorious outcome we imagine in our minds. When we begin to understand that, then, then we can celebrate. And I know that sounds bold, but like we can celebrate when our kids experience failure or when we experience challenges too, in leading them, knowing that we're just 1 step further on that journey. And that's something worth celebrating.

Yeah, totally. And it's, it, it, It's easy to say the quotes, like, you know, we talk about Thomas Edison, who found 10, 000 different ways to not create a light bulb, but it's hard to put it into practice. It is hard to have the failures, right? And it's hard to have the conflicts and have the challenges.

Yeah, I think that's true of most of our convictions that we hold dear. It's so much simpler to say we believe them than to live like we believe them. And the living part is like the the knowing part, like in our minds, that is the simplest piece saying, yeah, OK, yeah, that makes sense that it would take that many times to find the make the perfect light bulb or do anything worth doing in life. But when we actually have to be the ones like we want to admire Thomas Edison from afar and say, yeah, he was so like he demonstrated perseverance and commitment and focus and resilience, all these valuable things. And it's like, we want that without having to do what he did. We just, um, like want to wake up 1 day and have that discovery. And like you said, this fast food culture that where we, or, you know, we're maybe okay with like a little bit of, you know, discomfort or challenge, then, okay, I've tried, that was enough of a challenge for me. I'm ready for the victory tomorrow. But working through it and wrestling through it. It's, it's not only what propels us forward but it also brings us into deeper connection and trust with our kids to when we walk through these seasons, these valleys with them.

Yeah and it totally builds our character and theirs too. Which you know building character is not always easy. Because character is really just how we take our values and how we implement those with our actions. Like, are we acting in integrity to what we believe or what we want to believe? And building that character, It's tough. And I think when we pull kids home to homeschool, I think it's even tougher because we see all the problems, right? We don't get to send them off sometimes. And they won't see our problems. That's the other thing too. You know, when the kids come home for homeschooling, they're going to see us in all of our glory and all of our failures, you know. So I think that's 1. I remember when I started homeschooling, I was thinking, okay, I have to do this perfectly because I have to prove that what I'm doing is going to be better than what the alternative is. And I felt so much pressure to perform and make my kids learn. It was stressful and overwhelming to do all that. And I think, I mean, I started a long time ago, homeschooling. I don't remember now, probably 23 years or something like that. And, you know, I think there's a lot more support out there now. So hopefully moms aren't doing it as hard way I did so much, but I think the tendency is still there. So what do you say to moms that feel like that, that like they feel like they have to prove that what they're doing is working and that still kind of have this perfectionistic mindset going on. Like we got to do it all perfectly for our kids to learn.

Oh yeah. And first thing I would say is that they're not alone. That I myself am a recovering perfectionist. And again, I think it comes from this deep care for our children, even those of us who might not be perfectionists in every area of our life, we really want the perfect thing for our kids, don't we? And the other thing I would say as a former teacher, so I taught in public school for 5 years before staying home to homeschool my kiddos when my oldest was born 10 years ago. And now that I've been out of the system for a decade, I can see so much more clearly. Like when I say, you know, Molly, when I was in the system, when I was teaching, I would have considered myself a super, like pretty outside the box teacher. I like I had was lucky to get some awesome education when I was getting my master's about play-based education and child-led learning, but I was trying to cram that into this framework in the public school classroom that was hostile to that, you know, the antithesis of that. And there were some, you know, other good teachers out there trying to do the same. And like you know with these valiant attempts to prioritize connection and child learning and inquiry and all kinds of beautiful things that we value about the innate curiosity inside children and their inner drive to learn. Um, but because of the framework of the institution, it's, it's just not possible to fully lean into that. And so coming out of that mindset is very difficult and it takes time for us as adults, because most, I would say most parents who homeschool were not homeschooled themselves. And so in, even for those who were, we're still saturated in a school culture that like leaks beyond the walls of the classroom into every aspect of our lives, like this fast food culture that you were talking about where we want this thing quickly that is a school thing isn't it, Wanting to see a result from an investment, wanting to connect this linear progress with certain hours of instruction. All of that, John Taylor Gatto calls that a factory model of education where you are turning up, focusing on efficiency and churning out products that are, you know, the same and standardized and can all know and do the same stuff by the time they leave. So if we are bringing that, that if we're aspiring to do that, when we come home, we might not say that out loud, like, yes, I want to treat my home like a factory, you know, let's get to work. We might not say that, but it's normal and understandable that that, like being saturated in this culture, that that would influence our feelings and decisions and our feeling of like our ability to lead our kids and our homes. And so if I'm trying to like emulate the setup of a factory without 95% of the factory workers, then of course I'm going to feel insufficient to do the job. But when I understand that my kids are not products on an assembly line. My kids are born learners that have, that came into this world with this, like, inborn desire to explore and discover and grow, that that, like, that's something that's already in them, then that changes everything. And I like, I don't have to feel so much pressure to put all the knowledge in them, like filling a cup full of water, you know, full of facts and information. Instead I can see them as like a river full of water already vibrant and alive that just needs to be tended and cultivated.

Yes, I love that. I mean, and like your garden too, right? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and it's, yeah, 1 of my favorite quotes is, education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire. Yes. We can get really caught up and stressed out about the checklists and making sure. And it's like, that's the problem. You can't make your kids learn. You know, you can't make a horse drink, right? That's the quote, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink yeah

absolutely

okay we had to take a little break there. But you know what, I love that we don't have to do this perfectly, because this wouldn't happen. And that really is the same thing with homeschool. If we have to do it perfectly, it might happen, but no one's going to be happy.

No, absolutely. At what cost, right? At what cost does the perfection happen?

Yeah. And really our kids are not distractions. They're kind of the point, right? But sometimes maybe we feel like they're distractions, and maybe they do distract us, but they're not the distractions, you know? Right. So, I mean, they are kind of the point of all this. And yeah, and it's funny because you were talking about factory style homes schooling, and it's all about efficiency and standardization and none of its individualization at all, which is a beautiful thing about homeschool. But the problem is, is factories are not designed for connection. And I think that's, you know, and I love efficiency, actually, but I think efficiency needs to be applied on those routine things that we just got to get done. It's not all about the learning part. It's not about the connecting part. It's not it's not all about that. So, I mean, as we go on reframing our minds, because because homeschool is a mindset shift, right? We, we have to shift the way we're thinking because we can't homeschool just like the public school does because we're still their moms. We still got to connect with them. You know? So talk a little about a bit about, wow. Talk a little bit about that.

Absolutely. So like you were saying, we can be, instead of thinking, having this weight hanging over us, like, oh no, I'm not gonna be able to provide X, Y, or Z as well as the school could, or just like the school could. We can respond to that and say, yes, that's correct. What a relief that I am going to be able to give them something different, you know? So like that's why we're leaving in the first place or choosing something, you know, a different path than the school setting in the first place. However, be like, like I said, we're saturated in a culture that has, and I agree with you, I think like standardizing things that need to be standardized and in finding more efficiency in our lives as we grow is very good and helpful. But when that becomes like the top priority, we lose sight of those connections. Like you were saying, Molly, like that, we, we, our kids are the point, like you said. And when we become so wrapped up in doing the right steps in the right order, finishing all the pages in the book, getting everything, you know, clean in the house in a certain order before anything else can happen, then we, we miss like needs as they come up organically. We miss beautiful moments to connect as they come up organically. And I remember what I was going to start to say that it's, it's normal for us to feel tension because we feel pulled to a different way, but we're living in a world that's telling us this is the only way the factory model is the only way. And the anything less means you're letting your kids down. And so I think the best way to fortify your mindset and resolve against, um, this culture that you're deciding not to partake in is to find other people who are doing the same thing. It feels so much better, doesn't it? When you feel like you're not like a raving lunatic and you know, who's like solo out in the world making these weird decisions that nobody else understands. When you have even just 1 or 2 other people in your life who look at your life and say, I understand, I'm doing the same thing. I get you. And it's, it helps alleviate that pressure. And I often compare it to the power of the ocean. Like when, do you guys ever go to the beach? I know my family loves the beach.

Well,

if we do, we have to go to California or Florida, but yeah. Yeah. Not where I am. Yeah, right. Same, not where we are either, but we've gone on some beach vacations. And when my girl, we just went for the first time in 2021. That was the first time my kids had ever seen the beach. My daughter was 8, my oldest. She was just, oh man, so entranced by it. They love the waves and the sand and everything. And there was 1 day that was a bit stormy, but the water was still safe, but they had like a yellow flag out. And so I told the girls, the big girls, you know, you're going to get in the water and I'm going to be right here on the blanket watching you while the twins play in the sand. I'm going to watch you and I'm going to keep my eye on you. And of course they, you know, have their life jackets on and everything. And I said, you're, you're safe and you'll be okay, but you're going to look up and think that you're not because you won't be able to find me. And it doesn't mean that I've moved or that I've left you. The water will have swept you down the beach without you even noticing. It's so subtle, but very powerful in that current ocean current is constant, constantly pulling you down. So I said to the girls, when that, when you notice that happens, I want you to be aware and keep an eye out. And when you notice it's happened, just hop up on the sand, run back over and go back, you can go back in the water after you check in with me. And I think the same is true with us. We are in this culture. That's as powerful as an ocean current, Molly pulling us away from what we know is true. And like you said, we, in our minds, believe, might believe that our kids are born learners. In our minds, we believe that there's a different, better way than the factory model. But the rest of the world doesn't agree with us about these things and is in fact tells us the opposite is true. And so partnering with, you know, friends or mentors or investing in a tight knit community is an amazing way to protect your heart and mind in this world and say, yes, every day, even though it's hard and the world might tell me I'm wrong, I'm gonna choose this born learner mindset. I'm going to choose to go on the hero's journey with my kids and help guide them instead of micromanaging every single aspect of their lives. When you have people doing that alongside you, it emboldens you. It gives you stamina and perseverance and just helps you know that, you know, you're not a weirdo.

Well, you actually might be a weirdo, but you're a servant's child.

The best kind of weirdo.

No, I mean, I totally agree with that. I'm like, it is, it is lonely to go against the world. It is. I mean, and why do we even do that? You know, it'd be so much easier to just go with the flow, right? But we know that there really is no growth in the flow, right? You're just floating. You're not moving. You're not creating better things for your family. You're not going with your heart Because really, I believe every single person at homeschools felt it here in their heart. Like sure, maybe you had some logical ideas about it, but to go against the current, you have to have something more powerful than just logic. I think you, you have to have that calling that feeling in your heart, that that's the thing you needed to do.

And yeah. And I think that that heart conviction often starts with just this tiny little nagging feeling or hunch like, or thought like, I wonder, you know, I wonder if this is the best way after all. I wonder, you know, everyone's telling me, you know, X, Y, or Z, you know, I wonder if that's actually true. And it starts with that curiosity and like listening to that curiosity and really taking time and like, I guess, energy to dig into those questions, because it's, it would be, like you said, it would be easier to just go with the flow and pretend like you don't have any concerns about the way things are going or, you know, with your, the standardized path. It would be like easier to just listen to people who are reassuring you, Oh, that's normal. You know, it's normal for kids to, you know, get bad grades or do this or that. And like taking the time to investigate that little voice that's telling you, you know, this is worth checking out. This is worth investigating.

It's it leads to some really beautiful opportunities. Yeah, I agree. And sometimes though, we just want to ignore that little voice because we don't want to have to do it.

Absolutely. Well, it's normal to feel afraid to do something that feels unfamiliar and strange. It especially if we feel like we're not equipped, we're not the ones for the job. And we're not the kind of people who blank, like I've thought that about myself in the past. I'm not the kind of person who can, you know, keep my house clean. I'm not the kind of person who's, you know, super patient with my kids. I'm not the kind of person who blank, um, anything you would fill in the blank there, if you feel something pulling you toward that, of course, you're going to have resistance, but, um, Often like the, any of the reservations that we have are often just rooted in excuses born from fear I've found in my own life.

Oh, me too. Totally. And also I think some of the voices that come up to our, um, what if I mess up? And so it's the fear of failure too right but also I think sometimes we get FOMO, major FOMO, we have this fear of missing out. And so, How do you deal with FOMO?

Oh man, that's a really good question. I was just talking to another homeschooler about this the other day, about why I was talking about falling behind. And this fear that you know many homeschoolers have about falling behind, and how it's connected with this FOMO we have about this regular experience that we're, and really, again, when I take time to not just brush past this little niggling feeling or thought when I take time to go deeper and dig a little, grab a shovel and some garden gloves and dig down and see what's underneath. Then I find out that in my heart, It's because I think that there's a better place for me to be. And I went through a really difficult season around the time my twins were born. They're 5 now. Um, and it was, um, starting a year before they were born, I had like an unrelated injury, then a surgery, then the twin pregnancy, which was, you know, exhausting and debilitating. Then they came, it was, it was a season of about 3, maybe 4 years where I, Like my physical capacity was just next to nothing. And I had these 2 little toddler girls at the time. And I had so much guilt about what I thought I should be doing for them. That was around the time when I thought, oh, now we're gonna start real homeschool, you know, in my head, cause my oldest was about 4. And, um, I saw other moms taking their kids on all these adventures and doing all of these things. And I could barely unload the dishwasher each day, You know, like that was the limit of my, what I could do. And then I basically sat on the couch. And so I learned a lot about FOMO during that time. And a lot about this feeling of loneliness and isolation And just being confronted with my lack in my limitation and I hated it. It was so hard. I felt so much despair. And I remember like, you know, um, I had a minor surgery about 6 months after the twins were born and that messed up their sleep and messed up the breastfeeding rhythm. So they just decided that they were never going to sleep again. So I remember being up in the middle of the night with them with 1 baby on 1 arm and 1 baby in the other arm. And I get 1 to sleep and then the other 1 would wake up. Then I get him to sleep and then his sister would wake up. And it was like that all night. And I was just in tears, Molly, and that rocking chair in the dark room. And I remember praying like, God, don't you see me? Like, I know you do. And like, don't you love me and care about me? I know you do. So why aren't you rescuing me from this hardship that's taking away my joy, that's keeping me from all of these wonderful things in life that everyone else gets to experience except me. And what I've learned now, it's always easier looking back, isn't it? I've learned that God answered my prayer in that season by prolonging that season that I was in because he knew that I maybe was a little bit of a slow when it came to attaching my identity to how much I do or attaching my identity to what people think of me or attaching my identity to like being in the mix all the time, you know, the opposite of FOMO, like being always there and into everything. And so because of that season, it was just, you know, me and God and my family. And all of these things were stripped away and it allowed me to focus on what's most important in my life. It gave me a little bit more, not a little, a lot more clarity about who I am, why I'm here, and that I get to like decide where we're going and that always looking around like frantically for like what other people's decisions are because of the FOMO is not just a distraction, but it's going to harm my family. And I know that sounds a little bit dramatic, but I realized that those are the things I learned. And that is why today I'm so passionate about talking about these things with other homeschool moms in particular, because I've seen, I've been in the dark place and learned the hard lessons. And now I'm experiencing the fruit from that hard season. And I'm better able to protect my boundaries. I'm clearer about what matters most to us in this season. I have a much healthier approach to, like, I don't have to worry about seizing the day. I, you know, that is too much pressure for me as a mom, you know, seize every day. Like it's your last, I want to seize the season I'm in and have a little bit longer view that gives me more patience, more stamina and more grace for my kids.

You know, that was a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing that. I love that because I think, you know, again, you're not alone. I think so Many of us as moms have had similar situations that are just really, really hard and, you know, learning what we need to learn. We need to learn to ask for help. And sometimes I think when we ask God for help, we do think, well, if God was really there, he'd take this away. Yes. But he knows what we need for our learning opportunities and the struggles, right? And sometimes he just strengthens us to get through it. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And to learn, like you said, learn the lesson that's there for us. Like how, how sad would it be to go endure such a horrible, horrible is maybe too strong word, but such a season of loneliness and darkness for so long and then to take nothing from that, you know, what a waste that would be. And so I'm just, yeah, so grateful for the grace of learning these important lessons in every season, whether it's, you know, a mountain top season or a valley season.

Yeah, totally. And I think too, moms in general, we struggle with, with the guilt. Like I've been doing this for 23 years. I've learned a lot of good things. I've let go of a lot of things I didn't need to worry about. But there's still times when I have the guilt. There's still times when the FOMO comes up and I just have to remind myself it's okay. I don't have to be perfect And I don't have to feel guilty. I mean, at least recognize the guilt and then dig in a little deeper, like you're saying, and say, where's that guilt coming from right now? You know, why did that just pop up? So it's not like we can ever totally get rid of all of that. It's still going to keep coming, but at least we can, we can know that we don't have to go into that guilt and start spiraling down. Right. It's just more of awareness thing there.

Absolutely. And practice the more you practice going through these challenges, it, um, you develop those muscles that you need to reflect instead of spiral, you know, because the default is like panic and fear when we face a conflict that is, you know, a default reaction and understandable. But like you said, there's a better way forward. And when we dig down and reflect that we can, that becomes, we start to shift and over time, our default becomes digging instead of the freak out and panic. And, um, it, it gets easier for sure. When you, when you practice it over time.

Yeah, totally. I was thinking back to the garden example here. It's like all those thoughts, the negative thoughts and the feelings of guilt and failure that come in. They're kind of like the weeds that start growing in our garden and we can sometimes maybe recognize and maybe we pluck them out but unless we get down into the roots they're going to keep coming back.

Yeah absolutely and I think like it's it's the I think the maybe second step forward after just the panic, you know, if you, if your default is the panic, maybe the second step in your maturity might be in your journey with this might be to feel guilt about the guilt. And that happens too when you, but, but I think that, um, it's, it's a good thing to recognize the guilt. It doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong or that you're bad because like you said, even seasoned homeschoolers like you, Molly will have, will bump up against it from time to time. And, but it's how we respond to it. That helps. And I think that's an important lesson for our kids to see us work through these things. Um, I, you know, often say that If we raise our kids with the standard of like, you know, trying to teach enough or do enough, we're not going, that's not going to lead us towards success that's just going to turn our kids into adults who always worry if they're doing enough, You know, and so being able to pass this process on is another beautiful benefit of taking time to reflect and just like you said, have awareness and recognize that tension. You feel like, oh my gosh, there's this gap between what I believe and how I am living, like that's uncomfortable for me to have that gap there. That tension is like is what's making you aware of the the growth opportunity that you have to be more confident or be more free and how you live. And I think that understanding that tension that we feel is as a symptom of growth is another way we can find more freedom and more momentum with this process too.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, because without the tension, we would feel totally comfortable. And we wouldn't feel like we think we're comfortable in the comfort zone, but we're not because we have that tension between where we are and where we think we would like to be. And so even being, staying in the comfort zone is not comfortable.

Right, exactly. And I think that it's because we're, we like simple solutions, don't we? Like again, going back to instant gratification, we would prefer for there to be just like we live in 1 1 place or the other. But because we're complex people with complex lives, and this hero's journey is a complex journey, isn't it that like how boring it would be if Frodo got to Mordor in an afternoon. He just took a helicopter. Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just go around. No 1 would wanna watch that movie. No, nobody would read that or watch that movie. Nobody would do it. And I think the reason we're drawn to that is because we see it in our own lives. But I think the more comfortable we get with this, like holding 2 things that seem like the opposite. For example, my 1 of my close friends is a homeschool mom and she has a child with autism who's non speaking, and he's experiencing some incredible growth with this method of communication she's learning to teach him. And she is experiencing that growth because of 2 seemingly opposite values. On the 1 hand, she has done an amazing job accepting her kid as who he is and not shoving him through arbitrary milestones for the sake of being on that, you know, upward trajectory all the time in the factory. But at the same time as she's accepting him, she's also holding a bigger vision for him. And with this dream, like these big outrageous dreams, so that she can show him what it looks like to be bold and move forward. And because of that combination of acceptance and like challenge or vision, then like we can move forward peacefully. It doesn't have to be like a frantic, like self constant self-improvement or constant improvement of our kids. It can just be, you know, this very steady rate, like 1 little step at a time forward bit by bit is how we can, is the outcome of those 2 values.

That is beautiful. I love that and I heard this quote 1 time that goes went something along like like this that God hundred percent loves us as we are but he also loves us enough to not let us stay there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's perfect. That's a perfect way to sum it up. And I think that you know, if we can apply that in our parenting that's that's going to help a lot, right? Absolutely. Yeah, and to be aware of that And then just 1 last thing on guilt that I was thinking about too, is really, you know, not all guilt is bad. You know, sometimes guilt can push us to making the changes that we need to, in order to reduce that gap and, and improve, you know, so it is a little, it'd be aware of that guilt when it comes up and saying, where's this coming from? Is it, is it true? You know, do I need this to push me right now Or am I okay?

Right. Yeah. Like you said, where is it coming from? Is it coming from this tension that I feel because I need to grow, or is it coming from this external belief system that I don't write that school culture that I don't want to subscribe to? And I need, just need to like pull it out at the root, whichever way you're winning, you know, and growing as a person, when you are able to identify it that way.

Yeah, for sure. Well, that's so good. So good. Well, I know our time is about up here. And so I just want to invite you to share what you have with our audience. I know you mentioned a freebie earlier and let them know where.

Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. So again, I'm so grateful you had me here today, Molly. If anyone listening is struggling with some of these mindset shifts, that's my favorite thing to help homeschool moms with because it doesn't happen overnight and it's not just 1 piece. It's like this puzzle, you know, that you're putting together over time. And many people call that de-schooling where you're stepping out of the school culture mindset about the way the factory is done and into a better way, but you don't really know what that better way looks like yet. I love, I love helping people systematically pull out old beliefs by the root and replace them, you know, with those beautiful flower seeds that you want instead. And so I have a free de-schooling guide. You can find it at deschoolingmadesimple.com. It's a PDF that will take you through step-by-step. And because I know a lot of homeschool moms love a good checklist that type A, you know, in many of us, I'm, I'm personally more type B personality, but my, my gift to you, those of you who are like that is that I took this nebulous process and tried to pull a little pieces of it out into a checklist to help you like sort of like a bridge between the 2 worlds. So you can find yourself moving forward just a little step at a time with this new mindset. And if you want, I'm on Facebook and Instagram at learn with Laura Swain and I'm on there pretty regularly. I would love to answer any questions in the DMs or hear your ideas in the comments about what I'm sharing about this life we're living as born learners on this hero's journey that you're talking about, Molly.

Well, that sounds fantastic. And it is, it is really shifting the homeschool mindset to de-school your brain So that you can

feel a lot better about this journey. Yeah, and just living out the freedom that's already yours. You know, it's so beautiful to be able to do that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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