Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Join me in the future, then. Please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk, that's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places.
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Striving for Fairness
The Inclusion Bites Podcast
Striving for Fairness
JL
Speaker
Joanne Lockwood
PP
Speaker
Pamela Permalloo Bass
Joanne Lockwood hosts Pamela Permalloo Bass, an EDI coach, discussing fairness in organizational inclusion, focusing on challenges like systemic barriers in the NHS. They explore trust, socioeconomic factors, and the complexity of creating equitable workplaces, revealing deep insights into diversity, equity, and dismantling unfair structures.
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“I think it's quite a generic piece of language, fairness, because depending on your own experiences, whether it's cultural, societal, social, you'll have a different perspective of what fairness really means.”
“So it's about how do we create equity in the system to ensure we're amplifying people who are stuck or not seen or not viewed as capable for whatever reason.”
“Individuals play a part, but they are not key in dismantling unfairness within organisations. It has to be an organisational, structural decision to actively do things differently.”
“We're trying to create systems and fixing systems where we haven't necessarily engaged with the people who are affected to ask them why they haven't progressed.”
“Actually, to me, it feels like, firstly, it's a complete waste of money, but it also is sidetracking from all the other underfunded resourcing that's going into the public sector, which is so much needed, really, in particular, some very key areas in our country.”
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So plug in the advance, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 98 with the title striving for fairness, and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Pamela Permalloo Bass. Pamela is the EDI coach and consultant and when I asked Pamela to describe her superbass, she said, the skill of intently listening with empathy. Hello, Pamela. Welcome to the show.
Hi, Jo. Hi. Thank you so much for inviting me and it's an absolute privilege to be here this morning, particularly at the start of the year. This is one of my first meetings of the year, so it feels very exciting. So thank you very much.
Yeah, as we were saying in the green room before we've gone live that we haven't spoken for two or three years, it's been absolutely fantastic to catch up and have a good natter before we record the podcast.
Yeah, absolutely. I think we needed more than the designated 30 minutes to have a proper catch up. We've had a good. Too many years have gone by.
Yeah, they have. Anyway, we've caught up now. So, Pavana, tell me about striving for fairness. Why is that important to.
Mean? You've known me for a good couple of years now and I've spent most of my life and my working career working in the field of diversity and inclusion. We're using the word diversity, equity, inclusion more and more now in organisational spaces. But 2030 years ago, it wasn't language that was used. And I like the word fairness because I think it really brings out what I've always strived to do on a daily basis, both in my work and in my personal life. And I think over the years, it's been great that more and more people and professionals are on board in the DNI space.
Yeah, fairness is. I find sometimes it's a tough word because people want fairness and they also want meritocracy, but they don't always balance the two out fairly oxymoron. I appreciate. People have their own perception of what fair means, don't they?
Yeah. And I think it's quite a generic piece of language, fairness, because depending on your own experiences, whether it's cultural, societal, social, you'll have a different perspective of what fairness really means. But I think for me, when we're using fairness in the world we're in right now, in the UK, when we're looking at it from a UK perspective, I think we can link it to issues around socioeconomic status. We touched on privilege as a concept in the green room. And there's also aspects of fairness that really permeate in organisations, particularly organisations that are hierarchical. So I've spent about 15 years working in the NHS and more recently in substantive roles as a DNI director in the NHS with several community based organisations. So the hierarchy within the NHS and how that plays out absolutely will have different experiences for different people in those different roles.
Yeah. I use the freedom principles. For those of you who aren't aware, the freedom principles. Freedom stands for fairness, respect, equity or equality, dignity and autonomy. So I'm a great believer that fairness is utmost, because when we're dealing with people, you have to believe in the process, you have to have an element of trust. So I need to know that I can trust you to treat me fairly, because if I haven't got that trust in you, no matter what you say next, I will never believe you or I won't have that psychological safety. I won't feel I can bring my whole self to work, whatever you mean by that. So fairness is very fundamental.
I agree with you. Sometimes we end up battling each other's concept of fairness, don't we?
And I think you touched on trust. That too is so hugely important in relationships and within organisations. Most of you will know around issues around discrimination that organisations affect. And the NHS is no different to other organisations. When we're thinking about actually who does speak up, who is listened to, how are things resolved and managed, having that trust in, whether it's your line manager or whether it's the executive director or your CEO, that's really important to know that you are going to be listened to and you're going to be treated fairly, you're not going to be treated differently, you're not going to be treated differently because of your role or what you're raising or anything to do with a particular characteristic or your experience. So I think it's all hand in hand, isn't it? All of these different. These key values that we.
I mean, working in organisations such as the NHS, they're huge monoliths sometimes and made up of lots of disparate departments and different priorities, different care needs, different overheads. It must be really difficult to try and create change in a way that is meaningful because so many people have so many different views of what inclusion means. I was doing some work with, I think it was Morgan Bay, that area there, and they were doing a huge project on sticky floor where they recognised that a section of the demographic, of their employee base were never promoted, they were never getting past entry level positions, and the sticky floor was holding people back. And you could see quite clearly that people who are white escaped that lower tier, whereas people who are people of colour, low economic, socioeconomic status, even though they're perfectly qualified, able to devolve, for whatever reason, they didn't progress from the organisation in the same way. So it's about how do we create equity in the system to ensure we're amplifying people who are stuck or not seen or not viewed as capable for whatever reason.
Yeah. I've been working in organisations for so long now and I remember when we first started looking at issues like that, your example of sticky floor issues, there was a lot of emphasis on individuals upskilling themselves, improving their cvs, getting better at interviews, et cetera, et cetera. And over time it became more and more clear that it was to do with systemic structures within organisations. And that is still the place where I still sit, sort of professionally, in my views of fairness and where it should sit, absolutely. Individuals play a part, but they are not key in dismantling unfairness within organisations. It has to be an organisational, structural decision to actively do things differently. So the work that I was involved in, in the NHS, when we looked at specific data sets, so, for example, we use a data tool called the Workforce Race Equality standard, and there's another data set called the Workforce Disability standard. And those two standards, historically, with regards to data recruitment and retention and promotion, they have always been the data set across pretty much all NHS organisations where there is huge disproportionality when we're comparing it to white british employees, and even if you break it down to white british male employees or white british female employees, there's a huge disproportionality.
So it's a good piece of data set to really evidence how unfairness plays out in organisations.
Yeah. When I was listening to the stats that I was a party to the presentation, I left the room with more questions and answers. I wanted to speak to people who were in those demographics where they weren't progressing and say, what do you think the problem is? Because I was asking the people who do resident support? I said, well, what are the people who are getting stuck field? Well, we don't know, we just got the data. I said, well, surely we want to get into those examples and say, look, so you're in this role. Is there a reason why you perceive you haven't progressed? Is it a limiting belief impostor syndrome? Is it a lack of drive? Or is it just purely that they come to work, do a job, they're happy with what they've got, they don't have ambition. So we're trying to create systems and fixing systems where we haven't necessarily engaged with the people who are affected to ask them why they haven't progressed. As you said in the past, we were pushing the problem back to them and saying, you need to progress yourself, you need to work harder, you seek qualifications. And they obviously weren't.
So is it a community thing, is it a limiting belief thing? Is it just a societal expectation thing? Or is there other genuine reasons why people are being pushed down and held back?
I think it's a complicated answer and I think there are absolutely key themes that will just think about NHS organisations specifically. There are key themes within NHS organisations as a whole, but then there'll be different reasons and specific cultural differences within different NHS organisations, whether it's to do with geography, the services that they have, the size of organisations. There's a lot of complex structural organisations out there as well. Even people who work in the NHS don't necessarily understand the architecture. But for everyday people, it's not something that we really consider. You just think of the NHS as a place we go to be treated, to be healed, cared for. It's a huge beast and it's incredibly complicated. So I think all of those different aspects of it gives different reasons why unfairness plays out.
And I think you're absolutely right, Jo, that the more you become curious and learn about it, the more you think actually, hold on, I don't get this. This is just so much. There's so much that I want to know here, there's so much to unpick, there's far more questions. And I have spent 15 years asking those questions. And the work that I'm doing now as a consultant, I'm working with NHS organisations, going into very sort of specific pieces of work with them, which is quite different to the type of work I was doing in my substantive role.
People always say that data tells a story, and I think I'm always frustrated, but we never actually hear the story. We hear the headlines, we hear the opening chapter, but we never actually dive down. I think that was the frustration I felt and I think you're echoing the same thing, is that we've got lots of data, we know lots of startings of the story, but we don't actually have the real answers. And that's the challenge, I think, in most EDI work is trying to uncover the story and what are the inequities, what are the challenges? And yes, a lot of it is systemic and based on historical privilege and power structures. But how do we break out that cycle is the challenge we all face in this sort of EDI sector, if you like.
One of the things, and you'll probably be in agreement that the more we look at our society, again, we're looking at talking about UK specific societies, our society, right now, and look at inequity and how that plays out in our society, it absolutely will resemble organisations. So you can't detract from what is happening out there right now. And I think that's hugely important to constantly remember that.
Yeah, we just look at what's going on in the political sphere at the moment where the language being used around refugees entering our shores, fleeing from terror, fleeing for their lives in many cases, how the dehumanising language used to describe them, and then the government is looking to turn the boat around and ship them to Rwanda. And I don't want to be guilty of having a bias against Rwanda. I don't know the country, I don't know the people. I think there's a kind of a political demonization of Rwanda as a country, saying it's third world, it can't be any good, we're dumping our rubbish somewhere. I think that could be disrespectful of a country. So I don't want to get into the debate whether Miranda. It's just the language the government's using to sort of devalue these people and seeing them as not worthy of our support wing mentality, isn't it?
Yeah, no, it absolutely is. And it feels like it's an opportunity to sidetrack the conversation, because when we think about actually how much money has been spent on the Rwanda deal and the cost of that so far and actually how many people have gone to Rwanda, I think the latest figure is there's been more home secretaries that have gone to Miranda than actual refugees. So if society and the people that were interested in the political debate around this were interested in the cost of this particular exercise, and if that money was to go into, I don't know, housing, into services like the NHS, or into know key services policing. Actually, to me, it feels like, firstly, it's a complete waste of money, but it also is sidetracking from all the other underfunded resourcing that's going into the public sector, which is so much needed, really, in particular, some very key areas in our country.
It must have a psychological impact on people where they're hearing you said, quite rightly, what's going on in society is the macro, and that impacts the micro, if you like, of the organisation or what's going on inside organisations and people's psychology and mental health. You're hearing all of this dehumanising language, this demonising language, these stereotypes, these biases, the xenophobic type remarks that stem from Brexit. We've got a population who seem to be leaning, and certainly a mainstream media, who lean towards stealing jobs from the british, whoever they may be, some sort of ethnic sort of superiority around white people being denied opportunity. We talk here, we're talking about fairness and equity. Is the everyday white person feeling marginalised and that's why they're fighting back, is that kind of thing. What's going on?
So, again, there's been a lot of work around white working class boys, specifically in urban areas, and I think that's been going on definitely in all of my time in the NHS. Whether that's really sort of played out in policy change, I'm not sure, because my experience is not in education. So I would like to believe that there is work in identified areas in my sphere of career. So in the NHS, it's definitely been an area, hasn't been a focus, which I think absolutely should. I think when the Equality act came on board, socioeconomic was going to be a protected characteristic, but it got thrown out at the last. I think it was literally a couple of months before the act came into play. And I think if that was part of the work around diversity and inclusion and baked in, into the sort of process, we would have absolutely looked at white working class boys. And I say boys.
It's actually a specific group that's been identified up to 18 and then post 25. So there's quite a lot of research around that and looking at that and how that plays out into organisations, whether it's around people finding it difficult, finding jobs or are in work, and they're having the same issues as you've described in Mez's side around sticky know, we look at ethnicity when we tend to look at ethnicity and disability, when we look at promotions and again, absolutely missed opportunity to not look at white working class groups and their journey around career progressions in organisations. I think it's an area that it feels like it's on the sideline, really. I think people like us in this field of work, we're aware of it, but we don't get necessarily asked to do that work.
Yeah, it's tough sometimes in the EDI space because by amplifying and giving equity to certain demographics, it almost feels like sometimes you're pulling other people back because that's the perception they have, even though equity is all about amplifying and not pulling other people back. So you're trying to bring people up to the same level rather than bring people down to your level. You always feel like you're losing something by somebody else getting more.
And again, organisations will resource different pieces of work or there would be different pieces of work that are perceived as more important at that one time. So the balance has always been when we're looking at DNI is looking at all of the groups. So again, just sort of giving my example of the NHS, one of the things I always looked at when I worked in organisations was the workforce demographics. So looking at workforce demographics, looking at, and then I looked at the census demographics and seeing how that married up. And most good organisations tended to marry up and be similar to their communities because, you know, if it's similar to the community, it will be similar to the patient community. Generally speaking, there's huge disparities in that. Again, it opens that space into understanding where the priorities are for those organisations if their workforce is not reflective of their local community.
Yeah, I was into some housing associations probably last year, the year before, where they were really struggling to find good people in their hourly paid roles of care workers. And the analysis they did identified the fact that most of their care homes and service provision locations tends to be in affluent type neighbourhoods and areas. And most of the people they wanted to attract to work in those places were some many miles away where they lived, and the transport links between where people were living in their target demographic for people to recruit. The transport links were poor or expensive, so people who they wanted to attract couldn't actually afford time and money to come to work at that location when they're being paid minimum wage or living wage. So they identified the fact they needed to put on a kind of a staff bus, collect people in the mornings, bus people in, because that way, that equity, if you like, would relieve it. But as you're saying there, it's important to look at your demographic of your territory, your locale, and then lay on top of that, the demographic of your staff and the people you serve, and make sure there's an alignment there, otherwise you find this disconnect. The people you want to work in your organisation can't afford to work there because there's no way getting to work every day.
Well, I think that example is a great one because public transport is expensive now, so if people are on minimum wage and then they're going to have to fork out for the transport cost to get to and from work, where if they can get a job much closer to where they live. Yeah. These are the sort of things that organisations need to consider when they're thinking about who they want to work in their organisation. There's so many nuances and not really understanding those types of things with regards to the areas that you're serving. I just don't think organisations necessarily have the chance to really think through all of this first. It tends to be something that they'll think about afterwards when they think, oh, well, actually, hold on a minute, we can't get anybody, or in that particular example, it could be only middle class, affluent people are applying for work here, or they're volunteering because they don't money.
The people who you want to apply aren't applying because it's too expensive to work there and the people who would be able to get there easily wouldn't want a job because it's low paid work and they don't see that as something fitful for them. Again, getting the data and asking the questions, why aren't these people applying and what's the barriers? Because we can also look into the nature of people who are in that demographic where they are taking hourly paid, low paid work, unskilled or partially skilled work. They probably have childcare, they have care responsibilities, they have multiple challenges around maybe the single parent, maybe they're in a dysfunctional family. There's a whole load of issues that going on that whilst they'd love a great job, they just physically actually can't engage with it because it doesn't work for them. I think we need to look at those sort of ways of. We talk about equity a lot. How do we bring equity? And not just the recruitment process, but also in the employment process and how do we look at those challenges? I think also, I'm sure the NHS have this view as well, is that we have a social responsibility to get people into work and to get people into good work, reliable work, and to make people, or allow people to be productive in society. So I think all organisations, no matter whether if you're in commercial or public sector, you have a responsibility to make sure you are providing work for the community as well as drive profit for shareholders.
I think we touched on travel in the green room and your train journey and your example of people having to physically get to work is something that I don't think we spend a huge amount of time really considering. And I know in the pandemic when everyone was working at home, there were lots of groups of people that I remember talking to that for some of them it was huge benefit working at home. And again, people who identified with particular characteristics, so women with young children at home, so that flexibility of either looking after children or dropping children off at nursery or school, particularly when the schools were opened. So things like this, where it becomes really important for working women actually commuting and physically getting to work and back, it's an extra layer on someone's day. So if they're able to work from home and they've got that capacity to.
Do.
Know, if they have to commute into London, which is like, I don't know, we're all based in know, it's like an hour and a half, 2 hours. So why would they do that if they could work from home and pretty much do exactly the same as what they're doing if they're in? So I think that whole thing around commuting and what your workforce looks like and how you retain your workforce, it's one step back. How you enable diversity within your workforce, but also how you retain your workforce, I think they're all significant questions to ask around how we work. I know there's a real push for people to get back in the office, which I've written a couple of different LinkedIn posts about that and my view is that absolutely understand why an organisation would say that and depending on what your role is, there will absolutely be reasons. So if you're frontline, clinical facing role, most of those are better placed physically seeing patients as opposed to virtual sessions with patients, although some can be virtual. But the majority of time it's better to see people in person, face to face. But if you're a PA or if you're an administrator or trying to think other roles, computer based jobs, you can do that at home, you don't need to physically be in an office. Bit controversial, I know, but yeah, I think it really impacts certain groups.
Yeah. My theory is that it's largely political. The government or the people in power need to put money back into the system. So if you've got nobody travelling into the office, nobody's commuting, the trains become unviable. London underground becomes. Lacks viability, which is what we're seeing here. The government's having to prop up tfl by billions to keep it afloat because people aren't travelling into London. So there's a huge societal pressure to get people back to what they were doing, because the entire country's infrastructure was based on people travelling around and going to work.
If everyone sits at home every day, all of the infrastructure, all of the cafes, the coffee shops, the little places in the city, they're just not needed anymore. Therefore we have unemployment rising because everyone's working from home. So the society wasn't ready to reengineer its whole viability of economic, sort of cash movement, if you like, as a result of the pandemic. And I think that's why they tried to put this help out, to eat out, whatever the scheme it was, to try and get people eating out again, because people backed off of pubs, they backed off the cafes, they backed off of restaurants and living at home. So I think that's part of it. The government went, oh, we've been too keen to push people away, and now we've got a huge problem. Now we've got economic vacuums in places where people aren't going back. So I think a lot of that drives it.
We've got business owners who have huge great buildings that are empty. If the buildings are empty, you don't need cleaning staff, you don't need door stuff, you don't need security. So again, you got a whole sector of people not being employed. I think that's the driver in some respects.
Yeah, no, I do agree with you, but I do think a lot of these sort of economic arguments are so short sighted. There are so many other ways of creating. We're talking about a capitalist society, and there's so many other ways that we all can contribute into society financially. So it's not just getting on a train. We could go to an independent cafe to where we live, or most people who work at home, they've got into habits to manage their well beings. They are out and about and they are doing different. You know, the argument, if we really looked into it, which I'm sure no one has done, that, I'm sure there are other areas where the economy is thriving and might not be thriving in the small cafe in London, but there might be thriving in a small cafe, independent cafe in. It's I think all of this is, and what we do find with, and we're talking current government, it's very short sighted, it's very immediate.
There's not much consideration into different aspects of decision making and obviously we're seeing some of that in the COVID inquiry. And for those of us who worked in the public sector during COVID and I had the privilege of working in the pandemic, were able to see that firsthand some of those poor decision making processes. So I think this is part of it, really. I think the whole push to get people back into work. Yes, I think you're right, it is driven politically, but I think the economic argument is a poor argument. I think for them it's a very poor. There's a lot of lack of thought in that argument.
I completely agree. And whilst I understand the reasons, or what I perceive are the reasons, one thing I was saying when there was this push back to go to the office and the early arguments were, well, what about the watercolour conversations, the mentoring? If you're in early career, you lack that sort of experience by mixing with people and the osmosis that occurs. I said, I completely get it, but what you can't say is the equation, and the answer to every equation is you must go back to the office. The equation must be what is the most efficient, where's the best way of doing it? Going back to the office is one outcome that can deliver that requirement. If you start with that being the only outcome, that's what you focus on. We step back, we've got the metaverse, we've got AI, we've got Zoom, we've got teams, there are far better way of collaborating. I'm a great believer in that. And the example you had about surgeons, we've got surgeons doing laparoscopic procedures with robots from the other side of the world controlling the operation.
Because when they're actually in the operator's theatre, and this is my lay appreciation of what I see on telly, they are looking at computer screen and they're controlling things with robot arms and doing the work. That way they don't actually need to be in the same room in the same country, in the same time zone.
Yeah.
So if a doctor can do that, dentists can do that, everybody can do that. It's just about evolving our communication skills. And the other thing I used to say is people say, well, it's about our culture. We need our culture, people to come in and feel experiences. And I say, well, actually I want my culture. Like my pension I can take it with me when I go to another organisation. So what I can have is I can build my own home life culture around my family, around my community, around my own gym and my own coffee shop, and I can consume my culture and the way I want it. And I can just pick and choose whichever company I want to work for, wherever they may be, and I don't have to leave my culture behind.
But what you want me to do is rip my life out of my family, travel for two and a half hours each way, 5 hours a day to experience your culture. When I've got a perfectly good one, I could be investing in the home. So that's my argument around this culture thing. Let me have it. Like my pension, I could take it with me.
No, I like that. I like that analogy.
Yeah, but that seems to be the argument. It's like, no, but you're a solopreneur. You work from home largely. I'm a solopreneur. I largely work from home. It's probably 80, 2090. Ten, sometimes 10% in the office, 10% in clients. I know I could work perfect productively.
And I think it's almost insulting to people to say you're not as productive remotely. It's an insult, people.
I find that very insulting. Although I would say for you and I, we're at different stages of our careers. So I think for those at the early stages of their careers, I think it's really a mid career as well. I say early stages of the mid career. I think it's really important to not necessarily be in an office. I think to be engaging on as many different ways as possible to learn from others. Thinking about that whole mentoring experience and how you can see leadership, particularly if you're career driven, I think that's really important to explore as many different ways. So if you're just working at home mainly, I don't think that's good.
I think do a combo of lots of different things, whether it's an in person conference a couple of times a year, going to some workshops or catch ups with coffees, doesn't necessarily mean you have to be in the office every day. But I think having a mixture. But yeah, people like us, Joe, we're sort of well versed at what we should be doing with our work. So all of these tools we've acquired, haven't we? So we know to go and meet somebody in person, or when to attend an event or go to something. So again, acquiring that skill with our experience, I think we're at a different stage and we can make different choices.
I completely agree. And there are times in my career when I needed people around me, I needed to learn, I need to be mentored, I needed to pick up stuff and the osmosis was necessary. You're completely right, and I'm not negating that need. We also have to remember that I think 60% of the workforce, if not more, do roles where you have to physically touch something. So assembly work, manufacturing, hospitality, production lines, all these kind of people, you can't at the moment do those remotely, even with computer. There's no. Largely not computer controlled remotely. So we have to recognise there is an inequity here of the ones who can and the ones who cannot.
So I think there's also the in it together type mentality, whereas if you've got half the office who have to be there for various reasons, then it's only fair that everybody should kind of be there as well. So altogether. So I didn't get the kind of socioeconomic and the need for us as humans to get together and collaborate and be together. So I do get it. I don't know about you, but I hate stereotypes, I hate big blanket assumptions and decisions. They'll all shout because they'll shout sort of thing, without the granularity. And being person centric. And you work at the NHS and being person centric is so important because if you start to generalise, you make poor decisions, because every person is different.
And looking at the needs of individuals should be a corporate responsibility.
Yeah. I think there are so many different sort of work cultures that don't take into account all the nuances of individuals. So as you were talking, I was recalling an example, and it wasn't even that long ago, it was probably, I know, six years ago, seven years ago, I was working for a company in central London, so, commuting in and out of London, and on a Friday night, there was a cocktail bar opposite the offices, and that's what they did Friday night cocktails, and most people stayed until early hours and it was obviously social time and it was a given that you go to these cocktails and if you didn't, it's, oh, you're not going to cocktails. So again, just. That sounds great if you like cocktails, but say you don't drink alcohol, are there mocktails there? What about. You don't want to be in those types of environments, sort of for religious reasons or cultural reasons, nothing there for any difference. What about if you've got a family, you need to get back for them again. Nothing about the family.
What about. I know, disability, the public transport that you need to get on, but at 02:00 in the morning is not running again. Nothing. Cocktails on a Friday sounds lovely, but actually, when you're thinking about, is it right for everybody? Probably not. And there are lots of different reasons why it's not right for everybody.
I gave up drinking, I think, 723 days ago, thereabouts. It was January a couple of years ago, I gave up. And you suddenly realise how much the world is orientated around a social that involves alcohol. And I found it incredible. We talk about privilege, but you don't realise the water you swim in until you're not in that water anymore, then you suddenly step out and go, wow, hang on a minute. I now see this. And as a non drinker, I've now woken up to how much of our society revolves around a drink somewhere, even in cultural conversations. Let's go for a beer one night.
Let's go for a glass of wine. Or I don't drink. And they say, well, we can come along and have a lemonade. Well, why do I want to go to a pub where everyone's drinking and have a lemonade? Why can't we go to Costa or have a nice coffee somewhere? Yeah, but we want to go for a drink. We don't have to. So it's trying to reorientate. And I've walked away from events purely because they have a boozy undercurrent to them. I think, well, do I want to turn up to this evening where after about half an hour, everyone is starting to slur? Everyone started.
It gets kind of icky in that kind of drunken environment. I think, no, you're not funny. It's no fun to be sober. So I walk away from things, and that's for personal reasons, not religious reasons or any other reasonable health reasons, necessarily. So we are excluding people or defining the norm, and that's our cultural fit, isn't it? We keep trying to say, you must fit into this or you're seen as no fun.
Yeah, I remember this. Cocktails evening. So, Friday, cocktail night, gently, very gently, sort of questioning. Is this sort of being inclusive? And are we thinking about everybody here? Oh, yeah, we've got know it's disability access. And so everything I said there was like a so still in a cocktail bar in central London Friday night, and all the things that you said around that sort of cultural experience, people getting drunk, being in that, but there might be some flirtations going on with people, you just think, actually, do people really want to be in those environments? Really? I don't know.
Apparently some extrovert. Yeah, if you're an extrovert, I'm quite happy being an introvert who's happy to go out. But some people do thrive on those environments. They want to bounce off like a pinball in a pinball machine and have all that social interaction because that's where they get their energy. But there's a good 50% of the population don't.
No, that's it. Because I would describe myself as an extrovert, but I thought, like, I just don't want to do that type of stuff anymore. I've got other things that I enjoy doing. So again, it's allowing for all of that, really. But, yeah, I agree, there is still very much, when you consciously think of alcohol, become more aware that we are still very much in an alcohol rich society and a lot of it is based around drinking. So even gifting. So again, one of the things that I gently. I sound like I'm a bit of a misery, really.
But Christmas time, when people give out gifts to their colleagues and they give out bottles of wine or bottles of gin. I said, have you thought about doing non alcoholic or something different? No. It's nice getting a bottle of wine, isn't it? Or a bottle of gin. I said, well, not for everybody, but, yeah, I think they probably thought I was a bit of a misery, really. A party poop.
Yeah. I know you can get alcohol free gin, alcohol free beer, alcohol free wine. And I don't need an alcohol substitute. It's like a mocktail. I wouldn't drink that normally. You're calling it a mocktail to make it sound like it's an alcohol substitute. Why don't you give me a coffee? I've also sort of had the same sort of thought around veganism or vegetarianism and thinking, do I want to consume my plant based food as in the soap of a sausage? Why do I have to have a plant based food in the soap of a sausage? Why can't I have something that's plant based, that's plant based from the ground up? Because you see so many times where you go to these functions where the vegan or vegetarian option is a poor facsimile of everybody else's experience is just mediocre. I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I will often go for the vegan or vegetarian choice because when it's done right, it's far more creative and inspiring than a meat dish sometimes, because people have to.
Have to work harder on it. And I feel so sorry that we're not catering properly for celiacs. Other dietary requirements. It's always a poor relation and it's just so unattractive. I just feel so kind of privileged as an eater, if that's an omnivore who eats most things. And I just feel so disappointed for people who have to have that lib sandwich with a bit of cellophane over. That's their gluten free option.
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think they tend to be sort of like conference function type things, go to a nice restaurant. There are normally good options for non meat eaters. Yeah, options. But there are options. Good options.
I've made a conscious decision to minimise my dairy, like cow dairy intake. So I tend to use plant based oat milk or almond milk or other milk. And you ask sometimes and it's becoming better in coffee shops. It's becoming better than it ever has. They have the options there. You still got to pay extra for it, it's still penalised for it and they assume you've got an allergy. No, it's just a preference. It's okay, it's a preference.
You go to natural trust. They put this little sticker on the cup so it doesn't get contaminated of anything. No, it's just a preference. Some people are gearing themselves up for it. I think it's important that we start to. When we think about EDI, we talk about fairness, respect, we talk about inclusion, all these things. Actually. It's small details that psychological safety, that inclusion.
How do I feel? And the belongingness. I'm a great believer in belongingness. Walking into a place and you feel it's for you. Have they thought about your needs as an individual? Not just a broad brush, you'll be okay sort of thing, or you'll adapt round us. Actually, we're bending for you a little bit here as well. That's what I think a lot of organisations miss that nuance between inclusion and belonging.
I think there's an attempt, isn't there? There's an absolutely attempt to get that. But it's so variable in organisations and I think it's variable on lots of different levels. So there will be organisations in some areas they're excelling and they're doing really well and everyone feels great. There might be other functions or departments or even customer facing services where it isn't. So it's so variable. There still is that lack of consistency. I think that's probably an area where probably needs the most impotence. Impetus is the consistency in how people feel in environments and organisations.
There's a book or there's a well known story based on airlines and it's the coffee stain on the tray table. So if you get onto an aeroplane, you pull the tray table down, there's a coffee stain, a coffee ring on the tray table, what does that say to you? If they can't clean the tray, do they service the engines, do they do the flight cheque, do they do this? So sometimes when you're looking at these small little details think well it's only a coffee stain actually it shows the systemic process and thinking of the organisation, they don't care about the hygiene level right at that beginning. So what does it say about the rest of the process? And I think EDI is like that for me. If you're not showing equity, creating, focusing on belongingness around in a person centric way for everybody, then that shows it's tokenistic or you're not following through to every detail in your systems. So it's that coffee stain on the trade table is the indicator of how much you care about people. I think that's what I want to see in organisations is that deep, really real care about how your experience of working here or being a customer or being a service user or being whatever it may be. And that's the fairness and inclusion and belonging element for me.
Yeah. And I was just thinking about my experience in the NHS and the clients that I work with. I think to have that level of detail and nuance is absolutely aspirational for most organisations because there's so much other work to do. Need to make sure that. Just think about that airline analogy to make sure that the customers, the passengers on the previous flight are off the flight. It's that type of stuff that needs to happen before we get to the cleaning up bit. There's so much other work to do.
Oh yeah, no, completely. It's interesting when you start thinking about that coffee stain and when you look around the world and see it, you walk into a restaurant and every free table has got dirty trays on it, so they're too busy servicing new people and then there's no capacity for them to sit and you've got to try and balance your front, your back, your middle. So just observing how operations work around, trying to create this balance and I think that you get so locked in you become blinkered into your focus. You often don't step back and sort of look at the other systems as well.
That part of it is really hard for people when they're in organisations to take that step back and see what else is going on because you're immersed in what you're doing and by no reason at all regarding yourself. We could use the word unconscious bias or all the other aspects of the EDi language. If you're so immersed in what you're doing and it's impossible to step away, it's very hard for people to really sort of think about where else is going on.
We were chatting just before we went on. I noticed in the show notes that you put in, you're a rucker Bregman fan and you mentioned humankind. And I'm also a fan of his other book, Utopia for realists. There's some really great stuff that comes out that the thing that I would remember from Utopia for realists is thought about universal basic income, Ubi, and how this perception that poor people can't be trusted with money, that's why they're poor. Actually, when you look at people who have less money, they're more diligent and focused on budgeting and careful. A person who's wealthy will squander more money than someone who is not wealthy ever does in their entire life in an hour sort of thing. And it was all about this example where if you gave people an online basic income, they would then allow them to escape the sticky floor which we talked about earlier. And then once you elevate yourself up Maslow's triangle, you stop having to worry about your house and your food and what's happened today.
You can think about next week. When you can think about next week, you start to think about next month. Once you start planning, you then have agency and power over self. Otherwise you're just reactive. The whole concept behind his first book was really inspiring to me.
Yeah. And I think I'd recommend anyone who listens to us on this podcast to read any of his books or even connect to them on LinkedIn, because he writes some really interesting posts and links history to current perspectives of societies. And he looks at different types of societies across the world, which I think is hugely fascinating. But yeah, I think that your example about that, the sharing of wealth and one of the things he does is I can't remember what the charity is called, but it's called like poverty, global poverty, something rather I have to find the name of the charity, but the expectation is that regardless of what you earn, you give x amount of money. And I know there are religions, different religions that operate like that as well. So there is something about being altruistic, being considerate, and actually just giving what you can. And so he's 10% or 20% of his income is given away and that's it. And he'll just live off whatever he has.
I think ultimately, one of the things that resonated with his writing and my interests was around striving for a fair, equal society where hierarchy, I think the other. But he talks about utopia, so it absolutely is a utopic you where there is no hierarchy, there is no socioeconomic groups, there is no class, we all have the same, we all have the same money, we all live in similar types of accommodation, we're all paying similar utility charges. Ultimately, his quest for the future is that's their society.
But even if we look at utopian Star Trek, there's still hierarchy in Star Trek, even though the concept of money and poverty has been eradicated, if you like, in their utopian 25th century, whatever it may be, it's hard to escape hierarchy, but creating a common base, and it's not the communism view of the world, it's kind of a more utopian, statusless view of the world. That's true. Rather than we all see the failures of communism still being a two tier system or multi tier system.
I think with regards to his book and his perception, I think when we look at poverty and how we can share out resources, I think that's probably a better way of describing it as opposed to eradicating hierarchy, because we're not going to eradicate that. This is what we're in, and it's absolutely not going to change, but that is that distribution of wealth. So I can't remember what the number is, but I forgot what the number is. But it's something ridiculous, like, I don't know, 50 people own the amount of wealth in the whole world. I can't remember. It's probably not 50, but it's something.
Very minutial, small number. Yeah.
And so when we think about actually the billionaires and where the wealth is distributed, it's that distribution of wealth and how that impacts people who are on the breadline who are struggling. And there are far more people like that than the people who are the billionaires and the highly wealthy. So it's something around distributing wealth, not completely so that everyone has exactly the same, because like I said, that's not going to happen. We know that. But right now we can absolutely give as much as we can, really, for those who have got some level of.
Additional income and that heads back to the opening which was striving for fairness. And that's really the crux of what you're saying there is trying to create a fair and equitable society, and that's something we should all be mindful and strifeful.
I believe so. And I have been living like this for a long time and I'll still continue to be like this.
Fabulous. Thanks, Pamela. It's been amazing catching up with you again. We've had a great chat now and I hope you, the listener that got to the end with us and have enjoyed this, have got some inspiration. Take something away from this. So how can people get in touch.
With so yes, I'm on LinkedIn and there is only one of me, so I'm quite easy to find. So Pamela Permalyrath. So just find me and you can connect with me. I do like using LinkedIn. I'm no good at other social media, I must admit, so you won't find me anywhere else. So, LinkedIn. I've also got a website, and again, I've kept it straightforward. It's my name, so Google that you find me straight away.
And there is also a section on the website where you can email me direct. So they're the sort of two routes to get in touch with me.
Fabulous. And your name will be in the show notes. So if you could look it up and spell it. But your surname is P-E-R-M-A-L-L-O-O space B-A-S-S. Permalloo Bass. You say there could be only one bit like the Highlander in the old days, isn't it?
Always? Really love meeting you people. So if you connect with me, very happy to have a conversation.
Thank you. For those of you listening, please do subscribe to future episodes of the Inclusion Bites Podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Please share the love, tell your friends, tell your family, tell your colleagues. If you're not subscribed, then do click that button now and follow us for more updates. Of course, I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up and we'll be hitting episode number 100 in a couple of weeks time, so I'm sure you'd be equally inspired by those people as well. And if you'd like to be a guest yourself, I'd love to hear from you, so drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.
Also generated
More from this recording
🔖 Titles
Striving for Fairness: Navigating Inequities in Business and the NHS
Cultivating Equity: The Unspoken Realities of Work Culture and Social Inclusion
Fairness and Equality: Insights into Business, NHS, and Societal Dynamics
Unveiling Inequities: Perspectives on Fairness and Meritocracy in Organisations
Equity Agenda: Challenges and Opportunities in Workplace and Social Environments
The Equality Quest: Diverse Perspectives on Fairness and Inclusion
Tackling Unfairness: A Deeper Dive into Business, NHS, and Societal Dynamics
Striving for Equity: Bridging Gaps in Work Culture and Social Acceptance
Uncovering Inequities: The Intersection of Fairness and Meritocracy in Organisations
Shifting Dynamics: Navigating Fairness and Inclusion in Business and the NHS
ℹ️ Introduction
Welcome to The Inclusion Bites Podcast, where we sink our teeth into topics of diversity, belonging, and making the world a fairer place. In this episode, our host Joanne Lockwood, also known as Jo, engages in a thought-provoking conversation with special guest Pamela Permalloo Bass. Together, they discuss the complexities of striving for fairness and equality in organizations, particularly focusing on the NHS and the broader societal landscape. Tune in as they explore the impact of systemic inequities, challenges of diversity and inclusion efforts, and the importance of understanding individual perspectives. Join Jo and Pamela as they delve into Rutger Bregman's books and their insights on creating a more equitable society. This compelling discussion will leave you with a deeper understanding of the nuances of fairness and inclusion. So, grab your earphones and get ready to bite into this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Fairness is subjective, linked to socioeconomic status, and experienced differently in hierarchical organisations, such as the NHS.
06:24 Challenges in creating meaningful change in large organisations like the NHS, particularly in promoting equity and inclusion. Addressed sticky floor issue affecting certain demographics.
07:47 Initially focused on individual upskilling, but shifted to systemic structures within organisations for fairness. Emphasises need for organisational change to address unfairness. Identified disproportionality in NHS data sets related to workforce diversity.
12:56 Frustration with data storytelling in EDI work. Difficulty uncovering inequities and breaking systemic cycles.
15:25 The speaker argues the Rwanda deal is a costly diversion from addressing underfunded public services in the UK.
17:47 Efforts for white working class boys needed in NHS. Socioeconomic status should be a focus in diversity and inclusion.
24:17 Employment barriers: cost, low pay, childcare, care responsibilities, social challenges. Need equity in recruitment and employment. All organisations have responsibility to provide work for community.
27:00 Questioning commuting and workforce retention for remote work.
30:30 Economic arguments short-sighted, other ways to contribute financially, current government shortsighted.
32:31 Agreed. Office not always best, other tech can be more effective.
38:30 Work cultures don't consider individual nuances, such as alcohol preferences or family responsibilities.
40:41 Preference for non-alcoholic socialising, avoiding boozy events.
44:00 Questioning alcohol-free alternatives and plant-based food presentation.
48:11 Airlines' coffee stain implies systemic care about people in organisations.
51:35 Discussion about being a fan of Rutger Bregman's books and his ideas, particularly on universal basic income and escaping poverty.
52:57 Recommend reading author's books, connect on LinkedIn, discusses societies, charity for global poverty.
58:48 Please subscribe to Inclusion Bites Podcast. Share, follow, and future guests. Contact for guest opportunities.
📚 Timestamped overview
00:00 Fairness is subjective, linked to privilege, hierarchy.
06:24 Challenges of promoting diversity and inclusion.
07:47 Organizational focus to address systemic unfairness in workplaces.
12:56 Data tells incomplete story; frustration in uncovering.
15:25 Rwanda deal sidetracks from underfunded public sector.
17:47 Work on white working class boys needed.
24:17 Few applying due to expense, low pay. Issues: childcare, care responsibilities, challenges, equity. Social responsibility for reliable, productive work.
27:00 Questioning need for commuting vs remote work.
30:30 Diverse ways to contribute in capitalist society.
32:31 Office not only solution, consider better methods.
38:30 Work culture excludes individual nuances and needs.
40:41 Preference for non-alcoholic socialising to avoid pressure.
44:00 Alcohol-free options, plant-based food considerations.
48:11 Attention to detail reflects organisational care standards.
51:35 Discussion about universal basic income and poverty.
52:57 Recommend reading author's books, connecting on LinkedIn.
58:48 Please subscribe to Inclusion Bites Podcast.
{Episode Tags}
fairness, equity, diversity and inclusion, workplace culture, NHS challenges, systemic inequity, Rutger Bregman, Utopia for Realists, Human Kind, business and organization fairness
{Subtitle} - A Single Sentence describing this episode
Join Joanne Lockwood and guest Pamela Permalloo Bass in a thought-provoking conversation about fairness, equity, and the challenges of striving for inclusivity in businesses and organisations, with references to Rutger Bregman's influential works.
{Episode Summary} with Intro, Key Points and a Takeaway
Welcome to another thought-provoking episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast with your host, Joanne Lockwood, where we delve into the issues of fairness, equity, and inclusion with the insightful Pamela Permalloo Bass.
In this episode, Jo and Pamela explore various dimensions of fairness in the workplace, from challenges faced by business owners and employees to the intricate layers of systemic inequity within the NHS. They touch upon the impact of remote work, the evolving landscape of job roles, and the importance of recognising and addressing the disparities faced by different demographics. With candid discussions about the societal and cultural implications of language and biases, they provide a unique lens on the complexities of striving for fairness in today's world.
Key points include the significance of trust in organisations to address issues of discrimination and ensure fair treatment for all employees, the need for societal inclusivity in work cultures, and the impact of wealth distribution on creating a fair and equitable society. The conversation also touches upon Rutger Bregman's influential work on universal basic income and the concept of striving for fairness and equality in society.
The episode concludes with an exploration of the importance of inclusivity in social events, ranging from considerations around alcohol consumption to catering to diverse dietary preferences and needs. The discussion provides valuable insights and reflections on creating environments that truly embrace diversity and inclusion.
The key takeaway from this compelling conversation is the importance of understanding and respecting individual needs, perspectives, and experiences in the pursuit of fairness and equity in workplaces and society as a whole. Join Jo and Pamela on this thought-provoking journey to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges and opportunities in striving for fairness.
Make sure to tune in to this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast and be part of the conversation around building a more inclusive and equitable world.
💬 Keywords
fairness, equity, businesses, organisations, NHS, Rutger Bregman, Utopia for Realists, Human Kind, diversity, inclusion, workplace, culture, remote work, inequality, societal impact, discrimination, bias, EDI, systemic issues, wealth distribution, workforce demographics, transportation barriers, economic viability, remote work impact, contact information, social events, alcohol inclusivity, dietary preferences, inclusivity
💡 Speaker bios
Pamela Permalloo Bass has spent the majority of her working career in the field of diversity and inclusion. For over 20 years, she has been dedicated to promoting fairness and equality in both her professional and personal life. In a time when the language of diversity, equity, and inclusion was not commonly used, Pamela has been a pioneer in the DNI space. She is passionate about creating a more inclusive and diverse world and is delighted to see more people and professionals joining her in this important work.
❇️ Key topics and bullets
Primary Topic: Fairness and Equity in Business and Organizations
Challenges of balancing fairness and meritocracy
Perspectives on fairness influenced by cultural, societal, and social experiences
Importance of trust in addressing discrimination and ensuring fair treatment for all employees
Primary Topic: Systemic Inequities in NHS and Organizational Commitment to Equity and Inclusion
Systemic issues of unfairness and inequity in recruitment, retention, and promotion
Inconsistency in organisations' commitment to equity and inclusion
Consideration of workforce demographics and their alignment with local communities
Transport barriers and public transport costs affecting workforce diversity and retention
Primary Topic: Impact of Remote Work and Return to Offices on Economic Viability and Unemployment
Government encouragement for people to return to offices to support economic viability
Societal impact of remote work on infrastructure and unemployment
Primary Topic: Inclusive Work Cultures and Social Events
Lack of consideration for diversity and inclusion in work cultures and events
Alternative options to cater to different dietary preferences and needs
Importance of inclusive social events and cultural conversations
Primary Topic: Rutger Bregman's Books and Striving for Fairness and Equality in Society
Reference to Rutger Bregman and his books on universal basic income
Concept of striving for fairness and equality in society
Equity in the EDI space as amplifying certain demographics without pulling others back
Primary Topic: Personal Contact Information and Invitations
Contact information for Pamela Permalloo Bass and Joanne Lockwood
Invitation for listeners to subscribe to the Inclusion Bites Podcast and share with others
Opportunities for future guests to contact Joanne
This comprehensive sequence summarizes key topics and sub-topics covered in the text, providing a clear overview of the podcast episode "Striving for Fairness".
{Questions this episode helps answer}
"Struggling to navigate the ideal workplace culture? Our latest episode uncovers the secrets to fostering fairness and inclusivity, potentially transforming your professional environment for the better. Stay tuned for insights that might just change your game!"
"Feeling the pull between work culture and individual needs? In our upcoming episode, we delve into the realm of creating equitable workplaces, offering fresh perspectives and game-changing strategies. Don't miss out on this transformative conversation!"
"Curious about fostering a sense of fairness and inclusion in your workplace? Our latest episode unveils the crucial elements for nurturing an environment where everyone thrives. Get ready to unlock new approaches that could shape your organisational landscape!"
"Yearning for a more equitable and supportive work environment? Stay tuned for our upcoming episode, where we unpack the core principles of creating a fair and inclusive workplace, potentially revolutionising your professional journey. Dive into this game-changing discussion!"
"Striving for a workplace that embraces fairness and inclusivity? Our new episode offers a deep dive into the strategies and insights you need to enhance your organisational culture. Don't miss out on this opportunity to shape a more equitable professional landscape!"
Questions Asked that were insightful
During the interview, Joanne and Pamela delved into various thought-provoking topics that could be transformed into a series of FAQs for the podcast audience. Here are some potential questions and responses:
Q: How can businesses contribute to society financially in ways other than traditional office setups?
A: Pamela suggests that businesses can support independent cafes, and employees can work from home, reducing the need for commuting and associated costs.
Q: What technology can be utilised for efficient and collaborative remote work?
A: Joanne advocates for using technology like the metaverse, AI, Zoom, and teams to facilitate efficient remote collaboration.
Q: What are the challenges around creating a fair and equitable society and the impact of wealth distribution?
A: The speakers discuss the challenges of fairness, Rutger Bregman's books on universal basic income, and the concept of striving for fairness and equality in society.
Q: How does the lack of consideration for diversity and inclusion in work cultures and social events impact individuals?
A: Joanne and Pamela share experiences of feeling excluded due to events centered around alcohol and highlight the importance of inclusive social events, including catering to diverse dietary preferences and needs.
These FAQs aim to provide valuable insights and address relevant topics discussed in the podcast episode, catering to the audience's interest in fairness, equity, and inclusive work cultures.
The standout line from this episode
The standout line from this episode is:
"We need to uncover the true story of inequities and address systemic challenges in the EDI sector."
❓ Questions
In what ways can businesses and organizations contribute to fairness and equity, especially in the context of workforce diversity and societal impact?
How can the concept of striving for fairness and equality in society, as discussed through Rutger Bregman's books, be translated into practical actions within organizations and communities?
What strategies can help address the systemic inequities and challenges faced by individuals in the healthcare sector, as highlighted by Pamela Permalloo Bass's experience in the NHS?
How can organizations balance the promotion of certain demographics for equity and inclusion without disadvantaging others, as discussed in the context of EDI efforts?
What measures can businesses take to accommodate and support individuals with diverse needs and preferences in work cultures and social events, as exemplified by the discussion on alcohol-free and inclusive gatherings?
How does the impact of remote work and commuting challenges align with the societal and economic considerations raised in the episode, especially regarding workforce diversity and retention?
What actions can organizations take to build trust and address issues of discrimination and unfair treatment, as emphasized in the conversation on fairness and meritocracy?
How can individuals and organizations better understand and accommodate the various dietary preferences and needs of their employees and communities, as discussed in relation to inclusivity and diversity?
What role does government policy and societal infrastructure play in supporting fairness and equity in the context of remote work, transport barriers, and economic viability, as outlined in the episode?
Can you provide examples of practical steps individuals and organizations can take to uncover and address systemic challenges related to fairness, equality, and inclusion, as highlighted in the discussions on EDI and societal impact?
These questions cover the key themes and insights from the episode, providing a basis for deeper exploration and reflection on the topics of fairness, equality, EDI, societal impact, and organizational actions.
{FAQs from the episode}
FAQ Title: Striving for Fairness in Business and Society
What are the main challenges faced by businesses in achieving fairness and equity?
Businesses are challenged with balancing remote and on-site work, addressing systemic biases, and ensuring inclusive work cultures that consider diverse individual needs.
How do systemic biases impact fairness in the workplace?
Systemic biases can lead to inequity in recruitment, retention, promotion, and workforce diversity, which can perpetuate unfair treatment and limit opportunities for certain demographics.
What are some practical solutions for promoting fairness and inclusivity in work environments?
Practical solutions include addressing transport barriers, promoting diverse work cultures, accommodating dietary needs, and providing flexibility in work arrangements.
How can businesses support fairness and equality in society at large?
Businesses can contribute to equality by considering societal impact, aligning workforce demographics with local communities, and creating inclusive social events that consider diverse needs and preferences.
What are some key considerations for promoting fairness and inclusivity in social events and work cultures?
Key considerations include accommodating non-drinkers, individuals with family commitments, and those with disabilities. Additionally, providing diverse dietary options can enhance inclusivity in social and work environments.
How can individuals support fairness and inclusivity in their communities?
Individuals can support inclusivity by advocating for diverse needs, embracing cultural conversations not centred around alcohol, and promoting creativity in addressing various dietary requirements.
What resources are available for those interested in contributing to fairness and equity in business and society?
Resources include books by Rutger Bregman, such as "Utopia for Realists" and "Humankind," along with networking with EDI consultants and engaging with inclusive workplace initiatives.
What steps can organisations and individuals take to address the impact of remote work on infrastructure and unemployment?
Steps include understanding transport barriers, considering societal impact, and promoting diversity and inclusivity in both virtual and physical work environments.
Remember to check out the "Striving for Fairness" episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast for more insights and discussions on these topics!
Tell me more about the guest and their views
Pamela Permalloo Bass is a highly experienced EDI (Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion) coach and consultant. In the podcast episode, she shared valuable insights into the systemic issues of unfairness and inequity, particularly within the NHS. Her perspective is rooted in addressing the complexities of equity and inclusion within organisations, highlighting the need for consistency in commitment to fairness. Pamela's emphasis on uncovering the true story of inequities and addressing systemic challenges reflects her dedication to promoting a fair and equitable society.
Additionally, Pamela discussed the impact of work cultures and social events on inclusion, emphasising the need for consideration of diverse preferences and needs, such as those related to alcohol, dietary choices, and inclusivity. Her views and experiences contribute to a broader conversation around striving for fairness and equality in both professional and social environments.
The discussion of Rutger Bregman's books also provides an insight into Pamela's alignment with concepts of universal basic income and the broader goal of striving for fairness and equality in society.
Ideas for Future Training and Workshops based on this Episode
Certainly, based on the episode's themes of fairness, equity, and inclusion, here are some ideas for future training and workshops:
"Fairness in Business: Balancing Equity and Meritocracy"
This workshop can explore the challenges of achieving fairness while maintaining a merit-based system in business and organizational environments. This could involve case studies, interactive discussions, and practical strategies for fostering fairness and equity.
"Systemic Inequity: Uncovering the True Story"
This training could delve into the systemic challenges and discrimination faced by different demographic groups in the workplace and society. It could involve deep-dive discussions, guest speakers, and activities to uncover and address systemic challenges in equitable diversity and inclusion efforts.
"Understanding Cultural Perspectives on Fairness"
This workshop could explore how individuals' cultural, societal, and social experiences shape their perspectives on fairness. It could involve cross-cultural dialogues, group activities, and learning from the experiences and perspectives of diverse participants.
"Building Trust for Fair Treatment"
This training could focus on the significance of trust within organizations when addressing issues of discrimination and fair treatment. It could include exercises, role-playing scenarios, and discussions on building trust to create fair and inclusive work environments.
"Creating Inclusive Work Cultures: Beyond the Norm"
This workshop could center on creating inclusive work cultures that go beyond traditional norms, including considerations for diverse dietary preferences, alternative social activities, and inclusion of those with varying needs such as non-alcoholic or family-friendly events.
Each training and workshop should provide practical takeaways and actionable steps for creating fair and inclusive environments within businesses and organizations, aligning with the themes discussed in the episode.
SEO Optimised Titles
Fairness in the NHS: Uncovering Systemic Inequities & Striving for Change | Pamela @EDIConsultancy
The Business Impact of Remote Work: Wealth Distribution & Recruitment Challenges Explored | Pamela @EDIConsultancy
Unseen Inequities: Tackling Bias and Exclusion in Work Cultures | Pamela @EDIConsultancy
Listicle with Image Recommendations
Title: 10 Eye-Opening Insights on Fairness and Equity in Business and Society
Uncovering the True Story: Discover the behind-the-scenes realities of systemic challenges in EDI
Image recommendations:
a. A magnifying glass uncovering hidden truths
b. A puzzle being solved to reveal the bigger picture
c. An iceberg with visible and hidden parts, representing hidden issues
The Complex NHS: Exploring systemic issues of unfairness and inequity within the healthcare system
Image recommendations:
a. Hospital staff in deep conversation, representing complex issues within healthcare
b. An NHS logo combined with a challenge or obstacle symbol
c. A diverse group of healthcare professionals working collaboratively
Striving for Equality: Understanding Rutger Bregman's vision of Utopia for Realists and Human Kind
Image recommendations:
a. Rutger Bregman's book cover with a compelling quote
b. A visual representation of equality and fairness, such as a scale balancing different elements
c. Imagery of a diverse society living in harmony and equality
Psychological Impact: Exploring dehumanizing language and biases in societal contexts
Image recommendations:
a. Illustration of people with speech bubbles containing dehumanizing words
b. A visual representation of biases and stereotypes affecting individuals
c. Emotive facial expressions reflecting the impact of dehumanizing language
Societal Inequity: Understanding the impact of wealth distribution in creating a fair and equitable society
Image recommendations:
a. A visual comparison of different income levels in society
b. An illustration of the impact of wealth on opportunity and access
c. A diverse group of individuals to represent societal equity
Fair Work Culture: Discussing the importance of inclusive events and social gatherings
Image recommendations:
a. A diverse group of professionals at a welcoming and inclusive social event
b. Vibrant visuals of non-alcoholic beverages and inclusive food choices at a social gathering
c. An inclusive workplace culture where everyone feels welcomed and valued
Transportation Barriers: Identifying how transport costs and commuting affect workforce diversity
Image recommendations:
a. Visual representation of commuting challenges and barriers
b. A map showing the impact of transportation on workforce demographics
c. Illustrations of accessible and inclusive transportation options
Remote Work Impact: Evaluating the societal implications of the shift towards remote work
Image recommendations:
a. Contrast between bustling urban spaces and quiet remote work settings
b. Imagery showcasing the impact of remote work on infrastructure and unemployment
c. A visual representation of the societal impact of remote work on different communities
Inclusive Dietary Options: Highlighting the need for diverse food choices in work and social environments
Image recommendations:
a. A diverse array of inclusive food options representing different dietary preferences
b. Illustrations of vegan, vegetarian, and gluten-free food choices in a social setting
c. A visually appealing spread of inclusive and diverse food options
Amplifying Voices: Understanding the significance of aligning workforce demographics with local communities
Image recommendations:
a. Imagery representing diverse and inclusive communities
b. A visual comparison of workforce demographics and local population diversity
c. Photos depicting community engagement and alignment with workforce demographics.
Highlight the Importance of this topic on LinkedIn
🌟 Striving for Fairness in the Workplace 🌟
Just tuned in to an enlightening discussion on The Inclusion Bites Podcast with Joanne Lockwood and Pamela Permalloo Bass.
This episode delves into the vital importance of fairness and equity in businesses and organisations, addressing systemic challenges in the EDI sector.
As a Senior Leader or HR/EDI professional, it's crucial to amplify these conversations within our industry to drive positive change and create inclusive environments for all. Let's continue striving for fairness and equality together! 🌍💼
#DiversityandInclusion #FairnessAtWork #InclusionMatters
L&D Insights
Insights for Senior Leaders, HR, and EDI professionals:
Fairness and equity are vital in organisations, balancing the needs of remote and in-person workers 🌐.
Various individuals have different perspectives on fairness due to cultural and social experiences, challenging traditional notions 🌍.
Address systemic inequities and barriers faced by diverse demographics in our society and workforce 💼.
Emphasise trust, addressing discrimination, and ensuring fair treatment in the organisation 🌈.
Expand EDI efforts to include overlooked groups, such as white working-class boys, in career progression 📈.
"Aha moments" uncovered:
The need for organisations to rethink societal impact, wealth distribution, and workforce demographics 💭.
The impact of dehumanising language, biases, and societal issues on individuals' well-being and career progression 🗣️.
Recognition of transport barriers affecting workforce diversity, retention, and commute costs 🚆.
Actionable changes:
Re-evaluate work cultures to be more inclusive of diverse needs and preferences, such as events not centred around alcohol 🍷.
Consider societal impact of remote work on infrastructure and local unemployment 🚧.
Broaden EDI efforts to amplify overlooked demographics and align workforce with local community demographics 🤝.
#InclusionMatters #FairnessAtWork #EDIInsights #DiversePerspectives #InclusiveWorkCulture
Big Ideas from the Episode
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood and guest Pamela Permalloo Bass dive into the pressing issue of fairness and equity in the business world and the NHS. They explore the complexities of striving for fairness, including the impact of societal inequities, systemic challenges, and the importance of understanding individual needs in decision-making. The conversation also delves into the significance of trust in organisations, the impact of language and biases, and the need to consider diverse workforce demographics. Throughout the episode, they emphasise the need to challenge stereotypes and blanket assumptions, and to address systemic challenges in the EDI sector. Overall, the episode provides valuable insights and discussions on creating fair and inclusive environments within organisations and society at large.
Glossary of Terms and Phrases
Equity: In the context of the episode, equity refers to the fair treatment, access, and opportunity for all individuals, regardless of their backgrounds or circumstances. It emphasises the need to address systemic inequalities and barriers that prevent certain groups from achieving the same opportunities as others.
Metaverse: This term refers to a collective virtual shared space, created by the convergence of virtually enhanced physical reality and physically persistent virtual space, including the sum of all virtual worlds, augmented reality, and the internet. The conversation touches on the potential for using the metaverse as a tool for collaboration and efficiency in the workplace.
Universal Basic Income: This concept involves providing all citizens with a regular, unconditional sum of money, regardless of their income, resources or employment status. Rutger Bregman's book "Utopia for Realists" discusses the idea of universal basic income and its potential to address societal inequities and support individuals financially.
These terms, while not commonly used in everyday language, are crucial in understanding the discussions around fairness, systemic challenges, and diversity and inclusion efforts within organisations and society as a whole.
SEO Optimised YouTube Content
Focus Keyword: Positive People Experiences
Title: Striving for Fairness, Positive People Experiences, and Culture Change | #InclusionBitesPodcast
Tags: Positive People Experiences, Fairness, Equity, Inclusion, Diversity, Workplace Culture, Human Kind, Utopia for Realists, Gender Equality, EDI, Leadership, Business, Society, Community, Collaboration, Remote Work, Employee Engagement, Belonging, Organisational Trust, Meritocracy, Mental Health, Systemic Challenges, Social Impact, Workplace Diversity,
Killer Quote: "Culture change is about creating positive people experiences for employees and embracing diversity and inclusion." - Pamela Permalloo Bass
Hashtags: #PositivePeopleExperiences #CultureChange #DiversityandInclusion #StrivingforFairness #EDI #InclusiveLeadership #WorkplaceCulture #Equality #InclusionBitesPodcast #HumanKind #UtopiaforRealists #BusinessEthics #SocialImpact #OrganisationalTrust #EmployeeEngagement #Fairness #EqualityandDiversity #MentalHealthMatters
Why Listen:
In this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, join me, Jo Lockwood, as I sit down with Pamela Permalloo Bass to explore the essential topic of fairness and equity in businesses and organisations. We delve into the significance of positive people experiences and culture change within the workplace, highlighting key insights from Pamela's expertise in EDI coaching and consultancy and how they can lead to positive, meaningful transformation within organisations. As we discuss insights from Rutger Bregman's books and the challenges of balancing fairness and meritocracy, we also shed light on the societal and economic impact of striving for fairness. This thought-provoking conversation offers actionable insights and practical strategies for creating a more inclusive and equitable workplace culture.
Closing Summary and Call to Action:
Embracing Diversity: Understand the importance of embracing diversity and creating positive people experiences to foster a more inclusive workplace culture.
Systemic Challenges: Acknowledge the systemic challenges and inequalities within organisations and take a proactive approach to address them.
Organisational Trust: Build trust within your organisation by prioritising fairness and equity, and fostering an environment where every individual feels valued and respected.
Remote Work and Collaboration: Explore the possibilities of remote work and collaboration while ensuring fair treatment and support for all employees, regardless of their work location.
Striving for Fairness: Recognise the impact of striving for fairness in creating a more equitable society and advocating for positive change within your community.
Join the Conversation: Share your thoughts and experiences on creating positive people experiences in the workplace and championing culture change to drive inclusion and belonging.
Outro:
Thank you, the listener, for tuning in to this enlightening episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast. If you enjoyed this discussion and want to explore more insightful content, don't forget to like and subscribe to our channel. For more information and to access additional episodes, visit the SEE Change Happen website and listen to The Inclusion Bites Podcast. Stay curious, stay kind, and stay inclusive - Joanne Lockwood
Root Cause Analyst - Why!
The key problems related to this episode include:
Unemployment for cleaning staff, door staff, and security due to empty buildings.
Inequities and systemic issues in the recruitment, retention, and promotion processes within organisations, particularly in the NHS.
Lack of consideration for diverse needs and preferences in work cultures and social environments, including those related to alcohol, dietary choices, and inclusivity.
Why is there unemployment for cleaning staff, door staff, and security due to empty buildings?
There is unemployment for these roles due to a decrease in building occupancy resulting from the shift to remote work and the impact of the pandemic.
Why? Some businesses and organisations have transitioned to remote work as a response to public health concerns and to adapt to changing work preferences and environmental factors.
Why? The shift to remote work has been facilitated by advancements in technology, such as virtual meeting platforms like Zoom and Teams, making it feasible for many employees to work remotely.
Why? Companies and employees have embraced remote work for its flexibility and associated work-life balance benefits, which reduce the need for physical presence in office spaces.
Why? The benefits of remote work have led to a reduction in office spaces and therefore a decrease in demand for certain roles, resulting in unemployment for cleaning staff, door staff, and security.
Summarised Findings:
The shift to remote work and advancements in technology have led to a reduced demand for physical office spaces and, consequently, unemployment for certain roles like cleaning staff, door staff, and security.
Potential Solutions:
Explore alternative employment opportunities, such as retraining programmes or support for positions within sectors experiencing growth.
Encourage businesses to consider flexible staffing arrangements that accommodate changing work environments and focus on retraining and upskilling affected individuals for roles in demand.
Why are there inequities and systemic issues in the recruitment, retention, and promotion processes within organisations, especially in the NHS?
There are inequities and systemic issues due to factors such as inconsistent commitment to equity and inclusion, organisational barriers, and workforce demographics not aligning with the local community.
Why? Some organisations lack consistency in their commitment to equity and inclusion, leading to disparities in recruitment, retention, and promotion processes.
Why? Organisational barriers, such as lack of diversity in leadership and decision-making positions, contribute to inequities in processes related to recruitment, retention, and promotion.
Why? The workforce demographics in certain organisations may not align with the local community, leading to representation and access issues for diverse groups in recruitment and promotion.
Why? The lack of alignment between workforce demographics and the local community may result from ineffective diversity and inclusion strategies or a disconnect between organisational values and community needs.
Summarised Findings:
Inequities and systemic issues in recruitment, retention, and promotion processes stem from inconsistent commitment to equity and inclusion, organisational barriers, and a lack of alignment between workforce demographics and the local community.
Potential Solutions:
Implement comprehensive diversity and inclusion strategies that address barriers to recruitment, retention, and promotion for underrepresented groups.
Foster greater alignment between organisational values and the needs of the local community to promote representation and access for diverse groups.
Why are there lack of consideration for diverse needs and preferences in work cultures and social environments?
The lack of consideration for diverse needs and preferences can result from a lack of awareness, understanding, and inclusivity in planning and organising work-related and social events.
Why? Individuals responsible for planning and organising events may not fully understand or consider the diverse needs and preferences of their colleagues or participants.
Why? There may be limited awareness and training on the importance of inclusivity in event planning and consideration for diverse needs and preferences.
Why? Organisational cultures and social norms may not fully embrace the value of inclusivity, leading to oversight of diverse needs and preferences when planning events.
Why? Lack of structured processes and feedback mechanisms for collecting and addressing diverse needs and preferences when planning events can result in oversight and exclusion.
Summarised Findings:
The lack of consideration for diverse needs and preferences in work cultures and social environments arises from a lack of awareness, understanding, and inclusivity in event planning, as well as limited organisational emphasis on the value of inclusivity.
Potential Solutions:
Provide training and resources to individuals responsible for planning and organising events to raise awareness and consideration of diverse needs and preferences.
Establish structured processes and feedback mechanisms for collecting and addressing diverse needs and preferences when planning events to ensure inclusivity.
In conclusion, the deep-rooted issues identified in this episode highlight the need for comprehensive and proactive measures to address the impact of remote work on employment, promote equity and inclusion within organisations, and foster greater consideration for diverse needs and preferences in work cultures and social environments. Implementing solutions that focus on retraining and flexible staffing arrangements, comprehensive diversity and inclusion strategies, and awareness and resources for inclusivity can help mitigate these challenges.
{Major topics}
Title: Striving for Fairness: A Conversation with Pamela Permalloo Bass
Introduction:
In today's enlightening discussion with Pamela Permalloo Bass, we delved into a myriad of thought-provoking topics related to fairness and equity in the workplace. From the impact of remote work on society to the complexities of systemic discrimination, our conversation touched on several crucial areas that shape our understanding of inclusivity and belonging.
The Impact of Remote Work
We explored the repercussions of empty buildings and unemployment for workers in sectors such as cleaning, door staff, and security, stemming from the shift towards remote work. Pamela raised an interesting perspective, suggesting alternative ways for businesses to contribute to society financially, such as supporting independent cafes or enabling employees to work from home. On the other hand, I advocated for the efficiencies and collaborative potential offered by technology like the metaverse, AI, Zoom, and teams, challenging the notion that physical presence in an office is essential for a sense of culture.
Challenging Traditional Work Patterns
Our discussion also touched on the need for a balance between in-person and remote engagement, particularly for early and mid-career individuals seeking mentorship and learning opportunities. Pamela emphasized the value of diverse engagement methods, while I acknowledged the necessity of physical presence in certain roles, such as assembly work and hospitality. It's essential to recognize the disparities between roles that can be fulfilled remotely and those that cannot, as we strive for fair and equitable workplace practices.
Systemic Challenges and Inequities
We delved into the intricacies of organizational barriers, including the frustration around the lack of understanding regarding the lack of progression for certain demographics. Pamela highlighted the systemic issues within the NHS, shedding light on the complexities of recruitment, retention, and promotion data. Uncovering the root causes of inequities and addressing systemic challenges emerged as a crucial focus, echoing our commitment to fostering a more inclusive and equitable society.
The Impact of Language and Bias
Our conversation went beyond workplace dynamics, delving into the societal impact of dehumanizing language and biases, particularly in the context of Brexit and its effects on diverse groups. We also highlighted the importance of addressing the career progression of white working-class boys, underscoring the need for inclusivity efforts to encompass a broader spectrum of experiences and backgrounds.
Striving for Fairness in Society
Pamela and I took a deep dive into the broader societal implications of striving for fairness, including wealth distribution, universal basic income, and the government's encouragement for a return to office work. The intersection of remote work with infrastructure and unemployment, as well as the transportation barriers affecting workforce diversity and retention, further fuelled our exploration of fairness in society.
Inclusivity in Work Culture and Social Events
From inclusive work cultures to social events, our dialogue underscored the significance of catering to diverse needs and preferences, whether related to alcohol consumption, dietary choices, or non-inclusive environments. Pamela and I emphasised the importance of inclusive social gatherings and cultural conversations that consider varying preferences and dietary requirements, shedding light on the need for greater inclusivity in all aspects of professional and social interactions.
Conclusion:
Our conversation with Pamela Permalloo Bass has been truly enlightening, delving into the multifaceted dimensions of fairness, equity, and inclusion. From the impact of remote work on society to systemic challenges and societal implications, our exploration encompassed a wide spectrum of crucial topics. As we continue to strive for a fair and inclusive society, our dialogue serves as a testament to the ongoing conversations and efforts towards fostering a more equitable and inclusive world.
Slogans and Image Prompts
Slogan: "Striving for Fairness"
AI image generation prompt: Create a bold, eye-catching image of two hands reaching towards each other, symbolising unity and inclusivity. The background should feature a diverse mix of people, emphasising the importance of fairness and equality in the workplace and society.
Soundbite/Hashtag: #InclusionMatters
AI image generation prompt: Design a vibrant, mosaic-style artwork incorporating diverse symbols and elements representing various cultures, genders, and abilities. This should evoke a sense of unity and celebration of diversity, with the hashtag prominently displayed as a unifying message.
Quote: "Creating a Culture of Inclusion"
AI image generation prompt: Generate an artistic depiction of a tree with its roots spreading out to form the word "inclusion" in various languages. Each branch of the tree should represent a different aspect of diversity, such as race, gender, age, and ability, with vibrant colours and intricate details to symbolise the richness of inclusive cultures.
Slogan: "Fairness for All"
AI image generation prompt: Illustrate a powerful design featuring a scale balancing various symbols representing diversity, equity, and opportunity. Incorporate a dynamic colour palette and bold typography to convey the message of fair treatment and equal opportunities for everyone.
Soundbite: "Embracing Diversity, Advancing Equity"
AI image generation prompt: Create an engaging graphic showcasing a diverse group of individuals standing together in solidarity, with empowering visuals and text that reflect the message of embracing diversity and striving for equity. The imagery should convey strength, unity, and progress.
Quote: "Inclusive Minds, Equitable Futures"
AI image generation prompt: Design an inspiring visual composition depicting a globe surrounded by diverse hands holding up words like "inclusion," "equity," and "diversity." Incorporate dynamic textures and colours to convey a sense of global unity and a shared vision for a more inclusive and equitable future.
These slogans, soundbites, and quotes can be visually translated into merchandise designs that effectively communicate the podcast's message of fairness, inclusion, and equity, using AI-powered image generation to create compelling and impactful visuals.
Inclusion Bites Spotlight
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, host Joanne Lockwood engages in a compelling conversation with Pamela Permalloo Bass, an EDI coach and consultant. Together, they delve into the crucial topic of fairness and equity in both the business world and within organisations, addressing pertinent issues within the NHS.
Pamela brings a wealth of experience and insight to the table, shedding light on systemic challenges within the NHS and issues of unfairness and inequity in recruitment, retention, and promotion. Their discussion extends beyond the confines of the workplace, encompassing societal inequities, political language, and their impact on public services.
Their conversation does not shy away from addressing the psychological impact of dehumanizing language and biases, particularly in the context of Brexit and its effect on white working-class groups. Their engaging dialogue highlights the pressing need for diversity and inclusion efforts within organisations to pay attention to the career progression of white working-class boys, an often overlooked area in the broader EDI landscape.
Joanne and Pamela stress the importance of understanding and addressing individual needs in decision-making, challenging stereotypes and blanket assumptions. The episode explores the complexities of striving for fairness and equality in society, touching upon the work of Rutger Bregman and his advocacy for universal basic income.
As the episode progresses, they delve into the impact of remote work on infrastructure, societal contributions at local levels, and the varied factors affecting workforce diversity and retention. Joanne and Pamela navigate through the nuances of equity in the EDI space, acknowledging the need to amplify certain demographics without pulling others back.
Their engaging conversation also extends to the importance of inclusive work cultures and social events, catering to diverse needs and preferences such as dietary choices and alcohol-free options.
Subscribe to The Inclusion Bites Podcast now to join Joanne Lockwood and her guests in thought-provoking conversations around inclusion, belonging, and making the world a better place.
What do you think they would find interesting about this spotlight piece?
10 Question Quiz
Question 1: What does Joanne Lockwood emphasize as a key factor in addressing issues of discrimination and ensuring fair treatment for all employees?
A) Technological efficiency
B) Cultural engagement
C) Trust in organisations
D) In-person mentorship
Question 2: Which author and their books are mentioned in the conversation as addressing the concept of striving for fairness and equality in society?
A) Yuval Noah Harari - Sapiens and Homo Deus
B) Amartya Sen - Development as Freedom
C) Rutger Bregman - Utopia for Realists and Human Kind
D) Angela Saini - Superior and Inferior
Question 3: According to Joanna Lockwood, what is essential to consider for workforce diversity and retention?
A) Transport barriers
B) Government policies
C) Company culture
D) Remote working
Question 4: What societal impact of remote work is discussed in the conversation?
A) Increase in productivity
B) Unemployment
C) Impact on infrastructure
D) Decrease in economic viability
Question 5: What does Pamela Permalloo Bass highlight as a potential barrier preventing desired individuals from working at certain locations?
A) Wealth distribution
B) Public transport costs
C) Government incentives
D) Remote work infrastructure
Question 6: According to the conversation, what analogy does Joanne Lockwood use to illustrate the systemic processes of an organisation?
A) Coffee stain on an aeroplane tray table
B) Puzzle pieces coming together
C) Jigsaw puzzle
D) Domino effect
Question 7: What is emphasised as important in creating more inclusive work cultures and social events, as mentioned in the conversation?
A) Alcohol-centered events
B) Lack of dietary options
C) Catering to different dietary preferences and needs
D) Traditional food choices
Question 8: Based on the conversation, what barriers to fair and equitable society are highlighted?
A) Wealth distribution
B) Edible arrangements
C) Wage equality
D) Career progression
Question 9: What did Joanne Lockwood acknowledge as an area that needs more attention in diversity and inclusion efforts within organisations?
A) Women in leadership
B) White working-class boys and their career progression
C) Ethnic diversity
D) Disability representation
Question 10: What does Pamela Permalloo Bass highlight as inconsistency in organisations' commitment to equity and inclusion?
A) Lack of training programs
B) Diversity in leadership
C) Wealth distribution within the company
D) Data analysis of recruitment, retention, and promotion
Answer Key:
C) Trust in organisations - In the podcast, Joanne Lockwood discusses the significance of trust in organisations, particularly in addressing issues of discrimination and ensuring fair treatment for all employees.
C) Rutger Bregman - Utopia for Realists and Human Kind - The conversation mentions Rutger Bregman and his books addressing the concept of striving for fairness and equality in society.
A) Transport barriers - According to the conversation, transport barriers can prevent desired individuals from working at certain locations, emphasising the importance of considering this for workforce diversity and retention.
C) Impact on infrastructure - The societal impact of remote work on infrastructure is discussed in the conversation, highlighting the need to consider this aspect.
B) Public transport costs - Pamela Permalloo Bass highlights public transport costs as a potential barrier preventing desired individuals from working at certain locations.
A) Coffee stain on an aeroplane tray table - Joanne Lockwood uses the analogy of a coffee stain on an aeroplane tray table to illustrate the systemic processes of an organisation.
C) Catering to different dietary preferences and needs - The conversation emphasizes the importance of catering to different dietary preferences and needs in creating more inclusive work cultures and social events.
A) Wealth distribution - Based on the conversation, barriers to fair and equitable society include wealth distribution, highlighting the impact of wealth on fairness and equity.
B) White working-class boys and their career progression - Joanne Lockwood acknowledges this as an area that needs more attention in diversity and inclusion efforts within organizations.
D) Data analysis of recruitment, retention, and promotion - Pamela Permalloo Bass highlights inconsistency in organisations' commitment to equity and inclusion through data analysis of recruitment, retention, and promotion.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood and Pamela Permalloo Bass discuss the importance of trust in organisations, the impact of transport barriers on workforce diversity, the societal implications of remote work, and the need to cater to different dietary preferences and needs. The conversation also raises awareness about the barriers to fair and equitable society, including wealth distribution, and highlights areas that require more attention in diversity and inclusion efforts within organisations.
{Episode Summary} with Intro, Key Points and a Takeaway
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, host Joanne Lockwood invites Pamela Permalloo Bass to delve into the complex landscape of fairness, equity, and systemic challenges within businesses and organisations, with a specific focus on the NHS. They examine the dichotomy of fairness against societal, cultural, and systemic backdrops, highlighting the various layers of striving for equity in today's world.
Pamela Permalloo Bass is an EDI (Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion) coach and consultant with extensive experience in navigating the intricacies of fairness in the workplace and broader society. With a deep understanding of EDI complexities, Pamela provides invaluable insights into the challenges and opportunities for creating more inclusive, equitable environments and systems.
Throughout the discussion, Joanne and Pamela tackle key facets of striving for fairness, including the impact of wealth distribution, the need to address systemic challenges in the EDI sector, and the importance of uncovering the true story of inequities. They also touch upon societal inequity and the impact of remote work on infrastructure and unemployment, informing a holistic understanding of current societal challenges.
A vital takeaway from this episode is the imperative to uncover and address systemic challenges to promote fairness and equity in all domains of life, particularly within professional landscapes. Listeners will gain a profound understanding of the multifaceted nature of striving for fairness, inspiring them to reflect on the personal and societal implications of equity and inclusion.
This episode brings to light the critical importance of creating a more inclusive and equitable world, with practical insights and thought-provoking discussions that will inspire listeners to take action in their own spheres of influence.
To gain a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding fairness and equity, tune in to this insightful episode and become a part of the ongoing conversation on inclusion in our ever-changing societal landscape. Subscribe today and join the community of change-makers striving for a fairer, more inclusive world.
About this Episode
About The Episode:
In an engaging dialogue with Pamela Permalloo Bass, we delve into the nuanced landscape of fairness within the workplace and wider society. Pamela brings her expertise as an EDI coach and consultant to explore systemic challenges and the pursuit of equity in organisational culture. This episode unpacks the complexities of building inclusive environments, addresses stereotypes, and encourages greater empathy in our approaches to diversity and inclusion.
Today, we'll cover:
The evolving dynamic of business premises and its consequent impact on various job roles, highlighting the changing nature of workspaces.
Innovative ways to enhance efficiency and collaboration through technology while dismantling conventional office culture assumptions.
The importance of addressing the inequity between roles that can and cannot be done remotely, respecting the physical presence some jobs necessitate.
How early and mid-career individuals can benefit from a hybrid model of remote and in-person engagements for learning and mentorship.
Understanding the diverse dimensions of fairness, trust, and meritocracy in the context of cultural, societal, and social experiences.
Strategies to combat systemic discrimination and ensure equitable treatment and opportunities within organisations.
The role of leadership in aligning workforce demographics with local communities and addressing infrastructure challenges related to remote work.
Rhyme Scheme and Rhythm Podcast Poetry
Title: The Strive for True Fairness
In buildings deserted, silent halls echo,
As remote work thrives, the urban pulse slow.
Yet communities yearn for support to grow,
In café corners where free spirits flow.
Metaverse marvels, where avatars roam,
And screens bright with faces from the comfort of home.
The office, once needed, now a relic dethroned,
In cozy abodes, new work cultures are sown.
The fledgling career path needs guidance to steer,
A blend of the distant and those we hold near.
Yet not all may wander in virtual spheres,
For some, their presence, essential and clear.
Stereotypes shatter like fragile glass panes,
For each is unique, with distinct dreams and aims.
The rank unfair systems, with deep-rooted chains,
We decode their riddles and expose their games.
In hospital halls where fairness should reign,
Complexities knot like a stubborn bloodstain.
The data unveils stories of strain,
Where equity's lost, there's more to gain.
Language dehumanizes, it can exclude or embrace,
Consider the weight of the words that you chase.
For inclusivity demands a dignified space,
Beyond the divisions of culture and race.
Workplace traditions, like dregs in a cup,
Fail to consider who's showing up.
From the glasses we clink to the food we sup,
Let's fill every table where none are shut up.
For fairness is not just the equal of shares,
But lifting the voices of those caught in snares.
While some argue wealth, and others debate cares,
Let's aim to be kind, as humanity dares.
Think of those barred by a costly commute,
Their absence, a silence, resoundingly mute.
Is progress a chance, or systems refute?
The fight for what's fair is no mere pursuit.
Consider the marks that we leave on the slate,
As we strive for a world that's both kind and great.
Subscribe and join in - let's not hesitate,
Share thoughts and contend with the stale hand of fate.
With thanks to Pamela Permalloo Bass for a fascinating podcast episode.
Key Learnings
Key Learning and Takeaway:
In the quest for inclusion and equity within organisations, it's paramount to challenge existing systems and biases that perpetuate unfairness. Understanding and accommodating individual needs, embracing both remote and in-person engagement for professional development, and countering stereotypes are all crucial steps towards fostering a fair and equitable workplace. Ensuring alignment between organisations' workforce demographics and their local community while considering barriers such as transportation costs demonstrates a commitment to true equity.
Point #1:
Rethinking Workspaces for Inclusion: As physical offices become less occupied, we must be creative in supporting economic ecosystems. Small gestures like patronising local cafes can make a significant impact. This represents a shift towards a community-centric economy that values and supports all members.
Point #2:
Integrating Technology with Tradition for Growth: Utilising technology such as AI and virtual platforms can foster collaboration and inclusion. However, recognizing the value of in-person mentorship, particularly for those early in their careers, suggests a balanced approach is necessary for holistic professional development.
Point #3:
Combating Stereotypes and Blanket Assumptions: Each individual's needs must be considered in organisational decision-making to combat systemic unfairness. Stereotypes overlook the nuanced realities of diverse workforces, highlighting the importance of personalised approaches to truly achieve equity.
Point #4:
Addressing Economic and Societal Impacts of Remote Work: While remote work has proven beneficial for many, the consequences for individuals in roles that require a physical presence, and the wider societal impact on unemployment and public services, need careful consideration. Strategies must be put in place to support and sustain the diverse economic needs of all stakeholders.
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