Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs Bites thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show.

So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 106 with the title, an ordinary bloke with an extraordinary mission. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Stephen Whitten. Stephen is the founder, Menebel Menebel, even, speaker and professional emcee. When I asked Stephen to describe his superpower, he said it is spreading joy and saving the world see smile at a time. Hello, Stephen. Welcome to the show.

Joanne, hi. And I'm so keen to get stuck in. I interrupted you, so, apologies. Yes. It's absolutely I'm delighted to be here. The and that's my joyful radio voice, or I could be an ordinary bloke and just go, yeah. Thanks for having me. It's been it's brilliant.

It's gonna be great.

Bites alright. It's alright, Steve. I mean, I I yeah. I had to have see eventually, I suppose. No. I'm really excited. I mean, we've known each other now a couple of years and,

Yeah. Yeah.

I I'm looking forward to this conversation to find out more about you and what makes you tick.

Oooo Er

and I suspect you're not just an ordinary bloke on an extraordinary mission. There's more to you than that. So tell me more.

Yeah. Do you know what? The ordinary bloke thing actually came from a mutual friend of ours, Jackie Handy. And we were having a chat one day, and I was talking about the challenges of life and where I'd come from and what had happened to me and all that stuff. And and she actually said to me, she said, you know what? Your your real superpower is that you, you know, you're an ordinary bloke. You're as you look, sound, and act like a very typical, you know, Bites, middle aged, hopefully, middle class. I don't know I don't know what that means anymore, but, you know, guy on the street, you're just ordinary. You could be working in a car dealership or in a supermarket or driving a bus or working in an office or running a big business, you know, just an ordinary, ordinary guy. But, yeah, you're right with what I hope is an extraordinary mission, which, came to me through some really dark Bites, actually, which I'll get on to in in a bit.

But, yeah. So that's that's what I'm what I'm all about. And most recently, the latest sort of incarnation of of that journey and my evolution is exactly as you said in the intro, which is about now properly realizing that my my destiny, which I think is a step above purpose, but, you know, the ultimate one is the the destiny is about spreading joy and literally trying to do that one one smile at a time, you know, saving the world by one one person smiling at a time. So

I love that. An ordinary blow. Yeah. Yeah. As I know you, I I can see that in you that you you are unremarkable package. But as I say, I I know that that there's more to you than that. And, you know, you're and I can see you driving a bus, but I can really see you in a car dealership because isn't that your background?

Yeah. It is totally. I started in a car dealership when I was 18. Absolutely loved it. It was an act of rebellion because I'd gone through school, and I'd done quite well academically given that I was a a school that wasn't renowned for its academic prowess, very ordinary secondary modern school in Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire where I grew up, having moved out of London when I was a kid. And I went into the car trade, and my my parents at the time would have had me go into a factory or do something along their line of work. So because I went into something that, to them, was a lot more glamorous, that was was almost a sort of my first act of rebellion. Now interestingly, I I used to I rebelled at them because they said, oh, we'll get you a job at the factory we work in.

And I said, I don't wanna work anywhere that's cold, damp, greasy, smelly, and full of blokes. So I ended up in a car dealership which was cold, damp, greasy, see full of blokes. But the act of rebellion was I got to drive flash cars and take the take them home occasionally and sort of, you know, rub it in my parents' face that there there was me at a young age, you know, a flash young man in the early eighties doing that stuff.

I think I think you shared a photograph on social media not so long ago of you sort of leaning on the bonnet of, a car. Mhmm. I think you put the caption, me in my younger days, the same smile, just more hair or something, wasn't it? I was yeah.

It was I think it was 4 I think I think it said something like 4 stone ago and a lot more hair. And it was a Ford Cortina that we had for sale on the Foraker, which kinda gives my age away a little bit as well. But yeah. And that's where it all started. And and despite my protestations of wanting to get away from the car industry, it still kinda drags you back in.

Yeah. I I I it must give me a lot of life skills. You know? It it you're quite a a chatty, engaging, ordinary bloke. Yeah. And I guess the car dealership gives you that kind of background in talking the hind legs of a donkey and just engaging and talking, having conversations.

Well, it did, but I think I look back on it now, and I I think my main survival tactic as a child in what was a very vibrant, very opinionated, very working class family. And, I mean, in the early days, my parents see very young when they had see. So we had to live with my grandparents, and they still had offspring that were living at home. So there was, like, this sort of big group of adults and one small child that learned very quickly probably that in order to get the attention, I had to be as gobby as some of the adults. And so I think by the time I was 6 or 7, I was probably quite a quite an irritating, precocious little child. If I saw a walking radish shop, now I'd I'd walk away from. But yeah. So I think that's where it started, and I think the car industry then just promoted that and gave me a platform to be even worse.

Was it mainly kind of dealerships for big manufacturers, or was it the, the cars the car showroom on the corner pumping out the sort of the canardlies, if you like?

Yeah. Well, it was it was worse than that. It was a a, you know, not quite a back street used car dealership, but it was a it was a used car dealer in a village that had probably 15 to 20 used cars in stock, and we had a Skoda franchise as well, another part of the business, which was just down the road. And, of course, back then, see Skoda well, that was back in the day where I had a terrible reputation. You know, it was one of those sort of eastern Lockwood countries that no one went anywhere near, except unless you wanted to buy a brand new car and you had no money to buy buy it with. So we did quite well with that. But then, yeah, I I moved out the motor trade for a couple of years and then went back into it working for Vauxhall Finance, which owned by General Motors, so Vauxhall's own finance company, doing collections and debt recovery and stuff like that. And they they must have thought, well, this guy's got some good dealer background.

We're making him an area manager. So I became the youngest area manager they'd ever had and drove driving around in my Vauxhall Carlton, don't know if you remember those. I got that as a company car. So there was me, I think. I was like 22, 23, and I was driving around the Vauxhall Carlton. I thought I was Billy Bigg Wattsit, and which, of course, then it rubbed it on in my parents' face even more.

Was that debt debt collection and repos and stuff, was it?

That's what I started off doing with them. And then after a year, I got promoted into an area manager's job, and I totally I just did not have a clue what I was doing. I mean, it it was it was shockingly bad, really. You know, arse from elbow is is an understatement. I just did not have a clue. How I blagged my way through that is anyone's guess. But, hey, I Lockwood good. I was driving a lovely car.

Eventually did the but the light bulb did go on eventually, and I did get to work out what I was doing. And then that then progressed me into another, what, another another 10 or 11 years working in that kind of environment before I stepped out and went self employed and started doing training and all that sort of stuff. And then, of course, as you know

training to the motor industry?

Yeah. Predominantly. Yeah. Predominantly, which was, you know, again, despite my stations, I always think at the time, I was like, well, I wanna get out of the car industry, but the more you do, the more you realize that your credibility is within that one sector in the main doing that type of work anyway. And, actually, when you go into other organizations, you think that, you know, it's the it's the same crap, different wallpaper, basically.

Tell me a bit about Ben Abel, because that figures it in sort of towards the end of your story. Mhmm. That then we can figure out how you got from where you were to there and and talk about Bites about the jo. You know? How did you discover that you you needed to bring joy to the world because you didn't necessarily have it yourself? Is that is that how

it turned out? Well, yeah. I mean, this is this is the bit where it takes a bit of a dip, so brace yourselves. Effectively, what happened was I jo back a tiny bit. I knew as a teenager bear in mind, I was a teenager in the early eighties, sort of 81, 82, that I I knew I was curious about my sexuality. But back then, we didn't talk about Bites, and those that did came out fully as as gay or hid it and didn't say or do anything. But I know that there were other boys of my age that were curious as well. And, you know, because of the sort of, dare I say, heteronormative part of that, managed to create a life that was that was normal in in the face of the the society, if you like. So yeah.

So project forward 30 odd years working in the car industry. I'd been I'd got married, married, and I met and married the prettiest girl in the village when I was working in the car dealership. We got married very young. We had 2 children fairly quickly. We had the mortgage. We had the house. We had all the bits and pieces. And the car industry and everything I was doing in it facilitated that.

But working in that industry also meant that you were under pressure, stressed, anxious about where your next paycheck was coming from, how big it was gonna be, and all that stuff. And, with all that in mind, eventually, that that was a bubble that ended up bursting and in the most unpleasant, horrible way that I can imagine. And, you know, to this day, I still live with the regret and the and the hate for what happened there and and, you know, the the, remorse for what my now ex wife and my one child in particular feel that I did by coming out, by declaring the truth, and being authentically My marriage disintegrated. My family broke up, and I came out at the same time. So it was like, well, there's nothing else that can go what could possibly go wrong now? Or we'll just throw bankruptcy into that mix as well. Oh, hang on a minute. Here comes a solicitor with some divorce papers. That'll do the trick.

But yeah, so that's where I went. And then during the course of 2020, I realized that I wasn't the only person of a certain age in the car industry that had had those issues. So I reached out to some leaders and said, look, got this idea. I think we need to support our colleagues. What do you think? And immediately picked up some fantastic supporters and some great people who became advocates and ambassadors for us. And so that's how the the men able movement began. So so I'll answer your question.

Yeah. So you say you look back on it, and it was a dark time, and things didn't go as smoothly as you'd hoped. You said you had some sort of regrets or certainly around your your your family, if you like. So on reflection, where where what could you have done differently, or where did it go wrong? Was it the stress you were under? Was it just?

Yeah. I mean, well, I've I I mean, I suppose re yeah. Regret's a big word, isn't it? What I think I should have done was to have been brave enough and big enough to have owned it when I was 18, and be honest with, you know, the people around me. But at that time, I was fearful, you know. And the fact that that it was, you know, not not a completely sort of totally gay or totally straight thing, that it was easy for me to sort of cover one part of that up and and just do and outside of that, you know, I'm not gonna that sound you know, my ex wife will say that's manipulative and all that. It it's not. It genuinely is the case that I've met her, fell in love with her, loved her, and adored her deeply. And so at that point, was like, no.

This is you know, Bites let's put that other bit in a in a box and leave it there. But, of course, it didn't stay there, did it? It simmered away and you know? And then when the conversation happened, when it literally was timed with the pandemic and the business collapsing and having all of that as well. I I didn't get the reaction from a few people, including my ex wife, that I thought I would have done. I don't know why. I don't know why I had believed or naively thought that she would be like, oh, okay. That's fine. You know? Well, now I just know something more about you that I didn't know before. Let's go to Tesco's.

I didn't I didn't expect that, but I didn't expect the reaction that I did get. Mhmm. What that did do was see me down a very dark path of thinking Wellbeing. And I don't mean to trigger anyone who's listening here, but, you know, there were a couple of points where I thought fast moving train's got more appeal than dealing with this rubbish. And it's only when you get there that you think, that's not me, you know.

People often ask me, would I do think differently if I had my life again? Things like this. And I I always say that I I love I love my family. My coming out story was not a smooth ride, but it the result has been very positive. But people often say, yeah, what would you do differently? I said, well, I wouldn't change a thing because I've got 2 fantastic children that wouldn't be alive, wouldn't be in my life now, wouldn't be amazing, had I done something different at the age of 18, 17, or 15, or or 10, or whatever years old. So Yeah. I I have to say, I would not change a thing. Mhmm. Because otherwise, I I wish they'd erase you if you like.

And I think that's that always keeps me focused that, yeah, I I've had a whole life. I've had a big life. I'm sure you've had a an amazing life doing what you Wellbeing, building that family. But it's it's difficult to regret your child's birth.

Oh, yeah. No. And I don't I don't regret that at all. I mean, I think I still would Happen gone ahead and, you know, that would have happened. But what it would have done is given me the chance, you know, to make the right choices way back then, and also give my my now ex wife, as I say, the the chance to make an informed decision as well.

Mhmm. Bites not easy when everything comes together, you see the pandemic, the business failing, your awakening to your own identity, and something to do about that. Bites everything kind of car crashes at once sometimes, doesn't it? And you just you wanna just start again.

Well, yeah. That was exactly it. That was exactly it. And, you know, to be my age, you know, at the time, what, 53, to then be facing, you know, financial ruin, which some would argue was self imposed, but also, you know, that disintegration of of a loving family environment and, you know, losing the person that you would hope to have grown old with. You know, all of that together. And that's not a woe is me story. That's just a that's a accepting getting to a point of accepting that's the realistic situation that happened. You know, there's lots of other stuff that, obviously, I wouldn't share that, obviously, she knows about that.

You know, she would argue, well, that was that was the crux of it all. Because, again, that's the other thing that the motor trade does is it the divorce rates are very high because paint in the bits in between the lines what you want. But suffice to say, when you put a lot of people together in the same environment, and they're stressed and anxious and under pressure, they can have a tendency to take solace in each

other. You know

what I'm saying? And so, of course, you throw that into the mix as well, and and suddenly, Bites, yeah, it's it's a bit of a hotbed for, you know, all sorts of stuff to to happen. I'm sure that's not unique to the car industry. I hear a lot about that in other industries as well. But, you know, yeah, all of that and everything, as you say, collapsed at the beginning of 2020, and that was my year to go well. I either genuinely do go off and reinvent myself as a bus driver and go and do something else or think seriously about what can I do? And once I'd started the ball rolling with the men able, and I could see that, actually, yeah, this is I've got something here. This is where it started to feel that I was now fulfilling my purpose for the first time ever.

Emanable, just tell us a bit about what sparked it. I mean, you've given us a bit of hint, you know, what what was the kind of the big idea? What's its purpose? And who do you does it have most success with at the moment?

So it was it was coming from the point of, I know I need to I want to do something that supports

predominantly men in the industry, but

then realizing very quickly that, actually, this isn't a see then then the industry has a big problem with recruiting in its own likeness. It also has a big problem with diversity and inclusion. There's lots of work going on in likeness. It also has a big problem with diversity and inclusion. There's lots of work going on in this area, but it's still a very male dominated masculine industry. And as a result, we're not attracting the right people. We're not gate we're not keeping the right people. So this point about mental health became rapidly about diversity and inclusion and inclusivity and equity and everything else.

And I then coined a phrase which was, if we want to achieve diversity and inclusion in the automotive industry, we have to address men's mental health. Because what's going on there and the reason that we have homophily, which is the, you know, recruiting in your own likeness, the reason that we have that is that there are an awful lot of men who have progressed into senior positions, and out of fear or lack of confidence or low self esteem or whatever it is, what they do because they don't wanna take a risk and they don't wanna put their own situation in jeopardy, what they end up doing is they continue to recruit people who look, sound, and act like them. So someone comes along who's a bit different, a bit quirky, doesn't look like them, hasn't got the same background, doesn't dress like them, whatever it might be. So that person comes Belonging, and suddenly that poses a, oh, that's gonna be a challenge. You know? Actually, what I want is somebody who can drop in the seat and get up to speed quickly. Now that doesn't work either because what we end up with in the car industry is a revolving door and people that go from business to business to business. And and I've said it a few Bites. We get, you know, a guy will go for a job and he's see, you know, he wears as a badge of honor the fact that he's done 18 months with that business and 6 months with that one and 2 years there and 3 years there.

Well, that's not a badge of honor. That's telling that's telling you something. That's a pattern. So MEN ABLE set out with that initial men's mental health thing, rapidly became about diversity and inclusion. As rapidly now, we evolved that to become about mental wealth, not mental health, because that's about in everything around getting people to have the right energy and the right approach to this. And like I said, in the most recent few days or weeks, we're starting to talk more about, well, well, what brings you joy? You know, let's let's not focus on the dark down stuff because no one wants to talk about that. But let's focus on what you can do to be more positive and upbeat.

All male or engineering or workshoppy type environments or dealership environments that you described tend to be, as you say, a bit filled by a monoculture, a typical ordinary bloke type. And the environment can all Change environments can be quite toxic. And survivor of the fittest, the alpha male, and everyone sort of falling in behind. You know, you see you see the stereotypes. It's it's quite a cruel environment if you're if you're different. And I think, you know, maybe not maybe not today, but certainly not too distant past. Being queer, being gay, being bi was a was a weakness that people used to latch on. I've heard of stories about people locking people in cupboards and things because they were gay or, you know, in the in the all in the aim of of banter and all good fun and a bit of a laugh.

Oh, a 100%. I mean, I still hear the odd little story about it, but the the the key one is the microaggressions. You know, it's the questions and it's the comments that get aimed at at you, and I've never had any of that. And part of that is because I recognized that I was probably a part of that engine of of throwing out that banter, in inverted commas. But also, that ordinary bloke thing is actually, I see that to to effect, because I'll start off a talk or a conversation with a group, and I'll, you know, I'll just act and look and sound as I am. But I'll wear a pink shirt with matching socks and pink laces. And notice that 1 or 2 people in the room have have clocked that and go, hang on a minute. This is this guy's a bit different.

And then I'll flash my rainbow bracelet, and I'll, you know, act up being a bit camp and throw a few gay innuendos in there and suddenly just say to them, look, I'm in the most masculine environment you could be in, but I really don't give a shit. I don't care. You know, you can throw whatever you want at me, but just do not throw that banter and that stuff at a 17 year old person, boy or girl, who's come to work in your business to to to do an apprenticeship because they wanna, you know, work with cars. And suddenly, they find that they're in an environment where, you know, that conversation over coffee. Have you got a girlfriend then, Jamie? Come on, are you out are you out on you out on Saturday night? You're gonna pull a few birds? And so Jamie now can't say, well, no, actually, because, you know, I'm gay and I've got a boyfriend. Because the the environment is is too if it's not toxic, it's certainly not safe to to do that. If you are like I was, a 17, 18 year old lad who, 1, is questioning it, and 2, thinks this is this is dangerous for me to, you know, they not dangerous in a physical harm way, although that could be the case, but dangerous certainly mentally.

A really tough culture to kind of overcome because it's so ingrained and so part of the way it is, if you like. And it's not not surprised that, you know, you you almost have to fix the problem before you can change the problem. It's that chicken and egg, isn't it? How do you how do you dilute the culture with difference when difference is driven out?

Well, you asked me at the beginning of of that. I was conscious. I didn't quite answer the question previously, which was about how what successes are we having with that. The point is that where we got to was that to go out there and be the and say, look, the culture needs to change. This is about culture. You know? And I've got a real it it was a great phrase used by a politician a few weeks ago, which is jo one likes the guy that shouts iceberg. And for the last 3 years, I've been that guy that's shouting iceberg, whilst parts of the car industry have been, well, let's just get our deck chairs back in the right place, you know, in an in a sink on a sinking ship sort of thing. And as a result, we're now talking about, oh, we're not recruiting the right enough people.

We're not keeping the right people. We're not doing this. We're not doing that. So one of the things that I did with Men Abel was created an accreditation program called Well-being Winners. And what we do with that is we go in and we do an assessment, and we look at this from a perspective of well-being. Now one of my great supporters actually said that the problem you've got, Steve, is that you're going to a you're going to an industry with a solution to a problem they don't perceive they have. And I was like, wow. Yeah.

Bites and that stuck with me because the point is what they do and there's a there's a charity that the industry relies on that's they're great. They do a great job. But what we've got is big companies that will happily pay big lumps of money to them every year and put posters on the wall saying, if, you know, if you've got a problem, ring this number. Or they'll have a charity cake sale or whatever it might be. But what they're not getting to is the crux of the issue that at a management level, you're still employing guys like me who were who are aggressive bullies, you know, have got take the wrong kind of approach, if that makes sense. Now I like to think that's changing, but it's not changing quickly.

Yeah. I well, I've I've done some work with big organizations, the defense contractors and car manufacturers, and they have they have a very similar problem with the the shop floor, the hourly paid as opposed to salary people that that culture is is so deep and so ingrained that even even now, and these big Joanne these are big organizations who have major DNI programs, HR teams, big corporaty type environments, and they still struggle to to to to evolve the culture. I'm not I said they haven't made any difference, but it's it is the iceberg yet or the ship. How do you turn around the supertanker and avoid the iceberg? It's you gotta stop first before you can go backwards or before you can before you can maneuver. And it that's the that's the real Change is it's almost generational to make some of these changes. It it it is generational. And I and I've said as well that, you know, take the car industry. When you're geared

And if you are the kind of person that's grown up in one industry, you probably only know of 1 or 2 ways to deliver those objectives. And that's where we get the familiarity, the the the same old, same old. And, you know, very few people are prepared to take a bit of a risk and go, let's try something a bit different here. Let's try this a different way. Let's employ some different people. You know, I saw I was went and had a a breakfast with somebody the other day in a garden center, and the waitress, you know, one side of her hair was blue, the other side was was pink. She was wearing dungarees, and she had what looked like a paper clip hanging out of her ear. I do not and I thought to myself, she she'd be great in front of customers because she was wonderful with us.

And I thought, I don't know any managers in the industry I've described that would go, I'm gonna employ her as a car salesperson.

Especially not in the premium tier, you know, the BMW, the Mercedes, the Audi, the Bentley. It just wouldn't happen, would it? I hope. I hope. And, yeah, she'd be Yeah.

You know, she'd be brilliant. She'd be brilliant.

On the used car forecourt, maybe, but not on the, not in the premium brands. And I I just worked with a a global clothing brand. And I was at I was at at the bar the night before the the main do, and people were talking about their branch recruitment see. And they said, oh, yeah. I saw something the other way the other day. And they just weren't our brand. They had this and they had that. And I thought, wow.

You've you've judged that personal appearance because that they didn't meet your culture, your brand. I mean, you know, you argue about these brands and culture fit and all these kind of things. But somehow, you have to, in order to to break the mold, you have to you have to break the mold. And that's that's sounds like an oxymoron. But you you have to be decisive that Joanne looking for chain because you'd be surprised how many customers go, wow. Well done. Fantastic. Fabulous.

Yeah. Yeah. She's just like my daughter. She's just like my son. Yeah. And I do do you think we we we value and and I I use the phrase gifted jerk for one of a better way of describing it is that you get people who are maybe top salespeople, you know, the the the jet that had the king of the hill. You know, the almost invincible Joanne fire them because they are they they are lifeblood. They keep the the ship afloat.

But they are then allowed to get away with everything they do. You know, we can't see anything to them because they're they're our top salesman. And, of course, as long as you give permission for that person to continue and not challenge them or risk them walking, then you're never gonna break that change, are you?

I do you know what? I see that a lot, and I've heard that a lot over the years. And even recently with one of the one of the, you know, really progressive businesses that we're working with, They took the well-being winners. They're doing everything that we've asked them to do, but there's still an element of, see have I've got one Safety, and it always begins with the phrase, yes, but. Right? But, yes, but I've got one sales exec, one salesman who sell you know, he's got lots of floors, and he may not do this and do that, but he sells 25 cars a month. You know. And then you go, well, yeah, but what what's the trail of destruction that he's leaving? Because his customer service measurements are crap. His profitability is rubbish. His part exchange appraisals are poorly done.

And, yes, he might sell 25 cars a month, but actually, how many potential customers is he pissing off in the meantime? Because he won't talk to them unless they're actually gonna buy a car that day. And so you're getting customers coming in who are not having a great experience, and they're going to shop somewhere else or eventually shopping somewhere on shopping online, you know.

So it's almost an interesting thing. You you as an industry have got to call that out and make an independent stand and say, yeah, this this this this person isn't working, and then give them a bad reference.

Yeah. Yeah. But it it's an iceberg.

I know. Yeah. I know.

Do you know what I mean? It's it's that. And, you know, and I think the point about the, you know, the the lovely girl that that served me last week with the the blue and pink hair is that what will happen in if she went for a job at one of these play places. And I gotta see, not all, because there are a lot of very progressive ones that, you know, they're they're not I'm tarring them all with the same brush. It's not all the same. But the vast majority would look at her, and they would they wouldn't embrace the difference. They'd see the deficit, which is a phrase that I think Harvard used around this whole thing about DEI, and I love that. I just think that is so true that we don't embrace what's different and unique and beautiful about this person. All we see is there's a Decaf deficit.

see, but I can't put her in front of customers because they they will make a judgement. No, they won't. You know? The 90 year old bloke who comes in and she doesn't look anything like he's used to, well, they're gonna if they're gonna make a judgment, they're gonna make a judgment about anything. So they're gonna make a judgment about a girl with pink or blue hair. Equally, they're gonna make a judgment about a 57 year old guy guy with pink socks and pink laces, which is why I do it.

When I when I I first came out, going back to 2007, so Bites 7 or 8 years ago, I well, I was scratching around Belonging for some some income as you do. You first go out on your own. I was, one of my network called out for Belonging for an associate who could help them with this workplace ergonomics. You know, where you you measure the chairs and you get people to sit at their desk right, and you can lower things and raise things, get the right Change. And she wanted to build up a little team of people who could do the the the ergonomic assessments for her. So she put a shout out on Facebook or our network, and I said, oh, I'd have to give that a go. I fancy a bit of that. And a few weeks later, she wrote back and said, Jo, could we have a coffee? I was, oh, great.

So we had see evidence coffee and she said, Jo, it's it's not me. It's not me. I I I I think you're great, but I'm worried about my customers. What will they think of you if you turn up? I went, oh, what do you mean? She said, well, you're Joanne. And what if they what if they they they won't they won't tell me that that that there's a problem. They'll just they'll just stop buying from me because of you. And I and I said, well, that's in your head, not in their head. And I I coined this phrase, Bites discrimination by proxy.

It's not me. It's what it's what other people will think that it reflect on me. Actually, it's your own insecurity. And I said, well, how about I strip that around? What if they go, wow, you've got Jo. She's amazing. You've got trans people as well. We've got queer people. see you you're brilliant.

You sent me into a university. You sent me into a public sector. You see the great DI policy. So you you just frame me as a as a as a challenge, not as an asset, someone who could potentially turn customers on and not off. And see was so blocked by the what will people think of her, because it reflected on her. I think a lot of DNI hires, you can trace back to that. If I hire a queer bloke, well, they think I'm queer type thing, isn't it?

Sort of, you

know, what what yeah. What's wrong with you if you hire someone who's queer with big socks?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd you know, I still see elements of that, pockets of that. I mean, in the last year or so, as you know, because I've talked to you about some of this, I've done some bits and and some events and some keynotes and emceeing some conferences, where I've been I've been very open about Bites, you know. I talk openly about my TikTok handle that I created was the bisexual granddad, you know. Well, some people will like that, some won't.

You know that I use a bit of innuendo occasionally, and some of that's a bit close to Julian Clary esque type of innuendo. And I have a very firm view that if I use an innuendo and someone takes that to mean have a smutty or dirty meaning, well, that's in their mind, not mine, you know? And and so that's that's got me more and more to a place of thinking, well, at the end of the day, I kinda screwed up the life that I had. That was on a trajectory to be looking and feeling everything like a typically successful, you know, upper upper working class family kind of life. Screwed that up, lost the people closest to me, went down that dark route of I could just throw it all in if I want to, and got to a place of like, well, what choice have I got left now? You know, as I as I wrote on a post a couple of years ago, I've got no more f's to give when I'd completely run out of money and everything else. I ran out of those f's to give. You know what I mean? Right? So and that's where I'm I've built back up from and gone, well, now my mission is to spread joy one smile at a time. You know, if somebody said to me, oh, you're wearing pink socks and pink laces, I go, oh, yeah. No.

They're great, aren't they? And then they go with the shirt. And I won't show you the color of my pants, you know, and have a little bit of Joanne, suddenly went all camp there when I did that, you know, Bites, and, and I'll make a thing of it. And and what it's done, actually, what I'm getting is, is a great response from people. And, actually, particularly in the motor trade, and I'm I'm becoming quite known for it. And if that is what I have to do as an ordinary bloke to give other people permission to be themselves, And that gradually, one smile at a time, gets joy back into the industry and back into what we're doing and gets them recruiting the right people, keeping the right people, then, you know, I'm probably not gonna achieve it in my lifetime, but it's it's certainly not a bad place to be on the journey compared to where I was.

It's extremely stressful living your life by other people's rules. First of all, there's so many rules out there that people different people will have different rules. And when you're covering, masking, hiding, suppressing who you are, it's extremely exhausting. You know, we talked about yeah. You touched on psychological safety earlier. You talked on the you know, we talked about bringing your whole see to work, these kind of things. When you're when you're having to be this other person for for other people's convenience, for their comfortability. Bites it's a dark place, and it's it's a no win.

And I I I always love the quote that, Chris Evans, the, the the BBC broadcaster who he popped on to Top Gear for a while. He always said, you know, he's you gotta be Marmite. Half the world will love you and half the world will hate you. The people who love you really, really love you. Mhmm. And I I always think this is a great way of of only getting inquiries people who want to do business with you. Yeah. True.

If half the world don't like me or don't know what I stand for, who I am, that's great. I I don't have to listen to them. I don't have to have that lecture. Yeah. Whereas people engage with me love me for who I am, and I so I I often say I'm very privileged that I go go through with the world as a as a trans woman. University meeting people who I get on really well with, who have a lot of time for me. Mhmm. So I think polarizing the audience is is a good thing.

I think being being unashamedly you with your pink socks, with your with whatever color underpants you're wearing that day on the inside, maybe not on the outside. You you you get more work. And I I wouldn't you rather have work for who you are rather than for who they want you to be?

Oh, 100%. I mean, I I got invited to, an event about 18 months ago, and it was at the Royal Air Force Club in Piccadilly. Now I thought, right, this is gonna be like stepping back in time. Right? And I I did have at one point a hankering to go in the Royal Air Force and never did. Bites, anyway, along came the memo, you know, with the the requirements, you know, here's how you, you know, how you dress and all the rest of it. And it was very, very strict. It meant lounge, lounge suits, and the tie must be worn at all times in the building. So I looked at it, and I thought, do you know what? At one point in my life, in my career, I had probably 200 ties in my collection.

And I was known for wearing ties that were, you know, a bit out there and all the rest of it. And I thought, I am not gonna go to this event in a gray suit with a gray pinstripe tie and just look and sound like everyone else. So I found the loudest, brightest blue and pink paisley tie that I could find, all of that. And I go, yeah. Look at see rainbow badge I'm wearing on this on this jacket as well. And, funnily enough, I was it was accepted in the end, but it it was almost a bit of a statement on my part that, you know, if I have to abide by your rules, I'm gonna do that in my own way. Mhmm.

Yeah. I I look back, and do you think all these dress codes, you know, all the as you say, black tie, white tie, wing collar, buff and down collars, all these kind of things, and patent shoes, oxford. Yeah. All this kind of yeah. You think about all this and you think, so as a transfer, what's my dress code? You know? I'm I'm already I'm already turning up an address. I mean, that breaks half the mold and half the rules that you you were imagining. So I didn't think, Wellbeing, you know, I'm gonna say the f word. Yeah.

Fuck it. You know, who cares? You know? What's the point in trying to conform to a rule that I don't fit into in the 1st place? So Yeah. Yeah. But yep. Bites it takes I don't know. Takes certain maturity or or certain stage of your life where you are able to just as you say, there are no more f's to give in this situation where you've plateaued and found that you, and that you're prepared to just be that you without without who cares who judges you now? I I don't judge me what you like. I I don't have to listen to your opinion or even respect it. I just go find that that's it says more about you than it does about me.

Yeah. But you get to that stage in life where where you can live that way, can't you? And it was taking you a while to realize that.

Yeah. And I think anyone who who, you know, we're I think I'm a bit older than you, aren't I, but we're similar age group, aren't we? And, you know, anyone who's grown up in the areas that we did, you know, you grew up being compliant to that, you know, looking, acting, sounding in a certain way based on the people around you. And, you know, and and like you say, I've I've, you know, I made a Belonging out of that. I made a lifetime out of doing exactly what I thought was expected. And, you know, if I have to wear a suit and I have to wear a tie, then I'm gonna wear something that no one else is wearing that looks a bit more flamboyant than anyone else's. And I always did that. And Bites you see, now I'm just at the nah. Just do you know what? All that time spent wondering what other people were thinking and who was judging me.

Well, how did that turn out? Well, it didn't. I lost everything. So now I'm at the well, I am what I am. If you don't like that, jog on.

You talked about bringing joy to the world and, how that is kind of your new new passion. Yep. As you said, saving the world once a while at a time. How do you define joy? What does joy mean to you then? Well, do you know what?

I bounced this around a few friends over the weekend, and I had one one my best friend came back and said, oh, see said, I'm not sure about the word joy or joyful, he said. Because it come comes up with words of connotations of sort of I I guess see was getting that sort of a sexual nature and, you know, passion and all of that. And I was like, wow. That that works even more for me. I think joy is about, you know, doing well, doing what makes you Happen, you know, doing what makes you happy. And it doesn't matter even if your circumstances are such that, you know, financially, you have to be in a certain place or you have to be in a certain job. You know, you can still find ways of of having joy or giving joy or participating in joy with other people and, or whatever it might be. So, you know, I see people leaving what might be a fairly mundane job and then going and, you know, coaching a a child's football team in the evening, you know, and they do that because it gives them immense joy.

You and I are involved in the Professional Speaking Association and, you know, as as much as that may have its challenges at times, it gives us immense joy. We're around people who give freely and generously of of of the joy in their lives. And, yeah, I mean, for me, I I made that commitment to myself a year ago to only do what gives me joy. So if you're gonna ask me to turn up and, you know, to an event, and you're then gonna start telling me what I can wear, what I can say, what I can do, how I have to have to act, that is going to suck the joy out of see, and I'm gonna get to a point where I'm like, I don't do I really wanna do this?

Yeah. Yeah. No. No. You no. You're right. I always think about joy as being words are popping into my head off, freedom. And what do I mean by freedom? It's not unbounded freedom, but it's it's it's freedom within broad parameters.

And I when I was going through my my my exploration and journey and coming out, I talked about the concept of cage, Safety park, and Serengeti. Mhmm. So the Cage is where you're living under see of acid rules. You know, you're by permission, having to behave, having to live in that restricted environment. Serengeti is where you're you're off piste. You're living in in the wild, you know, trying to fight fight for your space in the water or not getting eaten by a lion or something or risk of poachers killing you or cutting your tusks off, whatever it may be. And the safari park is kind of Bites of half and half where you've got fences, but they're miles apart. There's no predators in your cage if you like.

Someone chucks meat over and you can you can feast on that or whatever, whatever you eat. And you've got you've got mates, friends, and people to keep you happy. And so you but you've you're the as I say, the fence is so far apart, you don't bump into them. Or if you do, it does it they don't seem that restrictive anymore because you've got plenty of other ground. So my joy was finding my safari park, and that's the that's the analogy I used, was to escape the cage. Live within societal rules broadly, because I don't wanna be anarchic and go and live in the wild, Mhmm. And finding this safari park where I could coexist with others with huge great fences around, but no but no but no perceived barriers to the way I wanted to live. And jo I completely understand your your concept of of of joy.

And I also Happen discovered sufficiency as a term as well. I don't need everything. I don't need to acquire bigger, faster, thicker, whatever it may be, whatever analogy. I'm looking for sufficient sufficient resources food, money, comfort, love, house, whatever it may see, to enable that that joy of freedom in my safari park, if you like. So, yeah, it it's reevaluating what's important, I think. The earliest stage of my life was on this big up climb where you you want stuff, don't you? You go on bigger. I want to be impressive people with all this stuff. And now I just joy is freedom and sufficiency for me.

Yeah. I love that. I'm probably gonna nick that Safety Park analogy if I may, but,

Published a blog. You're welcome to to read it.

When when I I to see, I poked this word joyful out to a few friends, and loads of them came back as, oh my god. That is so you. Yes. It's very much what you're about. But my my best friend who I I trust, you know, more than anyone came back and he went, yeah. I'm not sure about the word joyful. It means bliss, pleasure, peace, and passion. So I wrote I just wrote back and went, exactly.

So he wasn't sure about the word joyful, but he answered the question for me. He was like, well, it's exactly what I'm getting at. And, I mean, I've I've my exam an example I would use is that two and a half years ago, I moved out of a very nice, large, detached house in a very nice area, you know, post the divorce, and moved into a a small rented flat, you know, that overlooks a car wash. And I remember when I was back in the house and we were there 20 years in that house, every Christmas would be the usual sort of let's go around and give the neighbors their Christmas cards. And, you know, if you happen to catch 1 in the street as they were coming home and parking their car, you know, you'd go to stop and have a bit of a conversation. Joanne this, or I'm going see, or I've gotta run here, or whatever. And I never really noticed that before until I came here to this block of flats where there are a fairly transient population of people coming in and out renting. It's it's a lovely block of flats, beautiful flats, nice area, but it's got a good proportion of renters.

I moved in here and on in on the 1st October, and on the 1st December, one of my neighbors knocked on the door and gave me a Christmas card and a bottle of wine, and she came in and we sat and had a chat for 2 hours. And I thought, in 20 years living in that really nice area where we were all competing over who's, you know, who's got the cleanest curtains, who drives the nice nicest car, who went on the best holiday, didn't have any of that, moved to this place that's a lot more grounded and a lot more people not competing for for attention, and and everyone's just looking out for each other. It was lovely. So hence, I'm I'm in on the safari park thing.

I I wonder that I'm just curious. This is me just checking my bias about it. So the people you sent the the request for how does jo sound to you, were they mainly male identifying?

No. Actually, an well, no. Just one of them was.

I just wonder, because is there a connotation where where men aren't allowed to use the word joy? Is is it is it a feminine connotation? That's a good point.

That's a really good point. Yeah, possibly. But it was my my business mentor on Saturday morning, actually, who said to me that he sees that the thread that runs between my three the three elements of my business, see men, Abel, me as a speaker, me as an MC, the thread that runs through those are great experiences. Now he said, I'm not overly keen on the word great. You have to think of another word for great, and it was me that came up with the word joyful. So for me, that that's the thread that joins all 3 of them together. So whether you're an employer looking to up the ante on well-being in your business, that's about creating joyful experiences. Hiring me as a speaker is about inspiring people to have great experiences or as an emcee creating a great event.

And when I put that into a summary and sent that out to all my friends, interesting that most of my friends are women, isn't it? Which I it's fascinating. But anyway, I don't know if there's anything there. But when I sent that all out, yes, you're right. The only one who came back and questioned joyful was my male best friend.

Yeah. I I I quite relate to the word. And, essentially, you you you talk about joyful experiences. I mean, I I my mantra or the my kind of thing I I I promote is positive people experiences. So, yeah, it's not great. I use I use the word positive, and it's around creating that positive experience of interacting with me, interacting with your customers, interacting with your potential candidates in the hiring process, your stakeholders, whatever it may be. So, yeah, it's making sure that every interaction you have from a people perspective is positive. Mhmm.

You know, taking that analogy to you, then we're joyful. And I think that's that's a really positive well, that's a joyful way of looking at the world.

Yeah. Wellbeing one thing I did, I had to run a conference Joanne an awards night, actually, before Christmas. And, one of the little things I do with my introduction is it involves a bit of confetti and glitter. And the event Happen, I met up with one of them for lunch last week, and and she said to me she said, you know, the hotel were cursing you that and still are because everywhere they look, they keep finding your glitter and your confetti. And I said, I know. Even on the diet, although I just threw a handful of it up on stage, it went everywhere. It just seemed to find its way into the gents, into the all over the stairs, and so on and so on. So I said, well, that's what happens when you spread a little sparkle in a little stardust.

Right? Who knows where it's gonna end up? Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop doing it.

Well, I've seen your MC gig, and I've seen you on stage, and you always sort of reach into your suit pocket or your trouser pocket, and you pull out some sparkles and and cast them. And do do you do you walk through life with glitter and sparkles in your pocket just in case?

Well, I more more and more times, I think to myself I should do, but there's gonna be a place where I'm gonna do that, and it's, you know, it's gonna land in someone's coffee, or it's I'm gonna hack somebody off. But, yeah. It wouldn't be a bad thing, actually. It was what a great experiment to try. I mean, try it on the tube or on a train or

Yeah. Maybe if you've got biodegradable sort of, you know, modern wedding confetti sort of thing that doesn't stain and doesn't, Yeah. Doesn't damage the planet or something maybe.

Yeah. No. No. All of this is. The only thing I would say is that my flat is also full of it because, obviously, where I've done exactly what you've said and put it in the pockets of trousers and jeans and so on is that I've now see to have it everywhere. So it it it finds its way into the washing machine and under furniture.

It's bad enough if you leave a tissue in the pocket of a of a dress

Oh, I know.

And wash that. I mean, imagine, yeah, sort of having sparkles in the pocket of all your trousers. Yeah. That's gonna be a real colorful experience.

Yeah. When you shake that out after taking out the see blow dryer or whatever, it's yeah.

see, it's been absolutely fascinating. I mean, I'm I'm glad we're friends, and I'm I'm glad we get to see Dua on a regular basis. So it's been an honor to have you on the show today and hear about you bringing joy. And you may say you're just an ordinary bird. I don't think you're an ordinary bird. You you you Happen done extraordinary things. You've overcome extraordinary challenges in your life, and I'm sure you still will. And and you've done that with a smile and with a purpose to bring joy.

So thank you so much. How Joanne people get hold of you?

Well well, thank you, Veer. It's very kind words as well, and the feeling's mutual, Joanne. You know, I think the world of yours, you know. So, thank you for giving me the opportunity. But, yeah, if anyone wants to get in touch, I'm all over LinkedIn, spreading stardust all over that platform at stephenjwitton. That's Stephen with a "ph", and Whitten is W-H-I-T-T-O-N. My website is https://menable.org. That's menable.org.

Or my main website, which needs to change because it doesn't reflect the sparkly stuff we've just been talking about, is, stephenjwitton.co.uk. So, I'm very up for having chats and sprinkling a bit of stardust on whoever needs it.

Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.

And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.